Join us as we launch our newest series, Second-Act Significance, on April 5. It’s a nine-part collection of conversations with guests who have gone from dead ends to new beginnings in their lives and careers. If you’ve ever felt like you were made to pursue and achieve more, to tackle something different that brings your heart alive and benefits others, to use your crucible as a launching pad to a life of fresh significance, you won’t want to miss a single episode.
It’s easy to feel discouraged these days. War has broken out in Ukraine, the COVID pandemic is weakened but not gone and our economy continues to struggle. That’s the challenging news. The hopeful news is that the time has never been better to do our part to help each other weather the storms we’re experiencing. And the best place to begin doing that is by encouraging each other. This week, host Warwick Fairfax and cohost Gary Schneeberger discuss the impact and practice of encouragement. You’ll learn the seven key steps to becoming a master encourager, from paying attention to being specific, from giving positive feedback often to always making sure it’s sincere.
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible, I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership. I really believe that encouragement can change the world. I mean, we live in a world that's divided, there's war on as we speak, division, discouragement, fear, uncertainty, but when you encourage somebody else and they in turn encourage others and you have encouragement spreading like water spreading out on dry land, you'll see grass growing, flowers blooming. It makes a tremendous difference if we had everybody think, "Okay, what can I encourage somebody today in?" It would encourage people to bounce back more.
Gary S:
The world just described is not a utopia, it's a reality we can all create by becoming intentional about offering one of the most effective antidotes to staying stuck in our crucible experiences, giving and receiving encouragement. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. This week, Warwick and I discuss his new blog on the impact and practice of encouragement. You'll learn the seven key steps to becoming a master encourager from paying attention to being specific, from getting positive feedback often to always making sure it's sincere. I even get the chance to shock Warwick with the results of a study that found for every one criticism you tell someone, you need to counterbalance it with ... Well, you'll have to listen to find out what that number is. You just might be shocked by it too.
Gary S:
One of the things I'm going to love about this conversation as it unfolds is that, it works on two tracks. There's professional kinds of encouragement as a leader, as a teammate, in the workplace, and then there's also personal kinds of encouragement. The principles behind them are the same, but we get to explore our business leadership muscle here, Warwick, as well as our self-help muscle here. Explain a little bit about, as we get started, why you chose encouragement as the topic you wanted to focus on in our dialogue discussion?
Warwick F:
We live in this world where it's paradoxical that, if ever there was a need for encouragement, it's right now, but because of the stress produced by understandable fear and division and war, it's hard to find the actual mental and emotional energy to actually encourage. So we need it a lot, but it's hard to find it in these sorts of circumstances.
Gary S:
This is a circle of life issue. Right? I mean, as you give encouragement, that then can flow back to you to receive encouragement, sometimes you get encouragement from giving others encouragement. The reaction of someone that you encouraged, the improved either relationship, if it's personal or performance, if it's professional, that then encourages you. So I think, to use one of your favorite analogies, it's a flywheel of sorts. As you encourage you get encouraged. Right?
Warwick F:
It's really true. It's one of my highest failures as we'll get into, I really try to encourage, and as I encourage people and I see them feel encouraged and their spirit lighten a bit, it makes me feel good. One of the things we say on Beyond the Crucible all the time is, we probably say this every single podcast, If today is your worst day, you're at the bottom of the pit. Yeah, there is obviously some lessons about how you get out of the pit, understanding your design, learn the lessons from your crucible and so forth.
Warwick F:
But part of it is, as you have a vision that's focused on others, when you focused on others, it just gives you this feeling like you're doing something worthwhile, you feel better about yourself, you feel encouraged because we were designed as humans to think of others and help others and serve others in the altruistic sense of that word.
Warwick F:
So, it really follows from that same philosophy, is we were designed as we think of others, part of that is encourage them. You can argue with how we're designed by the designer, whoever that is, but we are designed in a way that when we encourage, we will tend to feel encouraged ourselves, and better about ourselves just because we're encouraging others. It's part of our human design that we can't alter. It's just the way we are.
Gary S:
Right. I hadn't thought about it before. I've heard you say, I've said myself, scores, dozens, hundreds of times, a life of significance is a life lived on purpose dedicated to serving others. One of the ways that you serve others, we think of maybe more active, we're running a soup kitchen we're ... But encouragement is a way to serve others as you just pointed out. That's not the easiest, but one that we can all do any day, every day, if we're paying attention, that seems to be like a good entry point as you're looking for a life dedicated serving others. It's a good place to start. Isn't it?
Warwick F:
It is. I mean, one thought as I've been thinking about it is, it all starts with how you look at life. For instance, one of the things we say all the time on Beyond the Crucible is, today could be your worst day, you might have suffered through physical tragedy, abuse, financial loss. It could be your fault, not your fault. Like in case of my financial failure was largely my fault, but you have a choice in life. Are you going to say, "This was unfair, I'm just going to hide under the covers for the next 30, 40, 50 years till all ends?"
Warwick F:
So, in a similar way with encouragement, whether you feel like it or not, whether you feel, "Boy, today has not been a good day, I had a really tough time at work. There's family issues, kids issues, maybe my kids' grades at school aren't that good. Maybe my son or daughter got cut from the team." Bad stuff happens every day, at times, it feels like. So there's always reasons to just feel, "Oh, whoa is me." And just feel down, and I get it. That's real. I don't at all minimize that.
Warwick F:
But part of it really is a choice. "Okay, I know today isn't good, but I'm going to have an attitude that I'm going to try and be grateful for what I can, attitude of gratitude as others have said, but I'm also going to try and have an attitude of encouragement." So, it really partly ... Are you going to look at the glass half empty half full? Part of it is just a way of being, a life philosophy, a set of values that you're saying, "Okay, irrespective of how tough life is or isn't, I'm going to have an attitude where I'm going to try and be grateful and I'm going to try to serve others, certainly in this way of encouraging them."
Warwick F:
So you've got to plant that flag in the ground and say, "I am going to do this. I'm going to choose to try and have an encouraging spirit." It's the foundational choice. It's like that choice in the pit, am I going to be overwhelmed by my crucible, or am I going to choose to try to come back from it, as difficult it is? Am I going to choose to try and be encouraging, or am I going to just have an attitude of life is unfair, it sucks, and I'm just going to be angry and frustrated? That's the only emotion I'm going to think of, anger and frustration. I'm not going to be grateful, I'm not going to try and encourage anybody." So really, you got to make a life philosophy choice. That's really probably almost the underpinning to the points we're about to discuss.
Gary S:
Before we get into the content of the blog, I want to level set us with a quote I pulled from a Harvard Business Review article about the importance of encouragement. It says this, "A recent study from McKinsey & Company ..." This article was published just in November of last year, "found that although most employers believe that the large number of people who quit their jobs this year were looking for better compensation, the truth is, most were leaving because they didn't feel valued and lacked a sense of belonging at work."
Gary S:
Another study found that receiving more frequent appreciation from our colleagues and managers, doesn't only make us feel respected, it's also linked to better performance. So there's a bottom line reason to do this in a professional context. And I'd argue a bottom line reason to do this in a different sense of a bottom line in relationships because they build stronger relationships, and that is a very helpful thing.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I think that's such a good point, Gary, that you raised. That's really, really excellent. Yeah. I'm familiar with studies that basically show, whether you are lower management, middle management, wherever you are in your organization, everybody wants to be compensated fairly. That's a given. You want to feel like you're being paid fairly for the work you perform. But once you achieve that, "Yeah, okay. I'm getting paid what other people get paid in my industry. Okay, great, that's the foundation." That is certainly necessary, but it's not sufficient to make you happy at work.
Warwick F:
People beyond getting paid fairly, beyond that, that's not really motivating. It's sufficient, but it's not a motivator in the general sense of the word. So, most people leave work because they don't get on with their boss, and maybe their boss is not encouraging them, criticizing them. No matter what they do, it's always wrong. They may be out of tune with the values of the organization. To your point, I'm sure it's the case, that if your boss encourages you, values you, tells others, "Hey, Jim or Mary's doing a phenomenal job." That will not only make you feel encouraged, you will work harder, probably longer hours, more effectively, more productively. It makes just good business sense in addition to moral sense. So you're right.
Warwick F:
The power of that is absolutely paramount. People that think, for your average person, it's all about money, it really is not. Beyond getting paid fairly, they want a whole lot more than that. They want to feel like what they do matters and they want to feel like their boss appreciates them and encourages them. It's critical. In today's world where people are very mobile, you lose people in a heartbeat if you don't appreciate them.
Gary S:
Right. And that's why, listener, we're doing this podcast, and Warwick wrote his most recent blog on the power of encouragement and the patterns of encouragement, how you can do it. You'd think that Warwick loves the number seven, because his blogs almost always have seven points. The last one had eight, which surprised me, but he has seven points of how you can go about offering encouragement. And again, from my perspective, these apply in the workplace for sure, but they also apply in relationships.
Gary S:
But the first one, Warwick, that you talk about in your blog, and that we're going to talk about here is to pay attention, which seems counterintuitive. I chuckled there because it's like, "Okay, it seems rudimentary." But, nothing happens for your encouragement of others if you're not paying attention. Right?
Warwick F:
So it's this attitude of, "I'm going to pay attention and I'm going to look for opportunities to be encouraging. I'm going to have my radar up, my ears open, my eyes open. I'm going to look to be open and aware so that if something happens, I am not going to miss it." It's critical.
Gary S:
I'm glad you took it to the place I was talking about in terms of family relationships, because I wanted to share one of the things that my wife, Kelly and I do, and we have done for the last three or four years. It's a jar, it's an enormous Mason jar. Look how big it is compared to my head. It's an enormous Mason jar, and inside of the jar are three by five cards. What we do is, we keep blank three by five cards around the house. Then as we catch one another, right, doing something nice, doing something kind, and we want to encourage the other, we'll write them down, we'll date them and write them down for the entire year.
Gary S:
On January 1st of the next year, we'll pull these things out and these. It's jammed to the top full of these things. It takes us almost two hours some years to go through all of those notes of, "Hey, thank you for doing this. Wow, I was really impressed when you did this. You're such a good mom or stepdad or whatever that is that we talk about." It's really a beautiful time. Knowing that that jar is there, does fuel exactly what you're talking about, catching each other doing something good, but also doing something well, doing something that you appreciate about them and being able to express that.
Gary S:
And that doesn't mean that we don't talk to each other about things that ... We don't encourage each other 365 days out of the year, we only do it on the first of the year. It's just a secondary way, and it's a way to make sure we keep those things top of mind. I even carry three by five cards with me when I travel, so I don't miss moments when I'm away from home to then come back and stick those in the Mason jar.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Gary, I think that's just incredible. I think that would be really worthy of doing, listeners. So, you might want to do exactly what Gary and Kelly do. Just write down some three by five cards. I think really the larger point you're getting to, which I think is important, I mean, for me, it's one of my highest values. I don't want to say I do it like breathing the little bit, just because it's ... Yeah, I'm just so focused on, it's such an important thing for me. I think, find a mechanism, a rhythm. Gary's mentioned one good rhythm, one of the things that we do, again, you don't have to do this, and Gary's one is brilliant.
Warwick F:
I think I've mentioned on this podcast before, one of the things we do at birthdays or Mother's Day or Father's Day is we go around the table, three kids, adults now, from 30 down to 20s, and will say youngest to oldest, what do we most admire about that person? Now, two out of my three kids are writers. So they'll do the same thing on their cards. And since they're writers, when it's about you, there's like paragraphs and detailed praise with points and...
Gary S:
Subsection two. Yeah.
Warwick F:
Exactly. It's, "Oh my gosh."
Gary S:
Footnotes.
Warwick F:
Exactly, exactly. Pretty much. Sometimes they roll their eyes or whatever a little bit and not too much, but it's like, "Here we go." But that's just amazing. You got cards for years and you just remember some of the themes like, "Hey dad, you're always there at my birthday, at my tennis or soccer or dance recital, what have you." That's what we do. I mean, Gary's is fantastic. That just feels like that's the platinum gold style level way of encouraging by putting cards down, in addition to doing it during the day, but listener, you figure out your own mechanisms, you don't have to have a mechanism.
Warwick F:
But like a lot of things in life, sometimes mechanisms help a characteristic that you want to be like muscle memory. It helps to train the muscles in that. So I think mechanisms like that, especially Gary's, I think, is a fantastic idea.
Gary S:
Which leads us logically to the second point. And this is what I love about these conversations, Warwick, and the blogs that you write that fuel them is that, the points stick together like a stepping stone. Right? First step number one, pay attention. Okay, you're doing that, then what comes after that? Point number two in your blog in our conversation now is, if you see something, say something. Again, seems a little self-evident, but really in the workday world of how busy things are, that can get past us. Right?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. We all have our sayings. This may be close to the number one thing that I say, number one mantra, if you will, if you see something, say something. By that I mean, if you see something positive, say something. We'll talk about the negative is not quite so, you don't always say something just because you see something negative, that you have to think pretty hard about, "Should I say something when ..." That's a whole nother discussion, another podcast. But let's assume that you have this attitude of gratitude, attitude of thankfulness, glass half full, you've got that mindset, you're paying attention.
Warwick F:
So once you're paying attention, it may not be a freight train, it might be just this gentle breeze for the trees. When you see something, then say something. I can't tell you how many meetings, whether it's ... I'm on two nonprofit boards, board meetings, meetings with different teams, family. Sometimes you can see on people's eyes that they're thankful, but they're not saying anything. Again, I'm not trying to throw any organization under the bus, but in a couple of nonprofit boards I've been on, there are times in which, whether it's the head of the organization or sometimes one of the heads of a department, will come to the board and give a presentation, and you'll be thinking, "Wow, this man, this woman is doing a phenomenal job. Wow."
Warwick F:
Now, how much will they value the board of the whole organization saying this is great, like a lot. Praise from the boss is great, praise from the board, that's another level, at least from their perspective. It doesn't mean we're more or less important. It's just more how it works. So, sometimes people will be wrapped up in what's the next steps, how can we improve on this, how does this report jive with other things I've heard?
Warwick F:
You're thinking about all these analytical things you're thinking of, which is great, but rather than say, "Wow, Fred, Mary, that was fantastic. What you're doing here in this ministry or in this part of the organization, it's fantastic." I'm not against anybody, it's just human nature. You get preoccupied with your own thoughts and you're thinking all these positive thoughts, but you're not saying anything.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
It's just human nature, people aren't used to encouraging. It's just not a normal thing that people do. So they're thinking these positive thoughts, but it's like, just because you're thinking of it, how in the world is a person meant to know? They're meant to be a mind reader? How are they meant to know that you are thinking positive thoughts towards them, unless you open your mouth? There's no way they're going to know. I mean, they can't figure it out by osmosis, by ESP or mind meld or mind reading. I mean, it doesn't work that way.
Gary S:
And the other thing then that comes from that, if you see something, say something, the something that you say you make in point three of your blog is, be specific. And that to me is extraordinarily important because, like most things in life, the more detail you offer, the more beneficial what you have to say is.
Gary S:
If you see those movies where someone's on a plane and some emergency happens and a passenger has to fly the plane. Right? They've got to be very specific when they get on with their control booth tower and they tell them how to fly. They got to tell them how to do it, they got to be specific. Being specific allows people to really understand what the encouragement is for, and I think then, it fuels more of that behavior as you call it out. Right?
Warwick F:
Absolutely, very well said. It's one thing to say back to the boardroom examples, somebody comes in and says, "Hey, great job." That's better than nothing. That's okay. I think another example, I'm an elder at my church, evangelical, 2,000-odd person church in Maryland. So, often the pastors we have who preach, pretty much always do a great job. Sometimes somebody say, "Hey pastor, great sermon." Okay. How often do they say why? Sometimes it's like, "Okay, what's that mean?" I mean, thank you, it's better than bad sermon. It's a step on the road. It wasn't like it sucks or I'm leaving or see you. I mean, I guess there are worse feedback.
Warwick F:
But what I always try and do, whether it's a sermon or I'm on a board or just with other people, I try to be specific. Back to the example of when we go around birthdays and I'm trying to give encouragement and praise to my kids and my wife, I will say, "Hey, I know life has been tough, but you've really been persistent. It's great you got that job. Boy, I admire the fact that, when you're in that job, you can set and forget, you're reliable. You don't miss anything, you're dependable. And that kind of character is really impressive." I mean, I try to be very specific. Certainly, in every case, but you better believe with my family.
Warwick F:
So, it's one thing to say, like a boss comes by and says, "Hey, that was great." "Okay. Well, what's that mean?" Or yeah, "you're a nice person." "Okay. What's that mean? How nice?" "Well, you're kind, you're compassionate, you're forgiving. You're always thinking of others." "Okay, now I get an idea of what you mean by nice person." It's better than nothing. But if you want to go from entry level passing grade to A triple plus, be specific. It makes a massive difference, because one can seem perfunctory. Okay. They really mean it. Just saying it because ...
Warwick F:
Being specific is absolutely critical and it shouldn't be that hard because if you're thinking nice job or you're a nice person, there's got to be a reason behind it. It's not like, "Oh, I don't know why I think you're a nice person." Be like you with Kelly. I don't know why I was encouraged by what you did today, I have no clue, but I'm just going to say thank you, Kelly. Of course, there's a very specific idea of why you appreciate it in that moment. Right? It's not like there's amorphous good feelings.
Gary S:
Right. Exactly.
Warwick F:
Right?
Gary S:
Yep. So you said there's a triple A plus way to do it. I'm going to add some extra credit because I think on this point in particular, on this idea of being specific, I think one of the best ways to do that, and you talked about it a little bit earlier when you talked about giving cards to your family at birthdays where you write things down. I think there's power, especially when it comes to being specific in a note, a written note, and I found another HBR article that talks about the power of written communications versus verbal communications. And here's a couple of paragraphs from that article.
Gary S:
"Handwritten notes mean more because they cost more, emails, tweets, texts, or Facebook messages are essentially costless. They're easy to write and free to send. And you and I produce hundreds of them every day. A recent study indicated the average corporate email account sent or received more than 100 emails per day, and Americans between the ages of 18 and 29 now send or receive nearly 100 texts per day. These electronic communications are rarely notable, but handwritten notes are unusual. They take minutes or hours to draft, each word carefully chosen, no undo or auto correct to fall back on.
Gary S:
Drafting one involves selecting stationary, paying for stamps and visiting a mailbox. They indicate investment, and that very costliness indicates value." This next part blows me away. "If as the US Postal Service notes, we only receive a handwritten letter once every two months. Each of those letters likely means more to us than the cheaper communications we receive each day."
Warwick F:
Boy, it's so true. I must confess, I don't always do that, like breathing. There's always another level that all of us can reach. But yeah, there's no question at the very least, I think all of us can send birthday cards, Father's and Mother's Day cards to our loved ones. I mean, that's something and rather than just ...
Warwick F:
And it's okay. You can say, "Well, I got this great Hallmark card" or whatever it is, and the words can be pretty good in there, if not wonderful, and that's fine. But how about taking an extra few minutes and writing a few sentences about why you appreciate them? So that's like, it's better to send a card to your loved one or a friend, it's better than doing nothing, and a card is better than an email, it's better than a text. So that's good. You're already along the way to what you're saying, but being more specific in that card of why you love them or admire them, that's the next level.
Warwick F:
So if you're going to do a card, and what Gary's talking about, handwritten note, boy, I don't know if it's another level beyond a card, it probably is. That's rarely will you receive a handwritten note. And yes, if you can find some nice station, that's extra credit. We live in this world where it's like nobody writes letters these days. I mean, it's just so rare. But you're right, it's so valuable.
Gary S:
The next point in your blog and in our conversation, point number four, is to tell others. What do you mean by that? Tell others. So we're encouraging people but telling others. How does that work and why is that important?
Warwick F:
So, it's funny. One of the things we're often told is don't gossip about other people. If you've got something to say to somebody, find a way, hopefully, tactfully without throwing hand grenades, talk to them about whatever the issue you have with them or whatever the thing is. But don't gossip behind their back and say, "Oh, Susie, John, boy, they're really ... Stuff never gets done, and they stab people in the back and they're just awful people." On and on you go. But here we talked about, if you see something, say something.
