In this episode from February 2020, which we’re running in its entirety as we approach the new year and the personal reflection that always accompanies it, BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick and cohost GarySchneeberger explore practical ways we can live today in a manner that leaves a legacy that outlives us well into tomorrow. The key, you’ll discover, is pursuing your career and caring for your family with the kind of character you want to define you in life … and beyond. “If it matters to you on your deathbed,” Warwick notes, “why not get a head start and do something about your legacy now?”

Highlights

Michelle Kuei never really had a chance to dream about what her life could be before a tragic car accident at 11 in her native Taiwan left her with physical and emotional scars that plagued her for 30 years. She just wanted to be normal, she said in this interview first aired in May 2020. But then she discovered she was more than normal, finding inside herself what she says we all have inside of us – a diamond just waiting to shine. And shining is exactly what Michelle Kuei is doing today through her thriving coaching and speaking practice, Elevate Life Coaching.

To learn more about Michelle Kuei, visit https://elevatelifecoaching.org/

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Michelle K:

I finally had an aha moment just a couple of weeks ago and I spent all my life wanting to be normal, and my book was talking about normal, like being perfectly normal. But I'm here, I am here in the middle of the road and that was my past. I've already done that. I am more than normal. I climbed Machu Picchu, I did all that. I'm able to hike. I did all these things, but that's not normal. That's not normal at all. People can't do that. People can't just wake up one night and they say, “You know what? I'm going to go high Machu Picchu.” No, that's not normal at all. I'd done something very extraordinary that not many people can do. Why not accept yourself for your extraordinary? Why not accept yourself for who you are? You are more than just enough. Why not accept yourself for the gift that was given to you?




Gary S:




The gift that was given to you? In the form of a crucible? Accept the traumas and tragedies of life not as things to be erased? But embraced? Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show.

You just heard a snippet of the interview Warwick and I did last May with Michele Kuei – a conversation so inspiring and insightful we’re running it again, in its entirety, as we head into the holiday season.

Kuei never really had a chance to dream about what her life could be before a tragic car accident at 11 in her native Taiwan left her with physical and emotional scars that plagued her for 30 years. But then she discovered inside herself what she says we all have inside us – a diamond just waiting to shine. And shining is exactly what Michelle Kuei is doing today through her thriving coaching and speaking practice, Elevate Life Coaching.

Warwick F:

Well, Michelle, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. You have an incredible story. I'd love to just start with tell us about your story that leads up to your crucible moment. Yeah, just tell us a bit about Michelle and your story.

Michelle K:

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure and in isolation, but it doesn't feel like isolation right now. I'm surrounded by a lot of love. To start, basically, I grew up, like Gary said, I grew up in Taiwan. I was born in Taiwan and as I was growing up at age 11 years old, just like all the other kids who go to school, I came off school one day and I remember that day my mom was running late. I was waiting for her at school and when I saw her coming towards me to pick me up, she was on her motorbike. There's a lot of motorbike in Asia. She was coming off on her motorbike, and I got up from my chair, I ran across the street. I wanted to meet her on the other side of the street.

Michelle K:

As I was approaching and walking to the middle of the street, I realized that my best friend was waving her hand at me and she said, “Stop, stop.” And she was waving at me and there's a lot of shouting that was going on. I was confused. I was standing in the middle of the street and I could just smell the rubber that was burning, and I don't remember where the sound was coming down. Then the next thing I know was that I woke up and I was in a hospital bed. And when I woke up and my parents were standing next to my bed, and they were talking to the doctor. I started to have sensation and I started looking down on my waist, and from my waist all the way down to my ankle, I noticed I was wrapped with this plaster that was surrounding my body.

Michelle K:

Basically, the doctor had… because of the accident, I had the accident while I was standing in the middle of the street, and the doctor had to stabilize me by wrapping me with a plaster from waist all the way to ankle. Following that incident, three months afterwards, I was basically trapped at home in isolation. I was in bed and I couldn't go to school, and I couldn't go anywhere. But what's the crucible, and I love the title of this podcast because it's crucible. What's really difficult in those moment at age 11 is that the fact that I was a little kid and I wanted to go out to play. I wanted to meet my friend and I wanted to just be where the life that I used to live in, but I couldn't do that and I was starting to live a different life.

Michelle K:

That moment was like a turning point for me because I no longer can do all the things I wanted to do in my past. And now I have to learn how to walk after they unwrap me. I have to learn how to do a lot of things by myself. Learning how to walk, learning how to make new friends was another thing at age 11. That was the beginning of this crucible moment. From age 11 all the way till 40 years old, so I spent 30 years of my life living very differently. It's not a normal life where… so just to backtrack a little bit to gave the listener an idea of how I look like.

Michelle K:

I'm 4 feet, 4 inches tall, very short, very petite. This has been the same height since I was in elementary school, because the accident actually required the doctor to go back and perform a lot of different surgeries, so I had a lot of scars on my leg. And with that, something must have happened and inhibited the way that I was growing. I had not grown since when I was 11, the same height as I was 11. Growing into adulthood, being with the same height, it created a lot of challenges for me.

Michelle K:

There's moment where I go to school, I can't reach stuff on the shelf. When you're a kid, that's okay because people will… adult will just reach over and grab it for you. But when you reach over to adulthood or when you're in your first job, and I remember my first job, I work in a pharmacy where the counter is taller than me. In order to me to work like everyone else, I have to use a step stool, I have to reach to the top. There's a lot of climbing. There's a lot of physical strenuous activity that I need to be able to do in addition to all the other responsibility that I have. That's quite challenging.

Michelle K:

And I could never figure out why when you walk into a grocery store, all the essential items would be on the very top shelf rather than on the bottom shelf, that I never figured out. That's also really very, extremely essential challenge for me because I need to buy essentials and I can never reach to the top. And there's something about asking that always frightens me in the past. I never liked to ask people what to do or help me with things. What ended up happening is if I need to reach the toilet paper on the top, I can't do that. I was just using an alternative rather than asking, putting myself out there and ask.

Michelle K:

That's 30 years of my life growing like that. During that time, I was also battling with what's going on in the inside, because as adolescent, as I grow into adolescent, I was experiencing a lot of that peer pressure where people are dressing up, all these girls they're looking very pretty. They started to wear… it was during the ‘80s, so I don't know if you guys remember the ‘80s, the hair.

Gary S:

I had hair in the ‘80s, so.

Michelle K:

The hair, the mini skirt and I wanted to look exactly like that, and that was one of my dream, wanting to look that way when I go out. When I'm in a social group, when I'm with my friends, when we hang out, I want to dress like that, but I couldn't because with my leg, the way that the surgeon was performing, the doctor had told me that, “Michelle, from 11 years old, after the surgery, you have to wear these metal bracelet because as you're growing, we don't want you to grow your bone into a deformity.” I was given a pair of really ugly metal bracelet that I was supposed to wear up until the age of 18.

Michelle K:

But by age of 16, I was struggling with the look. I said to myself, “You know what? I'm not going to wear these. These are too ugly. I want to take it off.” I decided I was going to take it off, I took it off. And the minute I took it off, I started to use my body weight all on top of my leg. That created pressure and as I'm walking, it started to hurt my back. And by the time I reached my college, I noticed that I could no longer walk comfortably without any assistance. For the longest time, my mom was my crutch. She goes everywhere I go. I always hold onto her hand. She goes where I go.

Michelle K:

Once I got into graduate school, I had to live in the dorm. I went when off and left home, I started to live in the dorm. I couldn't take my mom anymore, so I got to figure out a way to somehow walk. My doctor told me, “Well, this is time, basically, at this point, your leg is so disfigured. If you don't use a crutch to walk, you're not going to make it.” I said, “Okay, fine.” I started to use two arm crutches. Instead of holding on to my mom, I used arm crutches. And being short is one thing, it's already a challenge. Now I have to deal with two arm crutches, holding on. I have no hand to hold anything else.

Michelle K:

A lot of times when I go out, it's a matter of how do I strap things on my body so I can carry groceries. How can I use my body so that I can carry things that I need to carry with my hand? And when I see people going to a coffee shop and I get so envy of them because they have the ability of holding their coffee in one hand and looking at their phone at the other. I don't have that luxury. I have two crutches and I can't do neither one of them. I often have to stop either to get my phone, put my crutches down or one or the other. I couldn't do both. And I get really jealous of people having the ability to do that.

Michelle K:

And that was something that I was really struggling with for 30 years of my life because I want to look normal. I want to have that life that everyone else has. Being able to go to a store and reaching to the top without asking people for help. I wanted to dress up pretty in my clothes so that when I go out people will say, “Michelle, you're beautiful.” That first impression I never had, the first impression that we all value. Even during job interview, we look at someone, we look at the first impression. I always thought that that's a luxury that I don't have because I don't have that first appearance.

Warwick F:

Wow, that's an incredible story. And I want to go back a bit. And before age 11, you were probably just a typical girl, had a lot of friends. I'm guessing you've always been a happy kind of person in your nature.

Michelle K:

I was a happy, happy baby, my mom said.

Warwick F:

I can imagine. When that happened, I mean, sometimes there's anger and resentment, like depending on your beliefs, God or some spiritual force, why did you let that happen? Maybe if my friend hadn't waved to me, I would have kept going or why didn't this car see me? And did you go through a cycle of anger and resentment, and how could this have happened?

Michelle K:

I did. I absolutely did. And I thought if my mom had come just a minute earlier or she hasn't run late that day, maybe all of this wouldn't happen. Or maybe if I were to just wait just one second more before I start walking across the street, then maybe this wouldn't have happened. I went through that period initially, at least for a good 10, 15 years of my life, thinking why does it have to be me? Why is it just me that happened? I have two other siblings. I have a brother and a sister, and I'm thinking, “Why couldn't it just happened to them? Why does it have to have happened to me? What is it about me? Why did it happen to me?”

Warwick F:

Why does the world not like me? I mean, you used the word normal before, which is we all want to fit in. It's just part of being human. You want to be liked. You said growing up in the ‘80s, you want to be seen as pretty, be able to wear all the fashions and just like your friends. And it's like, “Well, why can't I be normal like my friends? Why can't I be like everybody else? How has this fair?” I mean it just, the comment you made, “Why can't I hold a cup of coffee in one hand, a phone in the other? I mean, is that too much to ask? It's like I'm not asking for, I don't know, a million dollars and a beautiful house. I just want a normal life.” Right?

Warwick F:

And so, for that must've been not just the accident, but the years after and grad school, and do I have to have my mother around me. I mean, I'm sure you love your mother, but can't I go somewhere without that? And so that must have been… it sounds like it was years and years of dealing with that frustration. It wasn't just the first few years, it was how many years would you say that frustration of just the-

Michelle K:

It was a good 30 years and I just wanted to be normal. And not being normal to me means that you have the normal body shape that we all… we flipped through the textbook, the biology textbook, this is how a woman or a man should look. There's physically, they look identical, they look perfect, their legs are straight. That's normal for me. And that's how I define normal. And that's what I believe normal should be. When I see myself in the mirror, I actually felt really ashamed of my body because this is not what I was taught. This is not what I see around me. This is not normal.

Warwick F:

It's almost like I cannot be happy and fulfilled unless I'm normal. Was that the mindset that you're going through? And therefore, it's impossible for me to have a happy, fulfilling life because I'm not normal, as you looked at it.

Michelle K:

Yes.

Warwick F:

And so, I mean, I'm sure a number of listeners maybe have had physical challenges, there are all sorts of challenges that make you feel like nobody can love me and accept me. And it's all from physical challenges to abuse, to you name it, there's all sorts of things that people feel like nobody can possibly love or want me kind of thing. How did that change for you? Because there are certain things like physically, I imagine that's a difficult thing. I mean, certainly you probably had to accept that you can't actually change, but how did you manage to combat that and just change how you thought about things?

Gary S:

And especially if I can add here, especially from an emotional perspective, one of the things, Michelle, that strikes me about your story, your crucible experience is that it is both physical and very devastating, and also emotionally very devastating. One of the things that you and I talked about in advance of our interview time here and the note I took is that romantic relationships were very difficult. There's an emotional aspect of this that is in very real ways as painful in different ways, but real ways as painful as the physical aspect of it.

Gary S:

To Warwick's question, how did you overcome that both from a physical and emotional sense? And I guess for listeners who face some of those same things, there's a physical crucible and emotions tied to it. Which one was perhaps more difficult to overcome?

Michelle K:

I would definitely say the emotional is the most difficult to overcome. Because a physical challenge, like what I did was I used a step stool. These physical external challenges can overcome by accommodating with a step stool or with something else, or with a crutch for nowaday, I reach over and just push things to the edge. External physical challenge is really easy to overcome, but emotional challenges, what I find that really were the core of the energy, the majority of the time that we're spending dwelling on.

Michelle K:

And I remember one of the incident was I was in my 30s and that was during the time when I first got into relationship. And I remember I was just sitting there one day and there was an empty chair with a man's jacket on the chair on the back. And I was just looking at the jacket and looking at the chair, and I started to crying. I was crying. And there's an enormous sense of loneliness that was inside that was coming out for me, because for the longest time I was longing for someone to love me. I was longing to be loved, to be appreciated and to have that love be returned to me when I send it out.

Michelle K:

But when I'm not getting that reciprocate of love and caring from another person, from another man, I felt extremely hurt and alone. And that was the emotion I was going through from ever since I started to explore the relationship side. And there's so much of interpersonal relationship that we deal with every day. What I've learned is that it says a lot about… it's teaching a lot about who you are. When I was in those moments, and perhaps this is something that the listener can and find value in, is that in order to overcome your emotional challenge, many times you have to be able to recognize it. You have to allow it, you have to accept it.

Michelle K:

And my condition, my physical challenge was something I needed to accept. This is how I am and this is who I am. This is how I'm going to look for the rest of my life. I can sit here and not accept it, and keep having resistance, keep having that fighting emotion and keep wanting to understand why has it done to me, and keep wanting, exploring it in that victim thinking mentality or mindset. Or, I can accept that this had happened. It's very unfortunate, but it happened. I can accept this is how I look and I can embrace every part of me because there's something else other than, greater than what we see on the outside. It's not just the physical appearance, it's not just what we see externally. It's what's going on in the inside. There's a light that's inside each one of us. That's what we need to accept.

Warwick F:

I mean that is so profound about focusing on the light that's within us, accepting the things we can't change. How did you do that? Because as you said, I think it was like, what, 20, 30 years of battling with this. I mean, it's not easy. I mean, you're an intelligent person. You're somebody that looks like when they want to achieve something, they do. I mean, you strike me as that kind of person. It's not like you're somebody that just sits there and does nothing. How did you get to that point where you could actually accept the physical limitations and change how you thought about yourself? How did you do that?

Michelle K:

One of my biggest challenge in this life is my physical challenge, right? I grew up 30 years of being physically challenged and this is my limitation. And part of it has to do with the word that you used, combat. And when you're in that combat mode, you realize there's something that you need to fight. What is it that you need to fight for? And for me, what I need to fight for is to find a light, to find my purpose, find the reason why I am here. I started to tap into that anger, that resentment. I want to know why.

Michelle K:

And one day I remember I was waking up and suddenly, I was getting so tired of living this life. I told myself, “All right, so here you are. This is your physical challenge. What are you going to do about it?” I was asking, having a conversation with myself, I said, “What are you going to do about it?” My answer was, “Well, if physical challenge is my challenge, guess what? I guess I have no choice but challenge my physical challenge.” I decided that in 2016, I'd never been to a gym before. I never signed up to a gym, don't know how to work the easy equipment. I was really afraid of breaking them. And being myself, getting myself broken. I was afraid to go into the gym.

