Have you suffered setback and failure? Then you probably have struggled with anger and maybe bitterness as you think of those who contributed to your pain. In this episode, Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax discusses with cohost Gary Schneeberger the critical need to forgive those who have wronged us (or even ourselves) in order to move past our crucibles and toward a life of significance. Warwick lays out seven steps you can begin practicing today to cultivate what he calls the noble character to practice forgiveness. From understanding the difference between forgiving someone and condoning their actions, to channeling your pain in more productive ways than being consumed by bitterness, you will walk away from this discussion with practical action steps you can take beginning today to start walking in this truth expressed by Marianne Williamson: “The practice of forgiveness is our most important contribution to the healing of the world.”
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Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership. When you’re angry and bitter about what somebody has done to you, you might have been fired, abused, maybe it was divorce, it could be all sorts of things in which you feel like somebody is responsible for making your life miserable. You might even think that made your life a living hell, so to speak. How in the world can you forgive them? Bitterness and anger puts you in prison. It’s like drinking poison every day. You’re the one that it’s really killing, the other person often doesn’t care. And so, why is forgiveness important? Because you’re worth it. Because if you want to move on and have a productive life, a life of significance, a life of joy and fulfillment, you cannot do it, it is absolutely not possible, unless you forgive.
Gary S:
Those are strong words, challenging words, and true words. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. What you just heard Warwick say, is a critical reality as well as a key challenge to all of us who’ve endured setback and failure and trauma and trial. As we discuss in detail in this week’s episode, we simply will not be able to do what this show aims to help us do, move beyond our crucibles if we don’t forgive those who inflicted, or who we believe contributed to those crucibles. And that includes in many instances, ourselves. How do we do it? That’s the meat of today’s conversation. Warwick lays out seven steps you can begin practicing today to cultivate what he calls the noble character to practice forgiveness.
Gary S:
From understanding the difference between forgiving someone and condoning their actions, to channeling your pain in more productive ways than being consumed by bitterness, you will walk away from this discussion with practical action steps you can take beginning today to start walking in this truth expressed by Marianne Williamson, “The practice of forgiveness is our most important contribution to the healing of the world.” The reason that we do not have a guest today is, it’s one of those episodes where Warwick and I have a discussion around some key principles of Crucible Leadership. And today’s subject is forgiveness.
Gary S:
Now, if you’re virtually or actually scratching your head saying, “What does forgiveness have to do with crucibles?” One of the things that is sort of our organizing construct for what we’re talking about, is that crucibles can tend to lead to blame in some way. Warwick has said many times on this show, if you’ve listened many times, you’ve heard him say, “Crucibles, what happens sometimes it’s your fault, sometimes it’s not your fault.” That can lead you to think, regardless of whose fault it is, it may be somebody’s fault. In a large majority of crucibles, there is blame that crops up and that blame has to be dealt with. And that’s what we want to talk about here. And that forgiveness is one of the ways, is the chief way to kind of move blame out of the viewfinder and begin the process of bouncing back from your crucible. That’s sort of a 30,000 foot level Warwick, I know you have some more concrete thoughts as we get this discussion rolling.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Very good point, Gary. Really, why forgiveness has come up a lot, is we’re all about here at Crucible Leadership, how to get beyond setbacks and failures to live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Well, often when bad things happen, whether it’s a failure of your own making, a setback, could be a physical setback, maybe we’ve had victims of abuse, we’ve had all sorts of different kinds of crucibles, very often there’s blame, there’s anger, even there’s bitterness, even rage. And the challenge is at least it’s our belief and my belief that you cannot move on with your life, you cannot get beyond your crucible, title of the podcast, without forgiveness. And so sometimes blame is something like, I don’t know. It’s something that we want to hold and cling on to.
Warwick F:
We don’t want to give them the satisfaction of forgiving them. If it’s something that we’ve done ourselves, we don’t feel that we’re worth forgiving. And so really, why we’re talking about this is, if you don’t forgive, if you don’t try to stop blaming somebody, whether it’s you, others, God, the universe, you can’t move on. If you can’t move on, you’re in what we call a prison, in a sense of your own making. This prison of bitterness and rage and anger. And that’s not a good way to live. There’s no way if you’re in the prison of resentment that you can live a life of joy and fulfillment. It’s just not possible. So, we want to help people… We’re dealers in hope, we want to give people hope here. And there’s not a whole lot of hope when you’re in the prison of blame and bitterness and anger.
Gary S:
That’s absolutely true. And it’s not… Let’s at the outset set the expectation here. Folks, if you’re dealing with some unforgiveness, if you’ve got some things that are going on because of your crucible that it’s hard to forgive someone, this is welcome to the club time, right? If it were easy, we wouldn’t have to talk about it. It would be something that would be natural. It’s not natural. Some of the crucibles, some of the traumas, I call them traumas, tragedy, setbacks, failures at the outset. That’s how I always introduce to show, it’s not easy to find forgiveness. One of the… I did a lot of searching around on the internet for quotes about forgiveness. And we’ll start off with this one from Indira Gandhi. Why is forgiveness so hard? This is what Indira Gandhi said. Forgiveness is a virtue of the brave. Ouch! Right? There’s virtue involved, and you got to be brave.
Gary S:
And those can be things that can be hard to summon sometimes and hard to manifest sometimes, as you’re moving forward. Is that true? That seems fair-
Warwick F:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Indira Gandhi, this prominent, former Prime Minister of India. Yeah, it does take courage. And one of the things which I’m sure we’ll get into, why is forgiveness so hard, because sometimes, and we’ve had all different kinds of guests on the podcast, let’s say it’s… Let’s make it really challenging. Maybe you were abused growing up by a family member or somebody else. It’s like, “Well, if I forgive, am I condoning it? Do I say it’s okay? I want them to know that this what they did just crushed my soul, crushed my life.” And the tragedy of it is, when we think somehow by forgiving we’re letting the other person win, it’s so often when people do bad things to us. This is galling, but often true, is they don’t care. If they know, it doesn’t really worry them that much. It’s galling. It’s often the case that people that do terrible things, sometimes there’s no remorse.
Warwick F:
And so we feel like we have to hold on to this because we don’t want to say it’s okay. And that’s why we’ve talked about this with multiple guests, who’ve been through horrific experiences, and they’ve pretty much all agreed that there is a fundamental difference between forgiving and condoning. And that’s something that’s actually one of the points that we’ll get into. But that’s why Indira Gandhi is right that forgiveness is for the brave, because you’ve got to be willing to say, “Okay, what happened was not right, but I’m going to forgive because I have to do it for my own sanity.” It doesn’t as we’ll get into, it doesn’t happen overnight. It requires a bit like exercise, it requires a lot of work. And you often have to keep coming back to the well. But yeah, it’s not easy. And sadly, so many of us choose not to go there.
Warwick F:
We just, “I’m not going to forgive, because I want to remember how much they hurt me, how bad that was. And I never ever want to forget.” And some reason they think by not forgetting, that’s a good way of handling it. Just fundamentally, you damage yourself. That it’s somehow people saying, “No, no, no, I’m not going to forgive because what they did was wrong.” And they can’t get past that concept.
Gary S:
Right? And the ramifications of that affect both the individual who feels that way and it can affect a wider swath of people. And one of the things we’re going to move as you’ve hinted at a couple times, or we’re going to move into the details, the steps of overcoming that bitterness and that anger and embracing forgiveness that you’ve written in a blog that should be on crucibleleadership.com by the time you hear this listener. If it’s not, it will be there shortly. But I wanted to sort of paint a picture of what forgiveness looks like in action, and what hanging on to anger and bitterness looks like in action. And it’s not my picture, this is a picture by a man named Dr. Kets De Vries, who in advocating for a forgiveness culture, cited the contrast between the results of Nelson Mandela in South Africa who was well known as he was imprisoned under the apartheid system, he was imprisoned for a very long time, finally freed and then became the leader of South Africa. And contrasting him with Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe, who handled things differently than Mandela did.
Gary S:
I’m going to read a couple of paragraphs from what Kets De Vries wrote to paint a picture of what it looks like to live in what he called a forgiveness culture and what it looks like to not, to get started on this conversation. This is what De Vries wrote. “When you fly over Zimbabwe, you see a wasteland.” That’s Robert Mugabe’s country. “When you fly over South Africa, you see something very different.” Two leaders with very different attitudes toward forgiveness. De Vries was a teacher, he says, “If I ask my class, which political leader do you most admire? 95% say Nelson Mandela.” Remember he did this research back when Mandela was still in power. When you ask why, the answer is forgiveness. At the end of South African apartheid, and after 27 years in prison, Mr. Mandela forgave his oppressors, and encouraged many of his party’s members who clamored for revenge to do likewise, telling them, “Forgiveness liberates the soul and removes fear. That’s why it’s such a powerful weapon.” In comparison, Robert Mugabe opted for bitterness, vindictiveness and hatred against white Zimbabweans and the nation’s black citizens who oppose him.
Gary S:
By encouraging supporters to forcibly occupy white owned commercial farms, Zimbabwe, once the breadbasket of Southern Africa became the poorhouse. Under his rule, unemployment rose to between 70% to 80%, life expectancy fell. In mid November 2008, Zimbabwe’s peak month of inflation was estimated at 6.5 sextillion percent, making the national currency basically useless. That’s the difference. Someone who embraced forgiveness, someone who embraced bitterness.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Gary, that is such a superb example, the contrast between Nelson Mandela, the President of South Africa and Robert Mugabe, the Prime Minister, I believe he was of Zimbabwe, couldn’t be greater. As listeners may know, Nelson Mandela was imprisoned for decades maybe in the infamous Robben Island prison in South Africa. But the difference between how they handled how they were treated was very different. As you point out, Mandela, he created these councils of reconciliation, I’m sure where appropriate, there was justice, and things were taken care of as appropriate. But his focus was on the future of South Africa, of have it being a stable, prosperous country. And he created that environment.
Warwick F:
And really, given he was in solitary for years, it would be understandable if he said, “After what you’ve done to me, and people like me, there’s going to be retribution.” But his focus was on the future of South Africa, of it being prosperous with people of all backgrounds. And as you rightly say, contrast it with Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe, that was very different. Understandably, he wanted to make people pay. But as you say, he took all the land from the white farmers, which again, you might say was a good idea, but how about trying to make cooperatives or co ownership of farms or some way in which you can empower and give black people in Zimbabwe a say, and ownership while not losing the intellectual capital? They were not able to achieve that. The focus was on retribution rather than how do we make sure Zimbabwe is prosperous for people of all backgrounds? So, you’re right, it was a huge contrast in how those two leaders handled that situation.
Gary S:
Yeah. And that word picture, that image that we’ve just talked about, it’s a good place to then jump into what your blog’s about. You use the phrase in talking about Zimbabwe and South Africa, what Mandela did allowed for the creation of a stable, prosperous country. What we’re trying to do for individuals who have gone through crucibles, and maybe bumping into some anger, some bitterness sometimes, we’re looking to set them on the path to a stable and significant life. And that’s what the seven points that you discuss in your blog, are really designed to do to set them on that path. So, the first, and you mentioned it a little earlier as we first started talking, but it’s worth repeating, the first step toward embracing and enacting forgiveness, is to realize that you’re worth it. Why is that such a critical place to start?
Warwick F:
Because, especially in one sense, when you’re angry and bitter about what somebody has done to you, you might have been fired, maybe it was abuse, maybe it was divorce, it could be all sorts of things in which you feel like somebody is responsible for making your life miserable. You might even think they’ve made your life a living hell so to speak. How in the world can you forgive them? Well, as we’ve just mentioned before, bitterness and anger puts you in prison. It’s like drinking poison every day. You’re the one that it’s really killing. The other person, as I mentioned, which is galling, often doesn’t care. And so, why is forgiveness important? Because you’re worth it. Because if you want to move on and have a productive life, a life of significance, a life of joy and fulfillment, you cannot do it, it is absolutely not possible, unless you forgive.
Warwick F:
And so forget the other person, you’re worth it, you’re… Because your life matters, and those that love you, they care for you. They believe your life matters. It’s worth it to you, it’s worth it to your loved ones, your family, your friends. The other person wins if you keep being angry and bitter, that’s how they win, if you want to look at it that way. If you want to win, you forgive them. In fact, often nothing can be more difficult to handle for the perpetrator of what they’ve done to you, is if you forgive them. I think even the Bible somewhere talks about pouring coal on some… And that’s true.
Gary S:
Heaping coal. Heaping coal-
Warwick F:
And so, I’m not saying forgive because it’s a way of getting back at them, that’s sort of a weird way of looking at it. But basically, the short story is forgive because you’re worth it, you cannot move on with your life without forgiveness. Not possible.
Gary S:
Sometimes listener, sometime do a search of forgiveness quotes on the internet, you’ll find a whole bunch of stuff. Here’s one that I found from Marianne Williamson, who we’ve talked about before on the podcast Marianne Williamson says this about forgiveness. “The practice of forgiveness, is our most important contribution to the healing of the world.” And that healing of the world starts with healing of ourselves. Before Nelson Mandela could enact policies as President of South Africa that created a prosperous nation, he had to first forgive what was done to him.
Warwick F:
And that’s true, because you look at a lot of the conflicts in the world, like in Ireland, Northern Ireland, the country of Ireland. Protestants, Catholics, it would be like, well, you do something to the other side and then they do something to one of yours. The movies are made out of this. Why you try to take retribution back on some other person. Well, they did it to my dad, my grandfather, my uncle, therefore, it’s payback time. The Arab-Israeli conflict, it never ends. Because of what they did to us, we need to do it to them. Our church has involvement in South Sudan at one of the poorest countries in the world. You have two major tribes that are in the same cycle, because somebody did something to somebody, there’s an endless cycle of retribution, which is just making it impossible to try to lift that country out of poverty.
Warwick F:
It’s hurting everybody in South Sudan. So, the point of all these examples is, lack of forgiveness can destroy countries, destroy communities, destroy the world. It is a big deal.
Gary S:
And it can, as you say in your blog, as you said at the outset of this discussion, as we got into talking about your blog, it can create a prison of your own making that you cannot get out of. So that’s point one of your blog on the seven steps to embrace forgiveness. The second point you make there is… This is critical. It’s a critical caveat, if you will. Forgiving does not mean condoning. Why is that important to stress for folks as we begin to discuss so early on, and we have seven points. Second point is, it’s not equal to condoning.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I think-
Gary S:
Why is that so important to stress at the outset?
Warwick F:
… that’s one of the biggest reasons that people say, “Well, I’m not going to forgive because what they did to me was so wrong. Because by forgiving it means I’m saying it’s okay. I’m giving them the satisfaction of knowing it’s okay.” And everybody we’ve talked to on the podcast has been through crucibles where let’s say, somebody else did something to them. They’ve all agreed, and we’ve had some people talk about pretty horrific crucibles. And the point is, forgiveness and forgiving does not mean condoning, it doesn’t mean that you’re saying what they did was right, it does not mean that there shouldn’t be appropriate legal consequences for what was done. It doesn’t mean that in certain circumstances, they shouldn’t be in prison, or if it’s a case of abuse, that they shouldn’t be distanced for the safety of yourself and your kids. So, it doesn’t mean that you don’t take appropriate measures. That’s the thing is, forgiving doesn’t mean what was done was okay, you’re not countenancing it, you’re not saying it’s alright.
Warwick F:
So, that’s a key concept, it sounds obvious, but if you’re in the midst of this blame, bitterness cycle, it’s not obvious. You’re thinking, “I don’t want to condone.” You got to tell yourself forgiveness and condoning are two different. Just because you forgive doesn’t mean what was done to you was right. It’s a huge concept.
Gary S:
Yeah. And it’s possible. In fact, many times they go hand in hand just as you said, forgiveness from an individual, right? I forgive you for this does not separate the person from any kind of consequences that their actions that caused the crucible to the individual doing the forgiving, that doesn’t release people from this. One of the greatest examples I see of this in the news from time to time, is stories of families who one of their children has been killed, either murdered or killed in an accident by a drunk driver or something like that, and the news loves to show because it’s such a counter to what seems like the eye for an eye metaphor that we like to use all the time in culture. Those stories when those things have happened, someone has been killed, a family will appear at the sentencing of the individual who was convicted of whatever crime might have been committed, and they say, “I forgive you for what you did.” I’m always in awe of that, because not only because it seems dissonant somehow, but because of the grace that’s exhibited in that moment.
Gary S:
Again, that doesn’t mean you should go free. It means I forgive you, I release you from… If we want to take this into a biblical discussion, the idea of forgiveness is to take on another’s sin. Right? To forgive someone who’s wronged you is to take on not responsibility for it, but to take it on and remove it from them and put it on you not the consequences of it. But what you’re holding “against them” you’re releasing. And that is because going back to point one, you’re worth it.
Warwick F:
Yeah. You raise a good point. Is from a biblical perspective, we should forgive because we have first been forgiven. And for people of faith if you believe that irrespective of your denomination, that should mean something. We are commanded to forgive. We have Jesus as somebody that has forgiven us. Now, if you don’t come from that tradition, obviously forgiveness as we’ve mentioned, it’s just for sake of your own soul is important.
Gary S:
And to get… So that folks don’t think that we’re camping only on the Christian religion, I just see it in an article I have here that Mahatma Gandhi said this about this very subject. “An eye for an eye ends up making everyone blind.” Right? The idea of not forgiving, right? An eye for an eye, this bad happened to me, so I’m going to do something bad to you. What you were talking about earlier, this sort of Hatfields and McCoys. I’ve got to get back at you for this, and then it just keeps going on endlessly. Here’s Gandhi saying, “An eye for an eye ends up making everyone blind.” Bad for society and bad for individuals.
Warwick F:
I think that’s true. I think really, the bigger man, the bigger woman, the one who is more mature, has more nobility of spirit, more grace, as you put it, is the one that forgives. You want to be a person of a noble spirit, somebody who is respected, who is admired, maybe even revered. Revered is… That’s a tough one to get to. I know that one should aspire to that. But hypothetically, let’s say you do, it’s the people that are often most admired are the ones who can forgive and get beyond what was done to them. That’s a mark of admiration that people have in our society.
Gary S:
And listener, I don’t do this often, but I’m going to do it here. This is like the first time I’ve done this. Your homework for this episode right now is to write down the phrase nobility of spirit that Warwick just said twice. That is a goal to shoot for. If we say at Crucible Leadership, we say a lot, authenticity is something that you should shoot for. Transparency is something that you should shoot for. Significance is the end game that you want to play for. Nobility of spirit in the context of the blame that can emanate from a crucible, having nobility of spirit towards those who have wronged you, and expressing that nobility of spirit is critical. So, write that phrase down, make that phrase part of your life, because it can make things go completely differently, and it can help you move as the title of this show is, Beyond Your Crucible.
Gary S:
The third point in your blog, Warwick, logically follows from the first two points. If you looked at those first two points and said, “You’re worth it, so forgive the person.” And forgiving doesn’t mean condoning, so forgive them even if they are really bad things. The third point seems to follow logically from that, and that is forgiveness is not easy. That’s somewhat self evident, isn’t it?