Warwick F:
If you have this positive attitude, obviously you want to start with telling them. But telling other people about them, that can be powerful. So let's say you're a coworker with somebody and you're in a meeting with their boss and somehow it's relevant. I mean, even if it's not relevant, it's like, "John, Sue, boy, they're ..." Maybe you head up a different department. Maybe you're a peer with their boss. "They really, really bailed me out in marketing. They did some extra research and stuff on the product, gave me what I needed, and it was last minute because the customer just at the very last moment said they wanted a change in the order. Boy, they just went out of their way to help me, and that just made a huge difference."
Warwick F:
What do you think that person's going to think? Thank you so much, you just told my boss. I mean, wow. So, whether it's in a family's situation, if you're thinking positively about your husband or wife, it's okay to tell the kids, "Boy, you're really lucky to have the mom or dad that you have, whatever it is, because they just did A and B." It can work with siblings, it can work with all relations. Then with that other person, they're not just getting encouraged by you, but it's like, "Hey, I heard John was telling a friend of mine that ... or you were telling a friend of mine how good a job I was doing or how nice a person I am. Wow."
Warwick F:
Even if they don't know where it originally came from, you might have a whole bunch of people just saying, "Gosh, I've had six people just this week say what a fantastic job you're doing. It's amazing." What does that do to that person? So, you want to be ... We talk about the flywheel. You want this to be a bit like a flywheel or a forest fire and you light a match and there's this ground swell of encouragement that comes from so many different sources. So in this case, gossip is one thing when it's negative, but telling others when it's positive, of course, the person would love you to tell others if it's true.
Warwick F:
So, you've got to have this attitude of, try to praise people, not just to their face, sounds weird, but behind their back to people that know them. Because that is, they will like that. So, it's not an either/or, praise them to their face, be specific, but also tell others and be specific. People that know them, that is just huge. It creates this atmosphere of encouragement.
Gary S:
The rule I've always had as a leader is correct in private, praise in public. If you've got something that you want to tell someone who works for you or with you, again, something that shows appreciation and encouragement as publicly as you can do that, the better, because their coworkers and friends are going to hear the boss say X, Y, and Z about them, and that, again, motivates folks to do better.
Gary S:
I want to level set us here as we're more than halfway through your seven points, that we're talking about all of these things, right, in the context of Beyond the Crucible, in the context of crucible experiences. I mean, what would you say, Warwick, to specifically why encouragement is important in the context of maybe someone who's going through a crucible, someone who's been through one and is trying to bounce back from one, why is this topic of encouragement something that we're talking about on this show?
Warwick F:
It's an excellent question, Gary. I think as we often say, today is the worst day, you're in the pit, you might feel like life is over, and we've heard a number of guests on the podcast who've been at a point in their life where they feel literally worthless. Some have felt so bad about it, they've even contemplated suicide. I mean, there's real depth to feeling this worthless. I'm a waste of space. I didn't have suicidal thoughts, but I certainly went through a time after I failed $2.25 billion takeover, sort of this thought that everything I touch I ruin or destroy. I mean, it's like, "Look what I did." I mean, gosh, I was feeling relatively worthless myself.
Warwick F:
So, when you can encourage somebody and say, "Look, I know what you went through was awful. I know you made a big mistake or I know what was done to you is unspeakable, but you are worth something, you are worthwhile. You're a good person, you are kind, you are smart, you're intelligent. You have a lot of capacity." And be specific. I heard somebody the other day say, "Boy, they're tinkerer, they tinker around with things. They build things out of nothing. They have this really mechanical, creative side, or maybe others they're a good writer or a good musician." Whatever it is. When they're feeling so worthless, when you're encouraging them to say, "You know what? You are worth something, don't let what happened to you destroy you. I care about you. You are worthwhile."
Warwick F:
If all that does is help them get their toe out of bed the next day and put one step forward, that's huge. So, encouragement can really make a difference between people choosing to get out of bed and choosing to say like, "I'm going to be angry for the rest of my life." They can literally, I wouldn't say save them, but be part of the process of helping them come back and leading a worthwhile life. So yeah, absolutely, encouragement. If ever there's a time you need encouragement, it's when you're at the bottom of that pit. That's when encouragement's just like this lifeline. It's absolutely huge.
Gary S:
And point number five in your blog and in our conversation is that, there's not like a cap on how many times you can do this. You don't have like, "Oh, I can only do it three times a day or I can only do it to this person once every month." It's not like that. So your fifth point is give positive feedback often. Why is that critical?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. This isn't a one and done kind of thing. Okay, I gave my a coworker or my employee on my team, one positive feedback because, hey, it was a new year's resolution and it was January one, and so we did it.
Gary S:
Check.
Warwick F:
Back to your example with you and Kelly and the bottle. Like, "Okay, we had that wonderful time. We spent two hours on January 1st, going through the bottle with all the positive feedback." Yeah, Kelly's going to have to wait till January 1st next year before she gets any positive feedback. But it'll be worth, it'll be amazing. And obviously she jokingly said, "No, it's not an either/or, it's both/and."
Warwick F:
Sometimes, especially if people feel bad about themselves, which if today's your worst day, probably extremely likely, just saying, "Oh, you can do it. Don't let what happened to destroy you, or don't listen to those people, they don't know you, being down on you." Yeah, I says, "Okay, great." And then months go by. Well, those negative thoughts will start to take hold again. It's almost like weeds. I use that kind of fertilizer, the weed and feed thing once. We're good. Right? No, you're not good. You got to use it constantly because the weeds want to keep coming back. The same with negative thoughts and negative emotions.
Warwick F:
It's almost like a spiritual battle, depending on your spiritual paradigm, there's the forces of evil and the forces of good. However you look at life. Whenever you see something, say something, not just once. So you see them do something good again, say, "Wow, that was remarkable. I can't believe what you did. That was incredible, what you did that day." Or maybe you see somebody encouraging somebody else. "That was incredible what you did, because they really needed it. Boy, thank you for doing that."
Warwick F:
I mean, to get that flywheel effect, you got to pay attention, see something, say something, be specific, tell others. But you got to do it more than once. Because there's a battle for the soul out there. A battle between being depressed and down and between encouraged, and people need as much encouragement as they can get often. Because life is not easy every day, it seems like you might get hit in the gut with something. Life is not Disneyland. It's not easy. People need encouragement often.
Gary S:
And that, listener, is not just an opinion of the host of the show, Warwick Fairfax, that is a truth backed up by research. I've found the Harvard Business Review article, which talked about a study that found how many positive comments, how much encouragement is needed compared to a piece of criticism. In other words, for the two to balance out, and for every thing that you say that's critical to someone, you should say this number of positive encouraging things. You want to take a guess or you want me just to tell you, how many positive encouraging things for one critical one?
Warwick F:
Well, why don't you tell me?
Gary S:
All right. It is 5.6 encouraging comments for every critical comment. Now, you couldn't see Warwick's face here unless you're watching on YouTube. He was shocked by that. Why were you shocked by that?
Warwick F:
I was going to say three to one, but wow, 5.6 to one that is just staggering.
Gary S:
And the article from which that statistic comes says this about why that number could be so high. It says, only positive feedback can motivate people to continue doing what they're doing well, and do it with more vigor, determination and creativity. Perhaps that's why we found with the vast majority of leaders in our database, this is Harvard Business Review, who have no outstanding weaknesses, that positive feedback is what motivates them to continue improvement.
Gary S:
And then check out this statistic, focusing on their strengths enabled 62% of this group to improve a full 24 percentage points in their work, how productive and how good their work is. That's incredible. That's an incredible statistical testament to what we've been talking about here today.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary. And notice what Gary was just saying is, how offering encouraging comments can really help productivity and take people to the next level. We often think, "Oh, but I need to give them negative feedback so that they'll know and can improve." Well, yeah. You're doing it the right way, it can be helpful. But I think what it's saying is, encouragement is almost more helpful than the so-called constructive feedback. I think one of the challenges is, I hear, I know people, even folks that are really good managers that will say, "Look, don't tell me the positive stuff, I want to improve. Please tell me the negative."
Warwick F:
And that's said with the best of intention, because they honestly want to get better. So I politely say, I can think of one person I have in mind that says, "No, I'm going to give you the positive anyway, because you may not want it, but you got to get it." I don't say it quite that bluntly. But yeah, I think the human psyche is such that, like when we do these cards at birthdays, it's hard for me to process that positive feedback. If you ask me half an hour later, "What specifically did they say?" I'll say well let me get that card out again. It's hard for me to remember, to be honest, because for most of us, positive feedback is hard for us to accept. We tend to be all broken souls.
Warwick F:
Now you say, ask me a week later about the negative feedback, I'm probably going to remember that one. Get to see it, the pain serves to help us remember. Negative feedback is so often remembered, I think that's partly why the ratio, you talked about 5.6 to one is ... Encouragement is not easy to accept, which is why we need to do it often and be consistent, so that somebody's self image of themselves, which often is not positive, tends to change. There's psychological reasons why that statistic makes exceptional sense.
Gary S:
Right. There's a flywheel effect on the other side of the encouragement, right, for the person who receives it, the more you hear that, the more that's spoken to you from varied sources in particular, the better it's going to be for you going forward to receive that and not be like, "Oh no, please stop." Right? I mean, it will help people receive it the more you are part of the solution of people who are giving that encouragement.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Just one more thought on that is, it'd be like saying, "Okay, I watered that dying plant once. It's good. Right?" No, it takes a lot of water for that dying plant to thrive. Think of ourselves like that often, especially if you're in the middle of a crucible. So yeah, it makes abundant sense.
Gary S:
Here's another point that makes abundant sense. The sixth point in your blog, and this is critical too. This is another little offshoot of how critical this is, doing it often, very important, but also we want to make sure that what we say when we say it, that we're sincere in doing so, because insincere positive encouraging feedback can be sniffed out miles away.
Warwick F:
Back in my advertising days, I had an internship which we'll actually talk about here towards the end. But one of the worst things you can do is have a bad product with great advertising. Because you go by the supermarket, you go, "I just saw that out on TV. This product's lousy. I mean, this food, whatever it is, it tastes terrible." You'll get angry.
Warwick F:
It's a bit like that. You've got to be sincere, obviously be specific, just this general mantra of, "Oh, you're doing a great job." Or, "Yeah, you're a nice person." Come on, it's got to be real and be specific. Otherwise, frankly, it will do more harm than good. It will have been better to say nothing, to say great job, you're a nice person, if they're not. They will resent it. They'll be angry and they will feel unseen, unheard, and that you don't know them. I mean, it sounds strange, but insincere comments can be extremely toxic. It is not helpful.
Gary S:
All right. The summary point, this all the flywheel, all flies around, spins around to get us to this point. And that is the power of encouragement. Encouragement is powerful. Why is that true, and how is that true?
Warwick F:
I really believe that encouragement can change the world. I mean, we live in a world that's divided, there's war on as we speak, division, discouragement, fear, uncertainty. But when you encourage somebody else, and they in turn encourage others, and you have encouragement spreading like water spreading out on dry land, you'll see grass growing, flowers blooming. It makes a tremendous difference. If we had everybody think, "Okay, what can I encourage somebody today in?" It would encourage people to bounce back more.
Warwick F:
Yes, if you've gone through some things you might need counseling and if you have illness, you might obviously need medical treatment. I don't discount any of the very practical things that you need to do, but encouragement can just change people's attitude. It can change people's motivation. It can make people feel less negative, more positive. It can literally revolutionize the world if more people thought of encouraging.
Gary S:
And that is the signal that the time has arrived in the podcast where I talk about the purple file, which I do every episode now. The idea behind the purple file was Dennis Gillan, who we had on the podcast a few weeks ago, wrote an article for Entrepreneur magazine, where he talked about this file he keeps, and it's a big thick file and it's purple. That's why it's called the purple file, ingenious. But in it, he keeps notes of encouragement. That's how he describes it. Notes of encouragement he's received.
Gary S:
He's a suicide prevention speaker. Sometimes he worries that his speeches aren't hitting the mark. They're not motivating people. They're not moving people. They're not helping people. And when he gets into that place, he pulls out the purple file and finds a note of encouragement. If anything is an advertisement for the importance of all that we've talked about here, specifically, the idea of writing a note or something that even an email that you can print out, this would be it, because someone can do it again. It's to the point of, it's not just one and done that encouragement then can live on if someone puts it up on the wall, puts it in a purple file.
Gary S:
And I'm just going to read one short one here, because what this note does is hits on both aspects of what we've talked about. Throughout this entire episode, we've talked about, you can have a professional track in your encouragement, and there's also a personal track in your encouragement. In the workplace and in the home, from the boardroom to the living room. Right? You've got that kind of mix. And this is a note that I got 10 years ago. I still have the note. This is a note I got 10 years ago when I left Focus on the Family. It's written by Jim Daly, still the president of the Focus on the Family.
Gary S:
But this is what he said, on the day that I left, he gave me this note. "You've provided great leadership to the media effort at Focus, a wonderful move for the ministry, bringing you in that position. You have managed the media relationships with great ability," specific. Right? "We will miss you. Your flare will also be missed," personal, specific and personal. So there's a business. Right? You've managed the media relationships well, but your flare will also be missed. "You are one of a kind, we love you."
Gary S:
All the things that we've talked about here, the entire flywheel represented there in this idea of, if you keep a purple file, if people are encouraging you, they're giving you fodder to put in your purple file. So, as you think about encouraging others, know that it's not only is it not one and done for you to continue to encourage them, but the bits of encouragement that you give them can live on for them in that particular case from my old boss, Jim Daly, for 10 years.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So well said. I mean, that's such a great example of the purple file. So whether it's cards or birthdays or Father's Day, Mother's Day, or whether it's handwritten notes that you've kept. Those things matter. We tend to forget. And so we can look at them on our dark days and just remember. It's so helpful, so important.
Gary S:
So now you hinted earlier Warwick that there was a story that you were going to tell about your time, perhaps in a different lifetime, in a different business situation. So before we take the plane to the ground, and really it occurs to me, my whole idea of the captain's turn on the fasten seatbelt sign, we're the only two people on the plane, and one of us is flying it. So, we'll just bring it down without the captain telling us. So, we've begun our descent, but tell us that story that fits in and summarizes, I guess, what it is that we've been talking about today.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Thanks Gary. I mean, if this was a movie in a sense, this is probably the origin story of why encouragement is such a high value for me. It was an example. It's a lifelong lesson that I've never forgotten. I finished school in Australia. It was probably like, I don't know, November, 1979 or something like ... I'm sorry, November, 1978, because school years in Australia are different. It's the calendar year because the summers are round the other way. It's all different. So Oxford wasn't until the fall of 1979, it had like eight month gap or something.
Warwick F:
So for about five months of that, I got internship at an advertising agency, J. Walter Thompson, used to be one of the biggest advertising agencies in the world, now merged with a few others. So, I was working in the Sydney office, and in their group, it was a Kellogg's group. So I was supporting Kellogg's Corn Flakes and a bunch of other things. And there was this Canadian guy, Don Robertson that came out to be chief executive of the Australian office. So, every once in a while we had team meetings, I don't know if there were 50, a 100, 150 people. It was a pretty big office for an advertising agency.
Warwick F:
I remember one time he gave praise to one of the people working in the group I was in the Kellogg's group and said, "The advertising we've done for Kellogg's Australia is some of the best advertising that Kellogg's have seen worldwide for the whole brand." Everybody knows Kellogg's cereal. You can probably get in every country on the planet. I mean, it's a massive brand. So for Don Robertson, CEO of J. Walter Thompson, Australia to say, this is some of the best advertising that's being produced for Kellogg's anywhere on the planet. And Australia, relative to the rest of the world, it's not like a massive market. It's not nearly as big country, but in terms of the market, not nearly as big as the US or Europe. You'll imagine what that person thought. I mean, they would've gone through a brick wall for Don Robertson.
Warwick F:
The work ethic, the commitment that, "Hey, I'm not leaving this place ever." If you're in advertising, you have choices. So that was one of those examples that I have just never forgotten. He was very specific, he told others, like headquarters in Battle Creek, Michigan, wherever they are for Kellogg's. I mean, it was amazing. And ever since then, just the power of encouragement to motivate a team to get to this next level, but just because it's the right thing to do, and that was huge.
Gary S:
And that is an excellent opportunity for us to put the plane on the ground. Before we do that though, before we depart the plane, plane's on the ground, before we grab our peanut bags and head out, your blog available, if not already then soon, at crucibleleadership.com. As you always do, you end with some really insightful and thought provoking questions of reflection that readers can ask themselves. I'm going to leave the listeners, who hopefully will also be readers of the blog, with those three prompts to reflect on everything that we've spoken about here on this episode of the show.
Gary S:
First one, and these are all sequential, you can follow 1, 2, 3. First one, think of someone you want to praise. We won't do it in real time, I won't make you do it while I'm talking. But think of someone you want to praise. Two, think specifically why what they did or who they are is praise worthy. Right? One of the points that Warwick makes in the blog, one of the points we made here is be specific. That carries far more weight as you're offering encouragement to others. And then, here's the most important point. Don't let the thought die on the vine or in your brain, go and say something to them this week, right after you think about it, after I'm done talking, go tell them.
Gary S:
Think of someone you want to praise, think why you want to praise them, think specifically, and then go do it. Because the impact as we've discussed on this episode, the impact can be great. It can be a flywheel that will spur them on to greater performance, or will add depth and meaning and momentum to your relationship with someone professionally or personally. That's the benefit of this thing that we call encouragement. So, listener until the next time we're together, remember that we understand that your crucible experiences are difficult, we understand that they're painful, and that they can take a while to get through.
Gary S:
But the good news that we offer, the good news that Warwick has staked out in his book, Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance, available now at bookstores everywhere, including Amazon. What Warwick points us to is the idea that if we learn the lessons of our crucibles, if we don't stay in the pit, if we get out, and we move forward, we can land at a place that is the most rewarding place we can land, and that's a life of significance. And I want to, on that phrase, life of significance, here comes a tease, here comes a tease. Next week on the show, you will hear about our new series of this podcast, which we're calling Second Act Significance.
Gary S:
We have interviewed some truly remarkable guests who have gone from a first act in life that for whatever reason, wasn't fulfilling, wasn't what they felt they were called to do, didn't bring their heart alive, a crucible is usually involved. And then, they moved on beyond that, and in the second act of their life, they have found that life of significance that we've talked about. So, stay tuned, because beginning next week, and for several weeks following, you will get to hear more about, and actually listen to episodes from folks who have lived and are living a life of second act significance.
It is easy to feel discouraged these days. War has broken out in Ukraine and threatens to destabilize relationships among nations globally. The COVID pandemic, while it has lessened in severity of late, has brought much stress and even tragedy to our day-to-day lives the last two years. The economy continues to struggle, leading to uncertainty about the future for many people.
That’s the challenging news. The hopeful news is that the time has never been better to do our part to help each other weather the storms we’re experiencing. And one of the best places to begin doing that is by encouraging each other.
Words of encouragement, like drops of water to a withering flower, are drops of grace that can calm, soothe, and bring hope, to a bruised spirit. Encouraging others not only helps them move beyond their crucibles, it can actually help them avoid crucibles.
But how can we encourage others, and what is the power that is unleashed when we do? Try putting these seven tips into action as you aim to become more intentional in your efforts to encourage others:
With people at work, with your family and friends, with people you meet, be aware of what is going on. Have an attitude of appreciation and gratitude. Have a mindset that if something good happens and someone does something praiseworthy, you will actually notice.
Quite often with our work colleagues or our friends and family, we will see someone do something we appreciate. We will think, “That is so nice! That was kind! That was really wonderful!” But then we say nothing. If we see someone do something good or display character that is praiseworthy, we have to speak up. It is easy to say nothing. If we would like others to encourage us, let’s first treat others in the way we would like to be treated.