Michelle K:

But in 2016, I decided I'm going to go sign up in the gym. I did that. That was my number one, my first step of wanting to find out what would it take for me to fight in this. I went and signed up to a gym, and then the second thing I did was I hired myself a personal trainer because obviously, I don't know how to work these machines, so I need someone to show me, to teach me how to do it. I hired a professional, I hired a personal coach. And then the third thing I did, at that time all my friends, they were talking about how amazing it is to do hiking, to go out and climb the mountain, and going to Peru.

Michelle K:

And so, I could never participate in those conversations with them because it was some part of me that I just couldn't do. One of my goal is actually to be able to participate in those conversation. That same year, 2016, I made a promise to myself, I'm going to promise myself that I can do this and I'm going to do whatever it takes to hike. I started hiking that year. And the other goal that I had was I don't want just hiking, I don't want to just go up to any mountain, I want to go up to Machu Picchu and I want to do the Inca Trail.

Michelle K:

The Inca Trail is 26 miles and it's a four-day hike. And each day you have to just camp out and you have to rough it out. There's no shower, there's no toilet whatsoever. You really have to rough it up. And so, in addition to just being rough it out there, I flew myself to Peru in that same year, in September. I flew myself to Peru and I don't speak Spanish, by the way. I flew myself there and I had my two crutches and I brought my two pink arm crutches because it has to be pink, it has to be pink. I brought my pink crutches, went up to the mountain, I got food poisoning the day before the hike, check myself to the infirmary the night before.

Michelle K:

And I remember calling my sister. I said, “I'm really sick. I'm in the hospital right now. I don't know, can you talk me out of it?” My sister was like, “Yeah, you need to come home. Come home today.” And I thought about it, right? And I was, “No, I made it this far. I'm going to go.” After we hung up the phone, I told my sister, “I'm going to go.” And lo and behold, the next day, I went out to Machu Picchu, started my first day of hike. On the first day, it was all uphill. It was all inclined. I remember I had a lot of difficulty because the high-altitude syndrome, it was real.

Warwick F:

Right.

Michelle K:

Yeah, it was real. And I remember I was getting tired. I was dehydrated and so my immune system was kind of down. The first day was a struggle and I barely made it to the final camp that night. And my team leader, the tool guy who was with us, he sat me down and he asked me, because past the first day if I made a decision to come back, then there was still a chance that I can come back. He sat me down and he said, “Michelle, I know you were struggling and I know this is something that you want to do, but you were leaving behind you had to a difficult time to catch up. What do you want to do?” He gave the option to me and I thought about it. I said, “Thank you. I appreciate that you're letting me know that after this point, there's no turning back.” I said, “I appreciate that, but I want to continue.”

Michelle K:

Every morning after the first day, so starting on the second day, every morning, I will wake up at five o'clock in the morning, I would start my hike. I would put my headlight on. It's still dark outside. You can't really see the steps. I would put on my headlight and I would start my hike. Every day, five o'clock, I would start my hike. And I can barely just made it to meet everybody around dinner time, around lunchtime, around break time. And all these people that I met during that trip, it's been an amazing journey.

Michelle K:

And so, I did that in September 2016, and the very last day of the Inca Trail hike, we were at the point of the Sun Gate. This is the final entry point before we get into the Machu Picchu, so I was looking at the steps, the final 50 steps at Machu Picchu. I looked up, it was 60 degrees angle or 70, yeah. I was looking up, and I was, “Oh my God.” I wasn't sure what have I done? How am I going to finish these last 50 steps with my two crutches? And the steps were really narrow and small. I stood in front of the Sun Gate, I was looking up and I thought about all my life for this very moment. “Okay, I'm here. What do I have to do to finish this?”

Michelle K:

I gave my two crutches to my team leader, took off my day pack, hand the day pack to him. I say, “Here, you lead me to the top.” I sent him to the top. I got down to my knees and legs, I started to crawl because that was the only safe way for me to go to the top. I got down to my hands and knee, I started crawling every step, every step, one step at a time. And by the time I went to the top, my team leader was clapping. I turned around and there was someone else taking a picture. I took my hand up, that victory gesture. I was in the air. It felt so accomplished.

Michelle K:

Then I turned around, I started approaching to meet everybody and my teammate, and all these other travelers at this big platform at the Sun Gate. I walked in, everyone stood up and they were clapping, they were cheering for me. And I actually got a pin from Canada. It was an honorary citizen. I still have my pin. I still have my pin. And it was amazing. And that was the moment that I start to realize that I am capable. Whatever it is going in front of me, that I am capable as long as I set my mind to it.

Warwick F:

Well, it seems like that moment was pivotal on your journey, that changing how you think about things. I mean, there's the internal and there's the external, exactly sort of busting into the picture here.

Gary S:

Hi Buster.

Warwick F:

For the listeners who are listening to it, there's a beautiful old Tabby cat that just emerged. But Michelle, there's the internal and there's the external, as I said, to think about this story. There's externally, you are having an enormous impact on those around you. I'm not quite sure which to start with but just maybe on the external. You felt alone, like nobody wants to see me, but yet you had a whole bunch of cheerleaders, people that were with you. What did it feel like or as you looked at their faces, they were on team Michelle, right?

Michelle K:

Yeah.

Warwick F:

They were your team, they wanted you to win, they wanted you to succeed. Talk about the effect that you had on them and how it felt back to you.

Michelle K:

It was a really strange feeling because when I was in that moment, when I was so busy caught up in my own misery and tragedy, and thinking that the world, just all the bad things just happen to me, when I'm so busy tied in thinking about that, it was really hard to believe that I had any impact on others. Actually, that's what my teammate had to called were Team Michelle, and we actually celebrate it with a cake on my last day of the trip that says Team Michelle.

Warwick F:

Oh really?

Michelle K:

It was really hard for me to believe that because I was so busy thinking about my own misery. And when you start changing your mind, when that shift starts to happen and you realize that you are not alone in this. There's so many people around you who celebrate you, who cheer for you, who stood out for you and who clap for you. Now they really see you as the light at the end of their tunnel. It was a complete different experience for me and it was eye-opening to really stress seeing them for the first time.

Warwick F:

It's almost like if you let them, they want to be with you, they want to not just support you, they want to cheer for you if you'll let them, and you could see that. And then just it's often we think of physical limitations and there are limitations, but yet it seems like you did what most people would say is impossible. Machu Picchu, I don't know how many thousands of feet height is, but it's very high altitude, sickness that a lot of people get. You got these 50 steps, 60-degree incline. It's like most people would say somebody with your challenges and crutches, it's impossible. Give it up. You're going to hurt yourself. But yet you overcame that physical limitation.

Warwick F:

Talk about the feeling you had when you're on top of those steps and you'd done what most people thought was impossible. What were you feeling at that moment when you'd achieve the impossible, seemingly?

Michelle K:

I was crying, the minute I reached to the top, and to answer your question, it's 14,000 feet high.

Warwick F:

Oh wow.

Michelle K:

That's the altitude.

Gary S:

Oh, just 14,000 feet.

Michelle K:

And when I reached the highest peak, I broke down and cry. And I think a lot of it has to do with that spirituality, that feeling that there's something greater than myself, there's something bigger than myself. And when I look around, the whole environment, the whole world, the mountain, there's something bigger than just me. It helped me to lift my thinking away from that egocentric me, me, me, me, me, to a broader view of I am not in this alone. There's so many people around me who celebrated me and there are so many people who's going through the same journey, and they're struggling too. I may not see their physical struggles, but they're struggling too.

Michelle K:

And on my journey, I remember there's a guy, the perfectly well, very fit. He probably worked out a lot and he was just kept throwing up. Every 10 seconds, 10 minutes, he was throwing up on the side and it was a race between him and I, because he has to stop and throw up, and I have to stop and catch up. It made me realize that yes, my struggle was the physical challenge, this is my limitation. But for someone else, it could be something that's going on inside. There's a storm that they are experiencing on the inside and I don't see that. It's not my place to judge them of what they're going through.

Gary S:

Right. This is a perfect time, I think, to jump in and read something, Michelle, that you wrote in that form I talked about that we have guests fill out. And I have to tell you that we have had every guest that we've had on fill this out, and yours is one of the most inspirational ones I've read. But you said this and I think it summarizes your story perfectly, not just from your perspective, but also, I hope from the perspective of listeners who have different realities to their crucible experiences, but the emotions are the same.

Gary S:

But this is what you wrote in talking about how to think about a crucible, and you just described the way that you did that when you were going through yours and when you were bouncing back from it. But here's what you wrote, in part what you wrote. “So what if this very moment, whatever this setback you are experiencing was meant to be something bigger than yourself? What if this is the universe's gift to refine and polish the diamond within you? What if you are meant to find the gem, and that is what makes you different, unique and extraordinary? How would you choose to see your setback? How would you choose to see your tragedy? The misfortune that measured only a small fraction of our entire lifetime.”

Gary S:

That is a beautiful summary of not just your story, but the story of a lot of folks who are listening right now. And listeners hear that and realize that gift was not a word, I'm sure, Michelle chose lightly. That your crucible can be a gift from the universe, from your spiritual tradition. Can be a gift to help you realize things you're capable of and to help you realize what you were, as Warwick talks about, what your true purpose is here on earth.

Warwick F:

Yeah, so great point. Michelle, talk about how what you went through can be seen as a gift, which for most people they just said, what are you talking about, Michelle? Not getting at all the hidden gem. I mean, there's a lot of profound words in it. Talk about how your thinking changed and your message, frankly, to the world. Talk about that message in your perspective.

Michelle K:

I think each and every one of us are a gift. We are a gift to this world. For me it's I'm really good at doing medicine. I'm really good with pharmacology. I'm a pharmacist, right? That's what I do. And that's a talent that was given to me. And for someone else, they could be a really good engineer. They could be someone who has a lot of analytical thinking. Each one of us are very unique and there's a purpose in our life that we came to this earth for, and that's how we serve to the world. Right?

Michelle K:

And when I talk about gift and each one of us being the diamond, you have to believe, you have to start to believe that you are this thing that we dig out from all the dirt, and what's behind all that dirt, it's actually something very beautiful, very profound, and very special, and very unique. Because there's something inside of you that makes you who you are, that defines who you are, that makes you perfectly different than everyone else. And that is the gem. That is the diamond of you. You are the diamond, and you have to believe that because that's who you are.

Michelle K:

And until you believe that, and until you have that grind in your brain, in your memory, in your mind, everything else in this world just have that impermanent sense, right? Everything that happens to us are just experience.

Warwick F:

Talk about how you began to see yourself as the diamond, because that aged 11, aged 28, 30, that I don't think was where you were at. What did that look like for Michelle, for Michelle Kuei, for looking at yourself as the diamond? How do you change that thinking and what did that look like for you?

Michelle K:

Before I saw myself as wanting to be normal, I just want to be normal. Whatever that normal is that's acceptable to the society, I want you to look just like everybody else. I meet you, I want you to be able to do things on my own. I want you to be able to hold a coffee, a cup of coffee in my hand. I want to be normal, which is fine, but living in normal, that's not who we are. And I keep emphasizing that you have a purpose in life. What is your purpose? There's a reason why we're all here on this earth. And with that purpose, you need to be able to serve.

Michelle K:

Do you want to be normal? Do you want to remain and just being enough? And our purpose is not just being enough. And I think a lot of people, a lot of listener might resonate with this because we're constantly thinking about, “Oh, it's not enough. We're not good enough. We're not pretty enough.” Well, why even bother settling for enough? What if the idea is that you are more than enough? What if the whole idea is for you to find your purpose, find your strength so that you can use that purpose, use that strength to serve others who needs your help? Whatever that strength that you have, that is your purpose, that is your gem, that's your diamond.

Michelle K:

For me, the way that I found it and how did I begin to see myself as a diamond is I start to realize, and this is actually just happened recently, I finally had an aha moment just a couple of weeks ago and I spent all my life wanting to be normal, and my book was talking about normal, like being perfectly normal. But I'm here, I am here in the middle of the road and that was my past. I've already done that. I am more than normal. I climbed Machu Picchu, I did all that. I'm able to hike. I did all these things, but that's not normal. That's not normal at all.

Michelle K:

People can't do that. People can't just wake up one night and they say, “You know what? I'm going to go high Machu Picchu.” No, that's not normal at all. I'd done something very extraordinary that not many people can do. Why not accept yourself for your extraordinary? Why not accept yourself for who you are? You are more than just enough. Why not accept yourself for the gift that was given to you? And then that was my aha moment. I said, “HUH,” so I lived all my life just wanting to be normal. But in fact, there's nothing normal about me. I'm really abnormal. I'm unique, I'm different, and I'm embracing it. I'm going to live it, I'm going to love it.

Warwick F:

And that's a profound message that we all want to fit in, be normal. But I guess why be normal? I mean, as you said, we're all unique, extraordinary in some sense. We're all designed a unique way, with certain backgrounds, talents, skills. We all have a different purpose. Normal is overrated. Why be normal? Why not just embrace being extraordinary, embrace being different? Because everybody's different. Why fit in? Fitting in is limiting, you know? And it sounded like your whole attitude to life changed.

Warwick F:

Talk about how you do pharmacy, but I know you do a lot of coaching and writing, and speaking. Talk about what is, it's a word that's tough to embrace for most of us, but talk about in what ways is Michelle unique, a gem, a diamond, even extraordinary, if you will. How does that manifest itself? What is your purpose in the world, do you feel?

Michelle K:

My purpose in the world is to inspire. I do everything. One of the things that I do very often is to speak about my story and the journey that I came through, and how I was in that place of feeling sorry about myself and just playing small, from the fact that today I see myself as a diamond. It sounds very like I give myself a lot of credit, but I truly feel that I am the diamond. And in order to have this contrary journey, there's a breakthrough moment. There's an aha moment that I finally said, “You know what? I'm going to step in. I'm going to start doing this.” That is my inspiration for everyone and my purpose is to inspire those to start to lead for themselves.

Michelle K:

And I think self-leadership is such a very important process and message that the world needs to learn and to hear. Because through self-leadership, you become the best version of yourself. And when you are the best version of yourself, you start to influence all these others around you. You start setting up example for them. You start showing them the way to lead their life. You're not telling them how to lead their life. You're showing them that it is possible through this crucible moment that you can find your way and make yourself shine, make yourself stand out.

Warwick F:

And what you're saying is so profound. I think one of the things I've also found in my own life and I think some or many others have, is as you take your focus off yourself on to other people, how can I help others? How can I inspire them? How can I… it's not just overcoming your own demons or your own self-limiting thoughts for yourself, by doing that, you help to inspire others. It's almost like the, I wouldn't say the challenge is greater, but the challenge is even more inspiring. It's what is the purpose of getting up? And part of it is you want to inspire others.

Warwick F:

And so, as you're focusing on others, it helps you feel less focused on yourself and how you look. Because when you focus on others, there's not as much room to think about yourself, right? There's what I call a healing balm, like a healing ointment, if you will, by focusing on others. Have you felt that just within your own spirit, as you focused on others? There's a healing component to that, right?

Michelle K:

Absolutely. And when we start looking at the bigger picture, that's where the healing comes in. Because you're no longer focusing on the wellbeing of yourself, you're focusing more on the wellbeing of the society, the community within your family. You still have that broader view of life.

Gary S:

We're at the point of the show where we're going to have to begin to not land the plane yet, but I think the captain's turned on the fasten seatbelts sign. We're starting our descent a little bit. But one thing to follow up on that point, Michelle, one of the really a blessing in getting to know you even before we started this interview, is you are very connected on social media. And after we first talked, you sent me a friend request on Facebook, and I have so enjoyed watching you live your life and the way that you live your life, and the way that you encourage people with exactly what you just talked about. Being focused on bringing joy to people, being focused on not what limits us, but the things that we can do.