Warwick F:
It is. It’s a bit like running a marathon. Once you finish the first mile, the race isn’t over, you got… If it’s 26 miles like Olympic marathon, is you got 25 to go. Yeah, it takes time, it’s a matter of the will. It’s not like, “Oh, I don’t feel like forgiving.” What you feel like doing is really not very relevant. It’s a choice. It’s a decision, you forgive because you feel like it’s worth it from a spiritual Christian perspective, we forgive because we’re commanded to, from a broader perspective you forgive because you’re worth it. Not only are you worth it, your wife, husband, kids, grandparents, friends, they’re worth it. Because I think as you’ve mentioned, Gary, bitterness and anger, it affects more than just you, it affects everybody around you that knows you well.
Warwick F:
And so, not only are you worth it, but your friends and family are worth it. And so that should motivate, but it does take time. And it’s not like, “Okay, I choose to forgive X horrific act. Good, I’ll wake up tomorrow and I’ll feel great.” No. It takes a lot of time. It can take months, it can take years. Obviously some of that… And I think we might get into this a bit more later. Sometimes we need to get help, and we’ll talk about that in a bit. Part of what certainly helped me in the area of forgiveness is if you try to understand the other person, understanding doesn’t mean condoning, okay? But understand how people grew up. It’s very often the case that those who abuse were abused themselves. Now, I’m not a psychologist, so I can’t get my head around how that could happen. But from what they tell me, that is very common, that those who abuse were abused.
Warwick F:
And so therefore, as you think about that, just try to… It doesn’t mean you condone it, but if that’s all somebody ever knew, well, they’re probably going to abuse. So just that notion of when you have compassion for somebody, it’s harder to be angry at somebody if you have compassion for them and understanding and maybe even some empathy for them. That does take work. That’s not easy, especially in tough cases like abuse. But in my experience, at least it can help to a degree.
Gary S:
Yeah. And forgiveness is in most cases, true, deep, noble spirit forgiveness, is a marathon not a sprint. And this idea of, it’s not easy, in marathons they have little water stations that you stop at as you’re running it, just to kind of catch your breath, because they know you’re going to need to catch your breath. I think that’s what this idea of it’s not easy, it takes time. Give yourself that grace as you’re going through this process. We’ve unpacked now three steps for forgiveness.
Warwick F:
Just one more thing I wanted to say on that, before we get to the step four is, there’s a couple things, which is one is, for people that we have a difficult relationship with, whether it’s a friend or a family member, is typically won’t be one incident. Right? “Okay, good. I forgave him for this and we’re good.” As I say, it’s the gift that keeps on giving. And I’ve had experience in my life, it’s like, “Can you quit doing new stuff? Because I’m having trouble catching up. Okay? I forgave you for the last 20, but you just piled on 10 more. Give me a break. I can’t…” It’s like you’re forcing me to sprint 26 miles. How about a leisurely jog? A marathon isn’t meant to be run like 100 meter race, but you’re forcing me.
Warwick F:
I can’t keep up. Life’s not fair. I get it. And so, that’s why it’s not easy, because it’s like the Bible says, how many times do you have to forgive? It’s like 70 times seven, which is a way of saying an infinite number of times. So, it’s not easy. That’s part of why it’s not easy. And a further point that I didn’t really put in the blog is, I think forgiveness is-
Gary S:
Bonus content. That’s bonus content.
Warwick F:
Exactly. Forgiveness is a bit like weeding. So, when you feel that little, slight tinge of resentment coming up, slight anger, rage, is like, “Oh, I’m not going to go there. I know where that’s heading.” That little weed is going to become a lot little ember. Let’s change metaphors. That little ember is going to become a forest fire. Nip it at the bud. Pour water on it before it becomes a huge bushfire, as we say in Australia. It’s much harder to deal with. So-
Gary S:
I want to stay with your weeding metaphor for a second though, because… Let’s go back to that. What does weeding involve? When you’re done weeding for the day, you’re dirty, because you’ve got your hands in there, right?
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Gary S:
Forgiveness can get you dirty, forgiveness takes work. It’s not just something you snap your fingers at, to your point that it’s not easy and that it takes time. It’s like weeding. But here’s the other way that it’s like weeding. What’s the purpose of weeding? Why do you weed things out from around your flowers?
Warwick F:
Well done.
Gary S:
What are you trying to get in the end?
Warwick F:
You’re trying to get beautiful flowers or a beautiful lawn. And you don’t get the beauty without dealing with the dirt and dealing with the weeds. And yeah, it’ll crush the flowers and… Awesome points. Yeah.
Gary S:
Let’s move on now to… So we’ve gotten to the water station on our marathon, we’ve stopped, we’ve taken a sip. Now, we’re going to move on to the fourth point that you make in your blog. And this is where we really get into now some tips that you have for things you can do to help you on the process of embracing. And this is the enacting part of forgiveness. And the first one, point 4 from your blog is channel your pain in a more productive way. What do you mean by that?
Warwick F:
So, very often the people we’ve had on Beyond the Crucible on this podcast, they’ve channeled their pain in a way to help others. So, for instance, victims of abuse may try to help prevent other people being abused or for abuse survivors who have been abused, they will come alongside them, and try to help them and say, “I know where you’ve been. I’ve suffered your pain. I know what you feel like.” And there’s something very comforting when people feel not only understood, but they’re not alone. You know what they’re going through. You’re not just offering something from some ivory tower, you’re in there with them. That’s the highest degree of empathy when we can say, “I’ve been there with you, I know what it feels like. It’s awful.” It will get better, but it could take years, but just hang in there one step at a time. So it’s so often that a vision that you’re off the charts passionate about, can come out of your worst day, out of your crucible. We say that all the time.
Warwick F:
And maybe it’s not a direct correlation of, “Okay, if I was abused, I’m going to help other victims of abuse.” Maybe it’s something different. But it’s so often that you use your pain for a purpose to use that oft used aphorism. By using what you’ve been through to help others, there’s no question, there’s a healing component. And certainly, as I talk about a lot on the podcast, my crucible is a bit different. It was more certainly in large part due to my own failures and mistakes. But even… And we’ll get to forgiving yourself, which is one of the points we get to later. But I found in my own life, as I’m able to use my pain to help others, it doesn’t remove the scar completely, or the scab. But it does provide some level of healing, healing balm, as we say. There’s no question that it does ease your pain if you’re able to use it in a way to help others.
Gary S:
And in that healing for you, and perhaps for others, usually for others, there comes as you said at the outset, we’re dealers in hope here at Crucible Leadership. With that healing comes hope for you and for others, correct?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Absolutely. When you can see that you’re able to help others, that gives you hope, it gives others hope. Hope does in a sense, tends to crush resentment. It tends to crush anger and bitterness. It’s hard when you’re filled with hope. Hope leads to Joy. Joy tends to put out anger and resentment. So, this sounds a bit sort of positive psychology, if you will. But good thoughts are better than negative thoughts. Negative thoughts which could have been another point in here, anger and bitterness, I’m sure it’s not that hard to find studies that will show it’s not good for your health, it’s not good for longevity. So you want to live longer and be healthier, don’t consume yourself with rage and anger. It’s just terrible for your health.
Gary S:
And that is a is an excellent. We haven’t talked about this. This is what I love about these discussions. I withhold things from you, and then you say something, and it’s like a perfect on ramp to what I want to say. And that’s this. Here’s another quote along the lines of what you just said. This is from Martin Luther King Jr. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said this, “We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us, and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies.” If that isn’t forgiveness ending in hope, I don’t know what is.
Warwick F:
That’s so true. Yeah. The ability to forgive does help us to love and vice versa the ability to love. Yeah, there’s something about that. And as listeners know, Martin Luther King is talking about in just the whole civil rights struggle that beset the United States history for really its whole history since its founding, and a lot of division, a lot of pain, a lot of understandable hurt of hundreds of years. But Martin Luther King had an ability to not condone, to understand, to promote civil rights, yet do it in a way that in a spirit of forgiveness, not condoning, in a spirit of love. He was able to bring people together. I haven’t memorized his I Have a Dream speech off by heart, but I’m sure that there was plenty of having a dream of where there wouldn’t be division, where there would be love, where people will be treated based on the content of their character, not the color of their skin. He had a vision that’s still working itself out. I wouldn’t say we’re there yet. Hopefully, we will be one day. But yes, love is a great antidote to bitterness and resentment.
Gary S:
Yeah. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. That almost if you didn’t have three other really good points to make, I’d be like, “Let’s drop the microphone and go.” Because that really is the essence of it. One of the… Who wants to be that person who is devoid of the power to love? That’s what-
Warwick F:
I almost say-
Gary S:
… you’re urging people to do.
Warwick F:
… the most loving people are probably the most forgiving. Think of people in your life who you think, that family member, that friend, their capacity for love is as great as I’ve ever seen it. How much bitterness did that person have? My guess would be zero to very, very little. It’d be hard to think of a loving, caring person that was filled with rage or anger. Just not possible.
Gary S:
And in the… I mean to extend that a bit, in the the universe of Crucible Leadership, it’s hard to think of someone who’s living a life of significance, who is full of bitterness and anger, who cannot forgive. Certainly, Dr. Martin Luther King lived a life of significance, as did Nelson Mandela. Those folks that we’ve talked about so far who have followed this principle, this nobility of character, which you mentioned. Yes, there’s hope, there’s love connected to that. But that all points to helping others and a life of significance.
Warwick F:
Yeah, there hasn’t been one person that I can remember in the 50, 60 guests we’ve had, all of whom, the vast majority of whom have been through crucibles often horrific ones, I can’t think of any of them that are riddled with anger and bitterness. Doesn’t mean to say you don’t have an angry or bitter moment, we’re all human, but their lives are characterized by love and forgiveness. I wouldn’t say the headline of their lives is rage, anger and bitterness would be how you would headline their obituary. That’s not the case for any of the guests we’ve had. So, it’s very true.
Gary S:
Point five in your blog, which is either on crucibleleadership.com right now, or is headed there shortly. So, if it’s not there, when you check listener, please go back and check. If it is there, we’ll put it in the show notes too so you can see that it is there. Your next point is that one of the ways to enact after you embrace the importance of forgiveness is to get help. And that can take many forms can’t it?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. So, if you’re serious about dealing with blame, dealing with anger, bitterness, rage, you’ve got to be willing to do the work. If you got to run a marathon, you got to get training, you got to eat right, you got to stretch, exercise, you got to prepare. Well, you got to be serious. You can’t just say, “Oh, I’m going to forgive.” Oh really, how’s that going to happen? But you got to do the work. Part of doing the work, maybe involving counseling and therapy, it really depends. If you’re a victim of abuse or trauma, it’s pretty likely that that will be helpful and necessary.
Warwick F:
It really depends on the situation. It may be talking to friends or family members, maybe it’s… Maybe you don’t have clinical depression or some issue that you feel warrants that. Often counseling, I think many of us, myself included, have been through counseling at times where I’ve been through a few challenges myself. And one of the things that I believe is counseling, or seeking help, it’s not a sign of weakness, it’s a sign of bravery, a sign of courage. It says, “Look, I may feel kind of broken, I’ve felt pretty broken at times in my life, it’s okay to want to get help.” You don’t get mended, you don’t get healed without help. So whether it’s formal counseling from a psychologist or a therapist, whether it’s more informal, and obviously, you’ve got to know which one, it depends on the nature of what you’re dealing with. So seek help, be wise in terms of the choices you pick.
Warwick F:
But whether it’s formal counseling or a friend, mentor, family member, it’s helpful. Oftentimes, even now with my wife and not involving clinical issues, but I may be feel bad about something or resentful, or a little angry, or something, nothing massive, I’ll say to my wife, “I’m feeling bad but I can’t figure out why.” And after a short dialogue, she’ll say, “Is it this? Is it that?” She knows me very well. Our spouse, our friends, they know us. 99% of the time it works. It’s like, “Okay, got it. Now I know what it is I can deal with it.” Sometimes you feel bad, you don’t even know what the thing is, you just feel slightly agitated, slightly angry, to sort of name it, deal with it kind of thing.
Warwick F:
So, that’s… And that’s not over massive things necessarily, just things that come up day-to-day. And not everything. I’m all for counseling, not everything means you need to go to a counselor 24/7, sometimes you do, sometimes it’s a little weed popping its head up. It’s not a clinical issue, seek friends that can help you and figure it out and help you forgive. So, bottom line is get help.
Gary S:
Yeah. And one of the things I love about this discussion in the context of Crucible Leadership, is you talk, in your book you write about the need to get beyond your crucible, to enact your vision, to make your vision a reality and live a life of significance, it takes a team. Having a team around you is essential to being able to walk out your vision to get to a life of significance. The same can be said about the need of a team to get you to a place where you can both embrace and then enact forgiveness, right?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Whether it’s counseling, family members, friends. And then as you move forward in using your pain to help others, you’ll need a team to help enact your vision, which will actually help with the pain. A team at all levels, both in dealing with the anger and bitterness, and being able to move forward beyond that to live a productive life. It requires a team and sometimes that really will lead into a point we’ll get to here in a bit, is there’s a power of kind of being vulnerable. There’s a power in when sharing what’s happened to you as… Well, it’s really… Let’s right into point six, funny enough. Modeling.
Gary S:
Let’s take it. Warwick just hijacks my role as the co host. But that’s fine. Point six, modeling forgiveness helps others and that’s part of a team thing.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Gary S:
So, please unpack that for us.
Warwick F:
And so part of vulnerability, we had actually on the podcast, quoting Andrea Anderson Polk, she’s very vulnerable about what she went through in her family and uses it to help others in terms of just a very challenging upbringing. When you’re vulnerable about what you went through, and then talk about maybe how you were able to overcome it, it helps people feel not alone, but it also helps people have hope. So, it’s possible that you can… Nobody wants to go through pain, especially horrific pain, and things that are just… May think are unspeakable in terms of how awful it was. But when you use that to help others, it’s never right what happened, but maybe there’s a purpose in that pain. Maybe, the fact in the Bible talks that the life of Joseph when his brothers threw him in a pit and sold him off to slavery off to Egypt, which is about having family members sell you off as a slave, it’s about as horrific a thing as you could possibly have happen.
Warwick F:
And Joseph says, “They meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.” So, whether you believe in God or spirituality, or the universe, there can be a sense where if you use your pain to help others, there can be a healing component, there can be a way that that awful thing that happened to you can be used for good. And that makes pain easier to live with if somehow it’s being used for good. It doesn’t make it all go away, it’s no question, it does help I think significantly.
Gary S:
Yeah. And modeling that forgiveness. We’ve talked about people like Martin Luther King, Jr. When Martin Luther King Jr. says, “He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love,” and I reflect on his life, I think I’ve got absolutely nothing I shouldn’t be able to forgive. Right? The things that he… The things that that statement models about forgiveness, what he endured, what African Americans endured in the struggle for civil rights, and in many cases still endure today, that he could say that, models forgiveness in a way that can change hearts, that makes me reorient my thinking about it. Same thing with Nelson Mandela, that he could do that makes me reorient my heart. Now, we’ll go back to the example of Mugabe, that makes me sort of check my heart, I want to make sure I’m not living in that place.
Gary S:
So, the power of modeling forgiveness is that it can help overcome some of those things that we talked about at the beginning. It can take a long time. Oh, it’s too hard. It can seem like we’re condoning it. The modeling of someone who has had much to forgive who’s transparent about what they have to forgive, the modeling of that, really can help provide a big breakthrough in our own efforts to come to that place of embracing-
Warwick F:
Yeah. Another example which we spoke about Northern Ireland and the country of Ireland, that Protestant and Catholic challenges, the troubles in 70s, 80s, whenever it was, the violence. That rift goes back hundreds of years and as historians and others might know, when the British occupied Ireland hundreds of years ago, that sort of… Some would say that led to what happened, but that hostility between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland goes back hundreds of years. There was a point at which you said, “There’s no way that that will ever change.” Hundreds of years of bitterness is tough. It has changed. It doesn’t go to zero, but it’s significantly better than it was. So forgiveness in a society, it can happen. Not easy, but it can happen.
Gary S:
Yeah. And it can inspire the people who live in that society for sure.
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Gary S:
The final point that you make in your blog at crucibleleadership.com, if not now, then soon listener, is that it really sort of summarizes everything and may land on for some people who the hardest person to forgive is. And that is, forgive yourself. Why is that sort of the final place to talk about forgiveness for you in the blog?
Warwick F:
So, sometimes we focus a lot understandably on terrible often unspeakable things that were done to us and how tough that is to forgive. And it is tough to forgive. And again, forgiving doesn’t mean condoning. But what happens if you’re the perpetrator? My case, I was young, idealistic, foolish perhaps, I didn’t deliberately try to hurt anybody, but by launching this to $2.25 billion takeover that failed, yeah, it ended up hurting, I don’t know, four or 5000 employees, there was uncertainty. Largely speaking, people didn’t lose their job, but it caused bitterness within the family, it ended 150 years of family control of a large media organization in Australia.
Warwick F:
So, yeah. It was sort of obviously a big deal. Well, I had to forgive myself for my own naivety, stupidity, and my book which comes out in October, is largely focused on my own stupidity and the lessons learned as well as from other places, but that’s the core of the book. And so sometimes, let’s say… Let’s say you’re the person who did horrific things, whether it’s abuse or what have you. I don’t know how you forgive yourself for those sorts of things. It’s easy to say you should never forgive yourself. And I guess it depends on what spiritual paradigm, and there are consequences. Depending on what it is, you should obviously try to attone, make amends. That’s a tough thing. But I think in general, we do believe that you need to forgive yourself, because if you’re going to try and help other people, you’ve got to find a way to do that. If you are going to live a productive life that benefits.
Warwick F:
If you’re just filled with anger and rage of what you’ve done, the anger and rage will only tend to hurt more people. The cycle of damage and harm that you’re doing to others, just to take it to the extreme, it’ll keep going unless you can forgive yourself. Which again, from a Christian perspective, God forgives us because that’s why I he sent his son to Earth so that we can be forgiven from the least bad thing to the biggest. So, it depends on your spiritual frame of reference. But either way, you’ve got to find a way to forgive yourself to be able to move on, have a productive life, have some degree of joy and fulfillment and live a life of significance, a live on purpose dedicated to serving others. If you don’t forgive yourself, you’re not going to be able to help the world in any fashion or form. So, that can be the highest mountain, the toughest hill to climb sometimes to forgive yourself. But-
Gary S:
Indeed.
Warwick F:
… if you care about others like your family, your friends, other people, you’ve got to find a way, you got to make a choice. It may not be easy. If you have a degree of self awareness, that can be pretty tough. You can just want to perpetually beat yourself to a pulp. In my own way, me was more being young and foolish, I went through a lot of the 90s thinking, “How stupid can I be? Why didn’t I talk to family members? Why did I do this? Why did I do that? Oh my gosh, how dumb can I?” Why? Why? Why? Endless whys. You’re not always going to get an answer to the why’s, you’ve got to find a way to forgive yourself if you care about the people around you, and if you care about using the pain that you’ve inflicted in a sense to help others.