Don’t just say, “You did a great job!,” or “You are a nice person!” That’s OK, but frankly not great. The other person is thinking, “What does that mean? Where did I do a great job? Why am I a nice person?” If the person is a co-worker, or someone else at work perhaps even your boss, tell them specifically why what they did was good, how it helped you or your team on the job. If it’s a friend or loved one, let them know how an act of thoughtfulness and kindness or some other helpful thing they did meant so much to you. Do not take your friends and loved ones for granted. The more specific, in both instances, the better. The same with their character. Give them examples that show why they were such a nice person. The difference between a general comment that someone is a nice person, as against giving them examples that show how kind and thoughtful, they were is enormous.
We are often told that we should not gossip about other people. If we have something to say that is negative, we should tell it to them directly, hopefully in a somewhat tactful fashion. But if we really admire another person, telling others about it as well as the person themselves is a helpful thing to do. It is actually something the person being praised would really appreciate. It may even get back to them. “I have heard so many people tell me how efficient, how hard-working and how productive you are.” If some of those people are their bosses, that is all the better.
Just because you told one person once they were doing a good job and why that was the case, it does not mean you are done. Have an attitude of gratitude, as they say. Be on the lookout for specific instances where you can praise them. Giving a person positive feedback over time with specific examples can make an enormous difference.
When you praise someone for the job they are doing or their character, it has to be sincere. Giving false praise, such as telling someone they are doing a good job, when they know they haven’t, will only make things worse. They will resent you, and potentially feel guilty and feel bad about themselves. You might be too busy to know how they are doing in their job performance, and might throw around generic praises. That is not helpful. Encouragement must be specific, but it also must be genuine.
Encouragement can change the world. Encouragement can make people feel valued. It can make them feel seen and heard. It can motivate them to work harder, believe in the mission of the organization more. It can improve relations with friends and family. It can make an enormous difference. It can have a multiplication effect. If you model encouragement to others, they might over time encourage other people, who in turn will encourage still others. Maybe some of those other people will turn around and encourage you. That is not why you should encourage others, but it may be a nice byproduct.
Our world is hurting. People are in pain, even feeling broken. Encouragement lifts people up; it can have a healing effect. It can bind people together. It can lead to still others being encouraged. It can calm fears, ease burdens, and bring hope amid challenges. Isn’t this the world we want to live in?
Kelly Sayre thought she was traveling the perfect career path, not making much money but making great impact helping a coaching entrepreneur run a business that focused on empowering women. The boss had brought her on with the promise of her taking over one day — but then it all went wrong in a way Sayre never saw coming. Suddenly unemployed and thousands of dollars in debt, she allowed herself to mourn only briefly before carving out a new calling all her own. As the founder and president of The Diamond Arrow Group and author of the bestseller SHARP WOMEN: EMBRACE YOUR INTUITION, BUILD YOUR SITUATIONAL AWARENESS AND LIVE LIFE UNAFRAID, she equips women to avoid physical threats as well as relational and professional harm like she experienced.
To learn more about Kelly Sayre and to order her book, visit www.thediamondarrowgroup.com
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Kelly S:
You can either stay stuck in that anger or hurt or betrayal, or you can say, "How do I move forward? And what is going to be the best for me mentally?" Because I could have stayed angry. And trust me, I threw one heck of a pity party that night. It was a rager, all by myself. But the next day I got up, I dusted myself off, I went to go workout and I was like, "You had your pity party. Now it's time to move forward because this is where you're at. And if you stay stuck here, you're going to stay here, or you can figure out a path forward."
Gary S:
That, friends, is a recipe for doing what the title of this show aims to help you do, moving beyond your crucible. Is it easy? Hardly. But is it possible, and more than that, necessary? Absolutely. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show.
Gary S:
Our guest this week is Kelly Sayre, founder and president of the Diamond Arrow Group and author of the bestseller, Sharp Women, Embrace Your Intuition, Build Your Situational Awareness and Live Life Unafraid. The seed for her business and her book, she says in our interview, was the situation that led her to that pity party she described, working for next to nothing for a coaching business based on her passion for empowering women and the promise that she was being groomed to one day run the organization.
Gary S:
When that succession plan fell apart in ways you won't believe, she found her new calling, still serving women, but this time helping keep them safe from physical threats as well as relational and professional harm like she experienced.
Warwick F:
Well, Kelly, we're going to talk a bit about your Sharp Women book and Diamond Arrow Group, and I know you live outside of Minneapolis, I'd love to hear a bit of the backstory of kind of what makes Kelly Sayre, kind of who you are and a little bit of family origin... what's part of some of the threads, if you will, that make you who you are, because we're often formed as we grow up in influences and ... a little bit of the origin story, if you will?
Kelly S:
Sure. I grew up in a very small town, 500 people. Everybody knows everybody. It was a great learning ... way to grow up, I guess, a learning experience, impacted my life moving forward. My father was an over the road truck driver, so he was gone a lot. My mom was a nurse. And being the oldest of three, it was a lot of times my responsibility to take care of my siblings and we had to be very self sufficient.
Kelly S:
So it instilled a lot of personal responsibility, accountability and taking care of others. So I look at that as a benefit. We joke that my mother's bloodlines, I was very calm, centered, very realistic, practical. And then my dad's side became the whimsical, dreamer, I can do anything and go anywhere type personality. So when those two combined, when I graduated high school, I could not wait to get out of small town and go to big city and moved all over. Had some experiences with Southern California. I moved to Southern California with my best friend from college for a while. And that was a very important time in my life because it, for once, it was getting out of that small town bubble and really experiencing and getting to know people.
Kelly S:
And still pulled back, ended up back here, back home because my family is all here. So that tie and that pull back to family was also very impactful. And I met my now husband and now raising my own family here in central Minnesota.
Warwick F:
So you're back in Minnesota and I know you were working in a nonprofit, which then shifted to kind of what is maybe your crucible experience. So talk about, as you're back home and you're finding a way in the career world, you're beginning to have a family. So where did that sort of whimsical dreaming, practical side, how did that coalesce into a career path, if you will?
Kelly S:
When I was in high school, my senior year, I took an entrepreneurship class that was only allowed for seniors. So you had to start your own business for the first half of the year. And then the second half of the year was a class business, so learning how to work together. And ever since then, I had the entrepreneurship bug. I had cousins, uncles, aunts, who had all had their own businesses. So it wasn't completely out of my purview or my perspective that, "Oh, well that's something that we don't do." It was, "Oh, that could be a reality for me."
Kelly S:
And so I knew someday I would love to have my own business, but I didn't know what it was. And then life experiences, the nonprofit that you mentioned that I worked for was actually sports tourism for the convention and visitor's bureau in the St. Cloud area.
Kelly S:
So it was my job to go out and research sporting events, amateur sporting events, to bring and host in our community because that fills our hotels, that has people eating at our restaurants and visiting our shops and our retail. So it's good for economic impact. And had some great successes, some great experiences in that role and realized, I've kind of hit the plateau. I can't go any further. I have two small children, we're not leaving this area. So it's not like I could stay in this field and move to a bigger city, a tier one city, perhaps this is the time to evaluate and see what I could do on my own. And that's where I was introduced to this individual who had a company doing executive training and executive peer groups for females. And I was invited to be a member of her second executive peer group.
Kelly S:
And as part of that peer group, you also get coaching. And in those coaching sessions with her, I had shared, I'd really love to have my own business, but I don't know what that is. I was still trying to figure out, what is my thing? What am I good at? I really love planning events, but I don't want to work every night and every weekend. I have small children and a husband who has a very demanding job.
Kelly S:
And so through that natural conversation, that's where the invitation to join her company, and she was a solopreneur, and become the legacy, kind of take her company to the next level, become the succession plan, take her company and grow. And so that's where it all kind of dominoed into leaving the job at the Sports, Tourism, Convention and Visitors Bureau, a job that I loved, had a lot of fun with, got to travel, got to know lots of people and say ... It was funny, at the time I was taking classes on entrepreneurship at our local college and it was either I could pay to take classes in entrepreneurship, or I could just take the leap and go learn it as an apprentice.
Kelly S:
And that was really, obviously, one of the decisions that my husband and I made is, let's do this. Let's go all in on this and take this risk in joining this company to build it. I mean, the whole purpose was, behind the mission of that business was to empower women, to help them find their inner strength, to give them confidence, to chase after their dreams, to pursue their dreams. And what really, really made them come alive, made them embrace their passions. And because of my personality, she was the coach and she was kind of the behind the scenes of, I'll do the coaching and I'll kind of run the executive groups. You go out, you start a podcast, you create an all day women's event. You create networking events, you create these things, you kind of run these events and be that face and bring people in and help share our message.
Kelly S:
And because I was so naturally passionate about helping others, sharing other stories, it was a good fit. It was a good partnership because that's ... I liked being out in front of people and hearing people's stories. My podcast that we did was all ... I always said, women struggle with sharing their successes or celebrating because they don't want to sound egotistical or they don't want to sound like they're bragging. So I always said, "Tell me what your success is and I'll brag for you." So I'll tell your story, I'll talk you up, I'll share how awesome you are with everybody else. And that way it's not you. So it was really fun and I loved getting to know people and their stories. And one of my favorite was a woman who was going to school to be a lawyer and dropped out her last semester and became a monster truck driver and was the first female to successfully back flip and land her monster truck.
Warwick F:
Wow.
Gary S:
Wow.
Kelly S:
And this is the person who was right in our city and nobody knew, Olympians or successful business owners, that the average everyday person didn't necessarily know. To your point with this podcast, is people have stories of how they got to where they are. And it's really fun and inspiring to learn people's stories, because then you say, "Oh, well I could do that." If I can go to a lawyer and then decide to be a monster truck driver, why not?
Warwick F:
Anything's possible. I mean, that just seems like such a perfect fit, entrepreneurship, you've got meaning and purpose with empowering other women and anything's possible. It seems so good. And as I'm pretty aware in the coaching circles, a lot, if not most coaches are more on the introverted end of the spectrum. They're good at listening and coaching, but not always good at entrepreneurship and business. It's why there's tons of courses and there's actually a small, if not large business of training of trying to help coaches know how to sell and be better on the business side.
Warwick F:
I mean, there's stacks of different courses you can take. So, you didn't need that because you already had that in your DNA. So I get why the person that started the business thought you'd be a good fit. It makes perfect sense.
Warwick F:
So it seems like this is great. This should be a great arc, a great story, but it sounds like it wasn't the typical happy ending story, you ride off into the sunset, the business grows and the other person hands off to you and it's all wonderful. There were some big challenges there. Talk about how, what seemed like just a perfect opportunity you ran into, I guess, per the print behind you, some stormy seas. So tell us about those stormy seas that you had, but you didn't anticipate, and how could you?
Kelly S:
Well, and it's interesting because it does end up tying into the work that I do now, in regards to personal safety but boundaries. And when I started, because she had been an individual, it was "Well, you're going to have to take the risk and come in and prove your worth, basically you're going to have to build your own salary." So for the first six months, I mean, it was very, very minimal pay. It was basically like here's enough for a little stipend to get through.
Kelly S:
So my husband and I had made the decision to save up. So we had saved up so that I could take this financial risk for our family, not having an income, basically, to prove my worth, which going back, I had no problem. I knew I had a good work ethic. I knew I was passionate about this. I knew that I had the fortitude to follow through and that I didn't have a problem working hard. I didn't have a problem saying, "Here, I will work hard for you." But what was interesting is because I take a lot of people at their word is that's what ended up happening.
Kelly S:
So that first six months, successful, great, you've proved your worth. Going forward this next year, I went to the owner and said, "I need to make what I made at the nonprofit," which thankfully wasn't a lot. It wasn't like I was asking for a huge pay bump, but it's what my family's budget had been built on. So we knew where we could manage our family finances comfortably to continue building. And so for that whole year, I kept pushing like, "Hey, we got to get this in writing. I've got to understand, my family's taking this risk in and we need something that can solidify what is the plan moving forward? How does the succession plan work?"
Kelly S:
And finally, at the end of the year, I wasn't getting it. I said, "Here, I'll put together an initial proposal. A and B. I don't even know if it's legal. I don't know if this is contractual, but we just have to start this conversation somewhere." And, "I will take this," the owner took it and said, "I will review this. I'll talk with our accountant and our lawyer, we'll figure something out in the new year." And then in the new year, things were planning, going forward. We had had a successful year end, we surpassed revenue goals.
Kelly S:
So again, from my perspective, it's like, I've proved my worth yet again. We're growing the business in leaps and bounds, this is great. I can't wait to see where we're going to take it. We had set some pretty awesome one, three, five-year goals. And I was excited by the potential for growth. And really, the crucible moment, I guess you could say, was when I got my W-2. Yes, W-2, I always forget if it's the W-4 or W-2, the W-2 in the mail, there was big goose eggs on the tax withholding at the federal and state level. And my husband called me actually, because we had a tax appointment that day and he said, "Is this a misprint?" And called down to the accountant for the company. No, that's what it is. It's kind of one of those things where you go, "Well, can that even be possible? I didn't even know you could do that. I don't understand."
Kelly S:
And when we went to our tax appointment, my accountant, who I had known for years, said, "What's this?" And I said, "I don't know. That's just what came." And that was when we discovered that we now owed thousands of dollars in back taxes to the federal government that we didn't have the savings for because we had spent that money as part of the investment of me buying into the business, buying into the succession plan. And so now all of a sudden it was well, now what? And when I confronted the business owner, it was, "Well, I'm sorry you misunderstood. We don't have any money to pay your back taxes." And that was very shocking to me, because all of a sudden it was like, wait a minute.
Kelly S:
And there was about a two week period from there that my husband and I sat down that night and said, "We need this in writing. Going forward, we got to get this figured out." We came up with what we thought would be a compromise saying, "You need to pay this because you were supposed to withhold taxes and you didn't. And now we're stuck. We have to come up with thousands of dollars within basically 30 days from our tax appointment, which we don't have. And we've got to get this straightened out. We can't anymore be just taking you for your word."
Kelly S:
And then two weeks later, because she just wanted to talk, I wanted it in writing and it became like the Alamo, little bit who's going to give. And so finally I said, "I will meet with you in person if you come with something in writing that shows how we're going to remedy the situation going forward." And when that meeting came, it was her informing me that she was firing me. And there was a whole bunch of legal documents now that said, "Well, we'll give you a little bit, but then you have to say that you left to start your own business," and basically lie and kind of the keep your mouth quiet and-
Warwick F:
Nondisclosure agreements, as they call them, I guess.
Kelly S:
Yes. I was so shocked because I didn't see that coming. In my mind, we were going to figure this out. We were going to work it out. It was a misunderstanding, paperwork must have gotten screwed up. To me, I wasn't coming at it from an intent, it came out as a mistake, and so how can we ... We'll figure this out.
Kelly S:
And so that was very shocking to me because I did not see that coming. And then when I said, "Oh, okay, well, my accountant said the total on my return wasn't accurate, that there is some money missing. Can you talk about that? Do you know you're supposed to by law withhold taxes?" And every answer was just, "You'll have to talk to my lawyer. You'll have to talk to my lawyer."
Kelly S:
And I realized pretty quickly that this was not a conversation. This was a, here's the paperwork and we're done. And so I said, "Well, I'm going to review this paperwork. After all that my family's been through, I can't believe this is how it's ending." And when I drove away, I remember specifically because I drove away in such shock and it was like 13 minutes was all that ... the entire length of that meeting, and I called my husband and he was like, "Wow, that was fast." And I'm like, "I need an external hard drive and a big glass of wine," because on my way home, I did not see this coming. I don't know if I just lost Outlook, and we think of technology, all of my contacts, all of my calendar, all of my ... I don't know if everything's working or if it's gone or what, if she wiped the desktop clean.
Kelly S:
It was just such a shock and she hadn't, and I'm sure we'll get into this later about ... I share this story as the first time, really, because I don't believe in disparaging people. I believe people make mistakes. But from my perspective of that moment, the rug completely got pulled out from under me. I had never been fired from a job. I had worked so hard to build up this company and believed in it so much. And I could not believe that I was getting fired for basically finding an accounting error, bringing it to the attention of a woman who owned the company who talked about supporting women and building women up and asking for what they're worth, and the icing on the cake is it was International Women's Day, it was the day that she fired me.
Kelly S:
And this is where I say, and even in my book, my acknowledgements, I say, God has a really funny sense of humor with me. We get along great. But there are days when I'm like, really? You went for the trifecta, you got me fired on International Women's Day by a woman who owns a women supporting women business.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I thought this was about empowering women. Gee, I don't feel very empowered for some reason. I feel like kneecapped, perhaps, but not empowered.
Kelly S:
Yeah, we were in that position where all of a sudden I had no job. We had no savings. We suddenly found ourselves owing thousands of dollars, and no money to hire a lawyer. And every friend lawyer who I called, who in the tax space was like, "I have never heard of this situation. I wouldn't even know where to start." And so that's where it came down and kind of the moment that I really think we should touch on, because I think this is so important for anybody going through a tough time is, I had a mentor in my life that I had met sitting next to on an airplane a year prior. And he had been my mentor. And so he knew, because he owned a private business. So there were times I was like, "Well, what would a succession plan, can you give me some examples or help me figure out how to set this up?"
Kelly S:
So he knew where I was at. And when he found out that happened, he said, "I will give you a job. Here's what I'll pay you. I know you've wanted to have your own business. You have to come work for me as a contractor. So, set it up." So it was really that God had it set up, planned a long time prior to kind of have this. So we had a way forward. But at that same time, it was like, you can either stay stuck in that anger or hurt or betrayal, or you can say, "How do I move forward? And what is going to be the best for me mentally?"
Kelly S:
Because I could have stayed angry. And trust me, I threw one heck of a pity party that night. It was a rager, all by myself. But the next day I got up, I dusted myself off, I went to go workout and I was like, "You had your pity party. Now it's time to move forward, because this is where you're at. And if you stay stuck here, you're going to stay here, or you can figure out a path forward."
Gary S:
It's interesting you use the words pity party, both start with a P, another point that that illustrates that I want to make sure listeners get is that's a pivot point for you. We say a lot because a guest said it. I don't know who it was, if you're listening now guest who said it, I apologize that I'm stealing your words, but you said the words, it's the change in mindset from this happened to me, to this happened for me. That's the pivot point that you got to in that, from pity party to pivot point.
Gary S:
For listeners who maybe spend a little bit more time in what Warwick calls the pit, he cuts it off at pit, in the bottom of the pit in a crucible. What's your counsel, your advice, your hope, your exhortation to people who might find themselves stuck there a little longer? How do you get to that place where you understand, it didn't happen to me, it happened for me, and that's how I go forward?
Kelly S:
I think that pit is going to look different for everyone. It's kind of like grief. There's no set time to process grief. Everyone does it a little different. From my perspective, it's based on your life experiences. That wasn't the first crucible moment in my life that I considered. There had been other big challenges that I had faced and being able to look back and say, "Listen, Kelly, this isn't the first time you've hit a roadblock, or a concrete wall and not been able to go through it," but there's always up, down, to the sides. But I think it's the giving yourself grace to feel all the feelings, that's where I say I threw myself a pity party because I was like, I'm going to be upset. I'm going to cry. I'm going to be angry. I'm going to be mad. Just feeling the feelings, not taking it out on my kids. Not taking it out on my husband, not taking it out even on this other person.
Kelly S:
It was, this is how I'm feeling and feeling that, and then almost feeling the exhaustion for me of like, I don't want to feel this way anymore. This isn't good. This isn't productive. This doesn't get me to where I want to be. And one thing that a cousin of mine, who I'm very, very close to whose had his own business for years, he said something that really kind of helped with that pivot, to your point of it didn't happen to me, it happened for me, is he said, "Kelly, you loved your work so much. You were so passionate about what you were doing and the mission, you would've sacrificed and you would've given so much in exchange for what was being given back to you. You would've stayed there forever. So maybe this was God saying, this is not where you're supposed to go. And if I don't come in and force you out, you will always stay there. You will always find an excuse to stay there. You will always find an excuse to make sacrifices to benefit the something else."