Gary S:

And one of the things I said at the outset when I read your bio, the last line, if you're looking for a Michele, odds are you'll find her at the gym. There's a video you posted on social media a couple of days ago and it speaks to this entire story that we've been talking about. On one side, there's a photograph of you with your arm crutches, somewhat at some point after your accident. Obviously, you're older but you're still using those to get around quite a bit. And then the video is you-

Michelle K:

Doing a jump rope.

Gary S:

Right? You're skipping rope and you're not just skipping rope like I'd skip rope. Okay? You're skipping rope like Sylvester Stallone in Rocky. You are skipping rope like a prize fighter. You are skipping rope fast. You are skipping rope well. I mean, it is in 45 seconds, hugely, hugely inspirational. In the time that we have left, first of all, let listeners know how they can connect with you to maybe hear some of the things that you can help them along their route as they're going through their bounce back from their crucible.

Michelle K:

They can definitely find me on my website at elevatelifecoaching.org, or if they like, they can definitely follow me on Instagram, which I'm very active on Instagram. It's a Elevate Life Coach.

Warwick F:

Michelle, you have such an inspiring story, that it's one thing to have a physical limitation, but you've changed your whole perspective. You view yourself as, I don't know, to me, a lot better than normal. You view yourself as, as we all should, as a diamond, uniquely created. We all have extraordinary attributes. You've changed the way you're thinking and your focus on the helping and inspiring others. I mean, rather than being normal, you're somebody that people admire. You're somebody that people look up to. I know that you probably think, “Well, how could anybody look up to me?”

Michelle K:

They're probably looking down on me.

Warwick F:

I'm 4-foot something but yet people do look up to you. In that moment when you were on top of those stairs at Machu Picchu, people were saying, “This is one extraordinary woman. This is somebody I admire. This is somebody that can teach me a lot.” It's very difficult to change your way of thinking, but you've done… I mean, that is miraculous. That is extraordinary. You are, in a sense, a role model.

Michelle K:

Thank you.

Warwick F:

Helping people see that we all have limitations. Most people feel bad about themselves. I mean, if you take off the mask, give them truth serum, most people do or many people do. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but not much. But yet you're giving people hope. Your limitations are clear. For many, it's not so clear, it's internal, but you've changed the way you're thinking. You give hope that we all can change the way we think and focus on helping others, and using our extraordinary qualities we all have to help others. You have an amazing story, an amazing mission. Thank you for what you bring to the world.

Michelle K:

Thank you.

Gary S:

And one last thing I have to ask because I'm going to go back to this form that we had you fill out, and we ask every guest the same question at the end. If we could only ask you one question, what would that question be? And no offense to our previous guests, but your answer to that question is the best one I've seen. And this is what you said when we asked if there was only one question we could ask you, what would you want it to be? And I'd love for you to answer this question. Here's how you answered our question and then you can answer your own question. Fill in the blank. You said the world needs what? What does the world need, Michelle?

Michelle K:

The world needs more love.

Gary S:

On that note, listeners. See, I'm sitting there thinking it's going to be a nice long. No, it's very inspiring. And when you can make me like at a loss for words, you've done something, so bravo. But thank you truly, thank you truly for that. I mean, because that summarizes what you're talking about, I think. And listeners, thank you for joining us today on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. There's a few things from Michelle's story I was taking notes on as she was saying them that I hope you heard as well, and I want to accent again before we go because I think there's some good takeaways.

Gary S:

There are far more good takeaways from her story than the three I've written down, but here's three that as you look at your own crucible experiences, as you look at your own desire to bounce back from those to embrace your vision and live a life of significance, here's three things that Michelle has talked about today that I think you can apply to your own life. The first thing is that it's true that crucibles can change the things you love to do and they can even change your ability to do certain things, but you can conquer so much of that with a positive attitude and positive action.

Gary S:

The second takeaway I think from Michelle's story, and this is a powerful thing, and she said it herself here in our conversation that it's hard, but press through how hard it is and do it. Second takeaway point, ask for help. The key to overcoming crucibles, Warwick has talked about it many times, is having a team of people around you, formal or informal, professional or personal. Ask for help. There are people out there who want to help you, who are willing to help you and who are able to help you.

Gary S:

And then the third point, I think that all of us would do well to follow in our crucible experiences, that in order to overcome emotional challenges, Michelle talked about it in depth. In order to overcome emotional challenges tied to your crucible, you have to accept the reality of your crucible. Pretending it's not there, pretending it didn't happen, pretending there aren't repercussions of it isn't going to work. You have to accept the reality of it. But don't camp out there, like we said at the outset. Let it inspire you to action, both in the way that you think about yourself and others, in the way that you act in to yourself and to others. Yes, it's real, but you can make it. You can find the diamond inside.

Gary S:

That's all the time we have, but thank you again for joining us on Beyond the Crucible. We'd ask you for a quick favor, listener, if you can do it right now on whatever podcast app you're listening to this show on, click the Subscribe button. What that will do is make sure that you don't miss any episodes of what we talk about here on Beyond the Crucible. It will also help us to reach more people with inspiring stories, with hopeful stories, with stories filled with joy and laughter like Michelle's. A quick subscribe, share it with friends. That will be a huge benefit to, I think, your friends and a huge benefit to us as we can share the realities of how people are overcoming their crucibles and the hope and healing that comes from that.

Gary S:

Until we're together next time, remember that crucible experiences are real. They do happen. They can be devastating, but they are not. Michelle Kuei's story proves that they are not the end of your story. They are the beginning of a new chapter of your story if you choose to dive into them and learn the lessons of them. And that chapter of your new story can be the best one yet because it points you toward, leads you to a life of significance.

Like any good Christmas movie, Die Hard ends on a festive musical note – the yuletide favorite “Let it Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!” Along the way, cinematic flourishes associated with The Most Wonderful Time of the Year abound: a big holiday office party, family traveling to join each other to celebrate, characters wearing Santa hats and other clothing that spotlights the season, plastic explosives blowing off the top of a newly built skyscraper.

OK, that last one is a little out of the ordinary for a Christmas film. So is all the gunplay, the terrorists-turned-thieves looking to swipe $640 million in negotiable bearer bonds, the greatest splash of red coming not from wrapped presents but from the protagonist’s wrapped foot after he is forced to run barefoot through glass shattered by machine-gun fire. Those points explain why there are sharp divisions on social media and around the dinner table this time of year about whether Die Hard is really a Christmas movie at all.

In fact, a 2020 poll by YouGuv (not exactly Gallup, but this is not exactly electing the next president) found that only 34 percent of Americans surveyed believe the 1988 action thriller that made Bruce Willis a movie star is also a Christmas film, compared to 44 percent who aren’t buying it. No matter which side you find yourself on regarding that question, though, there is no disputing that Die Hard spotlights insights into moving beyond setbacks and failures in pursuit of a life of significance.

Christmas movie? Up for debate. Crucible movie? Without a doubt.

Consider these key Crucible Leadership teachings and how you might apply them to your life the next time you watch Die Hard (even if it’s after Dec.25):

1. Crucibles often come in bunches, and even though weariness can set in, keep taking one small step toward making your vision a reality

Willis’ character, John McClane, is a New York cop visiting Los Angeles to see his estranged wife Holly (Bonnie Bedelia) and their two young children for the holidays. That’s crucible No. 1 – a troubled family life. But McClane hasn’t even dipped his toe into the snowbank of trials he will face.

He arrives at Nakatomi Plaza on Christmas Eve for the Nakatomi Corp.’s company party, dropped off by his chatty limo driver Argyle (De’voreaux White), who agrees to hang around in case the family reunion doesn’t go so well. It doesn’t. Seeing Holly again is not hugs and kisses and “I’ve missed yous”; they squabble about why she’s now using her maiden name, Gennero – and that’s the last time they’ll talk to each other until the end of the picture because of the cavalcade of crucibles that come.

The unraveling begins when Hans Gruber (Alan Rickman) and his henchman arrive at Nakatomi Plaza, kill the security guards and cut all communications, then kidnap and terrorize the party guests – all while John is still in the bathroom cleaning up after his flight. When he hears the gunshots, he’s barefoot (his cabin neighbor on the plane gave him the tip that to relax after air travel anxiety, he should “make fists with his toes” after landing), but he grabs his holster and weapon and runs out to see what’s going on and how he might help.

The crucibles come fast and furious after that, all rooted in McClane trying to stay alive and free the hostages Gruber and his men have taken to make it appear they want something other than all that money in the vault. As the terrorists hunt him down, every little victory runs headlong into another defeat, and our hero can’t seem to fully extricate himself from the corners he gets backed into and the tight spaces he winds up in as he tries to escape.

But here’s the relevant point to apply to our own, likely less chaotic and life-threatening crucibles: Don’t give up. And don’t try to jump to the end. Take one small step, followed by another small step, tackling the challenge right in front of you before moving on to the one behind that. String together enough of these little victories and you wind up with the big win you’re aiming at.

2. Keep your sense of humor

John McClane does not take himself too seriously – and he certainly doesn’t meet his crucibles with somber depression. He finds the humor in his plight, as deadly serious as it is. Like the gag he pulls after killing the first henchman: Sending him a down in the elevator to where Hans and Co. are holding their hostages, having plopped a Santa hat on the dead man’s head and written on his sweatshirt: “Now I have a machine gun. Ho-Ho-Ho.” It’s his way of letting the black hats know there’s a white hat on the job – and it’s done with panache.

Similar dashes of humor come from his running dialogue with himself. Alone in the building, capture or death lurking around every corner, he keeps his spirits up by keeping his mood as light as possible. After realizing the first terrorist he kills will not be able to help him solve his footwear problem, he monologues incredulously, “Nine million terrorists in the world and I gotta kill one with feet smaller than my sister.” Later, while crawling through the building’s air ducts to evade his pursuers, he flips on a Zippo lighter he took from one of the other terrorists he neutralized and quips as he tries to navigate his way forward, channeling Holly: “Come out to the coast. We’ll get together, have a few laughs.”

Lines and actions like these give Die Hard a joie de vivre that helped redefine action films in the ’80s, but in the context of the plot they serve to cushion the blow of the crucibles McClane keeps suffering. We’ve all heard the phrase “laughter is the best medicine”; this is true even/especially when the sickness we’re fighting is moving beyond a crucible. The most tragic circumstances can be met with an attitude of hopeful optimism. We don’t laugh because what we’re going through is funny, but because it helps stabilize our spirits to meet the challenges – emotional and otherwise – we’ll encounter on our path to significance.

3. You need a team of fellow travelers

McClane is often painted as the lone-wolf everyman hero, but that perspective overlooks two relationships critical to his saving the day. Without Al Powell (Reginald VelJohnson, the Twinkie-eating cop) and Argyle, he wouldn’t achieve his goals.

Powell’s chief role is to be his confidante and cheerleader. After a rough start to their relationship (McClane prevents him from leaving Nakatomi Plaza before becoming aware of the hostage crisis by throwing one of the terrorists he killed out a 32nd floor window and onto Powell’s police cruiser), Powell offers a sympathetic ear and actionable intelligence. They bond over their disdain for law-enforcement bureaucracy and love for their families. And when fatigue and discouragement turn McClane fatalistic, he turns to Powell to carry a message to Holly when it’s all over: “She’s heard me say ‘I love you’ a thousand times. She’s never heard me say ‘I’m sorry.’ I want you to tell her that John said he was sorry.” Powell refuses to let his new friend give in to the grief of his crucible. “You can tell her that yourself,” he replies.

Later, when McClane kills Hans during the film’s climax, we learn it’s not really the climax at all: that comes when John and Holly (have we mentioned her name is a word strongly associated with Christmas?), reunited and having rekindled their love, are heading away as the exploded building drops bearer bonds all around them. On their slow walk to happily ever after (remember, this was before the sequels when we didn’t know the full arc of their five-film romantic journey), a terrorist it seemed John had killed leaps up and points a machine gun at them, only to be stopped by Powell – who draws his revolver for the first time since he accidentally shot a kid.

And Argyle? After spending most of the movie listening to music and chatting up women on the car phone in the parking garage (which he is not even aware has been locked down), he hears a news report of the Nakatomi takeover and drives into a better position to act if given the opportunity. He finally gets that chance when the terrorists’ electronics whiz fetches the getaway car (an ambulance, actually) and Argyle stops him by ramming his vehicle with the limo.

The lessons here for us are clear. Don’t go it alone when fighting through crucibles. Confide in others. Lean on them. Take their counsel and encouragement to heart. Let them apply their abilities and expertise to help us achieve our vision. Powell saves McClane’s life. Argyle saves his significance. Which leads us to …

4. Success is great, but significance is greater

The big payoff in Die Hard is not that McClane saves the day from greedy, nattily dressed terrorists. It’s that he reunites with his wife and children, and they become a family again. Yes, as we’ve hinted at, more familial crucibles come in the sequels (John and Holly are estranged again in No. 3, he and his daughter Lucy are at loggerheads in No. 4, and he and his son Jack have some issues to work through in No. 5). But based on what we see in Die Hard II, when John has left New York to join the LAPD and support Holly in her career with the Nakatomi Corp., he was living a life on purpose in service to others – his family.

You might even say that Christmas is saved by the reconciliation of the McClanes at the end of Die Hard – just as it is saved by Scrooge’s change of heart in A Christmas Carol, by the residents of Bedford Falls bailing George Bailey out of his jam in It’s a Wonderful Life or by Rudolph with this nose so bright guiding Santa’s sleigh in Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer.

But, if you do come to and express that Christmas conclusion, be prepared for some dissenting opinions as you pass around the coffee and the pumpkin pie.

Reflection

Order Crucible Leadership here

This has been a banner year for Crucible Leadership, so founder Warwick Fairfax discusses his gratitude for all that’s happened in 2021 – from the release of his book, to some life-changing insights from our podcast guests, to his excitement – mixed with a little surprise – over the appreciative reception he’s experienced on the first leg of his speaking tour.  Why are we taking the time to revisit the highlights of the past 12 months? Because Warwick believes gratitude is one of the most important keys to unlocking a life of significance – and rocket fuel for tackling new opportunities to propel ourselves forward for the next 12 months.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Warwick F:

One venue we're at, all of the books went and I don't know, stacks of people signed up to get a book. And there was a line, seemingly a mile long for students in one location at the end of the day wanting me to sign the book. It blew my mind. I mean, it was just, so the reaction by all folks, business folks, but certainly, students, it's like it felt like this book mattered to them. My story the lessons learned about living a life of significance. As we say, often you're not defined by your worst day, how you can get over that worst day and just live a life of significance a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. I mean, it was such a blessing to see that my book was helping people.

Gary S:

What you just heard was not a man taking a victory lap or giving and accepting high fives, puffing out his chest over his accomplishments. No. What you just heard was Warwick, the host of this podcast, talking about just one of the blessings he feels has come his way in the year, quickly drawing to a close. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger his co-host. And what you'll hear this week is a conversation between me and Warwick, in which he expresses his gratitude for all that's happened for Crucible Leadership in 2021.

Gary S:

From the release of his book, to some life changing insights from our podcast guests to the excitement, mixed with a little bit of surprise, over the appreciative reception he's experienced on the first leg of his speaking tour. Why are we taking the time to revisit the highlights of the past 12 months? Because Warwick believes that gratitude is one of the most important keys to unlocking a life of significance and rocket fuel for tackling new opportunities to propel ourselves forward for the next 12 months.

Warwick F:

This time of year, with the holidays coming up, we've got Thanksgiving, Hanukkah, Christmas, New Year. Many folks are going to be with families in the US and just different parts of the world. And as you're with families, it's a time to pause and reflect. And hopefully, I think, in an ideal sense, it's a time to be grateful, to be thankful and really, just to count your blessings, so to speak. So, as I look back on this last year, certainly personally, but definitely professionally with Crucible Leadership, I truly feel blessed.