Gary S:
And that what you just described about forgiving yourself, I think operates on two axes. One is forgiving yourself to yourself. And I think you had a lot of that to do after the takeover failed and as you put it you made bad decisions and you had to sort of forgive yourself for ending the family control of the company and the loss of the heritage and those things. But there’s also as you alluded to quite a bit there, forgiving yourself of things that you have done to others. And I have some experience with this concept from Alcoholics Anonymous. I am as we are having this conversation 24 years sober. And one of the principles I learned first week in Alcoholics Anonymous, as one of the steps of the 12 step program, one of the steps is to make amends for those you’ve wronged, make amends to those you’ve wronged.
Gary S:
And the idea that was implanted in me by my sponsor, and the idea that’s in what they call the big book, the book of Alcoholics Anonymous that helps people along that 12 step journey, is you’re only responsible in that context for your side of the street. Yes, you ask for forgiveness, you apologize, you seek forgiveness for those wrongs that you’ve committed where you can seek forgiveness, where it’s not going to make the situation worse, where the person still around, where you can, you make those amends. But once you’ve done that, you’re not responsible for how that’s received, you have to then come to the place where you forgive yourself for what you’ve done, you’ve done what you can, you’ve cleaned your side of the street, and then you have to move on.
Gary S:
I think that’s one of the part of forgiving yourself is being able to… Is realizing that when you go to seek forgiveness from others, you may not get a… I’ve discovered 85% of the time when I do that, people are gracious, people are kind, people are loving, people are understanding. But there are some people where you don’t get that, you have to be okay with that knowing that you’ve done all you can to make it right. And that’s where you have to be able to forgive yourself.
Warwick F:
I think it’s a profound point you make there, Gary. There’s two sides of it is, if you’ve asked for forgiveness and you’ve done it genuinely from the heart, you’ve tried to make amends, do everything you feel that should be done. If they don’t forgive you, that’s up to them, that’s between them and their creator, or however they look at life. You’re not responsible for that. But the other side of the coin is, when things have been bad done to us, sometimes we feel led to confront that person and say, “What you did to me was wrong.” And you want them to apologize, you want them to ask you for forgiveness. Very often from my experience, that doesn’t happen. Most people are not self aware enough or not willing to own what they did, or the blame to apologize.
Warwick F:
So you have to… As appropriate and you have to… Whether it’s counseling, or seek the advice of family and friends, as appropriate as you feel led by all means, confront the situation, again, if it’s not a safety issue, and just say what you did was wrong and basically ask them to ask you for your forgiveness of them. That often doesn’t happen. And you got to live with that. Okay, I confronted the situation, I was hoping they’d apologize, they never did, I’m going to forgive them as an act of the will even though they never said, “I’m sorry.” In the majority of cases in my experience, people aren’t particularly good at saying, “I’m sorry.” You’ve got to be the bigger man, the bigger woman and you try, they didn’t say sorry, they didn’t apologize, you still got to forgive.
Gary S:
Right. The truest definition of forgiveness, the truest realization of forgiveness on both sides, whether you’re asking for it, or it’s coming in… or you need it, is it’s not dependent upon the other person either accepting your apology, or the other person apologizing to you. It’s dependent upon, as you’ve said many times, it’s an act of the will. It’s about the nobility of character that comes from being able to release that anger and bitterness, whether it’s towards yourself because of what you might have done, or it’s towards others for what they might have done, regardless of how that commerce has gone in the exchange of, “Please forgive me,” or someone doesn’t say, “Please forgive me,” regardless of how that goes, you have to be able to… Forgiveness is not dependent upon someone asking for apology or you receiving apology. It’s something that you control. And that’s why I think what AA talks about, what my sponsor talked about, all you’re responsible for, all you can control is your side of the street. And that’s true in the pursuit of and the reception of forgiveness.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Kind of one final point that occurs to me just on this, I think it’s very often helpful to have models of forgiveness. Family members, friends, people who have come before us. You’ve mentioned obviously Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, tremendous examples of forgiveness. If you’re fortunate, maybe you have family members, people you actually know personally. And for me, one in my life was my dad. As listeners would know, my dad had the same name as me, Warwick Fairfax, but he was knighted so he was Sir Warwick Fairfax, and he both had nobility of spirit, nobility, I suppose in title, I guess. He looked every bit the nobleman instead of central casting, if you will. But he had nobility of spirit.
Warwick F:
And that was exemplified when 11 years before the takeover in 1976, some other family members got together because they had enough shares, they threw him out as Chairman, and I was 15 at the time. I felt like it was the definition of a righteous man falsely persecuted, whether it’s true or not, depends on your perspective. But I just… I probably had my own share of bitterness at the time with a father I dearly loved, how could they do that? But in his own way, and I don’t pretend it was perfect, because few of us it’s not easy to forgive perfectly, we can only do our best. But when I asked him at the time, “Well, how did you deal with all this?” He said, “Well, I made a decision to forgive because that’s what God would have me do.” And it just blew my mind at age 15, that he could say that. Now, you could analyze that and say, “Well, Warwick wasn’t perfect.”
Warwick F:
And he may not have been perfect, but he did that because it was the right thing to do. And he thought it would be the best thing for me, he would hope one day I’d take a leading position in the company, but just that decision he made to forgive what to me seemed pretty unforgivable, totally unwarranted was astounding to me. And that’s been really the model for my life in terms of a human that I actually know. That model of forgiveness has stood with me my whole life in terms of if my father, Sir Warwick Fairfax, if he can forgive what that was done to him, then I should be able to forgive. It was a powerful model that’s been a sort of a touchstone for me.
Gary S:
Yeah. And it’s something that you’re still acting on, you’re still living through, you’re still enacting, you’re still embracing and enacting.
Warwick F:
Been a lot of decades.
Gary S:
All these years later. I don’t want to do the math, but if you were 15 then, it’s been a while and you’re still talking about it. And more importantly, you’re still living it and exhorting others to it.
Warwick F:
Right. And so the point of what you’re saying is, one of the other points is my modeling forgiveness does it help others? At least it helped me. It’ll help other members of his family. I don’t know whether he saw it that way at the time, but it wasn’t just about him, it helped other members of my family. Certainly, it helped me. So, that was a gift he gave me. That act of forgiveness. It was incredible.
Gary S:
That is a fantastic time to put down the landing gear on our conversation and begin the process of bringing the plane in for a landing. What Warwick, as you sort of think about all the ground that we’ve covered today, what’s the thought and exhortation, and insights you’d like to leave listeners with today?
Warwick F:
I’d say forgiveness is an act of the will. It’s a choice, it’s not a feeling. It’s not about I don’t feel like forgiving. That’s not relevant. What’s relevant is, you need to forgive, it’s the right thing to do, you’re worth it. Get out of the prison of anger, bitterness and resentment. If you want joy and fulfillment, if you want freedom, freedom from bondage. Bitterness is like weeds, it’s like chains, throw off the chains, seek freedom and not because you feel like it, not because other people you think may be worth it, but you’re worth it, your family’s worth it, your friends are worth it. Forgive because it’s the right thing to do and you’re worth it, it’s a choice, it’s not about how you feel.
Gary S:
This would be the moment now that we dropped the mic, boom. Plane’s landed, we’ve dropped the mic. Thank you for another fascinating discussion. And I hope listeners you found this to be a discussion that is helpful. To that end, I would like to leave you with on his blogs, Warwick always ends every blog, one blog a month, find him at crucibleleadership.com, but he ends every blog with three reflection points. And as you’ve listened to this conversation, as things have been stirred in you, here’s three reflections that we would encourage you to ask yourself moving forward about this very big topic. This is a very big subject that we’ve discussed here on forgiveness. The first reflection, What is it that you need to forgive, be it in yourself and others? Identify that thing, write that thing down, give it some thought.
Gary S:
Second, how will forgiving enable you to move on beyond your crucible? That’s a very personal thing to think about. Take the time to think about that. How will forgiving enable you to move on? Be specific, as you sort of noodle on that, as you sort of jot some thoughts out about that. And then the third point of reflection, and I love how Warwick does this. This is kind of Warwick’s default place to go when he’s exhorting you to take action. What one step will you choose to take today? Not tomorrow, not put it on your calendar for next week. What one step will you choose to take today to get out of the prison of anger and bitterness? The prison that can stifle your pursuit of a life of significance, let alone your ability to move beyond your crucible. So, listener until we are together the next time, please remember that your crucible experiences are painful, we know that. Warwick knows that, he’s talked at length about his crucible and the pain it’s caused him. I know that. I’ve talked at less length about it, but trust me, I’ve been through them.
Gary S:
But here’s the good news. Neither Warwick nor I are still stuck in those crucible moments. And you don’t have to be either. If you lean into the lessons of your crucible, if you learn those lessons, and you apply them like we’ve talked about today, one of those lessons is the necessity, the value, the life giving impetus of forgiveness. If you apply lessons like that to your life, your crucible is not the end of your story, then it’s not the period at the end of your book. It is in fact, the beginning of a new chapter in that book of your life. And that chapter can be the most rewarding chapter you have as you live out your life because where it leads to, where that final sentence will end at, will be a life of significance.
Crucible experiences are hard to get over. One of the hardest parts of getting over a devastating failure or setback is forgiving others or yourself. You may have been wronged, harmed or even abused by someone. How in the world can you forgive them for what they did to you? You may have failed and let down those who counted on you, perhaps even people that loved you. Why should anyone forgive you? How can you forgive yourself?
Forgiving others and forgiving yourself, which can sometimes be almost harder, is critical to overcoming crucible experiences. Anger and bitterness, however understandable or even justified you may think they are, do not help you. They lock you in a prison of anger and resentment, even seething rage at times. How do you move on with your life amidst constant waves of anger and rage? How do you live a productive life and live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, with such constant negative emotions? The short answer is that you don’t.
So how do you forgive? How do you, how can you, move forward? Is it even possible?
Yes, it is. Try these steps.
1. You are worth it!
Anger and bitterness indeed form a prison from which there is no escape. Perhaps somebody did something to you that you think is unforgivable. Even if that is the case, ask yourself whether that seething rage serves you. Is it freeing you or do you feel that your anger and bitterness own you? No matter how awful the circumstances, you let the anger and bitterness win if you don’t forgive. You in effect let the other person win who wronged you. Why let anger and bitterness and the other person win? You owe it to yourself and those who love you to move on, to live a productive life.
2. Forgiving does not mean condoning.
Just because you forgive someone does not mean you approve or accept their behavior. Nor does it mean that where appropriate there shouldn’t be legal consequences. People who cause injustice should be held accountable. Forgiveness and condoning bad behavior are two different concepts.
3. Forgiveness takes time.
It is a matter of the will. And it is not easy. You choose to forgive not because you feel like it, but because you are worth it. For your own sanity and for those who love you and care for you, you just need to do it. One way that can be helpful is to try to understand what motivated the other person to do what they did. For instance, it is often the case that those who abuse were often abused themselves. That does not make abuse right. But trying to understand what led to someone abusing others can help you process the emotions roiling around inside you. It might even give us some level of compassion for someone who was abused themselves. Again, this is not about condoning, but about finding ways for you to be able to move on.
4. Channel your pain in a more productive way.
For instance, for those who may have been abused or betrayed, trying to comfort others who have been abused and betrayed can actually help you. When you focus on being there for others, with caring for others who are in pain, it takes your focus off your own pain. You are thinking of others not yourself. That act of thinking of others while not being consumed by your own pain can actually be helpful even healing.
5. Get help.
Sometimes anger and bitterness can be so deep rooted that counseling or therapy can be helpful. Seeking counseling is not a sign of weakness. It is a sign of strength. It is a sign that you are willing to deal with your pain, move on and lead a productive life.
6. Modeling forgiveness helps others.
By showing others that you can forgive what many may see as unforgivable, you show them the way. You model for them what it means to let go of what is holding you back and not serving you, and to be able to move on and lead a productive life. You show them that you refuse to let anger and bitterness win.
7. Forgive yourself.
Sometimes forgiving yourself can be the highest mountain to climb. Sometimes we are the people who may have done what others may think is unforgivable. Sometimes we may have done things we think are unforgiveable, unwise decisions and actions that have hampered our lives – from struggling with addiction to poor professional choices from which we have yet to fully recover. If others should be forgiven, then perhaps we should forgive ourselves. This does not mean we shouldn’t try to make amends for what we have done. It doesn’t mean there’s not work ahead of us because of the consequences of our behavior. Sometimes part of the atoning work for the mistakes we have made can come through encouraging others to not make the same mistakes that we did. To help reduce the incidence of what we did. Using our mistakes and failures to help others can be part of the healing process for us. It can also lead us to pursue a vision that leads to our own life of significance.
Forgiveness of others or of yourself is not easy. But to live a productive life, a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, it is vital. You are worth it! Do not let anger and bitterness win! You are not defined by the worst thing that happened to you, or even by your worst mistake or failure. We are defined by our choices and how we choose to deal with adversity. Offer forgiveness to others and offer forgiveness to yourself. That is part of what it means to live a life of peace and grace, and indeed a life of joy.
Reflection
What is it that you need to forgive, be it in others or in yourself?
How will forgiving enable you to move on?
What one step will you choose to take today to get out of the prison of anger and bitterness?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
How do you find purpose in your life and work that allows you to create a legacy that stretches beyond the bottom line of balance sheets and the showy flash of corporate perks? Kevin Edwards, host of the Real Leaders podcast, has discovered through hundreds of interviews with high-powered high achievers – interviews that date back to college – that one of the greatest crucibles most face is settling for success and not pursuing significance. The antidote? Finding a calling that allows you to do good for others even as you do well for yourself.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Kevin E:
Work, no matter what you do does give you a purpose. So when you think about where I was at that time, interviewing all these social entrepreneurs, hearing their stories of these Crucible moments, like, “I was 40 years down the line and my kids and wife left me because I was so focused on growth. We shouldn’t be doing this.”
Kevin E:
So you hear these stories and you think about that inception point about when people are actually going to start their work. And we have these career fairs where people come in, they flash all these shiny objects at you, “Come work for my company, we’ve got beer on Friday,” or “Come work for my company, we’ve got this cool office.” It’s not the way to go at all. I think we’ve got a big problem here on our hands, I’m glad that we’re talking about today.
Gary S:
We are indeed talking about it this week, about how to find purpose in your life and work, that allows you to create a legacy that stretches beyond the bottom line of balance sheets and the showy flash of corporate perks. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communication’s director for Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
Warwick’s guest for this episode is Kevin Edwards, host of The Real Leaders podcast, who has discovered through hundreds of interviews with high-powered high achievers, interviews that date back to college, that one of the greatest crucibles most face is settling for success and not pursuing significance. What’s the antidote? Finding a calling that allows you to do good for others, even as you do well for yourself.
Warwick F:
Well, Kevin, it’s wonderful to have you here on the podcast. I love being on your podcast, Real Leaders. You’re so good at being a podcast host, the depth of questions that you asked, as I was mentioning off-air, the clip that you had of me, maybe one, if not the best, clip we’ve ever had. So thank you for coming on the podcast.
Gary S:
And I’m the guy who picks the clips for the episode. So thanks for that, Kevin.
Kevin E:
I am glad I could one up you.
Warwick F:
There you go. Exactly. Yeah. Kevin, you set the bar high. So, no pressure.
Gary S:
Yes.
Warwick F:
Well, yeah. And just, the whole concept of Real Leaders… I’m just looking at what’s on your website and I love what you have here. Real Leaders is dedicated to elevating and accelerating the global impact movement in order to inspire wise solutions to the issues that matter most. That whole concept of what it takes to be a real leader is more than just success as we talked about in our last conversation.
Warwick F:
But before we get to Real Leaders and what you do now, tell us a bit about Kevin Edwards, where you grew up, the background that led you to really get involved in podcasting and Real Leaders… connect the dots for us about your background and how you got to where you are now.
Kevin E:
Yeah. Thanks Warwick. And yeah, Gary. I’ll go in the same point because I get those guests that come on a show that always give me those long bios.
Gary S:
I know.
Kevin E:
And really when I was starting out, it was just so awkward, just reading these bios, just touting them like, “How about they just tell me who they are.” That’s why I just want to give you something short and sweet. And I am the host of Real Leaders podcast, where leaders keep it real, of course. But I started out really as an intern for Real Leaders. There at the time I think had four employees, so fairly small company, small businesses, I love small businesses.
Kevin E:
The founder came to me and he said, “Hey, would you mind writing some stories on some social entrepreneurs?” I said, “What are social entrepreneurs?” I had no idea what they were, I was into entrepreneurship at the time, I had my own pressure washing business, going to local neighbors and asking them if I could pressure wash their deck or drive way for a couple of bucks in the summer.
Kevin E:
Yeah. This internship opportunity came about and I said, “Well, Mark, that’s great.” I can certainly write some stories. I’m not really that good of a writer, but for young Real Leaders, not that many people our age are reading magazines nowadays. This is the time when Facebook just rolled out their videos. So I had one of my best friends on campus, I went to the University of Arizona, who was the philanthropic video editor, would do all those fun, cool little videos. And he was the best, I mean, he had the whole campus swag going on, everyone was rocking his shirts, everyone wanted to be in part of their videos.
Kevin E:
So I said, “Hey, how about we make business cool? How about I go out and interview some of these social entrepreneurs, and really just get to understand and learn what they do?” So I just went up the West Coast with him in his car after sophomore year. And no budget whatsoever, we just told Mark, “Hey, just give us a shot.” So we rent some basic equipment on Amazon, I’m sure we’re all trying to figure out microphones, I’ve got a nice setup here now, but it wasn’t this way before.
Kevin E:
It was a couple of lapel mics that worked one every 10 times and he had a camera… and keep in mind I’m 6’3, and we’re doing these walking interviews. So my buddy, Tucker, he’s holding this camera up here, he’s about 5’9. So, after we thought, we were biting off more than we could chew, we’re doing about 10 interviews a day with these social entrepreneurs, 30 minutes each. So, by the end of the summer, Tucker had some ripped shoulders there. But, yeah.
Gary S:
And you told me when we talked in advance of this interview, that while you were on that road trip, you stayed at some five star accommodations. I think you indicated you slept where?
Kevin E:
So, first stop was actually in San Diego, and we had a good time there. And then we went up to San Francisco from San Diego, because Tucson is about five and a half hours away from San Diego. San Diego to San Francisco is another eight hours. And we stop at his friend’s place from high school, played on the baseball team there. And San Francisco, it’s my really first time in the city.
Kevin E:
So, we’re in these bay window apartments right near USF, and we’re on the lower level of that apartment. And I remember asking this guys like, “How much are you paying them?” And he’s like, “I’m paying $2,100 for this little lower level.” So I’m like, “Oh great.” He set this air mattress for us in the living room floor. How nice of him. And then there’s another mattress to the side. Oh great.
Kevin E:
So we’ve had a long road trip, we’re rehearsing, trying to do our elevator pitch, “Real Leaders, we reach 30,000 CEOs at 135 countries, who just had control of $6 trillion to spend.” Yeah. And we’re pretty tired. And I say, “Hey, Tuck, I need to sleep.” So I go into this bed, he goes into the air mattress, get all snuggled in and his roommate is studying for his test. And I got a text on my phone, he says, “Hey Kev, you’re in Cooper’s bed. I paid him $2,100, just sleep on a mattress in the living room floor.”