Kelly S:
And so to me, I also say that I'm very stubborn. I get that from my mom's side of the family. And sometimes it takes a little bit of a two-by-four to get a hint across to me. And so I think that was God's way of like, if I don't get you out of this now, you're not going to achieve what I have planned for you, because you will continue to try and fit that round peg in a square hole, versus letting go and letting me lead the way.
Warwick F:
What's fascinating about what you're saying, Kelly is even though we're very different, grew up very differently, I can absolutely relate to what you're saying. Because I've said almost the exact same words that you just said, funnily enough. As listeners would know, I grew up in a very wealthy, 150-year-old family media business in Australia founded by a person of faith. Faith was very important to me. And so I felt like it's pretty obvious what God's plan is. It's always dangerous to presume that we know what God's plan is because we're often wrong, as I was.
Kelly S:
That's God's great sense of humor-
Warwick F:
Indeed.
Kelly S:
... is that we think we know.
Warwick F:
Yeah. It's like watch out, lightning's about to strike. And so in my case, I've never been in the military, but it's so about the whole duty, honor, country that ... and my dad died in early '87. I was seen as the heir apparent, did this $2 billion takeover, was "in control," and then because of debt and recession, the company went under. But I felt in some sense that it was not a good fit for me. I'm more of a reserved, reflective advisor. I'm not wired to be in charge of a massive 4,000 person, $700 million company. So in some ways, I never would've left. I would've let down my dad and ancestors. And I mean, I'm very stubborn. I'm also very high perseverance. And so I would've just kept at it. The decades would've rolled by. Wouldn't have been good for my kids.
Warwick F:
I have two sons and a daughter, like 30 into twenties, because they would've grown up with a whole mantel on their back. So in some ways I think God, said, "I know you're never going to leave because of this whole duty thing," but despite my own stupidity, which is in my case, it was largely my fault, I do believe God said, "Well, the only way I can get you out is for this company to go bankrupt. And so, one way or another, I'm going to make you leave."
Warwick F:
And as I look back, that excruciating pain was a tremendous blessing in hindsight. So it's not quite the same, but I can relate to the fact of maybe God was looking at you Kelly and says, "She's never going to leave and we'll figure this out." So maybe if you believe in the divine, there was a higher purpose.
Warwick F:
As we pivot to what you do now, one of the key things, we got to make a choice to move on. But one of the key aspects of moving on is forgiveness. And as I often say, it's not because what the person did was right. Here's a clear case that it wasn't right. Morally, legally, I don't know, it wasn't right in any shape, way or form. But as I often say, the reason you forgive is not because they deserve it, it's because you deserve it. And you were in your own prison unless you forgive. Obviously, I'm sure you probably had to go through this. How did you manage to forgive? Because you must've to be able to move forward, I'm assuming.
Kelly S:
That took a lot longer, I would say. And I can say this now so calmly and tell the story and I can assure your listeners it wasn't always that easy to tell the story without a lot more emotion or a lot more like snarled lip, but that forgiveness, I could feel myself, every time I had an emotional reaction, anytime that I felt myself adrenalizing, thinking about it and being frustrated. And it would come up at other moments, it would have nothing to do with that. But if I felt slighted or if I felt like, "gah, the world is not fair!" And starting to slip down the pity party slope again, it would, all of a sudden, it would go right back to there. And so I realized this was baggage I continue to carry with me.
Kelly S:
And while I'm all about getting good workouts and to build cardio strength and physical strength, mentally, you got to let that go, because otherwise you're not going to be fully present in the now, you're not going to be fully aware of what's going on now in relationships, or it's going to impact decisions you make going forward.
Kelly S:
And I did a lot of soul searching on forgiveness, because it's really, "Oh, I forgave them a long time ago," but then when it comes back up, you're like, "Well, maybe I didn't, maybe I just said I did." And I couldn't, because I never got an apology. I never did sign paperwork or the NDA. I just said, "I would rather walk." And I'm not someone who airs dirty laundry, but I'm going to walk away with my head held high and just move forward and not deal with that.
Kelly S:
And then it took probably a couple years, I will be completely honest, before I finally got to a place where the forgiveness thing came and it was, I can forgive, not because that they asked for forgiveness, but because this is the best thing for me. And going forward, I can set a boundary emotionally, mentally, physically that I want absolutely nothing ever to do with that person again. Still in the area, she still has her business. She still does things. I interact with people who still participate in events or business activities that relate to this person. And it was very hard for me sometimes to be like, well, I know these people and wanting them almost to pick sides and then realizing, who am I to say that? This was something that was kind of between us, but it was very hard for women to understand why I wanted absolutely ... why I had such a hard boundary.
Kelly S:
It was, "Well, if you forgave, then you should be okay." And I was like, that's something for forgiveness. And with boundaries that now, when it comes to situational awareness and personal safety is, no, you can forgive someone then and draw a hard line and say, "I don't have to let that ..." having a strong boundary isn't about kindness, isn't about being a good person, it's protecting myself, my mental health, my emotional health, because I didn't want to pick that heavy baggage back up and bring it with me anymore. I want to leave it back there. So it's a hard boundary, and that is something that applies in all areas of life. Because again, when it comes to women and personal safety, so often we imagine an attacker or a predator as this dark, shadowy male figure. And what I'm trying to do is bring the conversation about boundaries, mental, emotional, physical, it's not always that scenario.
Kelly S:
Sometimes it's at work. Sometimes it's with a female. Sometimes it's with a friend, sometimes with a boss. And so if we can remove the stereotypical predator or person who wishes ill intent, or who causes ill intent, whether that's on purpose or not, boundaries are boundaries. And if we can talk about behaviors that are unacceptable and we can realize what we're comfortable with, what we want to invite into our life, what is us, what is our boundaries and what is not us, that's all it is. Then it becomes very easy to see and to enforce boundaries in all areas of our life, which then improves our personal safety, whether that's our mental wellness or our physical wellness.
Warwick F:
So talk about how, obviously you were, I think went on a course on sort of self defense. And I think from my understand, most of those are designed by men and not women. But it seems like that pivoted into ... broader than just self defense. Situational awareness, not getting yourself into situations. It's okay for everybody, certainly women, to have boundaries.
Kelly S:
I came upon situational awareness in a very traditional way. I took a physical self defense class for women, and we spent the entire four hours hitting, kicking, doing all these great things that, again, I'm a physical person, I'm an athlete. So I enjoyed that. That was fun for me. And at the very end of class it was, but the last thing you want to do is get into a physical altercation. You need to be more aware of your surroundings to avoid danger. And then, see you.
Kelly S:
And my brain, wait, whoa, whoa. We just spent the entire time focused on what I was supposed to avoid doing, but the thing I'm supposed to use 99% of the time, we didn't discuss at all. And my curiosity went into hyper drive and went, well, what is situational awareness? And so what I thought would be the answer, "Oh, okay. This is like Jason Bourne spy stuff where you're watching body language so you know what they're going to do. They're going to take a left instead of a right. And they're going to do this and this."
Kelly S:
But the more I dug, the more I researched, the more I asked questions, A, discovered that there really wasn't anything out there for training specific to situational awareness, but especially to the everyday person and even more so, speaking to women. And when I started, well, again, it was like pulling a string where you're like, oh, okay, here's one little string and pretty soon the whole sweater's unraveled, is I kept digging deeper and deeper. And what I kept getting more and more into is the psychology behind it. And it's not this predator, the boogeyman in the bushes, it's actually social conditioning and social mores, which gets into the kindness. And women, there's a certain expectation placed on females.
Kelly S:
And again, this is all speaking very stereotypically, but there's an expectation put on females of be kind, be nurturing, be forgiving. We've heard the saying, men, it's called being assertive and women, there's definitely a different term for that behavior. And that's very confusing from a feminine perspective because, well, wait, we're supposed to be this way at work, but this way at home. But then don't get ... domestic violence, domestic abuse statistics have been stagnant for decades.
Kelly S:
So, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. And so much of the work was advocacy. So it was a reactive, self defense is a reactive, you're in a physical self defense situation. How do you fight back? And for me it was like, can we just not have this happen at all?
Kelly S:
Can we start having real conversations about those little things that start out as controlling tactics, that start out pushing past boundaries and get brushed off? "Oh, don't be so emotional." "Don't overreact." "Oh, you're rude. You're being rude by not being more friendly," or if a stranger interrupts your conversation and wants to have a talk with you, well, it's rude to say no and then sit there. You're supposed to engage in conversation and small talk.
Kelly S:
And so there's a very different social perception, and what I've found in the work that I've done, and now even with my book being out for a week, literally a week now, is the texts I get, the messages I get from women. What's interesting to me is it's all coming private, because they're scared to say it publicly, but they're like, "Oh, finally, oh my gosh, you're talking about this in a real way, in the real ..." but with a sense of humor and with a kind of authenticity that says, there's no such thing as perfect, because again, a lot of women struggle with wanting to be perfect, whether that's Martha Stewart or GI Jane, they think they have to be the perfect one or the other. And it's like, why can't you be more than that? And complex? And it's okay to have boundaries. And if you don't want to be someone's friend, you don't have to.
Warwick F:
You have to almost reeducate some women to saying, you matter, it's not okay?
Kelly S:
Definitely. I mean, the saying, don't mess with mama bear. Any woman that I talk to, when I say it's okay to have boundaries, it's okay to do this. And they're like, "Oh, I don't know. I don't want to offend somebody. I don't want to be rude." But I say, "If that's your kid," and they're like, "Oh, no, you don't mess with my kids." And it's literally this pre-programming, building those neuro pathways that, well, you have words too. I get that you are being protective of your offspring, which is again, an inherent, we need the survival, we need the species to continue, but you matter too. And that's where it's bringing it up in a way that isn't, "Well, you're doing this wrong. So this is what you need to do."
Kelly S:
It's more of speaking to them and getting to the root of it. Because again, it could go back to a traumatic event that happened to them where they didn't think they had worth when they were in high school. And so they're constantly seeking validation from an outside source, whether that's work, whether that's a relationship, whether that's financial worth or something like that. And so it's really getting to that and changing the mindset. Because if you look, every self defense training, every even success in business training gets down to, you have to have the right mindset. How you carry yourself when you walk into a room to do a presentation tells the audience, gives them a first impression of you. Well, that same how you carry yourself when you walk down the street also tells someone who might be targeting you as a potential victim will say, "Oh, I'm not going to mess with her."
Kelly S:
Kind of to the point of the saying, "She's 100 pounds soaking wet, but I would not mess with her." As I say, that's how you have to carry yourself. Then there's this teeter-totter of like, well, if I'm not nice and I'm assertive and I have firm boundaries, well, then I'm a negative person and I'm not a very ... I'm a rude person. And it's like, you can still be a kind person and have strong boundaries.
Kelly S:
I don't have all the answers, but I'm trying to bring the conversation to light. And so that more people talk about the way it really works and what those micro threats on women's safety, even if it's an emotional or a psychological safety issue, how that manifests then into, or potentially has the capability to manifest into physical abuse.
Gary S:
One of the things that you say in your book, and I have the press release for your book here. And it's one of the points that's pulled out and it goes to what you've been talking about the last several minutes. And it's a great phrase that you've said, "You are not who the world tells you to be." Really, that's the summary of what you just said, is one of the things you're helping women understand, they don't have to be who the world says they are. Why is that so important?
Kelly S:
Because we get messaging, again, coming from the female perspective. And I think, Warwick, you talked about even the messaging men receive, we get messaging. Boys are supposed to be like this, girls are supposed to be like this, and we get that messaging and it gets ingrained into our subconscious. This is who I'm supposed to be in middle school, in high school. We get defined by the clothing we wear. We get defined by whether we're in athletics or not. Whether we're on the debate team, whatever it may be. And then, well now, if you're that, then this is probably what you're going to do after high school. And this is what you're going to do if you're going to go onto education, or if you're going to go into career, or whatever it may be. Well, all of a sudden you're like, "Well, this is the path. This is what I've been told I am, this is what I'm supposed to be."
Kelly S:
And in the book I do say, when kids are little and they're like, "I'm going to be an astronaut and bake cakes." And we're like, "Super! That's phenomenal!" Because we know that it's going to change 100 times before they graduate. But at some point there starts to be this, well, you can't do both, or you're a woman, you can't do that. Or, you're a guy, you can't do that. Or, you come from a small town, you're never going to do that.
Kelly S:
And so that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and our internal monologue says, "Well, that's not me. And this is who I'm supposed to be." If we don't take the time to say, "Well, what do I want to be? Who am I in this world?" And how often do we now see people in their forties, fifties doing the whole, "Well, who am I?" Because they've lived their whole life as someone else.
Gary S:
And that's an important point to make on a show that's called Beyond the Crucible. We're all about how to move past, move beyond a crucible experience and lead a life of significance. And really, what you're talking about, you're not who the world tells you to be. If you believe you are who the world tells you to be, if you believe those things that are said about you, that can fuel a crucible experience, that can cause a crucible experience that can get you off your vision, off your destiny. It can put you in places, not just where you're physically in danger, which certainly your book talks about. But you also talk about things that can put you in a place where your destiny, perhaps, is in danger. You're going a direction that you shouldn't go because you're believing these external things about yourself. You're not situationally aware that you don't have to accept those things that get thrown at you.
Kelly S:
I agree.
Warwick F:
One of the things I just want to comment on as you were speaking, Kelly, is that as we do the internal work that we are worth something, we don't have to be defined by stereotypes, be they female or male, that's a situational awareness that will help attract the people that we want to attract, be they friends or in romantic relationships and will serve to recoil those that we shouldn't be at.
Warwick F:
So if you've got some woman that's self-confident, that believes in boundaries, won't put up with dumb stuff, men with abusive tendencies will say this, "This woman's not a doormat. I better go select my target elsewhere." Not to be overly graphic, if you follow. It'll be like, "this doesn't fit my profile. This is a self-confident woman that knows who she is. That's going to be too much work for me," at the risk of being direct.
Kelly S:
And I like to preface that because a lot of times what I hear from women who are, or find themself in a relationship where they're starting to ... because of gas lighting, because of love bombing, they get confused because there's also that mantra of like, if you're with someone, you're with them in the good, in the bad, for better, for worse, richer or poorer, sickness and in health. And so there's this mentality of, well, we're just going through a rough time.
Kelly S:
And then if they do suddenly come to a realization, this is not a healthy relationship, but it's been years, and let's say they're successful at work. All of a sudden there's this, everyone thinks I'm this brilliant, fantastic, business woman who has her stuff together and is self-confident, but in this area, and that's where I say again, you could be that way in your career or in this external world, because that's what the world wanted you to be. And it can be really hard to kind of internally, for those women to come to terms with the fact that how could I be so successful or so self-confident appearing, but yet be in this relationship that is physically and emotionally damaging?
Warwick F:
Just as we kind of round up here, I love just what you've said with the Diamond Arrow Group giving women courage to move forward, and Sharp Women. What's kind of, would you say, I think we've talked about it, the overall message of what you do with the Diamond Arrow Group and Sharp Women? What's the key message you want women to hear?
Kelly S:
So the whole mission of the Diamond Arrow Group is to have women have the confidence to move forward and live life on their terms, whatever that means for them. That's the symbolism of an arrow through a diamond, and a solitary arrow can also mean protection from harm. I love situational awareness. I geek out about this stuff and understanding human behavior, the psychology piece of it.
Kelly S:
And because one out of four women are assaulted in their lifetime by someone they know, that statistic is staggering. If you get a room full of five women, one or two of them have experienced some sort of an event. So this is something that I feel is very important for women and women's health. Part of what I'm doing though, is let's get down to those foundational skills of saying, it's not "okay, how many punches can you throw? Can you do a block? Can you do this type of kick?"
Kelly S:
Let's talk about some of those more psychological things that I want to call to mind that maybe you've internalized so much as a female from messaging, from social contracts, from social mores, that you don't even realize that that's how it's impacting. And that you're "Oh, well, he probably didn't mean that," or you're brushing stuff off. It's like, no. It's bringing forward.
Kelly S:
A friend of mine who had recently gotten divorced, single, had a gentleman who was pursuing her and under the preface of, "I just want to make sure you're okay. And you're doing okay?" And there was this particular instance where she was out driving, trying to run errands. And he was like, "Are you doing okay? "Yeah. I've just had a rough day." "Well, do you want me to come over and talk?" "Nope, Nope."
Kelly S:
And she had said no a couple times, but yet when she got to her house, he was sitting at the end of her driveway in his car. And when she pulled into her drive ... she didn't see it. And when she pulled into her garage and got out, he got out and started walking towards her. And she was so like, coming, saying, "Kelly, I didn't want to be rude." And I'm like, "You said for him not to come over multiple times. So this is nothing about you being rude. This is him being rude." And having that conversation, because instantly she's like, "Well, I can't be rude, he's here." And so it's changing that conversation and letting women, reminding them it's not being rude to be direct.
Gary S:
I have been situationally aware in this conversation of my responsibilities as the co-host and that sound that you just heard, listeners, the captain has turned on the fasten seatbelt sign indicating it is time for us to begin our descent of our plane. Before we do that though, I would be remiss if I didn't do two things.
Gary S:
One, there's a quote from you, Kelly, that I think really sums up what your book is about. And that is, "Preparation is how lives get saved. When it's time to act, it's too late to prepare." That is the essence of, I think, what you get from Sharp Women, this idea that you have to prepare and when it's go time, there's no time to prepare. Love that perspective. How can listeners find out more about Sharp Women, about the Diamond Arrow Group and about you?
Kelly S:
They can go to our website, which is thediamondarrowgroup.com. The Sharp Women book is available on Amazon and it is the only Sharp Women book. So when you go to Amazon and search Sharp Women, it will pop right up. And it's available.
Gary S:
It's also a best seller, I hear.
Kelly S:
Yes, it is. It did get to the bestseller status. So, that was phenomenal. Thanks to my publishing team that I had the opportunity to work with, quite amazing folks over there. And following me on Instagram and Facebook @thediamondarrowgroup is where I talk about everyday situations. I'll see headlines and say, "Hey, here's things to think about." Because again, going back to the point you pulled out is preparation is key.
Kelly S:
We never wake up in the morning thinking something negative is going to happen to us, we're going to be the victim of an event. So how can we prepare? But I do it in a very nonviolent way or I don't use fear mongering or scare tactics. It's like, "Hey, think about these things." And then people go, "Oh, that's common sense. I just never thought of it that way."
Kelly S:
So I invite people to follow me on those channels, connect with me on LinkedIn, Kelly Sayre. And I believe you have all of the links and will be hopefully posting that stuff in the show notes. But I definitely recommend-
Gary S:
Yeah, indeed.
Kelly S:
... checking out the Sharp Women book because that is, from a woman's perspective, for women.
Gary S:
Warwick, last question is yours.
Warwick F:
Well, Kelly, thank you again for being here. It's just so encouraging and thought-provoking, love what you do with your book, Sharp Women and The Diamond Arrow Group. There may be women who are listening to this that may say, "Well, gosh, Kelly is amazing, but I'm not as self-confident as Kelly, and I'm a little scared. And I don't like to rock the boat. I like to be nice and kind, and I don't know that I could do this stuff. I mean, gosh, it just feels like it's leaping off a cliff." I mean, what would be a message of hope or encouragement to women out there thinking, "Oh, I don't know. I just ... No, I can't do this."
Kelly S:
The question, because it does get overwhelming, people say, "I'm going to walk around paranoid now and looking around, situational awareness, what am I looking for?" And I remind them, take a deep breath, get curious, because my mantra's be bold, be kind, be curious. And if you get curious about your environment, what's in your environment? It's not about always looking for danger.