Warwick F:

So often, life is so busy. I think human nature is such we tend to focus more on what irritates us or our deficiencies or challenging relationships, all of which is totally normal. And when a good thing happens, we go, "Oh, that's nice," and we just promptly forget it and move on. So, it takes more work to think of our blessings than our trials. Trials bring pain. Pain forces us to remember and not forget or left to its own devices. So, I think it's a good exercise to focus on how we're blessed in this last year and don't just skip over it. So, that's kind of what we're going to do here. It's going to be some broader lessons learned for I think all of us, but part of the springboard is just the sense of feeling blessed in Crucible Leadership and what's been happening. So, that's kind of the thought, it's just taking stock of our blessings and being grateful.

Gary S:

If I had to summarize the subjects that we're going to discuss, I'll channel my mother's Southern heritage and I'll say that it's all about, this episode is all about blessings and lessons, right? We're going to talk about blessings and we're going to talk about the lessons that those blessings have imparted to us as we look to move beyond our crucible. And we hope listener, that they'll also be encouraging and equipping to you.

Gary S:

An interesting point, Warwick that you just made there about particularly around the holidays. Thanksgiving has passed by the time listeners hear this. The other holidays, Christmas and New Year's, are coming up. But you mentioned that we can easily focus on the opposite of blessings - what we don't have, what's gone wrong, worry those kinds of things. Why do you think that's both so common and why do you think that's dangerous as we go into this time of year?

Warwick F:

Yeah, it's a good question. I think as you focus on your trials, challenging relationships, I mean, for some gathering with family in the holidays, is a blessed event. For others, they look forward to it with dread or maybe they've lost a loved one. And so, gathering together with the Christmas dinner table or Thanksgiving, it can be a time to remember what you don't have. That loved one is no longer there - a husband, a wife, partner, parents, grandparents. It's all understandable, but grieving is a part of certainly the process, but if you just focus on trials, you tend to get stuck.

Warwick F:

And if you want to live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, which is what we're all about here at Crucible Leadership, at a certain point, you don't ignore the grief, you honor those who are no longer with us. But you also have to, not move on, but in a sense, maybe honor their memory by living life to the fullest. And part of living life to the fullest is just being grateful, being thankful. Because counting your blessings to use that oft used aphorism, it does give you sort of rocket fuel. It's like turbo power to help you really contribute to the world, so it's not just doing it for the sake of it. It's a really important exercise that's both encouraging to you and it can be encouraging to others.

Warwick F:

So, it's a very important thing to do because if you just wallow in your pain, however understandable it is, not only are you not helping yourself, you will typically not help others. And in the extreme when you wallow in your pain, not only is it not helpful to you, you might end up hurting other people, especially those you love, which is never what you want to do. Nobody wants to hurt people they care about. So, grief is a real part of loss and I honor that, but you've got to also count your blessings. You've got to focus on gratitude and what you're grateful for. It's just really important to do that.

Gary S:

And as we talk about at Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible, this idea of did a crucible happen to you or for you, I think what you're saying there is, can you find things that are positive that happened for you. For instance, I mean, I'll just use my example. As we're recording this episode, my father's birthday would have been tomorrow. He passed away this summer, at age 93. It is going to be a difficult day. I can choose to feel bad about that, be sad about that, and I will be. I can live there, camp there, or I can focus on the things not that my father left me, but what my father left me.

Gary S:

I can find those learnings there and use those to, as you have said, calm my spirit, center my soul, give me energy and passion for today. Find those silver linings in the clouds, which we urge people to do through crucibles all the time. That applies as well to this holiday season and to not being knocked down by those emotional things that might tug at us, but pushing through them, learning lessons from them and indeed finding blessing in them.

Warwick F:

Yeah, I mean, it's such a good point. I mean, as we're talking here, Gary, both of us have lost our parents. I had lost my mother a few years ago, 2017. My dad a very long time ago, in early 1987. He was in his 80s when he died. He was a lot older when he had me, so it's easy to focus on a loss and we'll be spending Christmas here in Maryland where we live now, not in Australia and we no longer have the house we grew up in. There's a lot of things we'll never experience, so I could focus on all of that.

Warwick F:

Or I could focus on just wonderful memories of having Christmas Day in Australia in Sydney, which is because Australia is on the other side of the world, it's simply the hottest day of the year, which is obviously different than a lot of North America. And just think of those happy memories. We all have them and just to give you one example one happy memory that I have is Christmas Eve, we would gather in one of the rooms that what was a large house in Sydney. And there was a grand piano there and we would sing in Christmas carols. Well, a lot of people do that, but my younger brother and sister, my parents, we would always have this ritual in which my dad would begin to play the piano with two hands.

Warwick F:

Now at that point growing up, he's in his 60s and 70s, he really hadn't played the piano in I don't know, 50 odd years. He probably was never really that good, so we'd always start off with two hands and he'd always start off with, his favorite Christmas carol was Hark the Herald Angels. So, we'd be like, "Hark," wait, wait a second, hang on, hang on. "The," okay, just a minute. "Herald." And we'd be like, "Dad, okay, just go to one hand." Eventually, he'd go to one hand, and then we get through it. Every single year, it would always be the same. Start off with two hands, couldn't do it.

Warwick F:

And so, that's a happy memory of gathering around the piano singing Christmas carols. And it was it's a happy memory, because it was all so comical with the two hands, go to one hand. So, we all have those memories in our past. So, focus on those happy memories rather than the sense of loss. And I'm sure, obviously, you would have, we all have those memories. I'm sure you do, too. So, focus on those happy memories around this time and why we're blessed rather than the sense of loss.

Gary S:

Absolutely. Moving now into specifically Crucible Leadership territory. Over the last several months, listeners may have picked it up if they've really listened closely to some of the episodes prior to this one. But you've had a kind of a significant shift in your thinking about crucibles vis-à-vis blessings, just over the last several months. Talk about that a little bit as we then sort of transition into what are some of the blessings that we've enjoyed in 2021.

Warwick F:

Yeah, and we'll talk more about it as we progress, but one of the interesting things is, we've had maybe like 90 plus episodes of our podcast Beyond the Crucible, 70 plus guests. And one of the things I really enjoy is we learn so much from our guests. We had a Resilience series recently. And, there was a woman, Stacey Copas, Australian woman who was injured in a diving accident, an above ground pool in the suburbs of Sydney. She was about 12, I think, at that time, somewhere around there. And like a lot of kids, they just sort of ignore their parents' advice, which "Don't dive into the pool. It's not that deep." And "Yeah, sure, whatever, mom, dad." She did and she was diagnosed as a quadriplegic.

Warwick F:

That was devastating, as you would expect. She had some substance abuse issues in her teens, but now, she is just this vibrant, happy woman that coaches, that speaks and helps. Actually, coach and speak on resilience and she views what she went through as a gift, almost as a blessing. I mean, nobody would want to go through that kind of crucible or anything. But like what we've picked up from her, and indeed many of our guests, is they obviously don't like what they went through. Whether it was their fault or not their fault, but they're using their pain for a purpose. They're seeing it in terms of a blessing.

Warwick F:

So, I don't know that I ever would have looked back and said what I went through was a blessing before or a gift. I would say a lot, some good things came out of it. I learned a lot. I'm doing what I love. But I think it's been a bit of an evolution in terms of well, maybe, it was a blessing, maybe it was a gift. So, that's certainly been an evolution of my thinking and just the great value of learning from other people. Every human being, I think, has something to teach us, if we will let them. And certainly, I have learned from all our guests and most recently, I certainly learned from Stacey Copas.

Gary S:

And since I am your PR guy as well as the co-host of this show, I think that now gives me the right or the opportunity to put out a press release that says, "He lost $2.25 billion and says it's a gift." Okay, maybe we'll talk more about that. Maybe we'll have to talk more about that, but that would be a headline.

Warwick F:

Indeed.

Gary S:

That would be a headline on a press release that would catch the media's attention, for sure.

Warwick F:

Indeed.

Gary S:

Let's shift a little bit now into a more traditional discussion of what blessing is and sort of the meat and potatoes of what this show is about. And that is 2021 was a pretty phenomenal year for Crucible Leadership, wasn't it?

Warwick F:

Yeah. It's interesting. Part of the genesis of the idea for this episode is recently, we were discussing with our team, "So what happened in 2021?" Because basically, in order to start thinking of plans for 2022, standard strategic planning kind of process is what worked well? What could have worked better? What are some of the strengths? What are some of the areas we want to improve? Standard stuff that most businesses go through periodically. And that is a springboard for, "Okay, so what we want to do utilizing our strengths, for instance, for next year? Because there's a lot of things we could do, but what do we want to focus on.

Warwick F:

So as we were having this discussion and going down the list of the things that happened in 2021, it's easy to forget them in a sense of when you're in the trenches focusing on, "Okay, what do we need to do today? How do we fix this or that? What are we going to do tomorrow?" It's easy to get lost in the weeds in the trenches and day-to-day hustle and bustle of activities.

Warwick F:

But as we were going through the list of things that happened, it's like, "Oh, my gosh. I do indeed feel blessed." I do indeed feel blessings have been showered on me from my perspective, being a person of faith to the Lord. I have a lot to be grateful for, a lot to be thankful for. And so, I did in a sense as I was in the middle of that meeting, just a few days ago, I just felt blessed.

Warwick F:

And obviously, the biggest one is the book, Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance. That was in some sense, you could say 30 plus years in the making from the day of the takeover, 1987. It was probably at least 12 years in the making. As listeners would know, I've often told the story. In 2008, my pastor wanted, in sort of church we go to in Annapolis, Maryland, he was giving a sermon on the life of David, being a righteous man falsely persecuted by King Saul. I'm not David, but I gave a 10-, 12-minute talk.

Warwick F:

Somehow people felt like my story and the lessons learned was very helpful. Hence, at that point, I felt led to write a lessons learned book. It took years to write and then years to get it published. You've got to build a brand, create a following. And that culminated in a book deal with Mount Tabor Media and Morgan James. And as of October 19, this fall, it was published. Well, that's at least 12 plus years in the making, if not more, depending on how you look at it.

Warwick F:

And I feel blessed to actually have a book. It looks good. It went through a lot of, some editing, which you were a part of, and I feel good about it. I feel like this is a book I'm actually proud of. I think it's something that can really help people, but when you have that kind of book and it's taken so long to get there, you cannot help but be blessed. Well, you should feel blessed and you should be grateful. From my perspective, I'm grateful to the Lord for making it possible. So that's, that was probably the biggest blessing this year and that's no small thing to have a book published. So yeah, I feel blessed.

Gary S:

Let me pause here before we move on, to tie a ribbon on that mention of the book, and also set the stage for what's coming next. If you've listened to this show, once or twice before, listener, you know that Warwick is not an ego-driven person. Warwick is not talking about the book here to say, "Look at me, I got a book published." The reason to sort of take this tour of blessings, as we've talked about, it isn't to spike the football, to use a term you've used offline with me, Warwick. It's to create energy and ideas for growing and cementing the life of significance moving forward.

Gary S:

Everything that you're going to talk about here as a blessing, a key moment in 2021 for Crucible Leadership in that meeting that we had as a team sparked ideas for things we can do to take it further in 2022. So, let's be clear. This is not a "Hey, look at me, I had a great year in 2021." It's, "Here's the things that happened in 2021 that give us energy and ideas and passion and purpose for moving on to give you, listener, more content, more hope in 2022." That's fair, isn't it?

Warwick F:

Absolutely. I mean, there's a phrase, I'm sure many of us have heard, "Having an attitude of gratitude." There's a fair amount of books that are printed on gratitude, so it's certainly popular in our culture, but there's a reason for it is that as you're thankful and grateful, it fuels you with energy to take the next positive step. So this book, which we'll take too long to get into, but there were many positive steps.

Warwick F:

I mean, I had some great conversations with potential publishers in Australia a number of years ago. That didn't quite work out just because of the market needs in Australia and what they were looking for and what I was looking for. And there's a couple of editors in Australia that helped me. Then here, we had some recently more editing. We had a fantastic person help us with the cover design, interior design, great team at Morgan James. We walked together in those final editing stages.

Warwick F:

The point is behind this major blessing of getting Crucible Leadership published, there were many blessings along the way. There were positive steps that I was grateful for, that fuelled me with energy to take the next step. Okay, we've got, more of a structural edit. Fantastic. Let's do more of a proofreading edit. Let's make sure we get a great cover designer. Terrific. Let's make sure we get a great designer for interior layouts. All of these things, this major blessing was a compilation of mini blessings. And so having a positive, yeah, obviously, a vision that you're off the charts passionate about, but by being grateful each step of the way, it helps make this bigger blessing possible.

Warwick F:

So, your attitude as you pursue it is huge. If it's like, "Oh, my gosh. This is so much work." Year after year goes by. I couldn't quite seem to make it work in Australia. "Oh, it will never happen and oh, my gosh, it takes so long. And gosh, to go through each chapter." And it was 100,000 words initially and Morgan James very rightly said, "We want it more like 80,000." And be like, "Oh, my gosh, here we go again. What's this edit number, 800?" It wasn't edit number 800. It felt like it. So, I could have had...

Gary S:

I think it was 807.

Warwick F:

Yeah. There you go.

Gary S:

If I remember correctly.

Warwick F:

So, rather than an attitude of gratitude, I could have had an attitude of whining or as we say in Australia, which is worse, an attitude of "whinging," which is like whining squared. I could have complained all the way. What would complaining and whining and whinging or being irritated have done? It would have guaranteed the book never got published. I would have said, "It's all too much. Let's give up." But by being grateful and positive, good things happened.

Warwick F:

So, that's some really important lessons in getting this book published. Not just about the book, it's your attitude can fuel the direction of your life. It can fuel your success frankly. Your attitude can also doom you to misery and failure. You want to guarantee that you will fail, irrespective of what other people do, be grouchy, grumpy, whiny, whingey, and complain every second of the day, and I guarantee you that success won't happen. It's guaranteed if you follow that path, you won't succeed at anything.

Gary S:

And in Crucible Leadership terms, not only will success not happen, but the other S-word, significance won't happen and that's truly a trauma. That's a crucible oven by itself if you're living a life of quiet insignificance, to paraphrase what you quote Thoreau was saying.

Warwick F:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, as you say, you don't want to, in the words of Henry David Thoreau, lead lives of quiet desperation. You go to work every day and it's just, everything is miserable. Your whole life you think is just awful. You just, you hate the thought of coming home. You hate the thought of going to work. You might even hate the thought of being alive. At least as far as you can change that with your attitude, you want to, I realize there are some circumstances that are very challenging, but you don't need to make it worse with your attitude that can make a difficult situation far worse. So, attitude is everything and that's really why we're talking about it. So, yeah, the book was huge. There's no question.

Gary S:

But the book was not the only blessing of 2021. What else? Again, a blessing that helped fuel your passion that allowed you to work in your giftings and your vision. What else happened in 2021 that you want to single out as a blessing?

Warwick F:

Yeah, as you're talking, Gary, I think and as we're going through each of these items, it's important to note that the reason, one of the reasons they're a blessing is that I'm not a take no prisoners kind of corporate executive, as I often say. Maybe it was arguably needed in my Fairfax Media days. I'm more of a reflective advisor, a writer, a thinker, now, speaker. I love learning and listening, so everything that we do is in line with my design, from my perspective, divine design.

Warwick F:

We don't do things that are off-brand or something that I don't have remote kind of gifting for, because that would make no sense. So, one of the things that really, we've done this year, we started a podcast. I think, a couple of years ago, this fall and Beyond the Crucible, which is what you're listening to now and we took some significant steps forward this year. For the first time, we had a whole series. We had a six week series called Resilience.

Warwick F:

And really, one of the things that's definitely helped us with is the folks at Content Capital, who helped produce our podcast. That Resilience series was huge to have a series based on a certain theme that have helped with our marketing efforts to take our downloads and be able to have our message reach a broader audience.