Kevin E:
So I got to move back over to the air mattress, which is of course halfway filled up and has a hole in it. So, slept on the floor that night and had to do 10 interviews the next day. But that’s living situations that we were in, and that’s the art of learning as you go. And so we did those 10 interviews at Impact Hub in San Francisco, went up the West Coast to Portland, Oregon, we went to Bend, Oregon, we went to Seattle Washington. We went to Vancouver, Washington, we went to the US Virgin Islands.
Kevin E:
And through that summer, we did about 30, 35 interviews with social entrepreneurs, CEOs, and any sustainable business that we get our hands on. And it really taught us a lot.
Warwick F:
So when you say social entrepreneur, what is a social entrepreneur?
Kevin E:
Yeah. Social entrepreneur to me is someone who’s intentionally trying to take on a social or environmental problem. And as they grow, as they scale, they’re able to solve that problem even further. I’ll give you an example. Example to me is someone who’s come on our show called Emma Rose Cohen. And she had a passion. She went to University of Santa Barbara, school on the coast.
Kevin E:
So there’s a ton of plastic everywhere, and said, “Why is this? Here I am trying to get this great education and we’re just polluting, throwing bottles everywhere. And it’s really getting into the waste streams. And we’ve all seen the image of the turtle and its nose.” And she said, “I want to end this problem,” and does some research, and the problem ends up being single use plastic. Plastic you use after one time, virgin plastic made from oils.
Kevin E:
So she goes out, she does this viral video, and this video, she throws onto a crowdfunding site, raises $1.8 million and is able to now diversify her product line for for-profit company, making the final product. These could be utensils, wipes, anything that you use one time to eliminate that consumer behavior of throwing away plastic into waste streams that affect our animals, our eco-systems, all of the above. So that’s a social entrepreneur, someone who’s solving also a business problem in a socially constructive way.
Warwick F:
Wow. So you and your buddy showed a lot of entrepreneurial spirit in college, you had this idea. And so, was this with Real Leaders? What was then the genesis of it, about doing interviews with social entrepreneurs? Is that partly how it happened?
Kevin E:
Yeah. Real Leaders at the time, the tagline was, Better Leaders For a Better World. And we focus a lot on diversity and inclusion. And so, hats off to our founder and our leadership team for letting us do this one. But we created a good product. I mean, it brought them viewership that they’d never had before online at the time. So-
Warwick F:
And these were video interviews that you were doing, so they didn’t have that, so you pitched the idea to them. And I mean, that took a lot of courage at that age, because they were looking for articles that sounds like… but you pitched them an idea that might work better with younger folks today. I mean, where do you find that courage and get up and go, spirit to do all of that? Because a lot of folks in college would not be thinking that, well, not even try.
Warwick F:
And then you go to get these interviews with folks, which is not always easy, you’re in college. How do all that happen? I mean, where do you get the get up and go, the courage to do all that?
Kevin E:
Yeah. I mean, it’s a good question. There’s no courage without fear. And so, I had a lot of fear just starting out, here I am, I don’t know a lick about business, but I just wanted to go out there and interview people. I had had a few prior experiences with interviewing people, I was that anchor of our high school news channel. So, I had some experience, but really it was just throwing ourselves out there and seeing what happens.
Kevin E:
And I think a lot of the leaders are those people as well. And I think they recognize people that are different, people that are trying to put themselves in an uncomfortable position and they recognize that. And so everyone that I was able to interview, obviously my terminology, my questions were probably horrible at the time, I probably thought they were good, but it may have not made any sense, but they were willing to work with me, and give me that time.
Kevin E:
So, that’s something that I really appreciated. And as you do more repetitions, that I’m sure you both have found, you get to be more comfortable, you learn little things along the way that you can’t research, things that just come up through continuous repetition. So, I’ve adopted that mentality in anything I do now, just knowing things are going to take a long time, and that’s something that school and anything else I don’t think could really teach us.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, I think you’re answering this, but maybe to other folks in college or young people starting out, one of the lessons you learned from that epic road trip up the West Coast and pitching an idea which… I mean, I had pitched one idea to you, but you pitched it back to him in a slightly different vein, they weren’t looking for the video series but you offered it to them. So, what are the lessons you would offer for college folks or young people that you learned from that whole experience.?
Kevin E:
Yeah. Business owners are more willing to give you their time versus their money. And so, I think it was a pretty easy sell for us to say, “Hey, give us 30 minutes of your time, and we’re going to talk about your career, career path, career advice for young social entrepreneurs, break these videos down, the one to three minutes and bring these success stories alive to inspire purposeful careers. Do you have a moment?” A lot of them did.
Kevin E:
And so, relentless emails, obviously we got rejected 100 times, but people are very willing, and especially people in the impact space, they need that recognition right now. So I think, we definitely fill the gap for them in terms of getting them some marketing material out there.
Warwick F:
So that was a wise strategy there that business owners is one thing but folks that want to have impact environmentally and socially, they want to get their environment out there. Here’s a couple of young guys, and you weren’t just talking about a whole long phone video, you’re talking of video clips, you’re probably a variety of different things that you could package it. So, that was pretty enterprising. So, as you go, maybe walk back and you mentioned… I’ve heard you grew up in the Portland area. Was there something in your background, parents or something that gave you this entrepreneurial courageous spirit? I mean, where does that sense of adventure come from?
Kevin E:
Well, my mother is the president of Real Leaders.
Warwick F:
Oh, okay.
Kevin E:
So, that’s how I was able to get that opportunity, which is very fortunate. And that’s the thing though, Warwick you work in a family business.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I’m pretty aware. Yeah.
Kevin E:
You don’t want to work for your mother. So, yeah. In terms of my background, I think for entrepreneurship, it really just started out with pressure washing and staining decks, doing something that was different. I mean, I was always very active, I was in student government in high school, I ran on community task force that we started, I was pitching in front of a court to get us more money for our non-profit at the time. And I was super young.
Kevin E:
So my parents always made me uncomfortable, always threw me into the fire. And I think my dad’s favorite quote is to make my life miserable, that’s his number one job. So, I always grew up in an uncomfortable setting and always had to persevere over a lot of different challenges, whether it was on the sports team, whether it was in family life, like anybody does, I would assume so.
Kevin E:
Yeah. But also maybe environmentally, yeah. Growing up in Oregon, you’re definitely… I mean, I didn’t realize I grew up in a forest until I moved to Tucson, Arizona. And yeah, I mean, definitely being a part of the environment, being close to Mount Hood, close to the beach, having forests to run around in, and I think definitely played a role in that as well.
Gary S:
As you tell that story. One of the things that leaps out to me, the very first thing you said to me when we did a call, a month or so ago now, first thing I wrote down on top of my paper, “Everyone has their own crucible.” Is what you said. And it sounds like what you were just describing. You had your own experiences, and the people that you talk to had their own crucible experiences. I mean, it’s as Warwick says, if you haven’t had one, check your watch, because in 15 minutes you might have one. But that’s a pretty profound statement for this show to say everyone has their own crucible.
Kevin E:
Yeah. I would agree on that. I mean, what Warwick is saying is completely true, and that’s really the crux of what has kept me going. Interviewing successful social entrepreneurs, CEOs, and you hear these stories about, “I didn’t have any meaning in my life. My kids didn’t recognize me anymore, I had this spear in the heart moment, where I was so focused on growth, and I just lost who I was.”
Kevin E:
You don’t hear these things all the time, and that’s why I think is so great about your show. And Crucible… I told Warwick on the show, it couldn’t be a better word, severe trials that lead the creation of something new. All of these people have had this career realization and needed to do something more meaningful that aligns with their intention. And so that’s what I’m trying to get out with our content, with our show and just out of these interviews as well. But I don’t think we do as good of a job as Crucible.
Warwick F:
No, you guys do awesome. Just one more beat on the background. I always love the backstory, it sounds like either or both of your parents, must’ve had some entrepreneurial spirit. I mean, your mom founding Real Leaders must have had something. But it also sounds like… I mean, I grew up in a very affluent background and sometimes people who have had some degree of success, they can cushion their children from… put them in little cotton balls, what have you.
Warwick F:
And it sounds like you were challenged, whether it’s athletically or what have you, I know we don’t get into all the details, but it sounds like there was somethings maybe they did right, in the sense of just challenging you and not just making… you know what I mean? They add some-
Kevin E:
Yeah. And again, everyone has their own crucible, and everyone is different. So, my mother did not found Real Leaders, she is now the president. She is married to the founder. Mark said… okay, it came up. But when I was growing up in high school, they weren’t together at the time, my mom actually didn’t have a job, she lost it during the economic recession. My parents are divorced.
Kevin E:
And I also had a lot of pain growing up with my brother, not going over to my father’s house growing up. So, I think it was really, like you said, Warwick in the show, that you got a reputation to hold, you didn’t want to go out, you want to be exposed. So that was who I felt had those expectations on me, a lot of pressure because of my older brother’s habits and reputation within the community.
Kevin E:
So, it was a pretty difficult upbringing, I didn’t really notice it as much at the time, as you grow up, you realize things aren’t okay. But I think that was definitely a crux for what made me go out there and try to be involved and show our community that, “Hey, look, the Edwards family can really contribute and be a big staple in this community as well.” To the teachers, to the faculty, to anyone that may be had heard different and we can make a change.
Kevin E:
And so, I don’t like to speak too much about my brother, because I know he’s going through a hard time right now, and he’s doing incredible things in terms of his recovery. So, but at that point in time, as we all know, family members that are struggling with addiction, it was very difficult to hold the family together and put on this face to friends and family members and coaches.
Warwick F:
We all have challenges in life, but for you, with your crucible experiences, it motivated you to go in a positive direction to contribute, to capture people’s stories of people doing good. I mean, again, we don’t need to talk more about background, but it sounds like all those experiences helped form your values and who you are and what motivates you. Is that a fair statement? Would you say?
Kevin E:
Yeah. I would think so. Yeah.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So let’s talk about, with Real Leaders and what you do. I think you’ve talked a bit about this, but what are you passionate about? What is who you say, this is my calling, this is Kevin Edwards’ calling. Because it sounds like… some people don’t know, but I’m guessing you’re one of these people that actually know, you have a sense of mission and calling in terms of what you do, would you say?
Kevin E:
Yeah. My intention is definitely to have the most meaningful conversations that transform lives. Gary, I told you I got one lines for a lot of different things, that’s it? And it actually comes from a lot of trying… I was trying to do a lot of why workshops, and really peel back those layers of what my north star may be. And it wasn’t until I read somewhere that maybe I should reach out to other people, to affirm actually who I am.
Kevin E:
So I wrote down my five statements, what makes me unique? What makes me unique? This, this, this and that. And I got a lot of funny things that come back, “Oh, it’s that deformity in your chest that sticks out, that’s what makes you unique.” “Oh, it’s your ability to have these conversations with people.” “Oh, it’s the trust that you’ve installed within our family and that you reach out to them.”
Kevin E:
So, all these things came together and I really realized that, at the core, it’s just that I like to have actual, meaningful conversations with people that will hopefully transform their lives. That’s what I find interesting. And I realized that because I eliminate everything else, I don’t watch a lot of Netflix, I don’t watch a lot of shows, I don’t go out and really do anything. I’m very focused. And I write down on my whiteboard every single week, that intention and how is that going to manifest in three different aspects of my life, in my work, in my family and with my friends.
Warwick F:
Wow. Meaningful conversations that transform lives. So it’s hard for me to think of something better than that. I mean, at a relatively young age to have your north star locked in. We spoke on your podcast that, is nothing wrong when you’re in your 50s or older, trying to figure out is life all about success? Is it about significance? And suddenly you’re living… and we define a life significance is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.
Warwick F:
Clearly, that’s what you do. I don’t mean to be flippant but you’ve got that box checked. I mean, what could be more of a life significance than having meaningful conversation to transform lives? So at a relatively young age, you’re already leading a life of significance. It can take some people in their 50s, 60s, it’s never too late. But as I often say, you don’t want to be on your death bed saying, “I think now’s a good time to turn the direction of my life.” Sooner is better.
Kevin E:
Absolutely. And I think for some people we tend to overthink things and we tend to try to be somebody that we’re not. Look, I mean, I did these interviews because I didn’t think I’d have a career in interviewing. I just didn’t really realize it was something that I naturally liked to do. And that just came very natural to me, and I really feels like I’m in that flow state when I’m doing them.
Kevin E:
And so, sometimes when we’re trying to think about our company, we’re trying to think about our why statements, it’s like being in the inside of that beer bottle. You’re in the inside, it’s nice inside, but on the outside is where the label is, and that’s why you need people to talk to, to tell you, “Hey, this is what makes you unique. This is how I see you.” And then where the overlay is I believe is where you truly can be living.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And by being so clear, that helps you ask great questions. I mean, a lot of business leaders, as I’ve mentioned, they don’t really think their action man, action women, they’re running a mile a minute, and it’s not so much they’re trying to be bad people, it’s so often, they’re not really in touch with their values, their beliefs, whatever that is, what they feel their calling is.
Warwick F:
I’ve done a fair amount of executive coaching in the past, and I’ll often ask this question that sounds flippant, but it’s not meant to be. I’ll say, “So tell me about your values and beliefs.” And, I mean, very few leaders will say, “Oh, I don’t have any.” I mean, you don’t get to be a leader without some foundations somewhere. And I’ll say, “Sir, to what degree do you feel like you’re living your values and your beliefs in your professional and personal life.”
Warwick F:
And sometimes you’ll hear, “You know what, there’s a bit of a disconnect to be honest. I don’t do enough reflection, I’m just too busy making decisions.” And then I’ll ask with a straight face, because as a coach, you’re non judgmental and I certainly try to be. So I say, “What would you like to do? Would you like to change your values and beliefs to better align with what you’re doing corporately and personally? Or would you like to change your personal and professional life to be in harmony with your values and beliefs?”
Warwick F:
And it’s pretty clear to me. I mean, most people, what are they going to say? “No, let me change my values and beliefs. Well, most sane people aren’t going to say that, but you have to ask that. And then, so I guess the point of the story is, using your words, by having meaningful conversations that help transform lives, just by asking that one question, what are your values and beliefs? To what degree do you think you’re living it?
Warwick F:
I’m just asking questions, I’m not judging them, they’re judging or assessing themselves. And so, using different language I feel like by asking questions, I’m sure what matters to you? What’s the goal of your organization? How do you feel that changes the world? Do you have any problems? Talk about your team. I mean, all the questions that I’m sure you would ask, that helps them to think and reflect. It helps your guests think, “We’re doing well, but could we do better? Not just in terms of profit, but in terms of our mission.” Does that make sense?
Warwick F:
Because that’s your way of thinking, you’re going to be asking questions that do transform lives. Good questions, help transform lives. Because I know long-winded response, but does that make sense in terms of what you do?
Kevin E:
Yeah. Absolutely. And really started out with those social entrepreneurs. So what’s actually been difficult for me is to go into this leadership realm maybe where you guys are and have these conversations about leadership, what are your values? How do you go in? Whereas I started out with, what’s your intention? What social or environmental problem are you trying to solve? How do you lead? How does that affect your employees? All of these different things.
Kevin E:
But I think your position is very unique, you’re almost like a therapist in some way. And I know from my podcasts, you never know who’s going to show up on the opposite side of that screen or next to you, they could be having a bad day. You could do all the research you want in them, but until they’re in front of you, you really don’t know who’s going to show up. So, I think what you do is a very special job and it definitely takes a special person to relate to them.
Gary S:
That’s one of the reasons why we say we try to go a certain amount of time, 45 minutes, but we let content not the clock dictate, because it’s just what you said, Kevin, you don’t know, not only who’s on the other side of the microphone, but you don’t know what their stories are going to be. One of the things that we try to do and you probably saw it on the form that we have all guests fill out, is we don’t want to know too much information, because to know everything… we’ve all been on podcasts where they ask you, here’s the 10 questions that I’m going to ask you, and it’s like, “Okay,” there’s no spontaneity there.
Gary S:
And with too much preparation, can come a degradation I think of the spontaneity that leads to those moments that you’re talking about. Those revelations… all of us have asked questions for a living, the best place to be is when someone says, “I haven’t heard that question before.” When I was a reporter, I once interviewed Dick Clark, and I asked Dick Clark, who on American bandstand for 40 years, it’s got a great beat and you can dance to it. That was his gig.
Gary S:
I asked him if he danced, and he said to me, “No one’s ever asked me that question.” I was flying for three weeks after that, the idea of being able to ask someone a question where you’re really paying attention, that’s the thing that makes what you’re doing, when you say that your focus is to ask questions that help change people’s lives. That’s part of the payoff, is listening and then responding in a way that offers a question that to your word, Kevin, is a bit of therapy sometimes.
Kevin E:
Definitely. Yeah, I’d agree. I think the best interviewers are the best listeners, no doubt. I also find myself trying to avoid the leadership. I like to just know who the people are. Are they funny? How do they react to certain questions? Are they super tight in business like this? They only talk in business terminology. So there’s all different types of people that come on the show.
Kevin E:
And yeah, I will say the interviews that I do prepare more for are the ones that are more formal and I don’t like as often, they’re not as free flowing. So yeah, it’s a tough balance, but again, doing so many interviews on the cuff with no preparation at conferences, just on the road with no preparation, being young, you have to get over that fear real early on and just trust yourself in those interviews. And I think that’s part of the reason why I’ve been able to stick with it.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And you said something earlier that I’m curious about. You started off doing social entrepreneurs and then this Real Leaders you also interview just regular business owners and executives. Talk about that difference, because I would imagine with the social entrepreneur, as you’re implying, you going to be cause-inspired person, you don’t become a social entrepreneur without this burning desire to make a difference in the world.
Warwick F:
I mean, you have to have that otherwise why would you do this? So, what differences have you found in interviewing regular leaders, for want of a better word versus social leaders or social entrepreneurs?
Kevin E:
Right. What is a real leader? We ask that question at the end of every show, right?
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Kevin E:
There’s not one definition, there’s not one right answer. So, I think the overlay between where we are is that crucible moment, is that career transition, because all the social entrepreneurs we’ve had on, had traditional careers, worked for big four, went to really good schools and had that again, that spear in the chest moment. So, that’s where we started.
Kevin E:
I’m always trying to push myself and push those boundaries to say, “Hey, let’s get someone on Paul Stamets, a mycologist.” I interviewed this… I don’t know if you know who this is, Akon, he’s an artist, he’s a big time performer.
Gary S:
Yeah.
Kevin E:
Yeah. I interviewed him a couple of times, let’s stretch my experience out to those levels. Doctors, those are the hardest. To speak on their level is very difficult. Gone to the opiod epidemic. I’ve covered a lot of different people. So I always try and stretch myself. The process is very much the same, but with those interviews, you just got to listen a little bit harder.
Warwick F:
So when you think of your ideal, Real Leader guest, what is it you’re looking for in a guest?
Kevin E:
I’m not looking for anything. And I hate… I know that sounds cliche like, “Oh, he doesn’t really mean that.” No, I used to look for something. I used to look for that person that I could really see in myself, but the more people you have on the show, the more you realize just how different everybody is, their backgrounds, where they come from, how they see the world, and the impact economy. The CEOs are not your stereotypical CEOs, they’re really not.