Kelly S:
I did a training and I asked, what is something you noticed in your environment you had never noticed before? And one woman said, "All the lovely trees I have in my neighborhood." And I was like, "That's fantastic!" Becoming present, being aware is about getting curious. And I always say, what do we miss now is personal human interaction, communication, making eye contact is if you're curious about the people in your environment, that could be your family, your friends, and you'll notice, "wait, are they having a bad day? Hey, how are you doing?" It doesn't have to be curiosity from a self-defense, physical fight. Sometimes it's curiosity of like caring and kindness. When you do that and when you're present and aware and you're curious with what's going on, you're going to pick up good things too. So get curious is what I always tell people.
Gary S:
I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word on the subject's been spoken and Kelly, you just spoke it. Listener, if you are curious, indeed, about Mr. Fairfax, the host of the show and the founder of Crucible Leadership, a couple things you can do to learn more about him and about Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
One, you can get his book, also a bestseller, Crucible Leadership, Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance. That's available in the same place where Kelly's book's available. So go to Amazon and you can get both. Do that right when this is over, not now, because there's still ... I still have a few things to say.
Gary S:
The second thing that you can do if you want to hear more about Warwick's story and about Crucible Leadership is book him to speak, reach out. He has toured parts of the country. He's about ready to go back out and do some more of that. You can go to our website, crucibleleadership.com and you can click a little button that says, book Warwick as a speaker, and you can talk to our speaker agent, Kerri Childers, and she will make all of that stuff a reality for you.
Gary S:
So, until the next time we are together, listener, thank you for spending this time with us. And thank you for understanding what both the host, Warwick, and our guest, Kelly, have talked about today. And that is crucial experiences are indeed painful. They can rattle us. They can knock the wind out of our sails. They can take the breath out of our lungs, change the trajectory of our lives, but they're not the end of our stories. Kelly has proven it, terrible things happened to her as she's pursuing what was going to be a dream of what ... brought her heart alive and that was pulled from her, but she didn't stay down.
Gary S:
She got up and she pursued it. And she's now doing that very thing in her own business, which is not unique to Kelly Sayre. It can be your story as well. The key is to learn the lesson of your crucible, move on beyond that, and when you do, your crucible experience is not the end of your story. It can be like it was for Warwick, like it has been for Kelly and like it's been for all the guests that we've had on the show, and hopefully a lot of our listeners. That can be the start of a new story. And it's a new story that can lead to the best ending ever, because that ending takes you to a life of significance.Ben Bennett’s crucibles were a debilitating mix of negative self-image, mental health issues, addiction and trauma. He found freedom and healing by embracing psychological, neuroscientific and biblical principles to fulfill the deep longings of his heart that had long gone unmet. A speaker, counselor and author, he discusses the eye-opening, lifegiving insights in his latest book, FREE TO THRIVE, which journeys step by step through the seven key longings of every human soul.
To learn more about Ben Bennett, visit www.resolutionmovement.org
. They come in different guises and varying degrees, but they all have one thing in common, they can be moved beyond, hence the title of this podcast. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. Our guest this week is Ben Bennett whose own crucibles were a debilitating mix of negative self-image, mental health issues, addiction, and trauma. He found freedom and healing by embracing psychological, neuroscientific and biblical principles to fulfill the deep longings of his heart that had long gone unmet. A speaker, counselor, and author, his latest book, Free to Thrive, journeys step-by-step through the seven key longings of every human soul, which he and Warwick discuss in detail in this episode.
Warwick F:
Well, Ben, thank you so much for being here. I've had a chance to kind of dip into some of your book that you co-wrote with Josh McDowell, Free to Thrive: How Your Hurt, Struggles, and Deepest Longings Can Lead to a Fulfilling Life. And we'll get into the seven longings how, I guess from your perspective and our perspective God designed us to have these longings, but somehow our hurt, damage and issues can cause a break with achieving those seven longings in the way that God would intend. So, before we kind of get to the book, there's always a reason behind why people write books. I'd love to hear a bit about your kind of backstory and just about your growing up, and just some of the challenges you had that eventually led to you writing this book, but what was life for you like growing up, Ben?
Ben B:
For me, I grew up in a, well, I would say leadership family, my dad was very involved in leadership in ministry. Growing up surrounded by that was kind of witnessing that leadership, and there's a lot of good things, however, there's also a lot of bad things. And for me, I grew up experiencing lots of my dad's anger, lots of rejection, bullying from him, manipulation, threats whenever I didn't behave perfectly. And so, early on, I was hurting, I was lonely. I was not even really just realizing that there was something wrong. I thought I was wrong. I was believing shame that I was doing bad, but also bad was being done to me, and so I was wrong. So, I grew up feeling oftentimes, just worthless inadequate, and by the age of eight, I had developed all these kind of mental health struggles, anxiety, depression, OCD.
Ben B:
I started having these traumatic out-of-body experiences in group settings, and it was just very horrific and scary in many ways. And of course, I learned that people weren't safe, because the people who were supposed to be there, often weren't. And so, despite all of those things, for me, what was probably my biggest survival mechanism... I've had friends ask, "How did you make it?" For me, it was at a very young age having this realization that there's a God who is real, that he created me, that he loves me, that he wants a relationship with me, that I wasn't perfect, but I didn't have to be, because as a Christian believing that Jesus was God, lived the life of perfect obedience to God, died on the cross, rose again, freely offered me forgiveness and a relationship with God.
Ben B:
And so, early on, that was just so important to me, knowing God as bad and hard as life was, I clung onto a hope and a future, and this promises that God was always with me and that ultimately, he was going to deliver me from it. And so, I would say that that was one of the biggest things of kept me moving forward, moving through it. Eventually got addicted to pornography, got addicted to food, was dealing with body image stuff, didn't like the way I talked, didn't like the way I looked, just didn't like me, and was really struggling throughout my teenage years and into college. And ultimately, I had a rock-bottom experience at age 22, my crucible moment as you all would say, and my life was just out of control. I was 22, I was abusing alcohol, I had gained 100 pounds from my eating being out of control, hated myself, was hating other people, was so angry, riddled with these addictions, riddled with these mental health struggles, and I was on my way into full-time ministry.
Ben B:
And I was at this point where it's like, "I want to talk about God and help people," and yet there's so many things in my life that I've not been set free from, and that I'm continuing to struggle with, and I believed the lie that that was just how it was going to be despite as a Christian seeing all throughout the Bible, Jesus talk about setting captives free and binding up our wounds and this healing we can experience. And so, I got sick and tired of being sick and tired, and realized, "I don't want to live this way anymore. There's got to be something more, there's got to be real answers." And I got connected with a fiery pastor who had been a pastor for 30 years. He was based in Portland, Oregon, so his congregation was full of people all over the spectrum, people dealing with cocaine addiction, people dealing with sex addiction, people coming out of prostitution, business leaders, just families, everything. And he had been for about 25 years, helping people heal, helping them work through trauma, helping them with their mental health struggles and helping them overcome addictions.
Ben B:
And his big thing was, "We need an integration of theology, psychology and neuroscience," and there's so much overlap between them. And he started mentoring me and leading me through recovery and spent four years doing that. And through all those solutions, I just found the life that I had always wanted, the life that I was truly looking for. And I encountered God in ways that I'd never encountered him before. I found healthy relationships with people, new experiences, fulfillment. I started loving myself and started truly being able to love other people, and it just changed everything. That was the beginning of the last 11 years, and I've been on that journey ever since and have had the privilege of entering into other people's stories and leaders and parents, and people all over the world and coming alongside them.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I want to transition here to your book, but as we do, I think what I'm... You talk in the book about the seven longings, which we will describe and obviously, God has a plan for that, but then if we try and satisfy those the wrong way, as you say, it causes a lot of damage. So, it sounds like in your case, just to go back a moment, you mentioned you had a dad, anger issues, I think you've mentioned earlier, maybe you had some alcohol issues, so when you look back, what were the things that you didn't have? What were the longings that were broken? You've got a bunch of them in your seven. What were some of the ones that you just felt like you didn't have, because of how you grew up and the environment?
Ben B:
For me, there's key longing heart desires that every human being has, psychological research, sociological research, the Bible shows this, it's so fascinating. And one of the most foundational ones is acceptance to be known, welcomed, and loved as you are, no matter what, and this communicates I'm valuable, and it's almost like the foundation of all these other longings and desires. And for me, as I shared a moment ago, early on, I didn't experience that acceptance all the time or even most of the time. In fact, often what I experienced was rejection and believing... Because when we have these negative experiences, it always leads to something going on in our minds and in our thoughts, and we interpret our events in the things we have been through, either things that are true or things that are not true, things that are lies.
Ben B:
And so, I had these experiences of not experiencing acceptance and value that I was created to have. And so, rather than experience the truth of I'm valuable, I matter, I've got a hope and a future, I've got a purpose in this world, what I experienced was the opposite. I thought the lie was the truth, which was so... It wasn't disorienting at the time, because what I knew was normal, but it was, "Yeah, I'm not valuable." And then it's almost like you look for and experience... It's like everything else in life starts to get funneled through that. "Oh, I was away at college and studying really hard, and I didn't get a perfect grade." Okay. Well, I'm going to filter that through the lens of, "Yep, I'm not good enough. I'm not valuable." Just so many different types of ways. So, that was probably the biggest one for me.
Warwick F:
So, I just want listeners to hear what you just said as we transition to the book is that Ben, it's so important to deal with your stuff, and we'll probably get into this certainly. Listeners know that I grew up in a large family media business in Australia, 150-year-old company, launched this $2.25 billion takeover in 1987, and ended up failing three years later, and the company went under. So, there was, yeah, the sense of I damaged a 150-year-old legacy, hurt, my dad had died just before the over, hurt, disappointed him, my parents caused ill feelings with others. So, yeah, that's kind of have a sense of, "Look at me, I just break whatever, everything I do" with... And I've mentioned this on earlier podcasts, I never been physically abused, but had, I guess you could say emotional abuse from a close family member and that tends to, obviously damage your soul or am I going to have the nice person this day, or the not so nice? Or that tends to make you very uncertain about life.
Warwick F:
So, the point of that is you've got to deal with your stuff. Had mentoring by older Christian guys, some counseling, other things, you've got to... I'm very blessed to be married to a wonderful girl, an American girl that I met in Australia, we've been married like 32 years. And her love is... Obviously, God's love is unconditional which was certainly key to my coming back, but her unconditional love and my kids' has been massive, but the point of this is to echo what we're about to talk about, you've got to deal with your internal stuff. We all have it, and certainly, mine was pretty obvious, I was pretty damaged in the nineties, that's for sure. But yeah, I think this is so important. People may be believers or not believers, but dealing with your stuff in these sort of seven longings is so critical, so.
Gary S:
You said something Ben, when you started to talk about your story that is still like at the frontal lobe of my brain.
Ben B:
Yes.
Gary S:
You said, and it was sort of a drive-by comment as you were telling the deeper story, and you said you didn't like me, referring to yourself, you didn't like yourself. When you talk about acceptance, to be included, loved, approved as you are no matter what, it communicates your value - you didn’t value yourself. And I think, what our listeners experience, and if you're hearing this now, and this is how you feel, that is a good place to start, because so many people who go through crucibles of any stripe feel like, I mean Warwick described it just a little bit. "I'm a screw up. This didn't work out." And that not liking yourself is... I don't know how, and maybe it's possible, maybe it's not, it feels like it's not, is it possible really to sort of move on to some of these other longings if you don't get by? Is that not the first hurdle you have to clear is coming to the point where you like yourself, even if you have to reach, and dig to find out why? You have to like yourself before you can move out of the other things, is that fair?
Ben B:
It's almost like a longing that has to be built upon. I don't know if it's always the case where you have to experience that one first, but for example, one of the seven longings is the assurance of safety, to be protected and provided for financially, emotionally, physically. Growing up and even in life now, like financial security, safety, all of us are experiencing to some degree probably some fear or lack of safety with the pandemic we've been living in, and a lack of certainty there. And that one, I would say is not necessarily dependent on acceptance, but when all of the seven, we're experiencing the seven longings and the affirmation of our feelings and love and people entering our world, which we call attention and acceptance and assurance of safety, something happens there.
Ben B:
And most of that is experienced in relationships with God, with other people, with ourselves and a kind of satisfaction and thriving starts to happen. But to your point, what we've found is that acceptance is like the most common one that goes unmet, and is to so many people the most important one to be met that they're longing for and always looking for, regardless of location in the world, ethnicity, background, it's just this deep foundational longing.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Such a good point. Before we actually get into the seven, one of the things you mentioned in the book, just for people to get a bit of a level set of some of the numbers you talk about like 70% of teens say they have anxiety or depression, a major problem. Those at 16 to 24 is 63 times more lonely than those over 75 years old. Was it 76% of men and women aged 18 to 24 seek out pornography, it's a bit of a myth, it's just a guy problem, and it's probably more prevalent with guys, but just there's a lot of... Suicide is the second leading cause of death among young people. There's a lot of people who are hurting. It's not just, "Oh, I'm fine. I grew up in a quasi happy family." Well, that's great. Every family has its challenge, it's some more than others, but there's a lot of hurting people out there. This is almost an epidemic, in a sense why you wrote the book, is that a fair comment?
Ben B:
Yes. Everybody hurts, the classic saying, everybody hurts. Sometimes it seasonal or sometimes it's that happened years ago, or sometimes it's not as intense as it once was. And so, we've got to shift our understanding of what it means to hurt, because it's so easy to say, "Well, I never experienced abuse. So, who am I to have the right to say I've been hurt?" But what we've got to realize is that we live in a world that's pretty messed up and we see messed up things and we experience messed up things, and we were never intended to experience hurt and critical words or bullying or job losses, or seeing our friends die or our loved ones die. All of these things impact us all uniquely.
Ben B:
Basically, the easiest way I've learned to help people identify if they've experienced hurt that is still impacting them is to say, "Was there a negative experience I faced that I'm reacting to through certain thoughts, beliefs, behaviors, emotions? Is there any kind of residual impact of that?" And that's a way... And it could be even just thoughts like, "Oh, now I procrastinate a lot out of fear of failure, because it just feels like it takes so much energy." Or, This is a good one. We all have those meetings where somebody's like, "Hey, I would like to talk to you about something." And our reaction is, "Oh, what did I do wrong?"
Gary S:
Oh, no, right. I'm in trouble. Right. Right. Right.
Ben B:
Yes.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Ben B:
Which many psychologists will say is a PTSD response. Waiting for the other shoe to drop is a PTSD response. Because when we think about trauma, a lot of us may think about a war or some kind of sexual abuse or physical abuse, but what we've got to realize is that when we have negative experiences that are recurring that those things can also lead to these PTSD responses.
Warwick F:
I think another thing I think I want listeners to hear is one of the things that we say on Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible is your worst day is your worst day. So, listeners have heard this story many times, one of our early guests was a Navy SEAL that was paralyzed in a parachuting training accident. And I said, "Look, what I went through losing 150-year-old family business is nothing compared to what you went through." And he said, "You know what? Your worst day is your worst day. It's not a competition to see who suffered the most." We've had a guest on recently who lost two of his brothers to suicide. It's like, well, I have not been through anything like that. How in the world do you recover from that? It's the sense of guilt of "How could you do this to us? And I should have seen the signs."
Warwick F:
You can imagine the spiral of negative thoughts. And so, you might say, "Well, gosh, I didn't grow up like Ben. My parents were a little bit distant, but there wasn't abuse, there wasn't alcoholism. It was not bad." But maybe I wasn't affirmed as much and you can start feeling guilty, because I still have the issues, and I did went through just 25% of what Ben went through. Again, it's not a competition, that's also sort of a lie.
Warwick F:
So, let's talk about these seven longings, and you've got some great things. In the book, you write, "The greatest fulfillment in life comes when these seven longings are met in our lives, and we get to be a part of meeting these needs for others." And then obviously, this is from a faith perspective, "Jesus' promise of abundance can be experienced now, not just in the next life for you and for those you love and the process can start today. As we describe the seven longings that lead to your unwanted behaviors when they're unmet and to a life of wholeness when they're met, our hope is not just to bring about understanding, but to lead you to experience life transforming power that happens when each longing is met. So, there's a negative side of unwanted behaviors when it's met in a bad way and then the life of wholeness."
Warwick F:
So, let's talk about the first one, we've got acceptance and you're right, Everyone longs to be accepted, to be included, loved and approved as you are, no matter what. They almost build on each other, but you've talked about this a bit. This sense of acceptance is absolutely crucial. So, what's the negative and the positive, finding it in the wrong way and from your perspective, what is the right way to find acceptance?
Ben B:
Yes. With acceptance, it's all about knowing that our being matters. Not that our doing matters, that's appreciation, but who I am regardless of what I do, separating the who from the do, which a lot of the times, I think when we think about, this would be the negative side, trying to pursue acceptance, it's like, "Oh, I will do that to be accepted with those people. I'll partake in that behavior." Or, "I'll... That conversation." Or, "I'll join in on." The temptation could be, "Oh, people are making jokes about this or gossiping about this, and I'll join in and I want to feel accepted." And that's a very real pressure, but that's not true acceptance. That's about being accepted for what you do as opposed to who you are.
Ben B:
So, real acceptance is getting around people, developing relationships with people who truly love you and who truly accept you, and affirm who you are, who you were created to be, which is things that can be separated from what we do like our personality. You may be a humorous person, a more kind person, those aren't exclusive, but who you are. Are you funny? Are you kind? Are you fun to be around? Do you ask good questions? What is a core part of your personality and who you are? Do people delight in that and affirm that, and believe in you?
Warwick F:
Yeah. And maybe another way of putting it is do they accept you warts and all? You write and talk about, "Oh, if they really knew me," like in your case, in your upbringing, pornography, other things, "If they really knew me, they would reject me. It would be like in the Bible, leper, unclean, leave." And there's wisdom, you don't have to tell everybody... Obviously, you're writing a book, so there's a reason for this, but you don't have to tell everybody every dumb thing or shameful thing that you've been through, but when you sense that there's a few, wife, husband, parents, close friends, they know who you are, they know you've made mistakes, they know that you're broken, because we're all broken, but they love you anyway, that is incredibly healing. I'm not perfect, and they love me anyway.
Warwick F:
We all have our quirks, often quirks come out of brokenness being... We're all compulsive, not everybody's OCD, but we're all compulsive to varying degrees in certain areas wanting it to be a certain way, and if it's not that way, we get all anxious. Yeah, that sense of acceptance is crucial. So, let's move to appreciation and you write that, "Appreciation is the longing to be thanked or encouraged for what you have done." So, if acceptance is more the who, the loving me just because of who I am, appreciation sounds a bit more like maybe I'm artistic or good at athletics, whatever it is, my gifts and talent are appreciated rather than, "Yeah, that wasn't good enough. Yeah, okay, you scored a couple of touchdowns, but you could just scored 10 more and..." Yeah, it really was. Yeah. I guess acceptance and appreciation overlap. But talk a bit about appreciation, because that's sort of the next step beyond acceptance.
Ben B:
Yeah. This one's about knowing that what you do matters and knowing your doing matters and is about being thanked, being encouraged, being appreciated despite the quality of the performance. A lot of times, we want to give people positive feedback and encouragement if they crushed it, if they did such a good job, but then there's a deficit when they tried and gave it their all, yet didn't do so well. What this helps somebody believe is that they're capable. Throughout the years, I've become more and more convinced that there's not such a thing as a lazy person, but just a person who hasn't been believed in and appreciated and encouraged, and given that kind of affirmation and feedback for their effort. I think it's easy to think about how good it feels when we do something for our boss or serve somebody that we're supervising and make time for them, and if they're like, "Thank you so much." That feels awesome hearing that thank you, but if you find yourself doing things and not hearing that, you're like, "Am I even appreciated? Do you care what I'm doing?"
Warwick F:
Being appreciated for who you are, the effort that you are showing irrespective of the result, it's, "I appreciate your heart and what you're trying to do," critical. We move to the next one, affection. And here, you say, "affection is longing to be cared for with gentle touch and emotional need." And you've got some horrific stories in here about babies who were not touched and caressed, they can almost die without that. It's critical when we were very young to have that and well obviously later. So, talk about why... Obviously, it has to be in appropriate relationships and all, but why affection, that gentle touch and that emotional engagement? Talk about what that is and why it's so important.