Warwick F:

Same folks at Content Capital also have an arm that does audiobooks. And so I was thinking, not everybody does it, but I was thinking, I'd love to have an audio book and they have a division that does that. And so I spent a week in Austin, Texas, in August, in sort of a sound booth. And they had a Grammy Award winning sound engineer behind the booth, so to speak, which is, pretty impressive to have that level of quality. And...

Gary S:

Absolutely.

Warwick F:

... so, I kind of narrated the whole book. It was a long week, but took plenty of breaks. And so I actually, it sounds weird, I actually almost enjoy listening to the audiobook because I'm hearing my own understated passion. It takes a lot for me to say that, but they did such a great job.

Gary S:

Absolutely.

Warwick F:

So, they helped take our podcast and the audio book to another level. And just the quality of guests we've had on the podcast. I mentioned Stacey Copas. We've had a bunch of others that I've really learnt so much from. So, I just love learning about from people that I knew nothing about. Another example is we had Jason Hardrath on. Actually, I think it's a very recent episode. Maybe the episode-

Gary S:

Yeah, just a couple of weeks ago.

Warwick F:

Yeah, shortly before this. And here's somebody that had an accident in 2015, stopped him doing triathlons and running. But he shifted to mountain climbing, which he could still do just because the way his knee was injured, he could kind of go up easier than he could run on horizontal ground. And he has an ADHD challenge. But I learned so much from him because of his challenge, he has a gift, which is he has no fear.

Warwick F:

He will just try crazy things like, "Gee, I can barely swim three laps of a pool. I'm going to sign up for a triathlon, which involves what, like 2.4-mile swim" or something like that. And nobody would tend to do that. It's like, "Well, okay, if I can hit a mile swim maybe I'll sign up for a triathlon in six months." But because of his challenge, he holds no fear. It's like, "Gosh, I can learn from Jason. The sense of set a goal but don't have fear." Plan, but just go for it.

Warwick F:

Too many people fail not because they're not going for things because they're not willing to try. So, that had a huge impact on me as I reflect on that gift that Jason gave to me. His lack of fear. He's willing just to go for it, because I'm more plan, plan, plan, think, think, think, then stick my toe in the water, then go back and plan think some more. Now, I'm exaggerating. I'm not as bad as I used to be.

Gary S:

Not much. Not much.

Warwick F:

I'm cautious by nature, fearful, even. But, so what we've achieved with my natural, fearful, cautious design 2021 is nothing short of a miracle. Because you would look at it to say, "How could a fearful person accomplish everything that we've done and we have even got to speeches. Speaking of fear. I mean, oh, my gosh, I used to say-

Gary S:

Before we go there, let me rewind a little bit and talk a couple of things about what you just mentioned. First, the Resilience podcast series, Harnessing Resilience. I encourage you, listener, if you haven't picked that up, go back into our archive and grab the Harnessing Resilience six-part series. Strong guests, who have harnessed resilience in a variety of different ways, both anecdotally, experientially and then also we have some research about what leads to resilience.

Gary S:

But one of the things from that show that really was spot-lit for us here at Beyond the Crucible was that resilience is nearly impossible, if not truly impossible, to move beyond your crucible, as the show is called, if you do not have resilience. And Stacey Copas is sort of becoming the MVP of this conversation, because we've mentioned her now three or four times. But Stacey says something, something in that, in her episode of that series, where she talks about resilience as something that happens where you're crucible is kind of like being on a trampoline. And the lower down your crucible takes you, the higher up resilience can launch you. And that was a real learning point for me.

Gary S:

So as you talk about learning points and little bits of insight and inspiration that we pick up through the show, I hope listeners feel the same thing. I hope you have your own, listener, your own tidbits that you've picked up to help you walk out your path beyond your crucible. But that thing from Stacey about a crucible experience is, think of it as a trampoline. The lower down you go, the higher up you can be launched was a true difference maker for me in terms of how I orient myself toward crucibles. And then Warwick, your mention of the audio book.

Warwick F:

Yeah...

Gary S:

Oh, yeah, please.

Warwick F:

... just before we leave podcasts and Stacey Copas, the Resilience series, I think, we can tie this back to what we're talking about. Because every guest in Resilience series, indeed, every guest I think we've ever had, one of the keys is being a positive attitude that may have gone through a season like Stacey Copas did of substance abuse, of being just angry and bitter. And because it was her fault from her perspective, she was really tough on herself. "Why did I dive in that pool? Why didn't I listen to my parents at age 12?"

Warwick F:

But you're young. Young people do silly things. It's part of growing up. Obviously, there were pretty bad consequences here, but every guest we've had from Jason Hardrath to Stacey Copas, everybody we had on the Resilience series, they've had this positive attitude. They've not let grief or anger about what happened to them or the mistakes they've made overwhelm them. Yes, they've had a season to have to deal with that. And you go through pain, there will always be scars, but they had a positive attitude.

Warwick F:

They count their blessings. They're grateful. They find a way to see and find gratitude in the most unlikely places. And that positive attitude is probably the key to their bouncing back, it's key to their resilience and it's key to their ability to lead a life of significance. So, if you go underneath the hood of everyone of every guest we had in the Resilience series, their mindset, their positive mindset was absolutely key to fueling and strengthening their resilience muscle. It's just staggering to me.

Gary S:

And hopefully, listener, as I said, what Warwick just described is what you have experienced listening to those guests along with us. We've talked about some of the takeaways that we've pulled from the shows from the guests that we've talked to, but we know that, we hope, we pray that you have had those same experiences. One of the things that you don't know is after every episode that we record, Warwick and I talk on the phone, after we turn off play, hit stop and we talk about, "What did you think about that? What stood out for you?"

Gary S:

And it's always amazing, because there is always a learning. Never once in more than 90 shows have we had a phone call after we recorded an episode and gone, "Okay. Well, it was all right. See you tomorrow." We unpack the learnings that we have had and we've studied the guests beforehand. So those conversations, again, we hope continue to use the word of the day for this episode. We hope those conversations continue to bless you.

Warwick F:

Amen.

Gary S:

I want to say this before we get into the next subject because you teased it a little bit, your speeches. And I want to set the tone or the stage for you as you talk about the speeches that you've been giving across the country about your book. And I want to say this to the listener. You've now, if you've been with us for any period of time, a few episodes, you've come to a place where you kind of have an impression of Warwick.

Gary S:

Warwick is a contemplative man. He is a reflective advisor type. He likes to ask questions. He listens before he asks questions. Now, because Warwick is the host of a podcast, which is a form of entertainment, it's also a little form of journalism, you might wonder like you do with some people in entertainment realm, "Is that really who Warwick Fairfax is?" I'm here to tell you what you see is what you get with Warwick. So, when he says to you what he's going to tell you about speaking, have that mindset there.

Gary S:

Warwick when he tells you as he's about to tell you, "I didn't start out as the greatest speaker and it was a little nerve wracking for me," he is telling you the absolute, unvarnished, transparent, vulnerable truth. This is something that he had to work at and when he calls it now a blessing, when he now talks about how he feels as a speaker versus how he felt as a speaker when he started, that is a true movement along the line of a life of significance. So, talk about the blessing of the speaking tour that you've been on and will continue on after the first of the year.

Warwick F:

So, it's interesting, almost a lifelong journey. I remember, at an early age, teenage growing up in Australia, in my mind's eye, I saw myself taking a leading role in Fairfax Media. Giving speeches to employees, encouraging them, making them feel honored, treasured, respected. I just saw myself, just helping them feel like they matter. It was just this daydream as you do when you're a teenager. And so, obviously, whether that whole thing was my vision or ancestors vision is another question.

Warwick F:

But I think over the years, if you ask me about speaking, I'd say, I'm like the world's worst speaker. It is not my gifting. I'm not an outgoing, extroverted person. I'm probably more introverted, shy. I don't like being in the limelight. I can't run around with no notes and just speak off the cuff in some compelling a way. I mean, it's just not me. So, I'm thinking me speak? I mean, that's going to be a heavy lift. It's just not a natural thing for me to be on a stage in front of a whole stack of people.

Gary S:

Now, let's stop here for a second because I knew the pivot was coming. I want to unpack something. I'm going to pull the sweater string now that you'd like to pull on guests.

Warwick F:

Please, you go ahead.

Gary S:

Because that's the first time you've ever told that story about how you thought about as the proprietor, the head of Fairfax Media speaking and inspiring the troops as it were. And I've never heard you tell that story. And you tell that story as if you really wanted that to be true and that there might have been a tinge of disappointment that it wasn't. That's the first time I've heard you articulate something about the failure of the takeover that was sort of a ding to your desire of what you wanted to do. It may not have been your vision, but that aspects of speaking and inspiring people you wanted to do. Did it hurt? Did you think about that through the years that that was something you lost when you lost it?

Warwick F:

Well, it was a lost opportunity, because I was so scared and I just felt like completely out of my element. We had so much debt, as most listeners would know, after the $2.25 million takeover. I spent most of my time in refinancing. I was in my late 20s. I just, I was shy, so typically what you do is you manage by walking around.

Warwick F:

I never walked the floors of John Fairfax Limited. Talking to journalists, staff members, "How you doing?" I mean, I have the capacity to ask questions and be empathetic, but at that time, I was too scared, deer in the headlights, to do that. So yes, lost opportunity to make people feel encouraged and cared. And I was just so out of my element that it was just almost impossible for me at that time.

Gary S:

So, it must make it much sweeter now that you are on the road and you are speaking to audiences about your book and a book that you wrote. It's important to note, I don't think we mentioned it here yet, in a lessons-learned format. It's not just the Warwick Fairfax story. It's in lessons learned how you overcome a crucible and lead a life of significance. That's got to be even more richly rewarding for you now, having not had that opportunity that you thought about before. So, talk about what's been happening on the road. I know the stories, but the listeners don't know them yet.

Warwick F:

So, we had a number of opportunities this fall. A couple of different universities - one faith-based, one more general, some business groups. And what's been amazing is the reception from both business people and students. I mean, it's amazing to me that we would ship books and sometimes, it'd be like, "Well, don't be disappointed if all of them don't go because students are busy." All of them went.

Warwick F:

And we have a moment in the general speech in which we hand out cards and pens, and we ask the audience, "So, talk about a vision that you're off the charts passionate about. Talk about what your life significance is going to be. What one next step will you do this week?" Well, the students heads were down and it felt like two or three minutes were going by. It's like they were writing like an epistle, like a tome. I mean, what's going on here? I was-

Gary S:

Yeah. You had to cut them off...

Warwick F:

No.

Gary S:

... to continue.

Warwick F:

And then we had a time where you kind of leave the question part of it. And the questions they asked, I mean, they got what I was going through. They would say, they might even say, "Do you view now your life is a blessing that, maybe it worked out for the best?" One person even said or asked, "When you go back to Australia is it painful?" Well, yes, it is. Not as painful as it used to be. You've got to be listening very closely to get the fact that it's painful. That was an incredibly good question.

Warwick F:

And then at the end, one venue we were at, all of the books went, and I don't know, stacks of people signed up to get a book. And there was a line, seemingly a mile long, the students in one location at the end of the day wanting me to sign the book. It blew my mind. I mean, it was, just so the reaction by all folks, business folks, but certainly students, it's like, it felt like this book mattered to them.

Warwick F:

My story, the lessons learned, about leading a life significance. As we say often, you're not defined by your worst day, how you can get over that worst day and just live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. I mean, it was such a blessing to see that my book was helping people. And the questions they were asking. They were engaged. It felt like students that when you would ask them, what one next up.

Warwick F:

So many of them said, "I'm going to talk to my mom or dad this week. I'm going to tell them what I'm thinking of." I mean, that when a student says that, they don't talk to mom and dad about everything. They talk to mom or dad when it really matters, about something you really care about. So, it was such a blessing. So, and I can honestly say, I'm not the world's worst speaker. I think I can say I'm competent, maybe even good. And for me to admit that I'm good at speaking, it's a miracle. It makes no sense, given that this is not my area of strength.

Warwick F:

It just goes to show you that anything is possible. If you're passionate enough about what you're doing and you care enough about helping people, anything is possible. I mean, it's a miracle that I can get to competent, if not good at speaking. It makes no sense. It's a miracle. I'm absolutely grateful and I absolutely feel blessed. It just, it blows my mind.

Gary S:

Two points, actually, three. First point, not necessarily a miracle. You worked hard at it. So, second point, you mentioned earlier in this episode, Jason Hardrath and your appreciation for Jason through his crucible in his athletic career, that he seemed to have no fear. That he just was like, "Okay, I'm just going to, I'll figure it out." And he just pushed ahead and he was not immobilized by fear.

Gary S:

I've watched you as you've embarked on this journey to craft a speech, prepare to deliver a speech, deliver it, you've done the same thing. You've not been afraid. You've not been slowed or stopped by fear as you've moved forward to do that. And there's a pivotal moment that I want to bring the listener's attention. You were practicing the speech, it was me and Keri Childers, who you mentioned earlier, your speaking agent and a friend of ours. And you were performing the speech. You were giving the speech to me and Keri as your as your stand in audience.

Gary S:

And every other time as you're telling the story of the takeover bid, every other time you'd ever talked about it on this show, in other people's podcasts, in interviews, in conversation, behind the scenes, you always refer to yourself as a failed media mogul. In context of, most often in the context of when you were asked to give a speech at church about the life of David, you told your story in the context of a sermon series on the life of David. And you said it moved people and your line was, "I don't know how it moved people. There weren't a lot of other failed media moguls in the audience."

Gary S:

As you were delivering the speech to me and Keri, out of your mouth, and I listened for it more than once to make sure it wasn't just a change that happened because you changed your tune once. You said, you stopped saying failed media mogul and you said, "I don't know how it moved so many people because I looked out in the congregation and there weren't any other former media moguls." And I listened and you said it once and twice and three times and you've continued to do that.

Gary S:

And to me, that was an enormous sign that not only were you not afraid, but you had grown in confidence in delivering that speech, and more than just delivering the speech, in talking about that time in your life and how you've moved on beyond it, how you're living a life of significance. You were walking around in that, not feeling cocky, feeling confident and comfortable in your skin. And that's why you stopped, in my view, that's why you stopped defining yourself as a failed media mogul.

Gary S:

But as a former media mogul, because the truth of the matter is, you were in charge of John Fairfax Limited for three years. It did go into bankruptcy, eventually, but you were still a media mogul for three years. That to me was a pivotal moment in how comfortable you became in sharing that story, for again, a lessons learned format. Is that a fair observation?

Warwick F:

Absolutely. Well said. I mean, it's a sign of inner healing, of coming to terms with things and shifting my inner mindset from failed to former. That was a very, it's a very astute point. And I think as I look back at speaking, it's funny, Jason Hardrath and I couldn't be more different. I mean, obviously he has-

Gary S:

That's true.

Warwick F:

He has ADHD. He's fearless. I'm a cautious planner. Think, think, think, step. Think, think, think again, but yet, and I sometimes overdo my parody almost of myself. Because coupled with fear and caution, I have, in fact, I once went to somebody who assessed me years ago, and they said I had like almost off the charts perseverance. I mean, extremely high and that is true. I have very high perseverance. I'm a person of, obviously, deep faith, at least I like to think and deep conviction.

Warwick F:

So, once I decide this is important. It's not about me, it's helping others. And I'm convinced that I need to do something; 99% of the time, it will get done, because my conviction and my perseverance overcomes my innate caution. And my innate inertia and I can be detail orientated when I want to be. So once I decide to do something, I hate things not getting done. It's a part of my DNA. So, once I decide to do something, it and each step will tend to happen.

Warwick F:

And so there's, we often had different parts of ourselves, almost at war within our souls or. So, that's part of what happened is trust the process, trust the team. And because it was so important for me to get my message out and to help people, to help business folks and students, that inner conviction of "This is important. I need to find a way to do this." And I also felt like, "Look, even if I deliver it poorly," and this is, some of this, the reason I'm saying this is I think it can help the listener.