Kevin E:
They’re not timestamped… I mean, they are timestamped, but they’re not pushy, they’re very genuine people. If you went to an Impact, and I’d invite you both to our Impact Awards, if you go to this awards conference, you’ll see people in plaid shirts with patagonia vests on, the type of quirky people who are all multi-millionaires and CEOs, but just have an appreciation for the outdoors, for people, for what they’re actually doing.
Kevin E:
And I’ll never forget one of my first… not one of my first interviews, but one of my first years of doing it, I asked this guy a question, waste farmers, “What do you do?” And he was taken back by that actually, almost offended. He was like, “That question, what do you do? It’s not a good question.” We tend to, as society really break things down into one sentence or one thing about what we do, who we are, we put labels on things. That’s not what we do.
Kevin E:
So, had a long with an answer for why they’re doing what they’re doing. And I’ll tell you, that was the last time I ever asked somebody. What do you do? That’s for sure.
Warwick F:
I’m tempted. Did you ask him, so what would have been a better question or? I’m curious to know, what is it? Who are you? Or what do you value? I wonder what his ideal question would be.
Kevin E:
Just tell me how you got into this.
Warwick F:
Okay.
Kevin E:
How are you doing what you’re doing? This waste farmers, you’re collecting the soil to regenerate the soil. Why is that important? Where’s the money in this? And then he started to peel back what he actually does, but I think sometimes as interviewers, we don’t do a good enough job of asking the right questions. We ask a lot of cliche questions. I’m a culprit of it, we all are. And it’s really just trying to dig a little bit deeper and listen to them a little bit harder, which again, I think you hit the nail on the head earlier on.
Warwick F:
Yeah. It’s interesting. So it sounds like, you’re not just about interviewing your average corporate leader, Real Leaders and I love that tagline at the end, keep it real. I’m assuming you want to know the real person, what makes them tick, their values, their passions, what drove them to do what they do. You don’t want just to hear a spreadsheet, you want to hear who is the person? Is that a fair assessment of what you’re trying to achieve?
Kevin E:
Absolutely. And I think, I don’t personally have a definition for what a real leader is. I think it’s someone that can create these meaningful connections, and if enough people are connected, then inherently you can have a movement. But what is real is what is imperfect to me. And I’ve really realized that, here we are looking at all of us, we’re wearing blazers, why are we wearing blazers? We’re in our home.
Gary S:
I at least have a t-shirt on.
Kevin E:
So, what is imperfect? And I think in Crucible Leadership, you have to lower your guard, you have to be vulnerable, you have to be yourself. And in today’s day and age, to be that next generational leader, you’ve really got to connect with people in a personal way, because everyone’s on their phones, everyone knows who you are, especially people and millennials, they really want those connections with those leaders and want you to recognize them as well as a human being.
Gary S:
And one of the things that we didn’t realize, or that we were worried about when Warwick started the show, was okay, people don’t talk about failure, much. That was our organizing construct. And then we sat down and said, “Where are we going to find guests? If people don’t talk about failure much.” And Warwick is unique because he talks about his failure and setback, with the takeover bid that didn’t work, “How are we going to find guests who here’s the beautiful thing that we found?”
Gary S:
It’s not been easy to find guests, but it’s been not nearly as hard as it was. And the thing that we discovered that’s so great about it, is that regardless of what the circumstances of the crucible may be, as I’ve said, not many people have lost 150 year old media company at a price of 2.25 billion with a B, which is 4.7 billion in today’s money, but we don’t go there often.
Gary S:
Not many people have done that circumstantially, but emotionally, those crucibles feel the same way. And that’s where the realness… when I think of Real Leaders, that’s one of the things we’ve discovered in doing this show, is that it takes a real leader to come on this show and talk about their most painful setback and how they bounced back from that and how they’re living life now with their eye on their legacy and a life of significance.
Warwick F:
It is amazing. We’ve interviewed a very diverse group, diverse in terms of gender, background, race, as well as type of crucibles, everything from abuse to business failure, marriage, physical injury, Parkinson’s, Navy seal who is paralyzed at a training accident, every crucible you can think of. And they all have something in common, they refuse to lie down and just while away the next 30, 40, 50 years of their life, they often lean into their crucible.
Warwick F:
Like the Navy seal I mentioned, I think I mentioned on your podcast, who lives in San Diego, or I think you mentioned, ended up becoming exec director of this clinic for vets that has some of the top technology anywhere in the country. Well, he’s using his pain again it’s an oft used phrase for a purpose. So, all of these folks we’ve interviewed, there’s commonality amongst all of them. I mean, a lot of the time I’ll say, “Well, almost apologize because what I went through financially was devastating and my sense of self and self-esteem was devastating, but I feel like… well, I wasn’t physically abused, I didn’t become a paraplegic, almost, well, my crucible is not nearly at the level that you went through.”
Warwick F:
And all these people when I say that, will say, “Your worst experience is your worst experience.” They don’t judge you, it’s not like a competition who has had the worst life. They don’t judge you, all these people. And we’ve interviewed 50 plus, so there’s some commonality in this and I feel it’s fascinating. And obviously your podcast is called Real Leaders, but yeah, I sense some of what you do is similar, I think you’ve mentioned off-air, about trying to align people’s skills with their values, helping people before they get stuck.
Warwick F:
I mean, some of the language and thoughts you have, there’s some similarities, don’t you think in terms of what your heart is for the leaders you talk with?
Kevin E:
Yeah. Plenty. And I’m actually developing a new course right now called Impact RX, and the impact prescriptions for… I guess our dream customer is 28 to 36 year olds who are what we say are stuck in career paralysis. So the impact prescription is a cure for that paralysis and breaking down that impact in the six different things, intention, model, profitability, accountability, customers’ transformation, impact as a course, a lesson for people that really feel unstuck, but also Warwick.
Kevin E:
There’s so many crossovers, as we found out today. But another one I think is this, success versus significance. But for us it’s short-term versus long-term. If you’re someone who wants to have a significant life, you’re not thinking about the short term right here now, you’re thinking about the longterm. So for these impact organizations, they’re thinking seven generations down the line, will our kids be able to live in this planet?
Kevin E:
You know what I’m saying? When the price of oil increases and distribution costs go up, what’s that going to do for our economy? Let’s focus on local now. So there’s a lot of world problems that I’ve been exposed to through these interviews, poverty, no hunger to health and wellbeing, the SEGs, water shortage, again, the opioid crisis, mycelium decline with the roots of fungi. All of these different things.
Kevin E:
These leaders are taking a stance, they’ve found their purpose, they’ve aligned it with this intention, and they’re thinking in the long-term and ways to solve these problems. That’s why I find it so fascinating.
Warwick F:
What I find encouraging is, some folks talk about, well first part of my life, I’m going to be successful, then I’ll have enough money, maybe I’ll have enough money to start a nonprofit or join a few nonprofit boards. I think that I can do that in my 50s or so, but in the meantime, I’ll work my way up to be partner or whatever it is.
Warwick F:
And I don’t think it’s an either or, and I try not to be judgmental, but I have a different perspective. I think all of life should be significant from grade school or frankly your earliest memory on. You can have a life of significance in elementary school, you don’t have to wait until you’re 40, 50, 60, and you’ll have to make choices. It doesn’t mean to say that you leap off the partner track at your law firm or your business.
Warwick F:
But maybe just to pick law for an example, maybe you’re a lawyer, and maybe I’d like to get into environmental law or a nonprofit law. Well, maybe you might not make as much money as you would in corporate or tax. Maybe I used part of this example on your podcast, but… and it’s not a right or wrong decision, just be intentional. Maybe it’s part of what you’re… how does it align with your values? If you feel like, no, I honestly feel like I can make a big impact in the corporate area by meeting with some of these CEOs and having a discussion and meaningful discussions that impact others, you can make a case for that, but do it because you’re being intentional.
Warwick F:
And if you say, “Look, I’m going to make a lot less money being a non-profit pro bono lawyer for folks that can’t afford it,” so long as that’s your decision, that’s not a wrong decision, if that’s what you want to do, maybe your parents might not understand, maybe your friends might have a bit of doubt what you want to do. So-
Kevin E:
No Warwick, I want to hit on this point, I want to keep going on this point, because what I’ve found is, everyone says, “Well, do what you love, do what you love,” I don’t really like that quote as much, but I will say work no matter what you do does give you a purpose.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Kevin E:
So when you think about where I was at that time, interviewing all these social entrepreneurs, hearing their stories of these crucible moments, like, “I was 40 years down the line and my kids and wife left me, because I was so focused on growth.” We shouldn’t be doing this. So you hear these stories and you think about that inception point about when people are actually going to start their work.
Kevin E:
And we have these career fairs where people come in, they flash all these shiny objects at you, come work for my company, we’ve got beer on Friday or come work for my company, we’ve got this cool office. It’s not the way to go at all. So I think we’ve got a big problem here on our hands and I’m glad that we’re talking about today.
Warwick F:
I’m glad that with your new course and other things that, that’s on your heart, because as we’ve said before, you don’t want to be on the death bed going, “Boy, I blew it, my kids don’t know me, that I’ve had all these issues in their life.” And, you don’t get that life back. Yeah, I mean, I’ve said a lot of things I’ve done wrong, but because I grew up in such a large wealthy family in media business and was around ambassadors, prime ministers, even folks from Hollywood, my mother was incredible at throwing parties, even Hollywood folks would come out and say, “Boy, Lady Mary Fairfax throws parties on a level that we’re not used to, even in Hollywood.”
Warwick F:
So, she had not so much because of the money, but she had a sense of style, and she was actually on the top 10 best dressed women in the world list way back in the day. So, she was quite something. So I got to meet all these folks and I just saw… lot of them just had empty lives and their kids, and I never wanted to be that person, so I was fortunate I could spend time with my kids who are now all in their 20s.
Warwick F:
And what’s interesting and something for everybody to think about on birthdays or what have you, we write cards, we say what we most value about the person whose birthday is, it’s just a tradition we’ve done for many years. And my boys who are the more athletic ones in my family, every single time, they’ll say, “Well, dad, you’re always there at our soccer game at tennis game, you were there. For many, many years, they’ve said that, I can’t tell you how much that means to me.
Warwick F:
So all that’s to say, I mean my whole brand, if you will is about all the screw ups and the stupid decisions I’ve made, so if anybody wants to know all the dumb things I have done, go to crucibleleadership.com and you’ll hear all the bad, stupid idiotic stuff.
Gary S:
Hey you’re doing my job telling people to go to crucibleleadership.com.
Warwick F:
You don’t want to be that young guy, that young woman with the divorce, with the kids that hate you because you were never there. Oh you’re doing well. But, I don’t know, to me this is a judgemental moment coming up on. If you’re going to get married and have a family, honor that. If you don’t want to spend time with your kids and wife or husband, then don’t get married, don’t have kids. But if you make that social contract, it’s all as to say, as you get the idea, is life’s about choices, is having that whole life where you feel good about what you do, you’re not abandoning.
Warwick F:
I mean, some people even abandon their families for the so-called good cause. I personally don’t believe in that philosophy myself. I think you can do both, you can be successful and significant, you can work on a good cause and have a decent family. So anyway, I guess that’s a bit of a discussion, but does that make sense? I guess, I focus, especially on young people, getting these points, don’t go for the shiny object even if the shiny object is couched in some socially, good goal, is great, but you don’t have to sacrifice your whole, you can do both, you can do good and have a good family.
Kevin E:
Well, guess who’s a big factor in that job decision, as a college student, “Hey mom, dad, I just got this job offer today, what do you think?” Parents are a big influence. And so all the parents listen to this right now, out there. What I went through was difficult, and Gary, this is actually what we talked about before the show, and this was… I had this career with Real Leaders and I took this pay cut to go work for them.
Kevin E:
I got offered a few other different jobs in Chicago, again, the shiny objects, high paying salaries. And I took this job because I knew when I was working at an insurance company the year before, big insurance company, that I’d go home after that work day and focus on Real Leaders on those interviews. And I knew that this is probably what I wanted to do for a long time. And a lot of people don’t have that.
Kevin E:
And so, when I joined and Warwick, I think we’re actually, we’re more similar than you think. When I joined my mother and stepfather’s company, my father did not respect it. And so I was back home in college or from college after I graduated living with him, trying to tell him about the excitement, what I’m telling you guys, and I was just over the head. And here’s a guy that was at my football games every time, was my biggest supporter growing up. And for the first time in my life, when something that I really liked and really wanted to do, there’s zero support, no questions, nothing. And that was very difficult. that was probably my crucible moment.
Kevin E:
Taking a step back and going, “All right, got to make a decision here, got to do what I love or succumb to this pressure with my father and potentially damage the relationships.”
Gary S:
And not pursue the purpose that you felt you were being called to. I mean, you felt your soul come alive as you were doing those interviews.
Kevin E:
Yeah, definitely. And since then, it’s actually pushed me to go harder and harder and further and further. And since then now, he’s come on board, and it’s just in the best thing, and he’s my guy, I go to now to have those conversations that I can’t have with my mother and my stepdad because they are my business partners. So it created this interesting dynamic where we’re now closer over here on this forefront, and I’m closer with my mother and stepfather on this side, because we interact every day about the business. So, it’s this interesting parallel, but it took a lot of time in love and nurturing and it’s still a tough process. Let me tell you,
Warwick F:
I want to just focus on what you just said because listeners will be everywhere from 20s through 60s or beyond, the courage that… and I’m serious about this, the courage that Kevin had, it’s easy, I mean, you’re obviously somebody that’s bright, that is focused in any corporate career, you’re going to get it done, do incredibly well and you go up the ladder, because you’re focused, driven, those are the things that corporate CEOs and vice presidents, that’s what they want when they’re looking for folks to fill the pipeline of the best and brightest and high achievers or whatever else human resources is calling it.
Warwick F:
So you could have done that and been very successful. I have no doubt. But yet you chose to follow the calling in your heart. And to me, the road less traveled you picked from my perspective, the right choice. Why is it right? Because it was true to who you were. And any time you pick a calling or a profession that’s true to who your inner values, your inner calling, this still small voice, whatever you want to call it, deep within you, being true to yourself is always right. That’s always the right call.
Warwick F:
So as you can tell, other young people this, you can save them a lot of misery. And yeah, I mean an ideal world would have supportive parents. And in my case, it wasn’t so much that they were not supportive, is just, as I mentioned on your podcast, it’s growing up in the Royal family, for me not to go into the family business, it would have devastated my father, I would have crushed him, I mean, I couldn’t have done it because… and the thing is having a media or a newspaper in which you’re trying to uplift society, wasn’t like it’s such a bad mission, it just wasn’t my mission.
Warwick F:
But again, I’m not perfect with my own kids, I’m hyper-focused on not telling them what to do, I want them to live into their gifting and calling, but I don’t care what they do, I don’t care what they earn, so long as they’re happy. Now sometimes… I don’t know if I’ve mentioned on the podcast, maybe I have, it will come back to bite you. Faith is important to me and faith is important to all of my kids.
Warwick F:
Well, my daughter is the fearless entrepreneur, if you will, and I don’t quite know where she gets those genes, but I wouldn’t call myself fearless at all. But she said to us one time, “Well, I got this opportunities to work with Samaritan’s Purse, a fantastic faith-based aid organization. Anywhere there’s poverty or turmoil in the world, like in Iraq, when Mosul was being seized, and that whole deal, they were out there giving people food and water outside Mosul with the refugees leaving. I mean, that’s about as dangerous a place on the planet at the time, a number of years ago. So they really out there, I admire what they do.
Warwick F:
So she said, “Well, I’ve been given the opportunity to have an internship in the Congo,” it was a very dangerous place. And then a year or so later, fast forward, South Sudan, again, one of the most poorest nations in the world, and there’s been turmoil forever for a variety of reasons. Well, what are you going to say? No? And she was over 21, so no wouldn’t have helped. Where people will faced those… it’s not like we disagree with her mission, not that it matters, we agree with the mission, how can you say no? I mean, because you’d be a hypocrite.
Warwick F:
She’s doing what she believes in, and the icing on the cake is you happen to believe in it too. You just wish it wasn’t so dangerous. So I don’t know. I mean, it can come back to bite you when you try and live this out, but all in all, it is a good philosophy for parents, and I want them to really hear what Kevin has said is, support your kid’s calling, forget about the numbers and the career, and if they do what they love, it’ll sort itself out.
Warwick F:
So your parents need to hear that, and those in their 20s, they just need to have the courage to, I don’t mean to reject your parents, but just do what you feel you’re called to. Does that make sense?
Kevin E:
Yeah. And the young adults need to listen too, they need to know they cannot reject your parents’ opinions and thoughts.
Warwick F:
Right.
Kevin E:
That’s another thing it took a long time for me to learn and say, “They’re right about a lot of different things.”
Warwick F:
Well, that’s true. I mean, there are some folks, that anybody that’s older than 40 by definition must be wrong. Well, sometimes you can learn from other people’s mistakes, they’re mentoring, how do you do things? In my younger days… I mean, it’s easy when you’re young to get into this, I’m going to share my truth throw in the hand grenades and machine guns, and I’m speaking my truth.
Warwick F:
Well, you can speak your truth, but try and do it a little bit more diplomatically first, you don’t only have to go in there all guns blazing. No. That’s typically a mistake early on that you learn later on. But-
Gary S:
I’m going to show that I listened to my parents when I was younger, that if I had something to say that I thought was relevant to a conversation, to say it, and that is, I believe that the sound we heard was the captain turning on and fastening seatbelt sign, it’s about time to land the plane. Not quite yet. We have a couple more things we need to do. The first thing, Kevin, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to let our listeners know how they can find out more about the Real Leaders podcast, about Real Leaders, about you.
Kevin E:
Yeah. Appreciate Gary. Yeah. Real Leader podcast, it’s on every listening platform, Apple, Spotify, YouTube. Just search Real Leaders podcasts, and you’ll find it, it’s a red logo, it’s Real Leader with Kevin Edwards. You can also find more information at real-leaders.com. It’s real-leaders.com. Also, if any of you listening out there, are impact organizations right now, we’ve got an impact awards going on right now, we do a great job of again, bringing those companies that are in the dark into the spotlight, through our publication, through all of our media resources and many of the CEOs come on the show as well.
Kevin E:
So that’s another outlet. And then of course, the course is launching here fully available for everybody online in June.
Gary S:
Awesome. I’ve got one more question and then I’m going to go back to Warwick. But you said something Kevin, in the form that we had you fill out that, and the question is one that we ask everybody, what in your professional estimation are the key principles and tangible action steps that can help people in the midst of a crucible move beyond it. And this is your response, and I’d love you to unpack it a little bit, because I think to Warwick’s point, we try to offer hope to people here. And I think what you say here offers a lot of-
Kevin E:
Yeah, please remind me what I said.
Gary S:
You say, “Understand who you are, where you want to go.” And I love this line, “And whatever gets in the way becomes the way.” Unpack that a little bit for folks.