Ben B:
I think that is evidenced by 2020. The fact that we're physical beings and seeing that working remotely and Zoom and not giving high-fives and not hugs and things like that really took a toll on people. The social distancing which is really physical distancing, there are just so many statistics, for example, adults struggling with anxiety and depression skyrocketed from 11% to 41% during 2020. And I think a big part of it had to do with that physical distancing, not having the embodied presence of another human being. And there's something in us as physical beings that needs the physical touch and encouragement and hugs, and sitting there with someone else, but then also the emotional engagement. One of the things I've realized is that loneliness is not a lack of friends, it's a lack of meaningful connection.
Warwick F:
Mm-hmm.
Ben B:
And when we sit with somebody, and we're talking about our hardships, our stress, the good things, the bad things, we feel known and understood, affirmed in that struggle. We don't feel like I'm the only one, or it's like people enter into those hard things and affirm it, but even the good things, it does something in our soul.
Gary S:
I often say to guests, and I said it to you, Ben, before we got on the recording, my role as co-host of the show is kind of like the color commentator in a sporting event, right? Warwick is the play-by-play guy. He's going to ask all the questions, and I'm here to sort of draw on the screen on the replay to make sure listeners understand what they're watching, hearing, seeing, and I just want to wrap to make sure that listeners understand, we're going through these seven longings and their definitions, because each one of them, as you hear them, apply them, think of applying them to your crucibles. We're talking about these in the context of crucible experiences, and lack of some of these things can lead to crucible experiences. Presence of these things can help you move beyond crucible experiences. So, I just want to make sure that the listener understands why we're taking the time to unpack in such detail what it is Ben has written in his book, because it's critical to help you understand your crucible, and to help you move beyond your crucible.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So, well said, Gary. Absolutely. Lack of acceptance, lack of appreciation, lack of affection, they can cause crucibles in your life and as we often say, and others say hurt people hurt people.
Gary S:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Warwick F:
Statistically, those who have been abused have high proportion will abuse others. Those who have been maybe grown up in alcoholic homes, I would assume a not small percentage, maybe follow the same path. It's hard to understand how you could follow the path to cause such pain, but that does tend to happen. So, yeah, you don't deal with your stuff, you will hurt your friends and family, that is inevitable. Such an important point. So, we've got acceptance, appreciation, affection, access, I find a really interesting one. You say, "Access is the longing to have the consistent, emotional and physical presence of key figures." I think you're right, you can have people that are "around you," but they're not really present. They're not engaging you. You don't really... So, talk a bit about what access is.
Ben B:
When I think of access and the people I've worked with, we're talking about the negative side. One guy, an example, here, I'll just get real specific, one guy I've worked with struggled for years and he was a ministry leader with, "I just feel like a burden. I feel annoying to people," et cetera, et cetera. And we're like, "This is surprising to us, not in a shaming way, but we're surprised because you're awesome and you show up and you're so loving, and you're the last person we would think that is annoying." And for him, it all went back to early as a kid, he would often wake up early, four years old, so excited to see his dad and his dad wasn't accessible. Physically, he was, he was there, but he would run downstairs, his dad was drinking coffee and reading the newspaper.
Ben B:
And his dad would say things like, "Go away, you're being annoying." And it was like, "Don't disturb dad in the morning. He's not accessible." And that belief, that negative experience that hurts which led to this view of himself that was playing out in all of these ways in his life, in his relationships, in his leadership, in his view of himself, and conversely, when you have experiences of accessible people. I think about my life, my dad was gone a lot traveling for ministry and work, oftentimes not accessible, but then emotionally, just kind of closed off, little disengaged, that translated to similar thoughts to the guy I just shared, but what healed it and changed it all was having these new mentors in my life that were older and who became like these spiritual fathers and mentors to me that were always accessible and helped me believe that I was important. And then of course, God always being accessible, I can talk to him at all times, and he cares about my thoughts and opinions, and just these new experiences, ultimately, relationships can cause us to hurt the most and to heal the most.
Warwick F:
Well said. So, the next one is attention and you write, "Attention is the longing to be known and understood with someone entering your world." And you say, "By this, we mean someone taking time to recognize and participate in what's important to you, such as your opinions, dream, desires, interest." So, talk about what this one is, attention.
Ben B:
This one really gets into what makes someone tick. Why they do what they do? Why they care about certain things, their hobbies, their interests. One example, one of my friends Daniel has lived this out so well with his kids, and here's a very specific example. A couple of years ago, they had saw one of the new Jurassic Park movies and were so into dinosaurs and T-Rexs and acting like dinosaurs, and he was ordering them dinosaurs and things like that. So, what did he do? He secretly ordered this T-Rex costume and dressed up like a T-Rex, and they pull up on the bus. He's dressed up as a T-Rex chasing after them, and it was just like this ultimate experience of, "My dad knows me. He cares about my thoughts and my opinions." It's so cool to see them continue, they're all growing up, and they're confident in what they care about and their opinions and thoughts and beliefs, even if that doesn't happen for us growing up, it can happen now in the future.
Warwick F:
Finding people that care about what you care about. So, my kids are two boys and a girl, I've got two boys that are very into sports. So, whether it's Washington Football Team or I guess, the Washington Commanders as they're now called, they're big soccer fans, Manchester United, I will sit and watch if I can, not because the world's going to end if they win or lose, but it's being part of what your kids enjoy, and that's obviously critical. So, as we get down to the last two, affirmation, this is one of my highest values. It talks about affirmation of feelings and other needs we all share as human beings is a longing to have our feelings affirmed, validated, or confirmed by others. This has got to be one. They're all important, but this is a big one, right? Feeling affirmed, so talk about this.
Ben B:
Yes. A passage of scripture that I've love from the Bible is, "Mourn with those who mourn and celebrate with those who celebrate." As human beings, we like to celebrate with people we're not jealous of. It's very hard when somebody gets the thing we want, whether it's the promotion or the new car or the relationship, or the vacation or whatever, the child, it's hard for us to celebrate with those who celebrate, but there's not supposed to be any ifs, ands, or buts about it. And it's hard to mourn with those who mourn, especially when we don't understand, especially when we disagree with people.
Ben B:
I think we saw that all throughout 2020, and these dumpster fires happening on social media of people not mourning with people who mourn and just turning into fighting and all of that, but that's one of the things I love about Jesus is he tells us to mourn with those who mourn, and he mourned with those who mourned. And it means sitting with people. It means when people come to us with a problem, or we go to somebody with a problem, not trying to fix it, not trying to change it, affirming the experience, even if we don't agree with it.
Warwick F:
And that's so critical what you're saying. Certainly, guys do that a lot. Your wife either comes and tells you, "Boy, I had a hard day." Or, "This relationship at work or with the kids." And so, you go into, "Well, did you do this or that?" Or, "You shouldn't enable." Or, "How did you let the kids get away with this?" And often, you go into fix it mode rather than, "Boy, I'm so sorry, that just sounds awful. Wow. That has got to be tough."
Ben B:
Yes.
Warwick F:
Maybe you ask a question or two of coaching, if you want to at the end, but rather than getting to fix it mode, just listen and by your words, show that you understand. And a lot of us, certainly guys, we just don't do that. We get into fix it mode, which is not the way our wives or significant others want to be cared for like ever, pretty much. They want you to just listen and affirm their feelings.
Ben B:
Yes and this is one of the most crucial things we can do to be a safe person, for people to trust us. If we want people to trust us and to come to us with their problems or the things that maybe they aren't going to share with anybody else, or have been holding onto... There's that phrase, secrets that will take to our grave-
Warwick F:
Mm-hmm.
Ben B:
... that weighs us down and creates some much guilt and pain. And 11 years ago, when I got into therapy and recovery and all of this stuff, I committed to a life without secrets. And let me tell you what, as hard as it was to share my deepest, darkest secrets, the stuff I thought I'd never tell anyone, all kinds of stuff, and to be met with the affirmation of the pain from people, to be still loved and accepted for who I was and people not change their view of me, that was just so powerful.
Warwick F:
And it leads into the last one, assurance of safety, because when you have, obviously, you've got to be physically safe and financially safe and all, but when you can share your feelings and your secrets, as you put it with whether it's a counselor or some close friends, loved ones and they love you anyway, it makes in a sense, the ultimate safe space, right? You feel, "They love me anyway, and yet they know my insecurities and my challenges." And that is sort of like a flood of grace, a flood of refreshing water that soothes the pain, that helps to burn out the flaming embers, right? When you feel that love and acceptance, that is the ultimate safe space in a sense, when you feel that, when you are known, even despite the fact that they know how broken you are.
Ben B:
Yes. And so, often anxiety and stress comes as a result of the lack of assurance, of safety and fear, and fearing what's going to happen and all of those kind of things. I think of one of the things Josh McDowell, and I have seen just with many leaders we've known who have fallen morally or burnt out, one of the key things is there's a sense of external and internal pressure. And I've heard the phrase, "I felt like it all depended on me," so many times. External pressure of the expectations of others, of the deadlines, of the raising the money, of the finances and then internal pressure of, "Well, I'm the only one who can do this. It all depends on me. I've got to do all of these things." That right there is not a safe environment that's going on within somebody's soul. There's no assurance of safety there.
Ben B:
And so, bringing other people into that and sharing what's going on and having people support you in that, and trusting that actually, when it comes down to it, there's a lot of things outside of our control and trying to control it is what leads to so much stress and anxiety and pressure. This is wild, 90% of diseases, doctors say are caused by stress. And stress comes from that internal and external pressure and that lack of assurance of safety and all of this stuff that we put on ourselves or that other people put on us. And when we can have this assurance of that a lot is not in our control, as a Christian, I believe God is in control, and he loves each one of us and has a plan for us, and he protects us and provides for us, and shifts a much more... When we release control and realize how much control we don't have, and that people are there for us and want to help us, and that we matter, it really helps us feel a lot more safe and less full of worry.
Gary S:
Having reached the number seven in the list of seven, if we were indeed on a flight, we'd say that ended the inflight entertainment, right? The captain has begun the dissent, turned on the fasten seatbelt sign, and it's getting closer to the time that we have to land the plane, but there's a couple of things I want to do before I then turn it back over to Warwick. One, I want you to be able, Ben to let listeners know how they can get ahold of you, how they can learn about the Resolution Movement, they can find out more about that and engage some of the things. And then when you're done with that, there's a question I want to ask you to tie some of this together. So, tell our listeners how they can find you, and then I'll hit you with a question.
Ben B:
Yes, resolutionmovement.org. You can find links there to all of our social media things helping people overcome hurts and struggles and thrive. We've got video series, videos, podcasts up there, free email series. And then me personally, I love talking to people on social media, direct messages, all of that, I'm on there a lot, I'm @benvbennett, BenV, V as in Virginia, Bennett, I'm on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, all of those places.
Gary S:
TikTok, are you on TikTok?
Ben B:
Resolution Movement, we are on TikTok, yes.
Gary S:
All right. Well, that's relevance right there. Here's the question I want to hit you with, because at the beginning from your bio, I read this fascinating fact that what the Resolution Movement does is you offer freedom, healing in life of thriving through biblical, psychological and neuroscientific principles, then when you and I talked before we pressed record, you had said something to me and I wrote it down to make sure I got it right, you said, "As we're going through dealing with the struggles of our lives," dealing with the crucibles of our lives, as we're walking through these seven longings and how to apply them to our lives, you said, "If we only use intellect, not experiential past, our experiential life to fight these struggles, it's like fighting a fire with a squirt gun." Can you, in a nutshell, connect this idea of how biblical, psychological and neuroscientific principles all come together to help us, help you, help people move beyond their crucibles?
Ben B:
Yes. Here's an example that I've never given before, but we'll see how it goes.
Gary S:
All right. Breaking news, we've got breaking news on Beyond the Crucible. Excellent.
Ben B:
If you think about how it was trying to learn how to write back in first grade or whatever with your hand and learning the movements and shapes of the letters, and how to spell and how long that took, and how now you do it almost without thinking about it, writing. What is happening there is in your brain, you are creating these fixed neurological pathways, kind of like muscle memory. The same thing happens when we have negative experiences in life, and the thoughts we tell ourselves, the beliefs, the worldview, the styles of relating, the unhealthy behaviors, stress, anxiety, things that are developed create these fixed pathways in our brain, kind of like muscle memory. So, the challenge we face is unlearning that, it's almost like unlearning how to write with your dominant hand and relearning how to write with your non-dominant, and that can happen.
Ben B:
Neuroplasticity shows that the neurons that fire apart wire apart, new pathways developed the neurons that fire together wire together. The Bible mentions the mind, think, believe over 580 times, huge emphasis on our brains. This is how God has created us to heal. Everything learned can be unlearned, but so often we try to fix it with our intellectual brain, our prefrontal cortex high reasoning, "Okay, I'm going to get over this hurt. I'm going to stop doing that." It's like saying, "I'm going to learn how to write without ever having the experience of using your hand in learning how to write." What we need to do is have new experiences in relationship and practice, because the stronger part of our brain, the amygdala, the fight-or-flight part of our brain where our core beliefs, our experiences are stored is there, and there's more neurological pathways running from there to the prefrontal cortex, the higher reasoning portion than the other way around.
Ben B:
So, that's why it's like trying to fight fire, the most powerful part of the brain with a squirt gun. So, what we need is both and the integration there. So, what that looks like is I may have had this unmet longing, and I have those experiences, negative experiences that are stored, and I have those lives, but what I now need is to step forward, get in safe relationships, find those longings met in healthy ways, love, acceptance, affirmation of feelings, and to meet that in the lives of other people. And that is actually physically changing my brain, and the more and more I do that, it actually becomes a new default pattern. So, what happened in my life over the years with anxiety and addictions and all of those kind of things, I realized, to put this together that yes, I had this pain, this trauma, these lies, these default ways of responding that had been hardwired in my brain.
Ben B:
I got around couple of safe people, committed to a life without secrets for years, texting one another, reaching out to one another, "Oh, I'm sensing the rejection coming on." Or, "I just got cut off in traffic, and I felt rejected by somebody. Oh, I'm angry as a result of that, I'm not feeling safe." Connecting to somebody in that moment, experiencing the fulfillment of that longing, reaching out to God, sitting with God, experiencing his love. What did that do? Well, over time, those new pathways became the new default way of responding. So, rather than spiraling out of control and going all the way down to the shadow side as some of us may call it, or these unhealthy behaviors, I started reaching out and finding what I was truly looking for each and every day.
Ben B:
And now, that's the default way of responding, not all the time, but when I experience an unmet longing... It's met longings that lead to healing and thriving. So, those unmet longings lead to these unhealthy patterns, these lies, unhealthy patterns. Met longings, the seven longings going met lead to healing and thriving, our minds being renewed, rewired, and what we're truly longing for.
Warwick F:
That is so well said. That is a great summary. Thank you so much.
Gary S:
It doesn't happen often. Ben, but Warwick is still contemplating what you said to the point that he's not asking you a follow up question, which is not the way the show usually ends, it's usually a final question, but seriously, that shows the depth and the import that you're speaking about. So, thank you for that. And thank you listener for spending this time with us. And please remember, we get it, you hopefully heard it throughout this conversation, both from Warwick and from Ben, we understand how painful your crucibles can be. We unpacked here why they're so painful in so many cases, but they do not have to be the end of your story.
Gary S:
Your crucibles are not the end of your story. If you learn the lessons of them, if you get those longings met, not just intellectually, but experientially, those crucibles and the information that you take from them can be the beginning of a new story, and it can be the most rewarding story of your life, because where it leads when all is said and done, as you walk out that journey where it leads beyond your crucible is to a life of significant.There are some days when we day dream of being a great inventor or a great visionary. Look what we could accomplish if our idea became reality! We lie in bed at night dreaming of what could be, of what might be. But then we wake up, and reality hits. Who are we kidding? We are not Walt Disney; with Mickey Mouse, feature-length films and Disneyland and Walt Disney World. We are not Reed Hastings of Netflix with his ever-present video-streaming service and Oscar-winning movies. We are certainly not Steve Jobs of Apple fame with Mac computers, the iPhone, iPad, and iTunes; not to mention movies like Toy Story that were made from Jobs’ association with Pixar.
Reflecting on all that such visionary world-changers have accomplished can leave us feeling discouraged and overwhelmed. It is all too difficult. It is absolutely impossible.
What this negative self-talk misses is that we do not have to be Walt Disney, Reed Hastings or Steve Jobs. We just have to be ourselves. True success is not measured by how many millions or billions our vision turns into, or in how many people are impacted. It is measured by how much that vision means to us. If even one life is affected by our idea, our vision, it should be enough.
So how do we bring our vision to reality, to bring our idea from day dream to an actual product, company or nonprofit?
Perhaps you wonder what if the world had this. For those who have gone through crucibles, tough times and setbacks, maybe out of your pain or feeling stuck you have an idea that might help people.
The key to your idea growing from an ember to a forest fire is that it has to start with passion. Walt Disney had a passion for telling stories through cartoons. Reed Hastings felt DVDs offered an opportunity for a subscription service. Steve Jobs was fascinated by technology and the promise of personal computers.
It might not be the end product or the end goal; you might not even be sure that the idea will work. But try something. Even if it fails you will learn something. Steve Jobs had many successes but in his NeXT venture, his high-end computers were too expensive and didn’t sell.
Visions tend to have a life of their own. Five, ten let alone twenty-year plans are difficult to craft. Planning can be very helpful in executing the various stages of your vision, but planning the growth of the vision itself is very challenging.
Once you start the first step, inevitably one idea, one accomplishment will lead to another idea and another accomplishment. Yes, there may be days where it feels like one step forward and two steps back, but forward momentum, trying new ideas and a willingness to experiment (yes, even fail) will produce progress over time.
As you go from one idea to another, one product to another, and see your company or nonprofit growing, that forward momentum will fuel your passion, creativity and persistence.
It is easy to mourn the losses. What we need to do is celebrate the wins. It is easy to say in hindsight that that first win was not that big a deal and that the challenges and obstacles will only get greater. But by celebrating what we have accomplished we will realize just how resourceful and creative we are, which will help energize us for the days ahead.
All great visions, great ventures have a great team beside them. We can’t do everything, nor do we have all the gifts and talents required to grow our visions and have our visions become reality. A great team will be as passionate about the vision as we are. They will be creative, will be optimistic and will find a way to overcome obstacles. Their persistence, passion and commitment will fuel and bolster our own persistence, passion and commitment.
What separates great innovators, and great visionaries, from others is their willingness to try something and even fail. They are passionate about their visions. They may not have everything figured out, but they are willing to try something and to start somewhere.
You know Walt Disney, the guy who invented Mickey Mouse and created the modern theme park. You’ve heard of Reed Hastings, who grew Netflix from a DVD subscription service to an Oscar-winning film studio. And, of course, there’s Steve Jobs, inventor of the Mac and iPhone. But do you know they all started out with visions much smaller than the heights they would someday reach?
Host Warwick Fairfax and cohost Gary Schneeberger discuss in this episode why you shouldn’t be intimidated by the inventiveness of these and other great visionaries. You should follow their example and achieve your own dreams rooted in your vision and talents. How? Start with an idea, fuel it with your passion and then just try something.
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership. Each of these three people, Walt Disney, Reed Hastings and Steve Jobs, they didn't start out with this billion-dollar mega vision that says, "I have an idea. Let me try something." And each of them had setbacks. So, I think we just need to unlearn what we think of these "overnight successes." They didn't have a big vision. They just had an idea. It started with an idea, and then it grew from there.
Gary S:
Yes, you heard that right. The guy who invented Mickey Mouse and created the modern theme park, the man who grew Netflix from a DVD subscription service to an Oscar-winning film studio, and the inventor of the Mac and iPhone, all started out with visions much smaller than the heights they would someday reach. How did they do it? That's what we examine this week.