Warwick F:

Even if I give my speech badly or poorly, the innate story of losing $2.25 billion, of bouncing back to lead a life of significance, of focusing on helping others. That innate story is powerful. I know it's powerful, just objectively speaking, so even a bad story delivered with authenticity, passion, honesty, and hopefully, a dose of humility even badly delivered can work. So that gave me the confidence of saying, "This is a good message. It can work. Even if I mess it up with horrendous delivery, it can still work."

Warwick F:

So, that gave me just a sense of inner confidence and saying, "Okay, what's the worst that can happen?" It still got a pretty decent chance of working because of the power of the story and I'm a passionate person in my own understated way. So, that's some of the thinking that was behind the hood. It's like, "I have perseverance." But I felt like this is a good message. And I've got, I've had great help and so, "Let's go for it." So that, some of that inner psychological working within you as you seek to accomplish your dreams, this is important work.

Warwick F:

And the most important thing is if you believe in your message and you believe in what you're doing can help people that will get you through a lot of fear and a lot of caution. You'll be willing to do things you never thought possible. And you will do better than you ever thought possible because people want to listen to people with convictions, who have a message that they feel that can help them. So, that's part of what got me through my innate caution is my conviction and perseverance and the belief that this message matters. I want to help people get through their worst day.

Gary S:

That sounded a lot like the Captain turning on the "Fasten seatbelt" sign indicating that it's about time to put the plane on the ground. But I know you're not done yet, Warwick, in talking about not just the blessings that have happened in 2021, but as you said at the outset, this all was birthed, this conversation, this idea for this conversation was birthed out of a meeting we had as a team talking about what we can pursue in 2022.

Gary S:

So, what do you want to share about what your hopes are for the next year? What you're thinking of for the next year? What listeners can expect? Where are things headed for Crucible Leadership?

Warwick F:

Yeah, I mean, again, I can't help but I'm reflective. But as I look back, I think if I had to sum up everything we've said, I feel blessed from the book, to the printed book, the audio book, the podcast, the speaking, I think there's been another level of healing. Both in listening to folks like Stacey Copas and thinking, "Gosh, it is a blessing, it's a gift." And when you see young folks, in particular, it moving them, that matters to me. It would matter to anybody that's human. There's a level of healing in that.

Warwick F:

And then not only is there healing, as I mentioned, there's learning. Learning from the people we've been on from Stacey Copas to Jason Hardrath, so that's kind of super excited. So, I think as we look to the next year, we're going to continue to grow the podcast and seek to grow and have more series on there, like Resilience. We'll see what we have to come. I'll be speaking in different groups from business groups to students, that's our hope and plan. And maybe, there's all sorts of different things you can do from webinars to online courses, so stack of things we're discussing right now. Different ways to get our message out and the material and ways, both in the breadth of the coverage of the message. There's also a depth of ability to interact with it.

Warwick F:

And I think as I sum up because I want listeners both to understand our journey and what we're looking to do. But I also want listeners to think, "Well, what does this mean to me? How can I use this in my own life?" And I think it's, be grateful. Take stock of your blessings. Count your blessings. Don't forget them, whether it's family or career, take stock of that. And as Stacey Copas says there can be a gift and a blessing in your pain. It's hard to fathom in your worst moment, but think about it, reflect about it.

Warwick F:

Is there a way that I can use this to help people? And when you're using your pain to help people, there can be some level of healing, not necessarily physically, but at least emotionally and spiritually, so. And the other thing about the wonders of being grateful and thankful and counting your blessings, that is like rocket fuel to help you accomplish your vision to lead a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.

Warwick F:

When you're thankful, your ability to accomplish that vision in ways that are beyond your imagination is possible. So, it's not only a good thing from an ethical or moral point of view, it's a practical thing. It will help you accomplish your vision bigger, better, and quicker than you ever thought possible. So, count your blessings. Be grateful, be thankful. You will both feel better and you will accomplish much more than you ever thought imaginable.

Gary S:

I'm going to grab my carry on bag and head off the plane. You just landed it. That was fabulous. I'm going to end this episode, listener, by asking you a couple of questions. Because we've been talking about what we've accomplished in 2021 at Crucible Leadership and what we're looking to do in 2022. So, a couple of questions for you and we want your feedback. What would you like to see? Is there anything you'd like to see content wise from Crucible Leadership? If so, email us at info@crucibleleadership.com. That's info@crucibleleadership.com and tell us what kinds of content would you find helpful as you navigate your own journey beyond your crucible to a life of significance.

Gary S:

And then if you'd like to hear the ex-media mogul, not the failed media mogul or the former, not failed, media mogul if you'd like to hear him speak, if you'd like to have Warwick come to your group or to your business, to your classroom, whatever it is. If you'd like to hear Warwick speak, you can also email to info@crucibleleadership.com. And we will get back to you and discuss how we can make that happen.

Gary S:

Speaking of making things happen, we are thankful that we made it happen that you joined us today. That you made it happen that you joined us today on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. And until the next time we're together, please remember we talked about it here, crucible experience as we know are difficult. They can knock the wind out of your sails. They can make you feel like your life is forever changed. And even if it is, though, here's the great truth. They're not the end of your story.

Gary S:

It was not the end of Warwick's story. He talked. We spent this entire episode talking about things that weren't the end of his story. Things that happen after his crucible. Things that happened because he learned the lessons of his crucible. And that's the great news about moving beyond your crucible is if you learned the lessons of it, it's not the end of your story. In fact, it can be the beginning of a new story for you. And it can be the best story that you live because what the story reads at the end when it says "The End" when you turn the last page, that ending is a life of significance.

Think of “hinge moments,” the subject of Taylor University President Michael Lindsay’s recent book, as cousins to crucible experiences. Lindsay has discovered in interviews with some of today’s greatest leaders that how we react to those moments in life when doors either open or close – hence the hinge metaphor – determines how successful we’ll be in charting our course to a life of significance. The key, he says, is keeping our metaphorical hinges in good working order.

To learn more about Michael Lindsay, visit www.taylor.edu

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Michael L:

There are seasons of transition, like stages that you go through, kind of like stages of grief. There are low points, but then there are also become points of real redemption. I find that people who are most successful are ones who are able to sort of make sense of the tragedy or of the crucible that they went through, in large part because it's about shaping your character. You really can't control how other people react. You can't control, in many ways, the outcomes that ... Those will be largely the aggregated results of lots of different people's actions and behaviors, but you can control, you can shape your own character and the kind of person you become as result of the crucible you've gone through.

Gary S:

Focusing on what you can control and extracting from your setbacks and failures, the lessons, the truths that will help shape your character for the better as you navigate your road beyond trials and tragedies. Sound familiar? It should, if you're even an occasional listener. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. This week, Warwick and I talk with Michael Lindsay, President of Taylor University about what he calls hinge moments, cousins, if you will, to crucible experiences.

Gary S:

What Dr. Lindsay has discovered in interviews with some of today's greatest leaders is that how we react to those moments in life when doors either open or close, hence the hinge metaphor, determines how successful we'll be in charting our course to a life of significance. The key, you'll discover, is keeping your metaphorical hinges in good working order. How do we do that? Listen in.

Warwick F:

Well, Michael, thank you so much for being here. Really excited to have you. One of the reasons I'm so excited is obviously Michael is a expert in leadership, which is certainly our passion here, but he's also the President of Taylor. I've been blessed to have three kids graduate from Taylor, the youngest one, or the latest one last year in 2020. I've been to Taylor, actually a fair bit in the last few weeks. Michael instigated the 175th commission at Taylor and anniversary of the founding of Taylor with collection of alumni, parents of alumni, and other folks just to provide input about the next chapter in Taylor's history.

Warwick F:

I was very privileged to be at the induction ceremony with Michael as president. Gosh, this past Monday, I had the great privilege of speaking at Chapel at Taylor and then to a business class later on. Yeah, I love Taylor. It's a very Christ-centered missional place with a very strong culture. Michael, thank you so much for being here and just looking forward to our discussion and yeah, thank you for being the president of Taylor. I think everybody's just super excited and we're really excited to see what God will have for Taylor in these next years.

Michael L:

Well, we were delighted to have you at Chapel. You were wildly popular, as was your book, which were out like hot cakes after Chapel immediately. Clearly, it really struck a chord with our community and excited to see your book get greater interest and opportunity. I do think there's some resonance with some of the work that I had done on hinge moments. So, thanks for having me on.

Warwick F:

Just before we kind of get started, I was fascinated by hinge moments because there's overlap with crucible experiences, but yet, I don't know, I was thinking about this. Maybe all crucible experiences have the potential to be hinge moments, but not all hinge moments are crucible experiences. Just, for the listener that might be used to the crucible experience world, just explain the difference between the two and the basic philosophy of hinge moments as we get started.

Michael L:

Well, the idea here is that all of us experience moments of significant change, inflection points in our life. There's probably, I don't know, 12 to 24 of them that happen over the course of a life. The moment you meet your spouse, the moment you get your dream job, the moment your family has the first significant tragedy, all of these become significant inflection points in the larger trajectory of our life. In God's providence, we are prepared for and respond to those changes over months or seasons of transition.

Michael L:

Hinge moments is really talking about the process whereby we navigate change and maximize transition for both our greater good and the wider good in the communities where we find ourselves. I think you're right. Every crucible moment is a hinge moment, but not every hinge moment's crucible. So, not every change that we experience occurs in the furnace of challenge or intensity. Sometimes it's just great joy and delight, but average American has 73 million minutes that we'll experience in life. And yet, probably there's two dozen of them that have an outsized impact on the trajectory of the rest of our life.

Warwick F:

Yeah. Just reading your book and story, it's amazing how, and you talk in your former book, View From the Top, about platinum leaders, some of the best leaders for-profit and not-for-profit, how the best leaders navigate the hinge moments exceptionally well, maybe that's part of one of the hallmarks of a great leader, which is fascinating. Yeah, I mean, I want to drill down on hinge moments, but that's your perception that the ability of the platinum leaders to tackle hinge moments is sort of like off the charts, it would seem.

Michael L:

That's right. I studied 550 senior leaders. Did interview with Presidents Bush and Carter, cabinet secretaries like Condoleezza Rice, or Colin Powell, who recently passed away, CEOs of the largest companies and largest nonprofits, presidents of Harvard, Stanford, and Princeton. Out of those 550 interviews, I concluded all of them experienced hinge moments and a disproportionate number of them handled their hinge moments very well, which allowed them to recover from challenges, mistakes, failures, or stumbles, but also to maximize opportunities when they came along their path.

Warwick F:

I guess, let's just go back for a second. I love hearing the origin story. I mean, you have a passion for leadership ever since you studied sociology at Rice. Where did your passion for leadership and understanding what makes leaders great? Why did you decide to pursue that? Because obviously you're an exceptionally bright person and could have pursued a number of different disciplines, but why leadership?

Michael L:

I find almost all of our academic pursuits are biographical a bit in nature. My dad was president for PG of America and the golf industry when I was growing up. My mom was head of an independent school in my hometown of Jackson, Mississippi. So, both of them were leaders in their own, right? I think sitting at their dining table, hearing the conversations they would have in person or on the telephone, sort of piqued to me an interest of both the challenges and opportunities of what it is to lead an institution. As a sociologist, I really believe in the importance of organizations and institutions and the vitality of having great leaders in those positions of responsibility.

Michael L:

When it came time for me to figure out what I was going to make the focus of my scholarly research, I think part of it was I drew upon my own journey of watching my parents and hearing their stories and having a desire to be able to shed some light that could be able to be of use to my students and to the institutions where I serve.

Warwick F:

That's so good. I mean, I know for me, I always struggle about the whole notion of being a leader because as listers would know, after the whole 2.25 billion family takeover that failed at the 150 family media company, probably in the '90s, which were pretty difficult years for me. I would feel like I couldn't lead my way out of a paperback. Me lead? I mean, come on. But I'm probably more of a reflective advisor than an upfront leader. But yet, I too, from a different standpoint, have a passion for leadership because certainly, in my own family media company, which at one point had I don't know, 4,000 plus employees, 700 plus million in revenue, the impact in leadership in people's lives is enormous. We spend so much time at work. It can make their life a joy or it can be oppressive.

Warwick F:

Good leadership makes such a difference, and from a kingdom perspective, to have godly leaders that lead well that achieve their objectives, but care for people along the way is so important. It seems like in this day and age, it seems, it's not that often that we have, as Jim Collins in his book, Good to Great, he talks about humble, but driven leaders. You talk about platinum leaders. It just seems rare unfortunately. There's too much of the egotistical, it's all about my agenda, and if I have to tread on people as I get to the top, oh well. Does that make sense? It's just, leadership is important and it's not easy to find good leaders, at least in the public eye anyway.

Michael L:

Well, I actually think that there's great opportunity. I mean, we are in a societal wide hinge moment coming out of the pandemic in the recovery mode. As a result, I think there's a real opportunity for folks who have always wanted to have a chance to sort of maybe get their voice heard or to provide greater leadership. There's a real moment of opportunity right now. We're seeing massive labor shortages in every industry, in every sector of our society. That's also creating opportunities for greater management, more opportunities for us to lead well. I also think that, while it's true that every institution has to be led by someone, you can be a leader without being in a position of institutional responsibility.

Michael L:

There's tons of leaders who have moral authority because of their circle of influence. Fundamentally, leadership is about having a group of followers. It's about a relational enterprise. Whether you're leading a little league soccer team or leading a fortune 500 company, I think there's opportunity for us to lead very effectively. And it's my hope that people of faith will provide greater leadership in our society because I think there's a real hunger for moral leadership in the wider world.

Warwick F:

Yeah. I mean, I think that's so good. We do talk about leading at all levels, whether it's the boardroom, the living room, whether it's leading your community to maybe take back a park for kids in your neighborhood. It's so well said. I want to drill down a bit into your book, Hinge Moments. As I was reflecting on, and I want to ... There's some key hinge moments that you talk about, but listeners will be familiar with this, but as I look back, I think of a couple of key hinge moments that I went through that I didn't really think about. They weren't crucible moments, but they were hinge moments. Just for listeners, they've heard this, but not in this context, so just to maybe help make the connection between who we are and what we do here and my life and hinge moments.

Warwick F:

There was a couple for me. I know in 2003, as listeners would know, I was working at an aviation services company in Maryland doing business financial analysis and I'm pretty analytical. I was doing well, getting good performance reviews. But after about six years, in 2003, I felt like, and like Michael, I'm a person of faith, I felt like God was saying, "You're playing small. You're not using all the gifts that I've given you for my glory." It wasn't that it was beneath me because humility is one of my highest values, but I felt like I was not using all that I was for the Lord.

Warwick F:

So, I went to a woman that did mid career assessments. She says, "You have a good profile to be an executive coach," so I learned about that, got certified as an International Coach Federation Executive Coach. Then from there, I got on a couple nonprofit boards and my journey continued. That was a hinge moment in the sense that I felt like this nudge from the Lord, I was doing well, so to speak. But I was discontent because I felt like I wasn't using all that I was for the Lord. As I read about your definition, I was like, that is a hinge moment. Then another one is, again, I mentioned in Chapel at Taylor, and listeners would be familiar with, in 2008.

Warwick F:

My pastor asked me to give a 10 minute message on somehow comparing to David who was being pursued by Saul. I said, "Well, I'm not a righteous person, falsely persecuted. I brought a lot of it on myself. Anyway, public speaking is not something certainly back then I did a lot of. It's certainly not my happy place by all means. But somehow what I said resonated with folks. I was like, huh. Then I did some intense praying and scripture reading. I felt like the Lord saying, I want you to write a book, but not a tell-all, but write a book about your story in a thematic lessons learned leadership format.