Kevin E:
Right. Yes. The obstacle is the way. So if things are roadblocks in your life, let’s take for instance a relationship that you need to patch up, give that person a call. If your room is messy, clean it up. If there’s things that you are not getting done for your organization, get it done, stay disciplined, and you’re going to find that life is going to be a lot easier for you.
Kevin E:
So, I think anything that comes in the way we recognize that, and a lot of the times we think of it as a bad thing when reality it’s exactly what we have to do. So, you understand who you are and then the obstacle is the way. Absolutely.
Warwick F:
Wow. I mean, that is so profound. That’s very Crucible Leadership like, that the-
Gary S:
It’s also very stoicism-like, are you a big fan of The Stoics because I’ve… yeah.
Kevin E:
Yeah. It’s Marcus Aurelius, yeah.
Warwick F:
Yeah. We had somebody on the podcast actually, was it Joe Badaracco and there was Step Back… was it in that book? I think he mentioned that. He was also in the movie Gladiator, at least his character was. Marcus-
Gary S:
Not Joseph Badaracco, but-
Warwick F:
No, Marcus Aurelius the emperor of Rome.
Gary S:
Right. Yeah.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So-
Kevin E:
Here’s the caveat of that, is the part we don’t talk about, is the part you have to eliminate. What are those toxic relationships in your life? What are those things that are taking away time from you? Netflix, HBO, alcohol, drugs, staying inside. Those are the difficult things, and those are the obstacles. We’ve got to avoid those and eliminate those from our lives and eliminate everything that isn’t in our intention, that isn’t going to get to where we’re going. And again, we’re all human, we’re all flawed, it’s not going to be perfect, but just realizing those things when they happen, I think is half the battle.
Warwick F:
Wow. That’s very profound. What gets in the way becomes the way. That’s what we say on Crucible Leadership that sometimes crucible experiences they can be clarifying, maybe it’s, I should never do this again, or coming out of your pain, can be a purpose, like the Navy seal, I mentioned he was paralyzed and now has a clinic in San Diego. I mean, that’s really the core of Crucible Leadership.
Warwick F:
I guess maybe one last question is, if you interviewed a whole stack of people on Real Leaders, what would you say is the biggest lesson that you’ve learnt from interviewing all this people?
Kevin E:
Biggest lesson learned. I think is the one I shared earlier, is that you never know who’s going to show up on the opposite side. All of our guests have had amazing lessons that they’ve shared along the show, and there’s always something you can take away from every single interview. But I think really just for me personally, is just, you can do all the research you want, you can do all the preparation you want, but you really don’t know who is going to show up on the opposite side. So I hope today’s interview was good for you guys and being the guest this time around.
Warwick F:
No, absolutely. It was fantastic.
Kevin E:
I had a great time, I really enjoyed it.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Gary S:
And I’ve been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word has been spoken on a subject. And that was it. The plane is indeed on the tarmac, on the runway on whatever it is they land. I get this wrong all the time, because I’m just not an aviation guy. But, before we go, I usually do some takeaways and I wrote three down. And then the more we talked, I’m like, well, we emphasize on this one a lot. So I’m going to stick to one takeaway for you today, listener from our conversation today, and that is something Kevin said and something Kevin’s lived, we call it a Crucible Leadership soul work, but it’s finding out what your unique gifts and passions are.
Gary S:
Kevin arrived at what he calls his north star, and what Warwick called when he was talking about it as his calling, by doing that soul work, asking others what made him unique, taking a hard look at his skills and vision, and it led him to his life’s purpose. Having meaningful conversations that change lives. Ask yourself with input from others what’s yours? What’s your purpose? And then get after it, because that is in Crucible Leadership language, your life of significance.
Gary S:
Thank you listener for spending time with us today. If you enjoyed this conversation with Kevin Edwards, we would ask you to subscribe to the podcast for sure, but share it with your friends, post it on social media, let people know about it because the more people who know about it, and Kevin is a great example of this. He drove all over the country, interviewed social entrepreneurs, sleeping on holey air mattresses, and now he’s got a podcast with a large platform where he is making a difference. So as you share it with people, it helps us get more people exposed to the content here. And if you like the content here, hopefully you’ll want to see that happen.
Gary S:
So until the next time we’re together, we ask you to remember this, the crucibles in your life are real, they’re painful, they hurt, they can knock you off your feet, but they are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles, the beginning of a new chapter in your story, and that new chapter can be the best chapter in your story, because where it’s going to lead to when the last period is put on the last page, is what we call a life of significance.
John Sikkema had it all. Except peace. Having carved out successful careers in insurance sales and finance, he felt in his 40’s that his life was careening out of control. Soon his car was, too. It was the combination of the accident he was surprised he survived, and the damage his obsession with making money was doing to his marriage and his faith, that led him to something better than the bottom line. When he heard a message at church about pursuing a greater purpose, one that involved serving others, he began a journey to the kind of joy money absolutely cannot buy. Today, as chairman of Halftime Australia, an executive coaching and mentoring organization, he helps other business leaders build lives of significance in the next act of their careers.
To learn more about John Sikkema and Halftime Australia, visit www.halftime.org.au. The organization also has a U.S. branch: www.halftime.org
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond The Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
John S:
I’d become a workaholic at that point and was working 80 hours a week and I had all the trappings of success. I built a beautiful architect home overlooking a beach and a golf course out of convict bricks. I had a beach house at Orford an hour from Hobart on the beach. I had the BM and I had four kids at private school and I was running and jogging every couple of days. Life looked pretty cool on the outside. I’m a CEO, the largest shareholder. I’m churchgoing. I looked really good, but cracks started appearing and the wheels started falling off.
Gary S:
It would turn out that it wasn’t just John Sikkema’s life that was careening out of control. Soon his car was too, and it was the combination of the accident he was surprised he survived and the distance his obsession with making money put in his marriage and his faith that led to his putting the wheels back on in a meaningful way. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. In this conversation with Warwick, John talks in detail about how chasing the wrong things brought him material wealth, but also brought him low. Then a message he heard at church about pursuing a greater purpose, one that involves serving others, led him to find joy that money absolutely could not buy. Today, as chairman of Halftime Australia, an executive coaching organization, he helps other business leaders build lives of significance in the next act of their careers.
Warwick F:
Well, John, thank you so much for being here. I’ve enjoyed getting to know you and loved reading your book. I mean, it’s just so… it’s really inspiring and so much of what we talk about in Crucible Leadership and you really model this. You’ve lived this. Tell us a bit about the backstory. I know you were born in Holland and came to Australia and in Tasmania and life was not exactly easy when you first came out. There was some adjustments. Tell us a bit about just growing up in Tasmania and just that transition as a five-year old boy to Tasmania.
John S:
It was quite a transition. One of the things I remember was it age five going to school and my mum liked making homemade clothes and not only couldn’t I speak the language, but I had clothes that looked different than all the other children. I can remember when I look back it now, I was quite a shy boy growing up when I look back on it. But certain things I was prepared to speak up against and I said to my mum when I came home from school, “Mum, I’m not wearing homemade clothes anymore. You’re going to have to buy me the same clothes as everybody else. Another thing is, I don’t want you to speak Dutch at home anymore. I want you to speak English because otherwise we’ll never learn the language here.” First five years we were here, my mum cried almost every day. My dad had spent five years in America during the war. He was in the merchant Navy and his vessel was blown up and he was some of the few that escaped in a lifeboat and was picked up by a American destroyer called Rodney and ended up in South Africa. Then they went to America and he stayed there for the whole war. When he came back to Holland, his mum had died while he was away.
John S:
But one of the funny things that I remember is my brother. I’ve got two brothers. I’ve got a younger brother and a younger sister. My younger brother is called Franklin Rodney and my sister is called Eleanor. It was the Roosevelt’s that were in power at this time and the boat that picked my dad up was a destroyer called Rodney. I’ve got a bit of a connection with you Gary that it made me feel a little bit remote and my dad wanted to migrate to America after the war. The problem was my mum didn’t want to go. She turned on the waterworks and my dad had to tear up the immigration papers to America because he loved the US. Mum had some relatives in Australia, so he wanted to get out of war-torn Europe after the war, so we ended up… He represented some papers to my mother to come to Australia and my mum finally said, “This guy is never going to give up.” She said, yes, but we ended up in Tasmania on a dirt road in a place called Blackmans Bay, which today is not politically correct apparently.
John S:
Anyway, the funny thing was, it wasn’t really funny, my mum, she came from the prosperous part of Holland in a place called Groningen and when they were… she would go down the street to buy meat, she would go into the butcher and they’d be flies around the butchery shop and the meat was wrapped in newspaper. My mum would be tearing her hair out and saying, “What has happened? Why have I done this? Why have I been taken to this remote island called Tasmania?” There’s some of my early memories, but the other memory I had was because my parents didn’t have a lot of money, I started my own business probably at about 10 years of age doing paper rounds. I do joke a little bit tongue in cheek, at age 14 I was financially independent because I was doing a paper round every morning. I was up at sort of quarter to 6:00, 5:30 and on the Saturday night they had a Melbourne Herald delivered and the Saturday Evening Mercury in Tasmania. I’d do that on Saturday night and sell in pubs and round the street.
John S:
Then there was a golf course across the road that I would go. I used to caddy for four hours back then for 60 cents. I soon realized that if I spent four hours looking for golf balls, I could earn $2. I retired from caddying at 14 and became a illegal professional golf ball finder and the… because it was illegal so I had to run around and I was pretty nimble and fast. There was a guy there that used to look out for people like me, but I never got caught. But the thing too is I found that I could sell them for $2 to the pro, but I also found that if I cut out the middleman, the pro, and hid under a bridge by a river where people hit the ball in, I could sell them for $3 and I got a 50% pay increase so I cut out the middle man. That was my survival instinct as a boy growing up in Tasmania. Anyway, that’s just a bit of a backstory.
Warwick F:
That is a fascinating story. I’m just curious, do you ever ask your dad how come my siblings got American political names, the name of a ship? What about John? Do you ever say, what about me? What was the deal with it?
John S:
The interesting thing too, I forgot to tell that little bit, my name’s not John. My name is Jan. Because I don’t know what your parents were called Warwick, but three generations it was Jan. My grandfather was Jan. My dad was Jan. I was Jan. That was the other problem. When I went to school in Australia and I know you get teased a bit in America with Warwick name, as opposed to Warwick. I got teased, because in Australia, a girl’s name is J-A-N.
Warwick F:
Jan.
John S:
Yes. I can remember going to the Royal Hobart Hospital and I had to have an operation on my arm and the nurse would call out at the top of her voice. This was a public ward and she would yell out at the top of the voice Jan Sikkema and it sounded, Jan Sikkema and it sounded like a girl. Everyone would be looking around for a female and I would sheepishly have to get up and say, “That’s me.” I made an executive decision also in grade one to change my name from Jan to John Sikkema. I’m actually not really John Sikkema. I’m actually Jan Sikkema, but in this day and age I would probably get away with it and get sympathy. But in those days they didn’t have foreigners in Tasmania. I was one of the few there so it was very awkward. I had to stand up for myself at a very early age and make-
Warwick F:
Oh my God.
John S:
… some decisions. Anyway.
Warwick F:
Boy, that’s amazing. Obviously coming out from Holland life wasn’t easy. You write in your book that where you lived wasn’t this tremendous house on the cliff or which you ended up years later. It was pretty tough. But right from the beginning you just had this hunger to make something of yourself, to succeed and I know you did a number of different jobs, traveled around Australia. But you ended up landing with insurance and you tried a couple of things and work for, what was the insurance company, National-
John S:
National Mutual, which eventually-
Warwick F:
… National-
John S:
… became ING.
Warwick F:
Right. Then you met your wife, Sue, just before that, but she’s from Tasmania too, but you went over there. Talk about some of those early days, recently married, working in insurance. That was sort of the first step on the road to your career in a sense.
John S:
Well, one of the things I found in Australia to get accepted was to play sport as a Dutch person.
Warwick F:
Right.
John S:
I took up Aussie rules, which we call real football. For your American audience we play on a ground that is twice as big with twice as many players and we have to run twice as long, so don’t feel bad about this. We don’t wear pads at all Gary.
Gary S:
And that makes us half as good then.
John S:
Look-
Warwick F:
I mean-
John S:
… I wouldn’t draw that inference, but you might. But the interesting thing was I did year 11 here, which you do before you go to university. My dad said, “John, if you go to university, you need to give up sport.” Now, that was waving a red rag to a bull, and I’m a bit of an ADD person anyway. It was a pretty easy decision not to go to university so I went into banking and finance and I always had an interest in that. I realized at age 23 that I was going really well in my career in the business world, but I had to go and study accountancy eight years part-time. I did the maths on that and I thought if I went into selling, I might be able to get ahead. I realized, so I quit that and went into a selling role and I doubled my income by learning to cold call in Melbourne, selling insurance out of the phone book, just making cold calls.
Warwick F:
Talk about how you didn’t start at the front of the phone book. You had a different strategy, which I thought was quite creative.
John S:
Well, one of the things I’ve learned is try and work where you don’t have competition. Why would you go where there’s a lot of competition? I thought, I think I’ll go to the Ws in the phone book. I won’t start at the very back, but I’ll go close to the back. I’ll go to the Ws and which would be the phone book pages people would dislike the most, would probably be the Williams’s because there was thousands of them. I went to the W in the phone book and I ended up selling quite a few policies because… and nearly 90% of my clients were in the Ws. I had a filing cabinet for the files and they were nearly all in the Ws. I was shocked when the sales manager read out the sales results and there were a lot of big talkers in this team of 20 salespeople and when he read out the sales results after six months, I was the number two salesperson.
John S:
What really quite surprised me, I just had a plan of working where I didn’t have competition, which I remember I used to work with young new policeman and nurses working in the mental hospitals where a lot of the other financial advisors or insurance salesman didn’t go. But I found after a while, I got bored with that. But I did become the top salesman out of 300 salesmen in Victoria, principally by cold calling and having good working habits and maybe being prepared to do what other people weren’t prepared to do and just have a good habit, a good plan and stick at it. I found I got a bit bored with that and after a while I found I really loved business. I could help people who were in partnerships. I used to call them accountants who are partnership kings. They often themselves were in the company in the family trust, but they left all their small business people in a partnership.
John S:
I would find people paying 20,000 a year tax back then and I could say, “I can show you how you only pay 10,000 tax a year instead of 20 by putting you into a company in a family trust and you can put $10,000 into super.” In those days there was a company called Occidental Life who had a great super policy with a 5% admin fee and they paid 65% of premium as a commission and paid a renewal fee.
Warwick F:
Just for US listeners, superannuation is the equivalent of pension funds here, that kind of thing, right?
John S:
Yep.
Warwick F:
Keep going..
John S:
I was able to double my income again. I set up 35 companies and family trusts in one year because my average policy size went from $500 a year or 1,000, this is a long time ago, to about 5,000 or $6,000 a year.
Warwick F:
You were doing really well, but at some point you decided, I don’t want to work for somebody else. I want to work for myself. I mean, a lot of people wouldn’t do that because I mean, how many small businesses survive? I mean, the odds are probably not high, but yet you’ve never been one to shy away from a challenge. You said, “This is fine, but I want to go out on my own.” Talk about that decision. It was a big decision at that time I’m sure.
John S:
Well, already at age 14, like I’d said before, I tend to think I was financially independent and self-employed running three… I was going fruit picking in the school holidays, paper around, golf course. I realized that probably I’d be better to go and work for myself because when I actually worked in a bank with my first job after school, they said to become a bank manager you have to wait till age 33. I was 17 and the maths on that wasn’t very attractive, 16 years before I got the top salary and I was quite a good worker. I thought this is too long. At 23 I left and went on full commission for National Mutual. At 26 I decided that I always wanted to help people. I was motivated by helping people, but getting paid for it.
John S:
At 26, I thought, well, why don’t I go become a broker so I can give people not just National Mutual policies, I can give them the best policies. My income dropped by 50% for one year while I did that. But I had the satisfaction that I was helping people, but also I was build… They paid a trial commission, which National Mutual didn’t. I was building an asset. I had this in my bones that build a business, build an asset, get a lower income, do a better deal for clients. That ticked all my values boxes and that’s when I… because my income had dropped, that’s why it was attractive to set up the companies in family trusts. I could give them the best superannuation policy, if it was Occidental or Mercantile Mutual was another company that had very good policies.
John S:
The big companies like AMP National Mutual didn’t have as good a policy. By being a broker, I could sleep at night and know Warwick that I gave you the best deal that was available. I knew that I was also building a lifetime business potentially for myself. I enjoyed the freedom because got married young and we moved to Melbourne where we didn’t know anybody. But Sue’s family was in Tassie, my family was in Tassie and I grew up… Sue didn’t grow up in a Christian home and I did and I found after a while us gallivanting, we were living on the mainland, we enjoyed it. But we just lacked that sense of community and I wanted our children to grow up with grandparents and a sense of community. I went to a Christian school. I went to church regularly and that foundational… those values I found that I wanted my children to have.
John S:
I could see in the big cities that that’s a bit of a problem. I could just look ahead. I’ve always had the ability to look ahead and intuitively in my spirit I just thought, so I’ve walked away from the really high income I was earning in Melbourne and decided to move back to Tassie. Sue wasn’t really that happy about that. We had a beautiful 20 acre property. She loved horses and animals, but I felt that our family was going to be better off. I was prepared to pay the price and move back to Tassie and it was quite humbling because I was quite a successful person in Melbourne. In Tassie I had to go back to square one and go backwards and start from scratch. There isn’t the same talent pool in the smaller… It’s like a big country town.
John S:
The problem is I was then back selling smaller policies and doing less business and having to humble myself. But it’s the best decision I ever made because Sue got really involved in our local church because she didn’t grow up as a Christian. My Christian faith was always about here and she had… But once she became a Christian, her faith went to there and she became very evangelistic and wanted to share her faith and convert her family and all her friends. She got a lot of rejection and I must admit my theology, maybe I wasn’t such a good listener Warwick, but I used to hear messages like the rich young ruler or the narrow road and the eye of the needle, the love of money and I used to think, well, I love what money can do. It was a very fine line.
John S:
I thought if I ever get to heaven, I’ll probably just scrape in there. But Sue was only a Christian for a matter of a couple of years and she ran an outreach Sunday school and just had a heart for people who didn’t know Jesus. Then after a while she went through this… there was an American program called EE3, which was about cold calling on evangelism. Sue was very courageous when it came to horse riding and evangelism, but on everything else she was risk averse and she’s a detail person. Whereas I’m the one that was very gung ho and big picture, but when it came to sharing my faith, it was very private and I didn’t share it. This is what sort of set the scene for a lot of things that happened later in life that I look back on now and they make sense, but at the time I just thought, well, I don’t know. I’ve had some teaching on predestination and people will have the opportunity to go to church, if they do, or they don’t, I don’t know where my theology was at that time. But I was a fairly private in everything Warwick.
John S:
It wasn’t like I was… I’m really an introvert. I’m an extrovert when it comes to achieving what I feel I want. If there’s a goal I want to achieve, I’ll role play and do what it takes. But by nature, I’m quite a loner and I enjoy my own company.