Gary S:
Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show. Warwick and I discussed in this episode why you shouldn't be intimidated by the inventiveness of great visionaries. You should follow their example and achieve your own dreams rooted in your vision and talent. How? Start with an idea, fuel it with your passion, and then just try something. Those are the first three steps of eight unpacked here and in Warwick's latest blog. And here's a tip, you'll want to pay special attention to point number eight.
Gary S:
Why we're talking about inventiveness, listener, is that one of the ways to move beyond our crucibles. And we've had scores of guests come on the show to describe this. Warwick himself has described this many times. One of the ways to move beyond your crucible is you hatch a vision. And then you proceed to launch into that vision, pursue that vision. This episode, this conversation is about what if you think that vision might be out of your league, out of your reach. Maybe you have this idea that seems too big for you to accomplish.
Gary S:
And what we want to talk about here is that that's not true. It's not too big for you to accomplish. And in fact, we're going to go through several steps, eight steps in Warwick's blog to talk about how you can begin the process of putting one foot in front of the other, and pursuing that vision of inventiveness. All visions at some level are inventive. They're all something new. It's new to you if it's not new to everybody else.
Gary S:
So, that's what we're going to talk about here. That's the long preamble to set up why we're spending time at Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible talking about the subject of inventiveness and how it applies to you. So, Warwick, tell us a little bit about this blog that you've written, why you chose the subject and what you're hoping to impart to readers of the blog and today on the podcast, to listeners of the show.
Warwick F:
Yeah, thanks, Gary. I mean, sometimes you think of being a visionary and getting some amazing things done. And you look at some of the great inventors, some of the great visionaries in popular culture. You might think of Walt Disney or Reed Hastings with Netflix or Steve Jobs with Apple and you're thinking, "Well, I'm not Walt Disney. I'm not Reed Hastings. I'm not Steve Jobs." I mean, and probably the hardest time to be thinking about this is when for many of our listeners, at some point, they've been in the depths of despair, the bottom of the pit after a terrible crucible.
Warwick F:
And one of the one of the ways to move out of that is yes, you've got to forgive yourself and learn the lessons of the crucible and all that. But at some point, to move forward, one of the most healing things is if you can use your pain for a purpose, figure out, okay, is there something good I can make out of what I've been through and for most of the guests we've had on this podcast, I'd say almost all, that's been true, a vision has been formed eventually.
Warwick F:
It may take years, but it's come out of just challenging times. So, whether that to you or maybe you haven't had a massive crucible, maybe you've just hit a speed bump, maybe you're stuck, maybe you just feel like is this all there is to life, somehow you want to do something new.
Warwick F:
You look at some of the great inventors and visionaries and you go, "Wow, let's just forget about it. I mean, there's no way, there's no hope." And so, what we want to say is a couple of things. I think one of them is it misunderstands the life journey, the career journey of these great visionaries. You always just, it's like people in Hollywood, actors and actresses, it's like, gosh, how can they be so successful? Well, there were years of failed times when they were trying to get into a movie, and they didn't get the role and being a waiter or waitress, I mean, the overnight success, in most cases it's not overnight.
Warwick F:
So, that's really the premise of our discussion here is, how can you actually make your vision happen and figure out what the vision is and why you shouldn't just give up and why you shouldn't compare yourself with some of these great visionaries that you might have heard of.
Gary S:
Right. And it's easy. The "easy part" is the dream. We all dream. We have dreams, but we also have doubts. We dream but we doubt. And what we're talking about here I think is when you have the dream, you have the vision or the starts of a vision. But then you have this doubt. And then the doubt gets sprinkled with a couple of dollops of fear. Doubt and fear together can lead to serious stagnation when it comes to moving beyond the crucible, particularly as you hatch a new vision and try to move forward. So, what we're trying to do here today is to encourage folks, equip folks to know that not only is it possible, but here's some ways it is possible.
Gary S:
And it's interesting, Warwick. You talked about some sort of well-known people who've been very successful visionaries and you feel you don't measure up. You also talked about some people who have busted through after failing and failing and failing and failing. And I went and found some quotes as I like to do. We do these episodes where it's just the two of us talking.
Gary S:
Here's a great quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson. He said this and this is, if there was a poetic theme to what we're talking about, it's this. "Do not be too timid and squeamish about your actions. All life is an experiment," Emerson said. "The more experiments you make, the better." That's a pretty good jumping off point to talk about the idea that, yeah, okay. We do have dreams. They are sometimes stalled by doubt and fear. But what if we have the gumption as Emerson says here, What if we have the gumption to press forward? What if we try?
Warwick F:
That's exactly right. I mean, I think with every great visionary, they have the gumption, they have the courage to try. So, you can get in a negative tailspin of, I'm not worthy. What happened to me is awful. I made a mistake and I just need to hide for the rest of my life, 30, 40, 50 years. I'm surrounding myself with people. Hopefully you're not, but some of us do, who say, ah, you'll never make it. It's hopeless. Give it up. What if we fail and I mean, I could have written a blog that's the eight ways to certainly fail. And it will be probably the reverse of the steps we had.
Warwick F:
And many of us know those steps very well. We just, it's every day. But I think what's important is we need to relearn, if you will, or reimagine some of these great visionaries. Because the key hallmark they had is they weren't afraid of failure and they were willing to try. They had this passion and this energy. But I think one of the things we need to unlearn is you tend to think of the amazing things each of these three people I mentioned had. And it fundamentally misunderstands who they were.
Warwick F:
So, Walt Disney, for instance, when he started in the '20s and early '30s, he was just thinking, "I love animation." It was a relatively new field then, cartoons. "I think I can make a cartoon that's better and tells a better story." And he was an animator, graphic artist. He routed himself at other graphic artists. And off they went. There wasn't some big vision other than I think I can do this better.
Warwick F:
Now, it grew step by step. And I think around 1937, he made Snow White. He bet the farm and put all of his money into it. Everybody said, it'll never work. Nobody will pay attention an hour and a half movie about a cartoon, And it's in color and it'll hurt your eyes, et cetera.
Warwick F:
Well, it was a big success. And then from thereon, he had Disneyland and then Disney World, which Disney World was built. He conceived it while he was alive. When he died, I think it's '66, was built later in like '71 or something. But we think of Disneyland and Disney World and all the movies and everything he did, but we forget that, at the beginning was just I think cartoons could tell a better story. Reed Hastings, when he started, I think around 1997, sometime around there, his vision was DVDs are just coming out. It wasn't dominant yet. VHS tapes were, the people that go to Blockbuster or their local video rental store, as then was.
Warwick F:
But it's like, well, I think with DVDs, yeah, it wouldn't work with VHS, but DVDs, maybe we can kind of have a subscription mail service, where people just kind of get it in the mail. And then when they're done, they send it back. And then we get them another one. That wasn't some massive vision. It was like, I think we can do something better with video rentals using DVDs. Well then, it expanded to online streaming service when the technology came. And then now, he's doing Hollywood level movies and getting Oscars.
Warwick F:
Steve Jobs, when he conceived of Apple back in the late '70s, early '80s, he just had this vision that he loved technology. And back then, personal computers didn't exist. You get it in a kit and assemble it yourself. I think there's probably a better way of doing this. And eventually, Apple I didn't work out too well. But Apple II took off. And then from there, we've got Macs and iPads and iPods. And he also did a little stint with Pixar and Toy Story.
Warwick F:
But at the beginning was like this whole technology thing and personal computers, maybe there's a better way of doing it than a bunch of very tech savvy people assembling kits in their home. Maybe there's a better way.
Warwick F:
But each of these three people, Walt Disney, Reed Hastings and Steve Jobs, they didn't start out with this billion-dollar mega vision that says, "I have an idea. Let me try something." And each of them had setbacks. So, I think we just need to unlearn what we think of these "overnight successes." They didn't have a big vision. They just had an idea. It started with an idea, and then it grew from there.
Gary S:
Right. And if this podcast was being recorded 10 years ago, speaking of technology, I would have to say, so listener, you don't know what this is, but now that vinyl records are back in style, there's a thing you can do as you're playing a record, you can pick the needle up and move it back a little bit. And I think what we need to do when we're examining these people that you've talked about, the Steve Jobs and the Walt Disneys, we focus too much on the end game, the huge success. And we're like, "Oh, I could never do that."
Gary S:
But let's pick up the needle, bring it back on the record, put it down at the beginning, we can all do what they did at the start, which is begin, which is try.
Gary S:
Here's a quote from Vincent van Gogh. I've never heard this before, love it. He said, "What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?" And that's really what we're talking about here. It's having the courage to try, it's having the courage to attempt. And as you indicated, Warwick, point one in your blog is it starts with an idea. Sounds like it's almost too rudimentary. But it's got to start there.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, the first idea is it does start with an idea. Now, maybe it comes out of your crucible, and it's like, "Gosh, I went through this, and I wish there was some way that I could help people not go through what I went through." Or maybe you just feel like you're just moving along in life and you're just floating along and you don't feel like you really taking charge and you're thinking, "I wonder what would happen if the world had this?" You know?
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
It could be something in your neighborhood, with friends. It doesn't have to be big. Everybody's idea, whether it's Tupperware, it starts with things back in the '50s maybe. You gather women together and they would show here are these easy ways to store food. I mean, grand visions, they tend to start pretty small, but it starts with an idea. And you think, gosh, what if. That's the key. It starts with an idea.
Warwick F:
And what you have to do when the idea comes is put away the knives and sledgehammers because what will happen is, oh, it will never work. Oh, it won't happen. And you just squash it before the level plot has grown. You've got to be disciplined. It's like, you have that idea. But don't crush it before you've even thought about it. Ruminate on it a bit.
Gary S:
One of the things I love about this blog that you did and this conversation that we're going to have is that it's a step by step process. It starts with an idea. And we'll get to the second point in a minute, but to your point that you just made about, don't give up too early. Here's what Thomas Edison, who is a little bit of an example of someone who didn't give up too early. Thomas Edison said, "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."
Gary S:
And Edison is an example of someone who realized how close he was to success. And he said something along the lines of he didn't fail trying to make the light bulb. He just improved it like a thousand times or whatever. He just kept after it. And that's the idea of you have an idea, to give you the energy and the fuel to stay after it, to be an Edison, to be a Walt Disney, to be a Steve Jobs, your second point is you have to fuel that idea with passion. You need to pour a little passion fire on that idea, don't you?
Warwick F:
Yeah. And passion will give you persistence. I mean, Edison's another great example. He experimented-
Gary S:
Oh wait, I'm going to interrupt you there. Because listener, listen to what Warwick just said. That's what we call at Crucible Leadership, a Warwick-ism. Passion will breed persistence. Write that down somewhere. Put it on a bumper sticker and put that on your car. That'll tweet as they say. Passion will create persistence. Sorry, I didn't mean to, but that was a good one.
Warwick F:
All these folks that we talked about, Walt Disney is a great example. He had a passion for entertainment, creativity. And he wasn't willing to give up when he was creating Snow White in 1937.
Warwick F:
Everybody said, "There's no way. It makes no sense." When he was thinking about amusement parks in the late '40s and early '50s, and he launched Disneyland in the '50s, everybody said, "Well, this is lunacy, again." Amusement parks were unsafe places with alcohol and sometimes disreputable people. Not a place that you bring kids. And so, he says, "Well, I'm going to keep it clean. And I'm going to charge a cover charge to get in." So, you don't charge a cover charge for amusement parks.
Warwick F:
So, everybody said, "This is lunacy, and it won't work." All the conventional wisdom. So, that's where passion is so important, because it will help get through setbacks, each one of these. Like Steve Jobs, yeah, Apple II was a great success, while Apple I wasn't so much. Apple II was his first big success. The Mac was great. While there was something called the Lisa, which probably about as much people have heard the Lisa as people have heard about the Edsel, not many. It bombed.
Warwick F:
He launched a thing after his time with Apple ended in a sort of a boardroom fight. He launched a thing called Next, which was this high-end computer, very complicated. It was very expensive. And people didn't want it. This is more like for universities and high end uses. Well, it bombed. But he didn't let that hold him back. And what kept him going is his passion. Each of these folks had passion.
Gary S:
So, that was point two. Point one, have an idea. You have an idea. Point two is to fuel that idea with your passion. Passion breeds persistence, copyright 2022, Warwick Fairfax. But the next step, point three in your blog, point three that we're discussing here now, is where the rubber meets the road. You've got an idea, you've got passion. And I love how simply you phrase this. You phrase it in your blog as simply try something. That's step three.
Warwick F:
It may be if you forget everything else, it may be arguably the most important step because there are some people that are born entrepreneurs. They kind of act and then think later. I mean, I'm somebody as we'll probably discuss later, I'm a very reflective strategic planning contemplative. I tend to think, think, think, think, think, think some more and then maybe stick my baby toe in the water for a second. I'm not somebody that leaps before they think. So, I do get that it's hard to try something.
Warwick F:
But at some point, and really, whether you're that kind of try something and then change course later. And there are some people that are like that. And that's great. If that works for you, more power to you. If you're like me and a bit more cautious or a lot more cautious, either way can still work. But at the end of the day, whether it takes two minutes, two hours, hopefully not two years, but let's say, two minutes, two hours or two months, you've got to try something.
Warwick F:
Yes, I have a strategic plan. I worked on Wall Street. You don't necessarily mortgage your whole house, your kids' education, all the rest of it. So, if it fails, you've had it. Yes, this whole concept of moderate risk taking. And some ideas cost more than others. But you've got to try something. And as I've mentioned before, each of these folks, they had failings. One I talk about in the book with-
Gary S:
And that book, wait. Nobody knows. What's the book?
Warwick F:
Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead A Life of Significance. Yeah. So, in the book, I talked about Walt Disney. And before Mickey Mouse, he had an animated character in I think it was in the '20s that was doing really rather well, Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, household name. Everybody's heard of Oswald the Lucky Rabbit. So, he signed a contract with this distributor in New York. He took the train from Los Angeles to New York, because that's what you did. People didn't fly in the late '20s, early '30s, at least not much. Not certainly commercially.
Warwick F:
This guy was a lawyer. He was very smart. And there was some fine print that Walt, the animator didn't really understand that swindled him out of Oswald the Lucky Rabbit. And the guy behind his back took away most of his animators. At that point, he could have said, "Look, I'll try this whole animation thing. Clearly, I must be clueless about business. I mean, how can I be so dumb? And I've lost Oswald the Lucky Rabbit. I've lost the core of my team, probably time to give up."
Warwick F:
But yet, he didn't. He was willing to accept failure on the train on the way back. He was doodling three circles on a piece of paper. And he said to his wife, Lilly, "What about a mouse, Mortimer Mouse?" And she wisely said, "Mortimer is not doing it for me. How about Mickey Mouse?" He said, "You know what, Lilly? You're right, Mickey."
Warwick F:
Well, he tried something. His passion and his persistence wasn't ... He was willing to push through the devastating loss of most of his team and Oswald the Lucky Rabbit. So, it's that idea, you got to try something, but you'll hit setbacks, not hopefully as cataclysmic a scale of losing Oswald the Lucky Rabbit. But it's that idea of try something and if it doesn't work, okay.
Warwick F:
He made some mistakes, something he learned a lesson of his crucible, have a good lawyer, have a business partner. Later on, he brought his brother on board. He had more of a head of the business. He learned the lessons of his crucible, but you've got to try something and not being willing to fail. And that is the key thing. Try something and if it fails, it's okay. Keep going. Learn from it. Try something else.
Gary S:
Yeah. Because whether or not it fails, ultimately, is a decision you have to make and it doesn't fail until you say it fails, and keep pushing it. And there's a real world example I want to talk about here for me right now. And I haven't talked to you about this even as we were preparing for the show, let alone just in conversations we have.
Gary S:
And I'm going to walk through the first three steps in this idea of how it came to me and it's funny. I'll preface this story by saying, so the name Dennis Gillan is where the story begins. And Dennis Gillan was a guest we had on the show a few weeks back. He is the founder of the Half a Sorrow Foundation. And he's a suicide prevention speaker.
Gary S:
And I am dangerously close to mentioning Dennis Gillan in every episode of the podcast. It's like Warwick's a huge tennis fan. And you may have noticed every now and then, he'll mention Roger Federer. Well, Dennis Gillan is my Roger Federer because I keep talking about him. But here's why I'm talking about him.
Gary S:
So, it starts with an idea. When we had Dennis Gillan on as a guest, actually even before that, before we had him on as a guest, the reason we had him on as a guest is I read an article he wrote on Entrepreneur Magazine about something he calls the Purple File. And it's a file that he has created full of attaboys and affirmations and successes and thanks that he gets from people when he speaks. And this is big Purple File. It's a literal file that he keeps.
Gary S:
And I was so moved by that that I started my own. And I have kept notes that people have given me through the years, so I created a Purple File. So, the idea that got planted in my head was reading Entrepreneur Magazine, Purple File, what a good idea. If I'm having a bad day, I can go to the file. It's going to cheer me up. I created one. Well then, we're going to fuel that idea with passion. Step two, my passion was so great that I'm like, Warrick ... In fact, I didn't even ask you, should we have him as a guest. I'm like, "Oops, sorry. I went outside of the order of things," but he turned out to be a great guest, right?
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Gary S:
And we had him on the show. And we talked again about the Purple File. And I was so passionate about it that I then did another reading of something from my file. And that passion just kept me. It just kept churning in my head. There's something about this idea of a Purple File, this file of affirmation that you can keep when the crucibles come and help you get through it.
Gary S:
Well, Dennis and I have been talking behind the scenes and we're actually working together right now to the do something stage, the try something stage. We're going to talk about how we can create the Purple File as a thing beyond just what's happening here, beyond Entrepreneur. I went out and bought the website, thepurplefile.com. I own that now. And we're going to try, We're going to talk about developing that into something that will encourage other people to get the benefits from having that affirmation at hand the same way that Dennis created it and the same way I've aped it. I've come alongside and adopted it.
Gary S:
So, there's a great example of starts with an idea, you got to have passion, and then you try something. I don't know what's going to happen. Are analog files full of notes even a thing anymore in the digital age? I don't know. But we're going to find out. He and I are going to talk we're going to explore and we're going to find out. So, that's a great example of your encouragement, what you wrote about in this blog, that's happening for me right now in real time.
Warwick F:
That's amazing. I mean, it's a great example, really, and maybe this is the leading of the next point, let your vision grow?
Gary S:
Absolutely. Very good. Good cohosting to say, good for you.
Warwick F:
So, yeah. So, it started out with Dennis Gillan and just that whole Purple File concept. Because sometimes on your worst days, you can feel very down. And it's easy to remember all the bad things people say about you. And you tend to forget the good things. So, the reason I think a Purple File can be a good idea is that you got it in front of you and you force yourself to read it. And say I guess, maybe there are some things that I've done right and some praise.
Warwick F:
Anyway, the point that Gary is making is it came from reading something on Entrepreneur Magazine, talking to me about Dennis Gillan and we had him on the podcast, creating his own Purple File, and now, potentially thepurplefile.com. And from there, each of those were steps that started with reading a magazine. And so, that's one of the key things with visions. And I think if you look at the three people that we're talking about, Walt Disney, Reed Hastings and Steve Jobs, each of their visions, they grew.
Warwick F:
I mean, Walt Disney started with, there's got to be a better way to make cartoons tell a bit more of a story. And then, color came out and he made a deal with the people that created I think it was Technicolor, you have the patent and color and says, "Okay. Give me a year lead on every other animator. I want to be the first with color." Okay, so color cartoons. Wow. And then Snow White, Disneyland, Disney World. It went from there.
Warwick F:
Reed Hastings, he started with this DVD subscription service. But then it went to video streaming once the technology was there. And he started making his own movies that won Oscars. Same with Steve Jobs, his incredible journey and he had many setbacks. He got tossed out of Apple at one point, his own company, like the phoenix came back 10 years later.
Warwick F:
But he had lots of bumps, but he started with technology and the Apple I that didn't work out, Apple II was better. And then from later on, you have in his second stint at Apple, the iPod and the iPad. When he was with Pixar, he created Toy Story. So, these visions, they grew a step at a time and it grew out of their passion, whether it was animation, technology, the potential for video rentals and video streaming.