Warwick F:

Both of those were hinge moments, 2003, 2008, when again, like Michael being, Christ is the center of my life, I heard that still small voice that nudge and I knew what his will was and I moved ahead. If I hadn't made those decisions, my life would be radically different. Those were key hinge moments, for me anyway. Does that kind of make sense from your framework?

Michael L:

For sure. I think that all of those are moments that you can point back to specific. Each of us in our own journey have different things. So, what might be hinge moment for you might not be for someone else, but I think when we take stock, we can see that there are clear defining moments that change the trajectory of our life.

Gary S:

One of the things I want to mention about those hinge moments that you described Warwick is that again, going back to the idea that not all hinge moments are crucible moments, but all crucible moments can be hinge moments, what happened, those two hinge moments that you described were key to you moving beyond your crucible, to quote the title of this podcast. You've talked about them in the context of the failed takeover. Those were two key moments that led you toward the life of significance that you're now leading.

Gary S:

I think that's the way to kind of mash up these two very important concepts of crucible moments and hinge moments. That's how they worked for you. Those hinge moments helped you as you move beyond your crucible and I think we can extrapolate that out to, right Michael? To anybody who goes through a crucible moment. Your hinge moment, if you identify it, that can be the thing that can help you move beyond your crucible.

Michael L:

I think that so much of what you have to do ... In the book, I talk about that there are seasons of transition, like stages that you go through, kind of like stages of grief. There are low points, but then there are also become points of real redemption. I find that people who are most successful are ones who are able to sort of make sense of the tragedy or of the crucible that they went through, in large part because it's about shaping your character. You really can't control how other people react. You really can't control, in many ways, the outcomes that ... Those will be largely the aggregated results of lots of different people's actions and behaviors, but you can control, you can shape your own character and the kind of person you become as a result of the crucible you've gone through.

Warwick F:

Yeah, that's so well said. Gary, thank you for making that connection, because you're right. As I've reflected on it, the connects between Crucible Leadership and Hinge Moments, you go through tragedy, and that's obviously an epic hinge moment. As we say, you can either hide under the covers, be angry and bitter at yourself and others, whether it's your fault, not your fault. There's a lot of room for anger and bitterness and just hide under the covers and wait for the next 30, 40, 50 years to pass and eventually it'll all end. Or you can say this was awful, I was an idiot or what happened to me was just not right. And you can make a decision to move on from that as pretty much, most of the 70 plus guests we've had on the podcast, their crucibles, they've all pretty much, without exception, used their pain in the service of others.

Warwick F:

They've found some level of healing by finding, out of the ashes of their crucible, a vision that will ... A life of significance focused on others and a higher purpose. But as I look at hinge moments, as you try to move out of the depth of your pit, those hinge moments help you achieve your life of significance quicker, better, more true to who you are and your values if you just listen to those key moments. If you're a person of faith, it's listen to the Lord. If you're, some other perspective, maybe it's your kind of inner soul. But hinge moments and managing them well are key to getting out to that pit quicker and fast and achieving your vision.

Warwick F:

I mean, it's critical to me. I want to go through each of the kind of seven chapters, but you have your own incredible hinge moments and you write about it in the book and you're obviously open about it. There's a couple, in particular you're studying at Rice or you're a Rice sociology professor. I'm not sure you're even yet 40, maybe close, and some recruiter comes to you and says, "Hey, there's a job open at Gordon."

Warwick F:

But you weren't like, "Great sign me up. Let's go." Talk about, that was a hinge moment and you handled that obviously well, but not everybody would've made the decision you did, or they might have said, "Oh, I'm young. I love where I am in Texas, in Boston." I don't know. Talk about that hinge moment, because that was certainly one of the early critical moments that changed the whole trajectory of your life.

Michael L:

I was a faculty member at Rice and I thought I'd be there my whole career. It's a great institution, lots of resources and things were going really well. A search consultant called and said that they were working on the presidential search at Gordon and wondered if I would be considering. I said, "I really appreciate it, but I have a whole pathway in front of me. I need to become a department chair and maybe a dean, and then a provost. Maybe I would do that down the road, but I think it's probably 10 to 15 years from now." And he said, "Well, would you just pray about it?" And I said, "Sure." I probably prayed a couple of times, but not very seriously about it. But a month later after that initial call, my 32-year-old cousin was killed in a car accident.

Michael L:

I was very close to him. He was like a little brother to me. The family asked me to deliver the eulogy at his funeral, which I did. After the funeral, we loaded up the kids and started driving back to Houston. It was a Sunday afternoon and I was driving along. The kids were taking a nap and it was quiet in the car. I began thinking about my cousin, his name was Trent, and he died about six weeks before Christmas. I wondered, what did he plan on getting his kids for Christmas that year? I knew that he was a planner and probably had some great ideas. I knew also that he was hoping for a big promotion at work and I wondered how close he was to getting that, how far along was that? Then I got to thinking about his life and wondering, what does he want to do 10 to 15 years from now?

Michael L:

The minute that question went across my mind, I instantly thought of that conversation I had a month earlier with a search consultant who had asked if I would be interested in pursuing the presidency, and I said maybe in 10 to 15 years. It just dawned on me in that moment, we are not promised tomorrow. We live our life as if we're in control, when in fact we're really not. That was a moment of great conviction for me because throughout my life I had said I wanted to be open to doing things, even if it wasn't always my idea. I wanted my faith to really drive who I was.

Michael L:

The next morning I called the search consultant and said, "I don't know if you're still looking, but if you are, I'd love to be able to throw my hat into the ring." Never thinking I would get it, just thinking it'd be a part of my own growth and development. But over the next three months, the process moved forward and in the end I was selected. I really think that my cousin's death, in some ways, was redeemed in a small measure by my own sense of calling. I mean, I still greatly miss him. It's a tragedy that he died so young.

Michael L:

At the same time, we have to use tragedies that happen in our life as a way of sort of signaling to us how we might grow and develop. I'm very grateful that, that became a hinge moment in my own life that put me on a trajectory of pursuing positions of institutional leadership.

Warwick F:

Then let's shift to the next, or one of the next big hinge moments. You've been at Gordon College for 10 years as we heard earlier, record fundraising, things are going great. You love the area. Listeners know I went to Harvard Business School and I had parents of my friends that had a place in Cohasset, which is on the south shore of Boston. Love the area. I could totally get why you would want to live there forever. It's a beautiful area. Winter is a bit cold, but it's a nice place. But yet, some folks came knocking on the ... Well, let me pause for a second.

Warwick F:

This is a classic hinge moment. You were doing well, but yet you were feeling some level of discontent, but yet everything was going so great, which seems like it's a classic hinge moment. Talk about, even before Taylor came knocking, talk about that hinge moment at Gordon College.

Michael L:

I was feeling a little restless. Arthur Brooks, who had been the very successful president of the American Enterprise Institute, came and spoke for an event we did. And in it, he talked about his decision to step down after 10 years on the job. I got these butterflies in my stomach and I went home that night and I said, "Why was I nervous for him? He's made his decision. It doesn't really affect me." My wife said, "Well, maybe you're realizing that your 10 years at Gordon will come to a close next year and you're wondering if name thing might be in your future." I said, oh, that's a crazy idea. I can't imagine that." Then a couple months later, I was working on the manuscript for hinge moments and I was rereading every single interview I'd done. I came upon this interview with Bruce Kennedy, the CEO of Alaska Airlines.

Michael L:

I had long forgotten, but in his interview he talked about the decision for him to step away from the CEO job after 10 years on the job. As soon as I saw those words on the page, my heart started beating fast and I got the butterflies back in my stomach. I realized, well, there is something about 10 years that maybe is standing out. Over the next six to eight months, I really, I prayed. I thought, I reflected a great deal. In the end, I concluded, many of the things that I'd set out to do, I've actually accomplished. One of them was a very significant reduction in the cost of a Gordon education.

Michael L:

It takes a long time to reduce expenses and to grow revenues, to get to a place where you can do something significant. Last fall, we were able to announce a 33% reduction in the sticker price and a reduction in the actual price for every single student. That was a big deal. I just realized that I thought, perhaps it was time for me to do something different. It was upsetting and nervous because I've never stepped away from a job without having another job.

Michael L:

But I really felt a confirmation that, that was the right move. I went to my board and they said, "Oh, you just need a break. Let's sign you up for another five years." I really appreciated that. But that actually wasn't really what I felt. So, I stepped away without really knowing what would happen. It was scary for several months. I mean, there were moments when I thought, will I ever get the job that I love again? Will I ever get a chance to do something that meaningful? But I'm also living proof that there are many roles, there are many paths that we can take.

Michael L:

I think if we're open to God's leadership and trying to be responsive when we feel those hinge moments are occurring in our life, that restlessness, that holy discontent can be a way in which the Lord prepares us to move on. By the time I had the opportunity to assume the Taylor presidency, I felt really confirmed in what I was doing. I'll just say, I'm very happy, very satisfied. I feel like it's a great fit for what I bring to the table, what the institution needs, and we are really thrilled to be in Indiana.

Warwick F:

That is just amazing. Obviously I know all of the Taylor community is super excited to have you. Taylor's obviously a great place, Christ-centered, top academic institution, but it has a history of having an extremely close knit culture. As you would know, better than I do, culture is ... It can take decades to create. It's not something you can just flash a wand, and hey, presto, we have a good culture. Obviously you got a great foundation.

Warwick F:

I want to shift to hinge moments and there's this amazing chart in here that's on every chapter. Basically, it starts, in terms of level of confidence, it starts at discernment, goes to anticipation, intersection, then goes up to landing integration, inspiration, realization. Basically intersection is where you're between the two spaces and you're feeling the most uncertain, the least confident, the most wobbly in the knees. It's a fascinating way to look at it. Let's dive into some of these things and just talk about how in that first stage you talk about it's the stage of discernment, approaching the door in your life. You've had a couple of those when you were at Rice and then at Gordon. What's kind of the key concept behind that first step of discernment.

Gary S:

Can I jump in before we do that?

Warwick F:

Please.

Gary S:

Just for the listeners' benefit, we've been talking a lot about hinge moments, and I think it would be really beneficial, Michael, if you defined what a hinge moment is before we talk about them in depth, in terms of how it plays out in your excellent paradigm. What is, how do you recognize a hinge moment, and why do you call it a hinge moment?

Michael L:

A hinge moment are those dozen or two minutes that happen in our life that have a disproportionate impact on the rest of our life because of key decisions or actions that took place in that moment. They, like the hinge of a door, open up doors of possibility or close other doors of possibility because of the impact of them. Oftentimes they have a directly personal effect on us, but they can include not just your family life, not just your love life, but your professional life as well as wider world events. For some of us, 9/11 was a hinge moment that forever changed your life. For others, it was just another minute that changed our world, but didn't directly impact us. Hinge moments oftentimes are disproportionately impactful on us as individuals and they begin to reshape who we are.

Michael L:

As Warwick says, there's seven stages of transition that we go through. And you start at a relatively high level of confidence, but then you begin to discern, either through that sense of restlessness what I described as butterflies in our stomach, sweaty palms, or maybe it's dreams we have at night or conversations that we have, or intuition that we feel, we begin to discern or anticipate that a change is on the way. Then we begin to sort of lose confidence because we begin to think, well, huh, I thought my life was going in one direction and maybe it's going in a different direction.

Michael L:

Actually, it continues to slide down until you get to sort of the low point of confidence, what I call the intersection phase, the liminal moment. Liminal is sort of a word that's taken from the Latin word, which means threshold, when you're literally between two rooms or two seasons or two chapters of your life. You're leaving one and you're starting another, but you're sort of in this betwixt and between phase. That's the hardest time. And it can last a matter of a few days to a matter of a few years when you're dealing with the death of a spouse or the loss of a child, and you are really sort of coming to grips with that.

Michael L:

But then, over time, we begin to sort of find our way into a new room, a new season, a new chapter. We become integrated into that community. We begin to feel like we have got a way of making sense of it. As we become integrated into landing in this new space, making new friends, developing our own sense of calling, and then eventually, we get this opportunity where we become a source of inspiration for other people. At some point in time, whereas you started at this level of confidence, you go through a low point, you actually rise up to a higher level of confidence on the other side when you realize all of this is about the development of your character and opportunities for you to sort of grow and develop.

Michael L:

You discover, maybe you're not going to be managing the family business that you thought you were going to do in Sydney, but instead you have a new sense of calling. In many ways, it's one that is even more meaningful because you've actually gone through some of the difficulties or challenges that make you a stronger, richer, better person. These hinge moments go through these seven phases of transition that in the end, on the other side, we're a better person because of it.

Warwick F:

Boy, that's so well summarized. Wow. I guess the discernment is sort of an interesting phase. You talk about being prepared, and we'll get to, in a later chapter, the virtues like humility, courage, and self control. That first step of you talk about silence and meditation, self examination. When a potential opportunity comes, there's that phase of both internal discernment as well as seeking counsel. These are really the best practices of, when an opportunity comes knocking, what's the best process of figuring out whether to say yes and then move into it, because there's bad ways to handle it.

Warwick F:

But this is sort of like, from my perspective, the best way. Talk about some of those, in those early stages, I love that phrase you say, "Respect your restlessness and seek counsel." Talk about why that's just so important in those early stages.

Michael L:

I think one of the things that's important is that we have to sort of go between two poles. One is immersion and another is isolation. I think that you have to do both of those things when you're really discerning things. Immersion means you're getting fully into the context. Maybe it's that you pay a visit to the place where you think you might be working or you spend a long weekend walking around the community where you think your new house might be, but you're fully immersed in that. But you also have to run what I called, get on the balcony. You have to be able to pull out in moments of isolation. That might be a quiet walk on the beach or thinking alone while you make a long run, something that gives you an opportunity to really contemplate and to get alone with yourself.

Michael L:

You have to do both of those kinds of things in the discernment, both immersion and isolation. The net result of that is that I think you begin to develop a sense of both calling and responsibility and you get greater clarity around what might be coming ahead.

Warwick F:

That's good. That really goes into the next phase of anticipation. I love the phrase that you mentioned of overcoming caution and the fact that most humans are risk averse. I mean, I certainly am. I like to think I'm a relatively fearful person, but fortunately from my mother, who is a very strong willed force of nature kind of person, I get some pretty high degree of perseverance and conviction. Once I feel like this is what the Lord wants me to do, my conviction and perseverance tends to overcome my natural caution, so that's a bit of a yin yang kind of thing that I have to go through. But most humans are risk averse, but overcoming over caution, I love that phrase.

Warwick F:

Back in the days at Rice University, you had to live that one out. You could say, I could become department head, dean, provost. I love Texas. I love where I am. Why give up the tried and true path to jump off in some other place I've never been to? Talk about why overcoming over caution is just so critical to life.

Michael L:

Well, there's a ton of neuroscience research that shows that, generally speaking, we will do everything we can to mitigate risk. While we might think of ourselves as brave and courageous, most of the time, we're not. And it requires us to sort of be goaded in one way or another to push ourselves to try something that is risky. My book is designed to try and encourage people. It's actually, generally speaking, better for you to take the risk. Certainly when you're thinking about new ventures, most of the time you're going to be much more successful in that new venture. So, don't be too cautious.

Michael L:

I mean, it's important to make assessments and to count the cost. At the same time, too often we do become paralyzed by that and we miss out on some amazing opportunities. Virtually every one of the platinum leaders that I interviewed had to get to a point where they were willing to push themselves to do that was very different. A great example, Condi Rice. Condoleezza Rice thinks she's going to be a world class concert pianist. She goes to the Van Cliburn competition as a 14 year old and realizes, "I am never going to play the piano as well as some of these other people who are younger, less experienced than I am. They're just more talented. They do this better."