Warwick F:
No, I get it. I know the turning point in your life was a obviously car accident and then a moment in church with this bikey guy, John Smith. Before we get there because it’s fascinating beats to the story, you founded this company Garrisons. Now, before that sort of car crash thing, that was already growing, wasn’t it, Garrisons?
John S:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
I mean, you were building up a business. Talk about sort of the pre almost car crash. Where were you in business? I mean, you were really building something impressive.
John S:
Well, what happened when I moved back to Tassie as a independent broker on being able to do insurance and super, I wanted to help people more and give them access to property investment and share investments. When the financial planning industry was born in Australia, I again moved from being the broker into financial planning. Most of the information was coming out of the US. There was a guy in Sydney called Robert Morrison, who was the pioneer of the financial planning industry in Australia. I decided that I would move out of insurance and super broking and go into financial planning. Again, my income halved in the first couple of years, because you didn’t get paid the big commissions that you got on selling insurance and super. I decided also, because I hadn’t bothered to go and do the accountancy study, to do financial planning you really needed to be quite good technically.
John S:
One of the things I’ve always done is improvise, so I thought, well, how do I move into this industry without me going to university and studying accountancy? I decided to find an accountant. I advertised to find an accountant who could work alongside me to give my business the technical credibility, and I would become the front end and the people person to get the new clients, but this person would do all the technical report writing and the compliance and whatever. This worked really quite well. But then after a while, I found too that I’m too fast paced to do financial planning because you’re dealing with older people and they’ve got money on term deposit and they sort of scratch their head and they think, “Oh, well, I’m not sure of the market’s right now so I’ll flip it over again for another six months.”
John S:
I was used to selling insurance where literally I could go into a lounge room and we used to talk about backing the hearse scene, so I could sit down with you and your wife, Warwick and sort of say, well, to your wife, “Well, what happens if Warwick didn’t come home from work tomorrow? What would happen to you?” I’d ask that question. You could pretty well walk out-
Warwick F:
Right.
John S:
… with a sale and get paid. Financial planning, I might come and see you and you might have money to invest, but there’s no urgency. I thought this is-
Warwick F:
Right.
John S:
… driving me crazy. I thought, “I think I’m better off to probably get other people to do the financial planning and I’ll get the new clients in.” I decided to start my own financial planning and employ financial planners, but because I wasn’t big enough and didn’t have capital, I couldn’t grow it. A guy across town whose parents owned a whole lot of supermarkets, he got his own license. Back in those days you could get a license from the regulator like buying a loaf of bread. He had a license and it was interesting. He asked me to join him, plus he had another guy who was a property trust guy, and the other guy got 25% equity. I got 25 transferring my clients and this guy owned 50. I went in there as the third person, but I found very quickly that I was the one that was building the business. I’d like growing things, so I started an office in Launceston and Burnie. I started growing the business and I found we didn’t share the same values.
John S:
I had a long-term view about client relationships and I was prepared to lose money in the short term to build a long-term business. The guy who owned the shares, the 50%, well, he was used to looking at the till each month and seeing if we made a profit or a loss, and he wanted to make decisions on that basis. I found we weren’t on the same… we didn’t have the same vision for the business and the other guy was just wanting to do property trusts. I orchestrated quite a painful experience in buying, first of all, out the 50% shareholder and we had to go into debt to do that on the process of… and then the other guy, I bought them both out and I had a second mortgage on my house, I had credit card debt. But I then was able to get people to join me who shared my values.
John S:
That’s when the business took off. But to finance it, I sold 49% of the business to Mercantile Mutual to get rid of some personal debt and corporate debt and so we could grow the business and that’s what happened. We then saw the business take off. But one of the problems we had was I’d become a workaholic at that point and was working 80 hours a week. I had all the trappings of success. I built a beautiful architect home overlooking a beach in the golf course out of convict bricks. I had a beach house at Orford an hour from Hobart on the beach. I had the BM and I had four kids at private school and I was running and jogging every couple of days. Life looked pretty cool on the outside. I’m a CEO, the largest shareholder, four kids all at private school. I’m churchgoing. I looked really good, but cracks started appearing. The wheels started falling off. This is where I had a massive wake up call because I used to go to Launceston, which was a couple of hours drive every Friday.
Warwick F:
Just so that US audiences understand, Tasmania is not that big a place. You’ve got Hobart in the Southeast, Launceston in the north. That’s sort of like one end of the state to the other is a couple hours or something like that.
John S:
It’s like a dream. You picture British Columbia or something. It’s like that sort of… I used to go there every Friday. I’d be up at, leave home at 6:00 and I would be there by 8:30. I don’t know. If you do the same drive continually, you go into a bit of a trance and your mind wanders and you think about everything else. Your car is almost in auto drive. It’s like the cars that we’re making now, driverless car. You basically are driving it, but you’re… You’d sometimes think, “I don’t remember driving through this town because you just… One Friday when I drove up there, from one week to the next they’d actually moved the road, but I didn’t know. I came around and saw the normal road signs and drove around the corner the same as I would normally and I’m heading straight for a truck and my life flashed in front of me and I thought, “My life’s over, I’m dead.”
John S:
I shut my eyes. I swung the steering wheel and bang, I hit the side of the truck and I’m up the road 50 meters and I’m thinking, “How come I’m not dead? I must have some guardian angels looking after me because I thought my life was over.” I couldn’t believe that I hadn’t died. I got out and looked at the car and there was scratches all along the side, but it could still limp along. I remember thinking, “This is symptomatic of my life. My life’s out of control. I’m just so obsessed with success and building this business.” I thought I realized I have to change and it made me really reflect on what is my purpose in life and what am I doing? It made me dig deep.
John S:
Not only did I have that car crash, but it was around that time that I mean, I’d also having bad migraine headaches. I used to come home two nights a week and literally take some heavy medication and go to bed with a wet face washer and some ice blocks and wouldn’t surface till the morning in the dark room, couldn’t talk, couldn’t eat with the family, sometimes physically ill. I’d also created quite a bit of debt to own the most shares in the company, buying out these other shareholders, having a beautiful home and all the trappings of success. I had financial health. Then on top of that, my wife said to me one day, “John, you’re not the fun guy I married, you’re a workaholic and we get the leftovers and when you are home, you’re often lying on the couch or in bed with migraines. I can’t cope with this. I didn’t sign up for this. Unless you change, I want out.”
John S:
I was shocked by that because in my mind I was working hard for my family. Probably worse than the health or the debt or the relational was I actually thought I don’t like who I’ve become. I don’t like who I am. Look what’s happened to me. It was a really a soul searching period that I started thinking, how did I get to this? This is not what I set out to do. It was quite a traumatic… I started really searching and wondering. I mean, I must admit I was a bit of a five minutes a day Bible reader and a five minute a day prayer person. I was very efficient. I was able to work a lot of the time and problem is with the family too, I’d take them on a family holiday each year, but it was like catching up, but short changing them as well. It was really difficult.
John S:
Then one day I heard a talk that changed my life, because we used to go to church regularly, but I always felt a bit of a misfit in church. I wasn’t a muso, I wasn’t a Sunday school teacher. I wasn’t the youth leader, the extrovert. But anyway, I believed in God and I had quite strong faith. But this day I went to church and there was a bikey, Harley-Davidson bikey who set up God Squad, not only in Australia, but overseas as well, called John Smith.
John S:
He got up in the pulpit and often you snooze through a few sermons here and there and he really caught my attention because he said, “If I could find 100 business men to give me a million dollars each week, It could change this nation. That was when we had the Lionel Murphy divorce laws going through where you could have no fault divorce and there was the whole social fabric of what we’d grown up with on the value of marriage was being challenged. He was really vocal about that and when he said that my heart lept. I thought, “That’s me. I’m one of the 100.” I temporarily forgot about the desperately unhappy wife. I forgot about all my debt that I’d accumulated to own all these things. I forgot about my migraines.
John S:
You know what happened, I remembered that when I was 14 and I used to look for golf balls, do my paper round between 6:00 and 7:00, 7:30 I was on the golf course. I remember being by a swamp on the ninth hole and I used to have regular spots so I could find these 20 golf balls in four hours. I remember having a conversation in my head that I’d never had before in my life saying, “Why am I so blessed? Why am I literally able to buy anything because I’ve always got money? Why do I live idyllically by the beach? Why have I got great parents? Why did I had been able to go to a Christian school? It’s not fair. Look at all the people in the world that I read about and see that haven’t got what I’ve got. I know what I’m going to do.” When I turn age 50, I’m going to spend the rest of my life helping others. What I’m going to do between now then is make as much money as I can. Obviously I’ll get married, have children, have a mortgage pay off, but that’s what I’m going to do.”
John S:
I had this conversation in my head and actually, when I thought about it, I thought, “How come I’m having this conversation in my head?” I went to a very conservative church. I knew about God and Jesus. I didn’t really understand the Holy Spirit. I had a simple faith and I probably didn’t listen in church enough Warwick. I thought, “If I tell anybody what I’ve just experienced, they’d think I’m going mad.” You know what I did, I didn’t tell one person that I had that conversation in my head because I thought if I told anyone, they would say, “You’ve got to go and see a psychologist. John…”
Warwick F:
This conversation when you were 14, you mean? When you were-
John S:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
Wow.
John S:
Now when you move the clock back, 26 years later I’m 40 and I’m sitting in the church, that conversation, which I hadn’t thought about since 14 came back to me when he said, “Now I understand the Holy Spirit, I understand how God works.” I realized that God had been put in my spirit. I’d had a holy spirit time here, a divine moment at 14. Then at 40 a dream had been reignited by that John Smith moment that had been, I feel God had used him to deposit that in my spirit to rekindle a dream and a purpose that God had for my life. You wouldn’t believe it if probably 10 minutes later in that same church service I heard virtually in an audible voice saying, “John, I did not create you for you to be successful. I created you to help others succeed and if you will do that, you will be truly successful.” Literally sitting in church there I think, “You’ve got it all back to front. You idiot.”
John S:
And the lights came on. I thought, “Ah, I’ve been trying so hard so I could be really really successful so one day I can be generous. I need to be generous along the way and I can help people now.” Then I got what I knew was a quickening. I got a holy spirit download of all the things I had to change in my life. I’ve got it and I won’t go through them now Warwick, they’re in my book, chapter six. But the first one was stop trying to change my wife to suit my success and help her be who God created her to be, make myself available in the community and don’t use headaches or debt or business as an excuse not to help the school that my children are going to or the church.
John S:
I’d been asked to go on the school board of my children’s Christian school. I’d been asked to become an elder at the church. I had said no to both of those. Now, I’m saying stop being logical and do. If God calls you to do that, you say yes. One of the other things I wrote down was stop reading the Bible as a historical book of 2000 years ago written and read it as God’s business plan to man. I understood business plans really well. They were powerful. My life was run by a business plan with vision, mission, values, action plans, KPIs and I loved it. I used that, the whole business. I thought, “Well, that’s really, God actually wrote one not just for one person, He wrote that for everybody on the planet. If they would bother to read it as a plan on how to live your life, manage your finances. You go to Ecclesiastes, about one, two, three, diversify your investments, send them overseas. You don’t know where your crop… take risks. You look at the Bible and about marriage, everything in there about how to do business, marriage, make God your first love and give your first fruits, don’t give me the leftovers and test me and your barns will overflow. All these things I discovered.
John S:
After those, I wrote down these 13 things and start loving myself. I realized I didn’t love myself. I’d allowed Satan to snatch, steal, destroy and I basically had… I was driven too much by fear. I’d stopped taking risks. I had to go back and I’d like C.S. Lewis about all these little… The devil is so cunning sending out all these little devils. I didn’t realize the spiritual battle that I was in at work, or when I was away, so tended to be the holy huddle Bible study church, I felt. But six days a week, you’re out there in the jungle on your own and I’ve realized that we need to recognize the voice of the Holy Spirit. We need to be in the word of God every day. We need to be mixing with others. That happened. But then you had an altar call, this bikey and I’m in a church of 300 people and I’m a well-known person. I’m a CEO of a company. I thought, “I still got pride, no way am I going up to the front to say my life is a mess here.”
John S:
You know what I did, I quietly sneak out the back and raced home Warwick and went into my study, got a sheet of paper, shut the door and I wrote down… I thought before I forget this download, I’ve got to write them all down.
Warwick F:
I mean, that’s really… I just want to read a couple of things you have in your book because that’s… and obviously we’ll get here to what you’re doing now. But what that bikey said, it changed your life. I mean, what you write in your book, you said-
Gary S:
Can I jump in for a second?
Warwick F:
Please, go ahead.
Gary S:
On behalf of all the Americans and you guys can define, I think I know what it is-
Warwick F:
Sure.
Gary S:
… but what’s a bikey.
Warwick F:
Go ahead.
John S:
A Harley-Davidson is. I think they originate in the US.
Gary S:
Right.
John S:
If you ride that in Australia, you’re called a bikey.
Gary S:
Okay. We call them bikers here in the States.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Gary S:
Got it.
Warwick F:
The leather jacket, there’s a certain look.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Exactly. Well pointed out. One of the things this guy said, John Smith, he said, “Instead of disparaging wealth and making me feel guilty.” This is you, John, commenting. Instead of disparaging wealth and making me feel guilty because I had some money, he challenged people like me to use that affluence, not solely for our own comfort, but to help others. He explained that each of us had been uniquely wired and created for a purpose, for a greater purpose than just aiming to live a comfortable life. You say, “I was put on this earth to accomplish something for a higher purpose, yet I was living as if I was the only one that mattered.” Then you say this, “Here’s part of his message that really hit a raw nerve. If you want God to bless you, that will only happen when you put him first in your life.” You really, your whole life changed. You say it was a change or die moment. You wrote those 13 principles, one of which is stop chasing success and pursue purpose instead. I mean, that changed your whole life.
John S:
Oh, yeah. It was a defining moment. One of the things that in Australia there’s a whole movement called about life balance. I actually tried life balance and I don’t believe in life balance. I actually believe when you really define life balance, it’s basically saying I’m going to be selfish because to have a balanced life, you don’t want to do things that will unbalance it. But if you pursue… If you look at Paul in the Bible, did he have life balance? Because he was shipwrecked, he was stoned, he was beaten up, but he pursued his calling. I think we need to realize that to pursue our calling might come at a cost and it might not give us life balance. I think Western Christianity has fallen for the same issue that the secular world… the secular world is life balance means you just have a nice life and everything is nice around you and you’re generous, but only to a point where it doesn’t cost you. You’re not going to cross the road and help the good Samaritan if it unbalances your life or means you can’t eat or if you haven’t got a home or you’re going to… I believe that life balance is something the devil would like us to do.
Warwick F:
What’s amazing about that is you work just as hard just in some areas in the business, but also in some non-profits in part Jossy Chacko and what you’re doing with Halftime Australia and your consulting purpose based business. You’re working all these hours, but yet your marriage and your relationship with your kids got better, because what you write is when you were there with them, you were present, you were alive, you were more alive than you’d ever been. I don’t know if it was… it wasn’t necessarily more work-life balance, but you were just more fully alive, more fully who God intended you to be and everything improved, right?
John S:
Yeah. Well, what happened was I got… after I wrote down those 13 things and put them in the drawer and shut, I didn’t tell Sue either, because I’d been a bit of a sweet nothing man. I’d make promises and not deliver. I thought it’s no use her telling me, after the service, after I put all that away, I said, “Great service. It really spoke to me.” I just gave her an overview, but I didn’t tell specifically, number one on the list is I’m going to… I just started role-playing and behaving differently. But God put me through a couple of tests then and a mate of mine who was on the school board, the school was losing a million a year and he said, “John, can you come and help the school and become the treasurer?”
John S:
The old me would have said, “No way.” Now, after my defining moment, I decided to put Jesus in the front seat of the car, rather than beside me or out in the back seat. I used to drive the car and make decisions and ask God to ratify them. I said I’ve got to get in the backseat. When I was asked to be on the school board, now I’m praying about it and saying, “God, if this is what you want me to do, that it’s actually what I’ll do.” I felt at peace. “Yes, this is what I want you…” I used to hate school. I love sports and I love business, but school was not a place I really enjoyed. God was taking me back and testing me. I went on the school board and they were losing a million a year in today’s dollars, but I realized they’d lost their vision and they had the wrong principal and the wrong bursar.
John S:
I used my business skills to bring in an external consultant who did personality profiling and assessment. I sat down with the bursar and said, “Mate, you’re so good at… you’re entrepreneurial. You should be in a business, not a bean counter. We need an ex bank manager or someone here looking after the finances of the school.” He then resigned, no redundancy and started a business and he’s still in it today, 25 years later. The principal, after going through that realized he was a primary school principal rather than looking after three or four campuses. He resigned as well and the school and never looked back. The thing I had to do is I realized that our fees were too low. We had top quartile education, bottom quartile fees.
John S:
We did analysis for all the schools in Australia and I went to an AGM and said, “We’ve got to lift the fees by 50% from January 1.” Because all the previous treasurers had been politically correct and prayerful, but didn’t have the guts to tell the truth. I said, “I could put up the fees by 15% every year for three or four years or do it one go in 50.” I only had to put them up by 40, but I realized by doing it 50, I could cream money from the Gary’s and the Warwick’s and give it to the poor and I set up a Robinhood fund and had a hundred thousand dollars in it and poor people could show me their tax return. I realized I could use my business skills in the community and I got great satisfaction from that.
John S:
Well, I did that for five years. Then the local church had a charismatic split, second one, 100 people left and went to another church and my mate, who was on the school board said, “John, can you come and help us find another pastor so we can sack the pastor.” I said, “Really?” And I said, “Well, you’ve got a job description?” “No.” “You’ve got a plan for the church.” “No.” I said, “Well, I’ll only find a pastor and you’ll have another split because he’ll bring…”Oh, can you come and help the elders and the deacons? Talk to them about…” Anyway, here I find myself with the pillars of the church here, the business guy, and they said, “Could you find a…” I said, “No, I’m not going to help you find a pastor.” It must’ve been the Holy Spirit, I said, “I’ll tell you what I can do. What about meeting two nights a week for three months, every Monday and Wednesday night, 7:30 to 9:30. We’ll go through scripture and we’ll work out why we exist, then we’ll develop a plan. Then we’ll go and hire a pastor to implement it.” “Oh yep. Okay.” “Either that or I don’t.” They agreed.
John S:
I didn’t know my Bible very well and I thought I’m with all these great teachers and pastors. I had a friend of mine who I knew was very versed in the word of God and was involved in planning a church, so I said, “What can I do with these people? How am I going to take them through scripture? It’s the blind leading…” He said, “John, read this Bible verse and ask these five questions and put them into small groups and then get them to report back and you just document it and end up with a plan.” It’s exactly what I did. I faked it. Someone in America who’s good at that, I faked it and he might have Dutch blood as well. I don’t know. But anyway, so I put a plan together after three months, called a congregational meeting one Sunday afternoon. We did a creche. We got that plan approved and I called one pastor and then two and three. The numbers were 300. They’d gone to about 180 when I got involved. They made me chairman of elders and we grew the church in a country town from two to 600 in five years. I realized that God was equipping me in business to be able to work back and add value in other areas.