Warwick F:
This passion and persistence, these visions grew a step at a time over years. And there was often each of them had failures, and some big ones. I mean, getting tossed out of your own company was seemingly a big failure. He could have said, "They stabbed me in the back, those awful, horrendous people. How could they throw me out of Apple?" Steve Jobs could have thought. But yeah, I'm sure he was pretty down about it. But he didn't sit back. He went on to did other things, including Pixar.
Warwick F:
So, there's a huge point about let your visions grow, passion and persistence. And it sort of happens organically. Neither of these three people if you said when they were young, can you imagine that A, B and C will happen, and they'll go, "Wow, not really. But that sounds cool." I don't think they would have believed it themselves, that what they ended up happening. So, let your vision grow. There will be obstacles. But trust the process.
Gary S:
And you had just got done talking about how that applies to the three folks that we're mostly talking about here, Walt Disney, Reed Hastings, and Steve Jobs. There's another person that it applies to. And it's the guy whose book you mentioned a little while ago. Oh, yeah, that was Warwick Fairfax, the author of Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead A Life of Significance. The Wall Street Journal bestselling book, Crucible Leadership. Warwick, your story, this podcast, what we're doing right now is a prime example of a vision that grew. Because when you started Crucible Leadership, I'm guessing starting a podcast was nowhere in your orbit.
Warwick F:
It's a great point. And I'm a very reflective person. But I do not at all think of myself as a visionary. I don't think of myself as an entrepreneur either to be honest. I mean, I'm a reflective writer, thinker perhaps. But yeah, I had this idea as listeners know when I gave a talk in church at my church in Maryland in 2008, gosh, if I can write my story and the lessons learned in a way that helps people, it's worth writing the book.
Warwick F:
So, that was the idea, writing a book in a lessons learned format that can help people. I didn't have a whole big structure. In fact, I did something very un-Warwick like. I kind of maybe wrote a very brief kind of, not even 100,000 foot level outline, maybe a million mile high outline, very, very broad.
Warwick F:
And I just thought, "Okay, I'm just going to start writing." Because I'm a writer and this is kind of my medium. So, I just started writing. And huh, okay, yeah, maybe I'll combine my story, but with stories of my dad and John Fairfax, my great-great-grandfather, the founder of the company, maybe stories from inspirational faith figures, maybe historical figures, and it just started writing itself.
Warwick F:
I didn't quite have that three-tiered structure, if you will, mapped out before I started writing. I had this idea of writing a book to use my story to help people. And then I just started writing. And it became clearer, the chapters became clearer. They refined themselves and we've gone back a few times to refine it some more. But that's just how the book started.
Warwick F:
But beyond the book, I was thinking I could get a publisher in Australia, because my story is more well-known there. Some folks were like, "Well, we want more of a cessational book where you diss on your family." And I wasn't willing to do that. It's more about mistakes I made, not arguably anybody else. But then one, publisher said, "This could have promise. But if it's going to be in the business leadership space, you need a following, hopefully a committed following and you need a brand." Well, I have a Harvard MBA. Conceptually, I get that. He says, "Huh."
Warwick F:
Through a mutual friend, they mentioned Cheryl Farr, and her branding a marketing firm, SIGNAL in Denver. So, this was a few years ago now, maybe 2016, something like that. And okay, so we began creating a brand. And then, it grew from that. I started doing a blog and being active on social media. And then, it's like we need to take communications and public relations to another level.
Warwick F:
And you, Gary came onboard, where you had a lot of experience with radio and Hollywood and Focus on the Family. And somebody said, "Well, how about a podcast?" It's like, huh, I like doing the reflective thing. I'm an International Coach Federation certified executive coach, I can ask questions. You're used to cohosting podcasts and radio shows. This good work. We could do this. Well, let's try.
Warwick F:
And then, it grew from there. And as the book, which came out October 2021, well, we're going to need to speak. I don't think of myself as Mr. Charismatic Speaker, but well, let's try. Got training and help and we started it's like, well, it actually didn't go that badly.
Warwick F:
But if you told me, I don't know, back in the early 2000s, before that time in church or even soon after, are you going to have a ... The book is going to get published. But you're going to have a blog, social media, speak, and a podcast. It's like, wow, really? It sounds all the little intimidating. Maybe I'll go back and hide under the covers because the listeners may not believe this, but I am a relatively fearful person.
Warwick F:
So, yeah, if somebody laid out the whole vision for me, I probably wouldn't have started. It's good that we sometimes don't know the whole plan, assuming you believe in a creator up there. It's like I wasn't talking about one next step or that the truth is, don't tell me more than the one next step because I'll probably go back under the covers, just tell me one next step and maybe I can accomplish that. Because as I said, I'm pretty fearful. But it's incredible how the vision grew. I mean, it's hard to believe what's happened.
Gary S:
And what you've just described was step five, point five in the blog. And that was link one step to the next step. You linked the book to a brand. You linked the brand to a blog. You linked the blog into, there's an assessment that we have at crucibleleadership.com that you can find out where you are at on your journey to a life of significance. And then, the podcast came out.
Gary S:
I still remember, Warwick. I was in Denver. We were in Denver for meetings. And I was in my hotel room. And I was like, "Okay, I'm going to present on what I think the future can hold." And I wrote down, I created this, I'm not a graphic design person. I'm a word person. But I created this terrible graphic design thing that was like, the Warwick Fairfax podcast, I called it. We came up with a better name. But that was those little seeds of things that come from point five in your blog, link one step to the next.
Gary S:
What you write here is "Yes, there may be days where it feels like one step forward and two steps back. But forward momentum, trying new ideas and a willingness to experiment, yes, even fail will produce progress over time." And that is the blueprint that Crucible Leadership is followed to get us here with this show right now.
Warwick F:
Exactly. It's all about what's the one next step I need to take. Often, we talk about what's the first step you need to take. Well, in this particular point, we're talking about what's the one next step. So, was it like 2018? Somewhere around there, we began talking about it. It's like, okay, we've got a great website. We're active on social media and blog. And what would be another way of getting the message out? Well, podcasts have become very popular. And it's like, "Well, maybe we can do this." And really, one of the things I think I want listeners to understand is often that one next step, it will be linked to what's come before, but it also will link to your design.
Warwick F:
And so, for me, I'm naturally curious. I think I'm a good listener. I believe I'm a good executive coach. So, being in a format where I'm having to listen and ask good questions, I'm thinking, I don't know anything about podcasting, but I can do this. This is something I can do. It is mission possible. Now, there are other things that I'm horrendous at, but maybe wouldn't have been so swift to try, this thought without a massive amount of help and a large army to help me get there.
Warwick F:
But this was one thing where I didn't know much about it, but I instinctively felt like, you know what, this is something I can do with help. And Gary is a tremendous cohost, and helps pull all this together. But I felt like, this is something I can do. It was a good next step. And so, think about what is the next step I can take from where I am. But also, how does it link to my design? Because if you feel like it's a logical next step and it's linked to your design in some ways like it's mission possible, it's absolutely worth a try. And to a degree almost, within reason, anything is worth a try because you got to keep moving, you know?
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
It's one of the things I say about the law of business. You're either moving forward or backwards. If you think you're coasting, pretty much every business I know, the plane is about to descend and not in a good way.
Gary S:
Right, yeah, right.
Warwick F:
Yeah. You're either moving forward or you're moving back.
Gary S:
What we've just described, what you've just described in talking about, I want to write a book and I need a brand. And then, I'm going to have some blogs. And then, I'm going to do an assessment and then I'm going to do a podcast, you created something not before known. That is inventiveness in action. And the way that it all happened, it's beautiful. There's connecting all those steps. But your sixth point is what makes all of those steps work together and build momentum and that is the power of the flywheel. So, explain that as it pertains to this idea of making inventiveness happen and keeping moving forward.
Warwick F:
I think the key point about the power of the flywheel is momentum. As one idea works, it's like, okay, this is really working. Okay, what's the next step? Even within podcasts, it's like, this seems like this is working. We're having great guests, which is, I've found, very gratifying. It's a safe place. They've often said it gives them a place they're able to talk about, the story in ways that maybe haven't elsewhere. And it's like, this is great. This seems to be working. We have a balance between interviewing guests and you and I talking. It's like, "Okay, well, this is good." And so, it's like, what happens if we had a series? We had a series on resilience. We have a series coming up in in April and that was a new idea.
Warwick F:
So, even within the world of podcasts and Beyond the Crucible, there's been incremental steps, one step, one step, making it we'd like to think more robust and even better. And so, that fuels your passion for making the podcast even better, let alone the other things that we're doing with speaking. It's like, because here's an important link.
Warwick F:
Because with a podcast, I was able to tell my story on this podcast and I'm on a lot of other people's podcasts, so I get to tell my story a lot of different times, hundreds if not more. Then when it came to speaking, it's like, "Well, I don't think of myself as a natural speaker. But I've given elements of my speech a hundred times in different ways." And just putting together the chapters with yourself and some great help.
Warwick F:
So, the fact the podcasts seem to be going well and I had a lot of practice telling my story, that gave me some degree of confidence that with help, maybe I can do speaking. So, there was a link between podcasting and speaking. And so, the confidence in one actually fueled me to think, you know what, we'll do what we've always done and get a great team together, figure out a plan and make it happen. So, you begin to increase your confidence, which increases in potentially the rate that the flywheel is spinning, so it does fuel momentum and enthusiasm.
Gary S:
I love how this conversation has evolved. And we didn't really plan it this way, necessarily. But we start out with, okay, we're going to talk about inventiveness. And here's three really inventive people that automatically people are like, oh, you're worried you can't reach the level of those Walt Disneys and Steve Jobs of the world. And we've broken it down as we've gone through the points in your blog. We've broken it down, really as to what has happened with Crucible Leadership, which is, I think, much more identifiable to listeners who have, especially those who've been along with us through the ride, through a hundred plus episodes of the show.
Gary S:
So, the takeaway from what we've talked about so far is not only should you not look at and compare yourself to a Steve Jobs. You don't have to end up where Steve Jobs is at, and that's where you say all the time, Warwick, it can be in your own neighborhood. Your life of significance, the life dedicated to serving others, living with purpose can be a "small" impact, but one life is a huge impact if you make one huge impact.
Gary S:
And what you've just explained as you've walked us through this process, outlined in your blog about Crucible Leadership, it's how you've enacted a life of significance out of your passion, birthed by an idea, and stringing one idea together with another, which then leads us to, perhaps the best part of your eight points, and that is, celebrate the wins. Why is it important to celebrate the wins as you're going through pursuing a vision that's inventive?
Warwick F:
It's very easy to gloss over positive feedback and things that go well and go, "Okay, that went well." But yeah, there's always a bit like Eeyore and Winnie the Pooh, any Winnie the Pooh fans, it's like, I know, today is going to be terrible. It's going to be awful. I may as well give up. I know it's sunny now, but I know it's going to rain. There'll be lightning. I have a flat tire. You can go through life with an Eeyore mentality.
Warwick F:
But I think what you've got to do to counteract that, and we're all human, is celebrate the wins. So, yeah, when I got my book published in October last 2021, a few months before when I got that first book, it was a big day. Now, I wanted to make sure that I didn't get a swollen head and because I'm a person of faith, I was literally on my knees saying, "All glory to God and this is your success, not mine," and that's all good. But when those things happen and my team actually, you Gary and others helped me, you set this wonderful sort of plaque with the cover of the book in glass and a frame and it was beautiful and I have it in my office.
Warwick F:
And sometimes, it takes a village, it takes a team to help you celebrate because we can easily gloss over those things. But yeah, celebrating the wins, that gives you encouragement and momentum to keep going. So, it's not just about, oh, look at me, how wonderful I am. Even if it's like, oh, I have a wonderful team or God is so great.
Warwick F:
How you want to process celebrating, you've got to celebrate it because it will help give you encouragement and enthusiasm, passion and persistence to keep going. So, there's a business reason for doing that. Not just patting yourself on the back. It's so important. And it's not something I do naturally exactly to be honest. So, it's something I have to tell myself, it's okay to celebrate the wins.
Gary S:
Well, and you're not the only one who thinks that because Oprah Winfrey said this. Oprah Winfrey, who has a bit to celebrate, one would surmise. Oprah Winfrey said, "The more you praise and celebrate your life, the more there is in life to celebrate." And I mean, talk about a flywheel. The more you celebrate life, what's happened in your life, the more there is to celebrate in your life. So, it becomes this not vicious circle, but this encouraging sort of.
Warwick F:
Yeah, as I sometimes say, this virtuous circle.
Gary S:
There you go, a virtuous cycle.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Gary S:
There's another one. Wait a minute, hashtag virtuous circle. Warwick is dropping wisdom and pithy comments in this episode. I love it.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I don't know if I created that or not, but it's certainly something I've used over the years. But one of the things linked to that as we've talked often on this podcast and elsewhere about gratitude, celebrating the wins, it's another way of saying be grateful. Like for me, more broadly, I'm blessed to have my wife, Gail. We've been married over 30 years, three wonderful kids who are now adults. I go to a great church, have a fantastic team at Crucible Leadership such as yourself and others. I have a massive amount to be thankful for and to be grateful for.
Warwick F:
So, the larger point beyond celebrating the wins is having, and this is not my phrase, but having an attitude of gratitude also is really important. You can start off complaining about how whining and winching as we say in the industry how bad life is and life can be tough for many. I get that. But to the degree that you can, having an attitude of gratitude and celebrating the wins is so important.
Gary S:
Yeah. And it's great that that connects to because you talked about a team in the midst of that. And that really is the eighth point of your blog, the final point of your blog, is this idea of building a great team. So, once you've built the infrastructure and you've built the step by step flywheel of how you're going to bring inventiveness to work in bringing your vision to reality, having a team around you, build a great team is important. Why? Why is that such a critical part that it's the last point in what you've written.
Warwick F:
This is something that many, if not most entrepreneurs struggle with is like, "Hey, this is my idea. I created this idea in my garage, and I want to do it all. It's all me." And that's why they typically flame out or hit a wall and don't go beyond a certain amount of revenue. But we all have our positives and negatives. Walt Disney is a good example. He was an animator, creative guy. He wasn't a business guy, hence getting swindled out of Oswald the Lucky Rabbit.
Warwick F:
Well, so he brings his brother onboard, who's a business guy. Now, obviously, there's always tension. Walt's dreaming dreams and wants to do all these things. And the business guy is saying, "Wait on, Walt. Hang on a second. I don't think we can launch 85 things this year. How about 84? I mean, come on, let's be reasonable. I got to go to the bank and get funding from this. I mean, please. Don't give me a heart attack."
Warwick F:
And there would be a meeting of the minds. And so, you have people that complement areas where you're not as strong in. So, that is critical. So, in the area of Crucible Leadership, I love writing and thinking and reflecting. That's what I love doing. But I'm fearful about lots of things. And one of the things I don't like doing is selling. I'm not good at it, hate it, hate it. And so, yeah.
Gary S:
I've heard that before from you.
Warwick F:
We've got people that Keri Childers leads our event management sales side. And so, that's just one example. But we've got people that are talented at all sorts of areas, whether it's social media and creative, helping us produce high quality videos. So, what I try and do is stay in my lane, which is reflective advisor thinking, so I don't have to worry about selling. Other people will do that that are good at it and I'm not. And I'm not a graphic artist. I'm not somebody that creates high quality videos. I'm not a podcast producer. I mean, there's a lot of things I can't do.
Warwick F:
But you've got to have the humility and the, in an ironic sense, self-confidence to say, "I know there are things I'm not good at," or put it this way, even if I'm good at, there are other people that are great at. And if somebody is great at it and I'm really good at it, I'm going to give it to the person who's great at it. Why wouldn't I? It's all about the success of what we're doing. So, yeah, building a great team, they'll celebrate the wins with you as I just mentioned my team has done many times.
Gary S:
Keri Childers is the celebration. And I mean, she's the best celebrator on the team, in my view. Keri is very good. She sent cookies when your book made it to the best seller list. I mean, she's just really, really, really good at that.
Warwick F:
She definitely has the gift of encouragement and celebration.
Gary S:
Indeed, indeed.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, absolutely. So, yeah. And the last thing I'll say about building a great team, and this is something that's hard-learned lesson. You want people that absolutely have complementary skills and are the best of what they do. That goes without saying. But more important than that is having a team with integrity, having a team that will speak their truth to you, even if you don't want to hear it. And I think I have that kind of team. And have a team that has your best interest at heart. And it's not just about the fees, as passionate or committed to the vision as you are.
Warwick F:
So, building a great team, ability is overrated. Ability is good. That's a starting point, you need a way more than ability. You need integrity, humility, and absolute passionate commitment to the vision. Ideally, more committed than you are. And that's a high bar. But that's what you're looking for.
Gary S:
Now, this is the time in the show where I normally would say, "The captain's turned on the fasten seatbelt sign." Since, we've been spending so much time talking about Walt Disney and his expansive vision that he built on, I'm going to say, that sounds you heard was the Space Mountain ride coming to a stop. It's time to exit the cars here in a minute and go on to the rest of the park. But before we do that, Warwick, what's the final ribbon you want to put, the bow you want to put on the package that is not just your blog on inventiveness, but also this discussion that we've had on this subject?
Warwick F:
I think when you think about vision, yes, it starts with passion. It starts with an idea that you're dreaming about. As you go to sleep, you're thinking, "Gosh, wouldn't it be incredible if the world had this? Wouldn't it be amazing if somehow what I went through, I have an idea that could help people overcome it or maybe avoid it?" So, there's ideas and there's vision and there's dreams ruminating. But probably the most important thing is try something, do something. What one thing are you going to do today? Or maybe it's this week? Or, what's that first idea you got to do and do it.
Warwick F:
Maybe it's talk to one person, maybe have a friend help you. The most important thing with vision is all these things like the flywheel and let your visions grow and link one step to another and celebrate your wins, build a great team, those are all very important. But you've got to start with, okay, I've got this little idea. It may flop. It may fly. But I'm going to try. I'm going to stick my baby toe in the water. I'm going to do it.
Warwick F:
Yeah, and it doesn't have to be bet the farm, mortgage the house. It doesn't have to be a massive step. It can be what's one small step you're going to take and then do it. Just do it. Try something. That is the critical thing in your journey to having a vision become reality is just try something, just do something.
Gary S:
Well, I'm off the ride now. And I'm off to get a corndog. So, we will wrap this episode of the show. Listeners, you've heard in this conversation Warwick mention a couple things. One is his book, Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead Alife of Significance. That's available now anywhere you can buy books. You can also get it at crucibleleadership.com. You can order it there.
Gary S:
You also mentioned, Warwick, talk about his speaking engagements that he is, and we're about ready to ramp those up again. If you would like Warwick to speak to your group at crucibleleadership.com, the aforementioned gift of celebration team member Keri Childers is the speaking agent for Crucible Leadership. She'll help you get Warwick to your event. You can find out all that information at crucibleleadership.com.
Gary S:
So, until the next time we're together, finding inventive ways to help you move beyond your crucibles. Remember, that we do understand your crucibles are painful. Our crucibles were painful, too. They still are as they happen because as Warwick says often, crucibles, it's not a one and done thing. They tend to keep coming. And how we survive them is by learning the lessons of them, by not saying as a guest just said the other day that I'd forgotten we've used this phrase. But it's not, why did this happen to me. It's why did this happen for me?
Gary S:
That perspective as you face a crucible and move beyond is a key perspective that helps you learn the lessons of your crucible. And when you learn the lessons of your crucible and you apply them to a vision, even if that vision is way more inventive than you are comfortable with right now, you can pursue it. You can achieve it.
Gary S:
And the beauty about doing so is at the end of that journey as you pursue that vision rooted in the lessons you learned from your crucible, it will lead to the greatest story of your life far from the end of your story. It's the beginning of a new story when you learn the lessons and move on. Because where that story ends is that a life of significance.