Michael L:

So, she has a soul searching experience. She thought her whole life was going to be in a certain direction. She decides to enroll at the University of Denver as a 16-year-old, much earlier than most kids go off to college. While there, she doesn't major in music. She explores a variety of different fields. Takes a class on a Soviet studies, and through that develops a real passion and love for Russian literature, Russian culture. That in turn gets her interested in international relations. She graduates from the University of Denver. Decides to go straight to Notre Dame to pursue a PhD, which she does international relations.

Michael L:

Of course, she ends up having a whole career as a provost at Stanford, becomes a national security advisor and secretary of state. None of those things would've been pathways for her if she had stuck to her pathway of thinking that she was going to be a concert pianist. Maybe she would've been able to play piano at her local church, and maybe occasionally she'd have some concerts. She never would've had the platform that she ended up having in her life if she had been overly cautious. Sometimes we have to just be willing to take the risk.

Warwick F:

That's such a good example. It's funny. I think if somebody we had on our podcast, at least we recorded, just couple days ago, Jason Hardrath, and he's somebody, teaches PE at an elementary school in Washington State. He has ADHD. And the way he copes with that is he has to move. He cannot sit still. But because, as you would know, with challenges, there can become blessings, there can come gifts with challenges. He doesn't have the risk averse chip in his brain.

Warwick F:

He does things that are nuts, but then he achieves things that most of us humans couldn't achieve. Like he had an accident, which I won't get into all right now, that limited what he could do, but he decided to do a triathlon and he wanted to compete in these elite deals. Well, part of the triathlon is like a 2.6 mile swims, two point something anyway. Well, at the time he could barely swim the length of a 50 meter pool. But he signed up for this triathlon six months later saying, "I'll figure it out. I'll get there." And he did.

Warwick F:

Now, most of us wouldn't even dream of signing up for triathlon if we couldn't barely swim the length of a 50 meter pool. Maybe if we felt okay, I've satisfied myself I can can swim a mile, now I'll commit to it. But 99% of humans would never do that. I'm not suggesting everybody lives the way he does because he has a certain challenge with a gifting, but I look at that and I'm awe inspired. I mean, his lack of risk averse is ... There's a challenge with that because his lack of ability at time to control impulses, but that's super human level of courage, but that's because of the gifting side of the challenge.

Warwick F:

When I heard that I said, golly, that's just ... Talk about lack of risk averse. I mean, no wonder he achieves some of the things he does. I mean, it's not that hard to break records if you don't have that risk averse chip in your brain.

Michael L:

That's right. Absolutely.

Warwick F:

Anyway, but obviously that's a whole nother story. We move then to intersection. You've talked a bit about that. That's the hardest place between those two spaces. One of the things in here that you talk about is the importance of having a mentor. You relate it to stories and films, whether it's Bilbo having Gandalf, and as any Star Wars fan would know Luke having Obi-Wan. Clearly, I mean you've had mentors your whole life. You're a wise man. Talk about how, especially when you are in the land in-between, almost sounds a little bit like Moses between Egypt and the promised land. Of course, he was there for 40 years, which you don't typically want to be in the land in between for 40 years, heaven forbid, but talk about why having a mentor is so critical when you're between those two stools.

Michael L:

I think you have to have mentors and sponsors, people who are willing to sort of step into your life and create opportunities, but it's helpful for people to speak into our life who can remind us of our giftings and our interests and our capabilities, but also one who opens up doors of possibilities. That's why I love working with college students is because it's great to get a chance to help them make some good connections.

Warwick F:

Yeah. Then we kind of move into landing, and probably the key phrase there is, so the welcome mat and you are the guest is the importance of listening and you've got like impression, plus impression, plus impression equals reputation. That makes so much sense. It's so easy to get into a new job saying, "Okay, I don't need to listen. I'm a successful ..." You could have walked into Taylor and saying, "I'm a successful leader of a Christian college. I know what I'm doing. Taylor just needs to listen to me and let's go." But you didn't. You had a hundred 175th commission, you listened to alumni, parents of alumni, other folks.

Warwick F:

You didn't walk in day one in Taylor saying, "Okay, here's a plan. Let's go. Hey, what's your name anyway? Because I really don't know who you folks are." But you're obviously too intelligent for that. Yeah, talk about why just that sense of those early impressions of listening and just being on your best behavior, as you put, it sounds obvious, but there's a lot of leaders that get into a new job, they do the exact opposite of what you suggest.

Michael L:

Well, I think experience is the best teacher to us. I've made tons of mistakes along the way. The benefit of a second presidency is it's a chance to reset and to learn from things, and hopefully do things a little bit better. I certainly have benefit so much for being part of this community and to learn from the wisdom of other folks. I also think you get to a certain point where you don't have to prove yourself. You're pretty comfortable in your own skin. I think that becomes a sign of leadership maturity. Certainly, I think your crucible moments that you experienced had a way of, through the refining fire, helping you to become a place where you don't have to prove yourself. But instead, you become an opportunity to learn, grow, and hopefully invest in other people.

Warwick F:

Well said, well said, and then we move into integration where being trustworthy and trusting your team is obviously is so huge. I mean, that kind of makes abundant sense. Then somewhere to dwell as we, kind of in our remaining minutes, chapter six, the hinge inspiration, this is where you really unpack the concept of the hinge. You mentioned that, people might be familiar with the phrase, cardinal virtues. You talk about how the word cardinal is from the Latin word, meaning hinge, and just the importance of having a very strong hinge. Really, let's sort of dig into that one a little bit about the importance of having, as you put it, a reliable, robust hinge when hinge moments come. Talk about why that's just so critical.

Michael L:

I think all of us have a set of values that we live our lives by. It orients our priorities, how we spend our time, how we spend our resources. Not everybody takes the time to enumerate what those values are, but I think each of us have a set of them that are really guiding us. The book tries to lay out, there are four cardinal virtues that have been around for a millennia and shape who we are, whether it's justice or self-control, or a real commitment to trying to pursue wisdom that might be true in our life, a variety of different values that help shape who we become.

Michael L:

I would just say that, to all of your listeners, it's important to use the hinge moment as a chance to say, okay, what are those key principles or values that really matter to my life? And then how do I live by them? Because when you get to the end of life, people are not going to give a eulogy based upon all of your bullet points of your resume. They're going to just talk about your character. What is your character and how did you live it out?

Warwick F:

Yeah, that's so important. I mean, we talk about in crucible leadership and we have a broad audience. I'm clear about my faith in Christ, but I say, leadership needs to be anchored in fundamental beliefs and values. It could be religion, a philosophy, a set of values, and then importantly, beliefs are important, but they need to be acted upon. From our framework, that's character, which is beliefs acted upon. Like in James, it talks about faith is good, but deeds is where it fleshes itself out and it's obviously for the believers. It's still saved by grace, but if you really believe in what you say you believe, it will shape your character.

Warwick F:

Otherwise, there's a question about whether you believe in the first place, at least from a Christ centered perspective. But that is so good, is just, even before those hinge moments come, just understanding what your values are. You talk about prudence and fortitude, temperance, justice. I love how you define justice, I guess from, is it Cornel West somewhere? What love looks like in public, justice. I haven't heard that. That's a brilliant definition. Then we go to the last one, inspiration.

Gary S:

Can I back up a second?

Warwick F:

Please, please.

Gary S:

And stay on hinge for a minute.

Warwick F:

Absolutely.

Gary S:

Because I think it's fascinating, Michael, that you use hinge as the metaphor because hinges are interesting. They're sort of hidden, right? It's the least important part. When we're go one through a door, we don't think about the hinge, but if it wasn't for the hinge, we wouldn't get through the door. Hinges also are metal usually, they're susceptible to rust, they're susceptible to the nails falling off. They need a little care. What does it look like, metaphorically, if our hinges rust in our lives? What is that like and how can we prevent it? Because I think that's critical to part of what you're saying, is to keep those hinges well-greased and well oiled.

Michael L:

I think, fundamentally, if you don't have those principles in your life, if you don't care for those values, nurture them, strengthen them, help them to become more central to who you are, then the hinges can't perform their function and so the door doesn't open or it doesn't close. The engineering marvel about a hinge is that it's the same device that is used to keep a slab of wood from staying ... It stays in place and yet it can also create a range of motion so that you can take something that is closed and open because of a hinge. You also can take something that is open and closed because of a hinge. And also, it can leave it in the current position until it needs to be adjusted. That's an engineering marvel that a little device like that can do all three of those things well.

Michael L:

But if the hinges are rusty and if they no longer function, you're going to find that either doors that need to be closed in our life, because there are certainly necessary endings that we all have to experience in life that won't occur, or doors of opportunity that need to be opened, they won't be there. Or the things that are supposed to stay open, suddenly become closed, or things that become closed, suddenly become open. It actually changes the trajectory of your life for all the wrong kind of reasons, which is why you have to really care for those hinges so that they can be sustaining over the long call.

Warwick F:

Yeah, and that's such a good point, and thanks for making that excellent point, Gary. I mean, having good, robust, rust-free, well-oiled hinges based on the fundamental values that you have in life, and we all have values. I mean, I talk about in the book, humility and integrity, probably my two highest values along with authenticity and vulnerability, probably integrity and humility are my number ones, it helps you make better decisions when those hinge moments come. You made, I think it's easy to look back in life.

Warwick F:

As you rightly say in the book, life is better understood looking backwards. Unfortunately, it's not easy to look forward, but that's why we have faith because the Lord understands the plan and we just have to say yes one step at a time when he gives us that next step. But as you look back on those two key hinge moments for you, whether it was Rice University or being at Gordon, you had a robust hinge, you knew your cardinal virtues. You had mentors you could talk to. You had all the process and systems in place to make good decisions, and you had the power of prayer. You had the right system set up to make, it's not foolproof because we're human, but to make good decisions.

Warwick F:

So, you made a decision that many wouldn't have. Many would've stayed at Rice, most maybe at that age, just objectively speaking. And many might have said, "Look let me shoo that holy discontent thing out of the way. It's Gordon. They have high confidence in me, the board of trustees. We're doing well. Record fundraising, lower tuition. I could just coast here for the next 10, 15, 20 years and life is good. Why would I want to leave a good thing? Who does that? Most wouldn't. They would stay there forever. You probably could have. But yet, you decided not to. And it was only because of how robust and rust-free your hinge was.

Warwick F:

Thank you for bringing this back to that Gary, because it's ... To make good decisions, you need good hinges. I feel like, why would you leave on the table what the Lord would have for you in life? If you're a believer, you'll still go to heaven all. If you're not a believer, you could still have a great life, but maybe there's an optimal path that you're missing out on. Why miss out on that optimal path of even greater service and joy and fulfillment? Why do that? By navigating your hinge moments well, you will be open to some of the most exciting, fulfilling experiences you could possibly have.

Warwick F:

Yeah, now's the time to oil the hinges, figure out your own cardinal virtues. I'm an executive coach at heart, so whatever that means to you, every person has the God-given right, from my perspective, to figure out their own path and their own virtues. Figure it out, have a good team, have a mentor and you'll be better set for when those next hinge moments come. So, excellent. Just as we kind of wrap up here, we've got the last one of realization. One of the things you talk about here is, which is very personal, you talk about responding to hard joys.

Warwick F:

You mentioned you've got three daughters, but your oldest, you found out when she was a few months old, that there was some genetic things going on. I mean, I've never really heard that phrase a hard joy. Why'd you put that in that last chapter in realization? What was the link there between? Because that's sort of fascinating that you talk about that there.

Michael L:

I think a lot of times we look at everybody else's life and just assume that everything is rosy, that the trajectory they've been on is like a line graph where everything is moving up and to the right in a real positive direction. When in fact, a lot of us encounter challenges and hardships along the way. Parenting a special needs daughter was not something my wife and I expected. We love Elizabeth and are grateful for all the good that has come in to our life. And there has been joy, but it has not been easy at all. Caring for Elizabeth is an all consuming part of our family's calling. So, it's been a hard joy in a number of ways. We have to just be honest and acknowledge that. And yet, there have been moments of real encouragement and inspiration and it's certainly changed who I am for the better.

Michael L:

From my own sort of character development, I would say, I'm a much better father, I'm a much better person, I'm a much better boss because I have had some of those hard joys along the way. My hunch is that each of us can probably point to things that have been ongoing sources of pain or difficulty that it's God's providence, have become real sources of great joy and inspiration as well.

Gary S:

That sound to you, our listeners, is the captain turning on the fast seatbelt sign indicating that it's about time to land the plane of this conversation, but we're not quite there yet. Before we get there for sure, Michael, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to let listeners know how they can both find out more about Taylor University and about you online. How can they learn more about your books and about your college that you're president of?

Michael L:

Well, you're very nice to say that Gary. I hope that folks would check us out at wwwd.taylor.edu. Taylor is an amazing institution, just ranked number one university in the Midwest and we're really proud of the good things that are happening here on campus. If you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter, or somebody who is of the high school age that's looking at universities, we hope that they'll consider Taylor. My web presence is also on taylor.edu/president, and you can learn all kinds of good things. I hope you'll consider buying a copy of Hinge Moments. It's a great book and one that we're hoping to share with a much wider audience. Thank you so much for having me on today.

Gary S:

Great. Warwick. You get the last question so bring the plane on the ground.

Warwick F:

I love one of the last things you talk about in your conclusion, is redemption through hinge moments. You talk about how God uses failure to help us grow and grow up, and just the value of failures or successes for that matter. And certainly in my case, just the pain of losing this 150-year-old 2 billion plus business, which was excruciating, and even when you recover from crucible experiences, there are always scars that are left. But that sense of redemption, certainly in 2008, when I gave that talk in church and somehow my story, it felt like could be used to help others. That was a hinge moment where I definitely felt redemption.

Warwick F:

Speaking at Taylor and just seeing the response. I'm very careful whenever those things happen as to physically or proverbially get on my knees and say, "All glory to God, All glory to God," because it's all him. But just talk in, it's our last question, I've just loved that phrase, redemption through hinge moments. That really rang true to me.

Michael L:

Well, it's certainly, I find that the best way that you sort of make sense and make meaning of these hinge moments is for us to take stock and say, okay, well, how has this shaped my character? How has this helped me to become a better person, a better family member, a better professional? I think that that does become the way in which redemption will occur. It can use the pains and difficulty, and while you're right, it does leave scars, those scars don't remain open wounds. Because of that, your skin becomes tougher, stronger, more supple, so that it can navigate additional challenges. I also find that, generally speaking, we rise to the level of the challenge, whatever it might be.

Michael L:

For those who are, in the current moment, being given great challenge, it's because you also have great character and great potential. My hope is that through the crucibles that we experience and the hinge moments that come along our way, God can use that to redeem us so that we can be even more effective in our respective callings.

Gary S:

I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject's been spoken. I also know when someone has just added something to his or her resume. Michael's resume is very, very, very impressive with his books and his education and his leadership of colleges. Who knew he could land a plane so well too? He landed that plane perfectly in our discussion. Listener, thank you so much for your time with us.

Gary S:

As you wait around for the next time, which comes in a week if you're listening to this episode when it comes on live, you have homework, and it makes perfect sense to have homework because we're talking to a college president. You have homework. The homework is this, make certain that your ... Take the time in the next week to make sure that your hinges are inoperable order. Oil them. Make sure that the nails are there, make sure that there's not any rust on them. Really dig into, find out, identify your hinges where they are and make sure that they're in working order.

Gary S:

Then, until the next time we're together, please remember that we do understand your crucible experiences are painful. They do change the trajectory of your life. All of us have experienced them. You have experienced them, but we know, through our own experience and through the experience of guests like Michael and other folks we've had on this show, that your crucible experience is not the end of your story. In fact, it can be the beginning of a new chapter in your story, which can be the best chapter in your story. Because when you learn the lessons of your crucibles, when you embrace them as hinge moments to walk to something new and better, they can be the best chapter of your story, because where they lead at the end of the day is to a life of significance.