Warwick F:
Link that with what you’re doing now, because these are almost like trial balloons, or I think you write about it somewhere about stepping stones. It’s like, “Boy, I can use my business skills to really help nonprofits and organizations whose missions I care about.” But from there you still had a successful business. I think you sold that. I think you mentioned at one point …
John S:
That’s the crazy bit Warwick that I cut my hours back from 80 to 50 and spent 10 hours more at home and 20 hours in the community. That resurrected my marriage relationship. Sue saw me involved in the church and the school. She loved that. Amazingly, because I was a controlling leader, I have to admit and I can do it better than anyone else. I was competitive and whatever. When I went from 80 hours to 50, I had to start empowering people because I had to spend 30 hours away from the business. Then I went to an empowering leadership style, God gave me revelation on some ideas and I started taking risks. The business, I set up a funds management company, which I’d never done before. I’d started franchising our offices and expanding to all of Australia rather than just being in Tas.
John S:
The business grew by 40% percent per annum over the next 10 years. I was bankrupt on paper at 40. At 49, two months into my 50th year, I got an offer from Challenger, the listed company and we sold out, which allowed me two months into my 50th year the dream that God had put on my heart at 14. I was able to then spend the rest of my life helping others. I went to part-time CEO and met a guy on the plane who was doing amazing work in North India who had a vision to plant 100,000 churches. I had got our denomination, which normally didn’t plant churches to set up an organization called Vision 100 to plant 100 churches in Tassie. We got that off the ground, but we had planted one church and I’m thinking I’m pretty good.
John S:
I’m on a plane to a Hawaii to a conference and I sit next to this guy and I say, “What are you doing?” He says, “I’m a church planter.” He’s 19 years younger. I said, “Well, how many churches you planted?” I’m a numbers person. He said, “200.” I went, “Ah.” We’d planned on and I was… God doing another number on me. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I didn’t believe what he was telling me. I thought, “Why is God doing all this in North India and not in Australia.” Anyway, I went with him on a three-week trip to North India and I slept here and he slept there. We spent three weeks together and I went all through North India where less than 1% of the population are Christian, the 60% are Hindu, 20% Muslim.
John S:
I was just blown away by everything he told me was true that God was doing an amazing work in North India and he asked me to come and chair his board. I moved back to Tassie. 10 years before that Sue was talking divorce and we had our forever house. I said, “Darling I think I need to help this guy do this 100,000 church planting.” And I said, “Maybe I can get a flat in Port Melbourne and keep our house here.” She said, “No no, that won’t be good for our marriage. Let’s sell our dream home. Let’s sell our waterfront holiday home. We’ll move to Melbourne, not to Port Melbourne though. We’ll move to acreage.” We sold up everything and moved to Melbourne near where Jossy lived. I spent half my time helping him with setting up the infrastructure to do these 100,000 churches and help in Asia and then help him globally set up and spend the other half of my time coaching and mentoring business people to find their purpose. That’s all-
Warwick F:
As well as Halftime Australia. I mean, so you’re still-
Gary S:
Let me jump in.
Warwick F:
Please, go ahead.
Gary S:
I just want to jump in. I love stories, John. You tell fabulous stories. I could listen to you tell stories more than I can watch Netflix. But one thing as I hear your stories, there’s a quote that you have in your book that I think summarizes every story you’ve just told and that’s a quote from Gandhi who said this, “The best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in service to others.” How has that thread been woven through your life and the stories you’ve shared so far with our listeners?
John S:
I really liked the Paul quote that daily, you’ve got to take up your cross and follow him. I think it’s a matter of dying to self and really being open to what God’s plan. Once in my forties, I sat down and crafted a mission statement with the help of a coach and I got real clarity about what… If I’m 90 lying back on my death bed, what would I… I can’t change the script from nought till 40, but I can change the script from 40 to 80 or 90 or whatever it is. Really, to hear well done good faithful servant, before we were born, God created good works in advance for us to do in Ephesians 2:10. One of the revelations God gave me, in the new living translation it says we are God’s masterpiece.
John S:
The first problem we’ve got the devil convinces us that we are not God’s masterpiece, which means we can’t then really step into our calling and do what God planned before us to do. I find that so many Christians will sit in a church pew, but if you ask them, are you clear on your calling? Most people are not, even though they’ve been in the church university for 30 or 40 years, sadly. They’ve got a generic concept of what their calling is. Well, it’s be a good father, a good husband, a good Christian, keep the 10 commandments, tithe, go to church, love my neighbor and I serve in this here. But we’ve created a very comfortable Western Christianity which is very riskless and we can quote lots of Bible verses, but we won’t take steps of faith. My passion is really, my change was I flipped and I had to let control of my own life.
John S:
I realized when I was 23 when I gave my life to Jesus, that I only surrendered half my life. I said, “I’ll keep this half for myself, my business.” Because I’m pretty good. I’ve proven I can keep goals. I can do that better than most of my peers, so just bless me doing that Lord and I will use that for your purpose. But God showed me 20 years of me going that way, I got my life in a mess and I had to surrender 100% of my life at 40. When John Smith spoke and I had that defining moment, I had to let go of my business skills. I had to become childlike in my faith and I then every day when I have problems, I would journal and say, “God, thank you for…” I used to keep a scorecard every month of goals I keep. I crossed out the word goals and said blessings. If I was dead, the only… being alive, the only reason I was able to keep those goals is because God blessed me and gave me favor.
John S:
The problems that I used to think I had, I now call them prayer points and I’ll write them down and I just keep writing them down. Every night I hand them over. My headaches miraculously were cured a month or two after I sold up everything and God knew I was following him, He gave me a miraculous cure of my headaches and he blessed my business when I cut my hours back from 30 and committed to surrender, not just 50. Because I used to make business decisions and ask God to ratify them. To answer your question, Gary, I would say it’s moving from 50% surrender to 100% surrender and putting Jesus in control of my life.
John S:
But daily, I have to fight my natural tendency to take control again. That’s my human nature. Because I love competition, I love goals, I love challenge. The danger is, like Paul, that’s why Paul says that, daily we got to surrender and go back to our first love in the letter to the seven churches. In the Western world, we’ve created comfort Christianity and we’ve made things very much around suiting our intellectual and our creature comforts. I love creature comforts and that hasn’t changed. But anyway, if that answers your question.
Gary S:
Indeed.
Warwick F:
Wow. I mean, that is so powerful, John. I mean, you’re a driven competitive person. It’s almost like you had a road to Damascus moment, I guess, within a short period of time, the car crash and that talk by John Smith in your church. How would you describe the difference between the old John Sikkema and the one that you are now? What’s the biggest difference between those two John Sikkemas would you say?
John S:
I actually think the first John Sikkema was always looking for a return on investment. I don’t know if it’s my Dutch background. I think I had selective generosity. I think one of the things that God has shown me is we can actually be 24/7 generous with our time and our skill. Money is the least component of that. Most of us can write out a check to buy time. If we want to go to a footy game rather than visit someone in hospital or something, if we can give some money to someone else to go and do it, we’re masters of contracting out things we don’t want to do. I think we’ve done that with our Christian faith as well. I really feel we’ve really got to be prepared to be generous 24/7. On of the lessons I had to learn and I learned that from my Indian friend, we’ve got to do the sowing and leave the reaping to God.
John S:
I was brought up more… if I invest this amount of time here, I need to get a return here. But I think biblically, what we should be doing is we should sow here and be generous and expect nothing back. But amazingly, somewhere else, God will bless us way beyond what we did with that and that’s where the Malachi thing comes into it about where barns will be overflowing. Give me your first fruits and test me. But we don’t quite trust God enough to give more. I think Corinthians 2 chapter eight about generosity, giving when you can’t afford to give, taking steps of faith. I just come across Christians who quote Bible verses ad nauseum, but really I can see from their life, they demonstrate very little faith.
John S:
They want all the ducks lined up and they’re worried about what man will say. What we really need to do is not have all the ducks lined up and take a step of faith and allow Jesus to join us and help us. It’s like saying, I’ll give you the words, if you get into court or you get persecuted, don’t worry about what you’re going to say, I’ll give you the words. God works, not only I’ll give you the words, but I’ll give you the resources. If you have a big vision to do something for God, you haven’t got the resources, don’t worry about it. Just go and do… step towards it and allow God to provide the provision. We’ve got to sow, don’t expect a return where we sow, but we’ve got to keep sowing generously and leave the reaping to God and just be grateful.
John S:
Use what he puts in our hand. Don’t worry about quoting too many Bible verses. I think be more about action and not so much about the words, because I think we’ve become very clever in our Christian world and I think we’ve got to unlearn a lot of what we have grown up with. I do feel the founding fathers like Wesley or Calvin or Luther, if they saw what we were doing under the brands of churches and they would be horrified and they would say, “You’re heresy what you’re doing.” I think we’ve got to forget about labels and denominational. We just got to get back to the word of God and not allow any human interferences or agreements to… We made it too complex and we’re overthinking. We overthink everything today. We not only overthink all our decision making, but as Christians, we overthink and we will talk about prayer, right, and we’ll talk about Bible reading and we’ll talk about conferences and whatever. It’s really quite simple. Just got to take little simple steps. You can take them at work.
John S:
One of my big things that are motivated about at the moment, and I’m putting a book together and I’m not a good writer so I got to get a lot of help, but is to use your business to turbocharge your life purpose. The problem I find today is that people, this is where their life purpose is, but most people don’t even know what it is. We need to spend time with God to find what is my life purpose and then what we actually need to do is narrow the gap. Because my business is here and my life purpose here, the gap between those two is tension and pressure. If you can bring your business in alignment like a bikey with a slip stream in alignment, you can turbocharge your life purpose.
John S:
I think we really got to get clear about what my calling is and my business at 90 on your death bed, you’re not going to say Warwick, “I wish I’d built that $2 billion business.” What you’re going to be… and that’s what your book is about and people should read it. It’s a great message. What you’re about is we want to use our business and our influence and our networks and the people we know to fulfill the great commission, to become workers for the harvest. God convicted me that we as business people are the apostolic people, not just leaders in our business, but we need to be apostolic about… We are in the marketplace. Jesus did most of his stuff in the marketplace, but we’re living all the great commission staff and the workers for the harvest, we somehow have got that quarantined into paid church workers and we are over here making money we give to them. They can’t do it.
John S:
In Australia we’ve had seven decades of declining church membership. Business people need to be in the marketplace and be active in the great commission. We’ve got to get involved in becoming workers for the harvest. We’ve got to own that. The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few, pray to the Lord of the harvest, so pray Warwick, how God can use you in the harvest. Gary, pray how God can use you in the harvest. Keep a KPI. How many people are you sharing your faith with and not getting to church. Church is where two or three will gather. We’ve got involved in trying to build the church. Jesus said, “I’ll build the church.” I think we need to be involved in kingdom, building kingdom companies, be involved in the kingdom, be involved in sharing our faith in the marketplace.
John S:
God’s shown me and it’s a talk for another time, but Sue and I started a group in our house just getting business people to come here, who wouldn’t go to church. 90% of people I’ve asked them to come to church, say no. If I invite them to come for dinner at home, 90% say yes. We just got them in our home and started sharing some of the Halftime principles, got a home theater, we put on a meal once a fortnight, bring in some food, eight o’clock we go down to the home theater. I’d talk a bit about Halftime, about leaving a legacy, making your life count, being generous. Then I’ve been using some of the videos like Alpha or other things and we’ve actually, after one year we saw six people give their life to Jesus and we were able to baptize them down the beach recently. My passion is business people to get involved in the great commission, not just passive spectators.
Warwick F:
Wow. Well, thank you so much, John. As we kind of begin to close, what’s sort of amazing to me is you look at the, maybe before the accident and John Smith moment, you were very competitive, driven by success. I think as you write. It wasn’t just about money, more than money, it was the thrill of the chase, the thrill of the competition that was driving you. You’re still driven, but yet I sense that you are more… you’re not working any less. You’re not any less driven than you were. I don’t know that you’re working any less hours, but you’re more fulfilled. You have a happier marriage, your kids, a stronger relationship than you’ve ever been because your life is in service of a higher purpose. It’s in service of your fundamental beliefs and values. Obviously we share a common Christian faith. There may be others who do, maybe others have different values or different concept of a higher purpose.
Warwick F:
When you link your life, your business, everything you do to a higher purpose, then that gives you more joy and fulfillment. We in Crucible Leadership talk about a life of significance, very similar to what you do, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Well, that’s what you do, living a life of significance, living in line of your values and in your case and my case, Christian faith, you have a level of joy and fulfillment that every day you wake up excited, every night if you’re having trouble going to sleep, it’s because you’re so excited about what God’s doing in your life. It’s not because of the old reasons. Does that make sense? I mean, is that sort of one way of summarizing where you are today?
John S:
I have got as much energy as I had at 40. I’m passionate. I’m just eternally… I’m so grateful that I was given a second chance Warwick. I could have lost it all. I had bad health, I could have been bankrupt, I could have lost my marriage, I could have lost my kids. I could have lost everything. I’m just so grateful that I didn’t.
Warwick F:
It was in a sense like that road to-
John S:
Pretty close.
Warwick F:
… Damascus moment or-
John S:
I felt I was at close to the edge of losing it all and it made me just really-
Warwick F:
There was one path that went down to misery and destruction and there was another path that went to redemption, joy and significance and you picked the road that led to joy, significance, stronger marriage, stronger relationships, stronger faith. It sounds like you picked the right road.
Gary S:
That is a great time gentlemen. I just heard the captain turn on the fasten seatbelt sign because it’s getting time to land the plane. In this particular case, the plane of course is a Qantas jet.
Warwick F:
Of course.
John S:
Oh, great…
Gary S:
I would be remiss, John. I would be remiss if I did not make good on my promise at the outset when I said that if you’re a CEO and would like to engage John as an executive business mentor and coach, and then I said, keep listening and you’ll find out how. How can our listeners find out more about you John and about Halftime Australia?
John S:
If you just Google halftimeaustralia.org.au, there are contact detail’s on there. Halftime Australia, it’s just halftime.org.au is the website and you can contact me through that.
Gary S:
Excellent. Warwick, final question?
Warwick F:
No. Just thank you so much for your example of really being dedicated to faith to God and just really following the calling in your heart that you were given at age 14. I mean, it’s amazing. God put that thought in you and maybe the embers kind of died down a little over the years, but never fully went out. That fateful moment of the car crash and that talk by the bikey guy, John Smith, that ember was fanned into flame and your purpose from then just went through the roof. It’s just a great example of somebody who can be successful and joyful. Success and significance is not either-or. You have accomplished both. You have modeled for other business leaders that you can have it all in the sense of it’s okay to be successful in business, but you can have joy and satisfaction and significance too. You’re really a great example of what’s possible.
John S:
One little thing is I never thought that Sue and I could become a team. We’re so different, but we are an amazing team. It’s just got better and better. I couldn’t believe it because I’m very fast paced, I change gears, I’m an ideas going everywhere, but it’s amazing how we got onto a vision that we both bought into, a purpose and we both know the roles where we fit and we help each other. We’ve become a real team like I did within the business, I found a really good business partner and I’m blown away. I never thought that was possible. Anyone who’s listening, don’t believe that you and your wife can’t become amazing team, even though you are not now. That can happen, but it will take a lot of work, but it’s possible using personality profiling, dying to self, working with your strengths, just looking at and finding out what each of your visions are and seeing the bridge you can build between them.
John S:
It’s amazing. I could not believe it. I would have rated us as a team at five out of 10, and we’re that close to 10 now, but it didn’t happen overnight. It took a little bit at a time. But anyway, so give hope, because for a lot of guys, that’s a huge problem. They think they can never team with their spouse. But it is possible, but you got to use… The view I took to Sue is I’ve got to coach and mentor her like she’s the most valuable, highest paid employee in my company. How do I help her succeed in that role?
Gary S:
That sound you heard listeners is the wheels on the ground. The plane has landed. I’ve been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word is spoken and when the last word is spoken about shared vision made reality, both personally and professionally for Crucible Leadership and Beyond The Crucible, that’s the place to land. I’ve also been in the communications business long enough though to know there are probably people who have been listening, who have heard as John was telling some of his stories and Warwick made mention of it too, these 13 things that John wrote down when he had an epiphany in his life and I’m going to leave you listeners with what those 13 things are. I’m going to preface my reading of John’s 13 things by saying something that Warwick alluded to a little bit ago, John is clearly passionately a Christian, Warwick, clearly passionately a Christian. I am passionately a Christian. Maybe it’s not as clear because I don’t talk on the show all that often, all that much.
Gary S:
But even if you’re not a Christian, the principles that John laid out in his 13 things to change, you can find application for your life. You’ll see some things in here that will talk about Bible and talk about Jesus, while we believe that is the best way to carry these things out, it’s not the only way. As Warwick talks about, there are anchors for your soul, anchors for your way of life that are rooted in something more eternal that you can find. Keep that in mind as I read these 13 things to change that John wrote down.
Gary S:
Number one, make myself available for community work. Number two, stop making decisions based on what I wanted, but make decisions in keeping with helping others succeed, which was his new purpose. Number three, begin to read the Bible personally like it was written just for him. Number four, make it a priority to spend time with my wife and children and friends. Number five, apply Christian principles to my business. Number six, be prepared to make a fool of myself for what I know to be right. That one’s good. I’m going to say it again. Number six, be prepared to make a fool of myself for what I know to be right.
Gary S:
Number seven, stop chasing success and pursue purpose instead. The crux of Crucible Leadership. Number eight, dream more and follow those dreams. Number nine, be kind to myself. Number 10, take more risks. Number 11, be honest about my weaknesses, and I love the second half of this. Part B of this, be honest about my weaknesses, part A and part B, and let other people cover those. Number 12, accept pain and make hard decisions. What we talk about on Beyond The Crucible all the time, from that pain and the decisions you make after that pain can spring forth your passion, your vision for your future. The last, number 13, the baker’s dozen as we call it here in the States. I don’t know if they call it there in Australia. Number 13, don’t be competitive just for the sake of winning.
Gary S:
13 ways to go about changing your life that can lead you down a road to a better way of life, a life on purpose for purpose. Until we are together, next time listener. Thank you for spending time with us on this episode of Beyond The Crucible. Warwick and I have a little favor to ask you. If you’ve enjoyed this conversation, if you’ve enjoyed previous conversations and have not yet clicked subscribe, we ask you to click subscribe on the podcast app on which you’re listening, share this episode with your friends and family so that they can also gather the hope and the healing that we hope comes out of these discussions with men like John Sikkema and women who we’ve talked to who have gone through crucible experiences and have emerged on the other side living more robust lives, focused on more important principles.
Gary S:
That’s the truth that we want to come through in every episode of Beyond The Crucible and that truth is this, that your crucible experience is painful, we know it. All three of us who’ve been part of this conversation have had very painful crucibles, but those crucibles were not the end of our story. It wasn’t the end of John’s story, for sure. It wasn’t the end of Warwick’s story for sure and it does not have to be the end of your story. Your crucible experience in fact can be the beginning of a new chapter in your story. Here’s the remarkable thing, it can be the best chapter yet. Because if you learn the lessons of the crucible and you apply them as you move forward, where that chapter leads is to a destination you couldn’t have imagined before the crucible and that destination is a life of significance.
