How do you maintain the delicate balance between pursuing a vision that you are passionate about and treating well the men and women who are sharing that journey with you? Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax unpacks practical tips to follow in this conversation with co-host Gary Schneeberger. From keeping your ego in check … to focusing on the process, not on chasing an outcome … from making sure team members know you value them as much as you value your vision … to walking the talk so they believe it, they lay out a roadmap to both bouncing back from past crucibles and avoiding future ones.
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Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
We’ve all heard people say, don’t take your eye off the ball, but here’s the truth, right? Sometimes you have to take your eye off the ball and put your eye on the ballplayers. You have to keep in mind that yeah, the ball, the vision, the game is important, but you need the ballplayers to get you the Victory. That friends can be a whole lot easier said than done. If that wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t be dedicating an entire podcast episode to the need to balance your vision as a leader, with caring for the team that helps you accomplish that vision. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, your co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
Today Warwick and I talk through his most recent blog about just how you maintain that delicate balance between pursuing the values you hold most dear and treating well, the men and women who are sharing that journey to a life of significance with you. From keeping your ego in check to focusing on the process, not on chasing an outcome. From making sure team members know you value them as much as you value your vision to walking the talk, so they believe it. We lay out Warwick’s roadmap to both bouncing back from past crucibles and avoiding future ones.
Gary S:
Listener what we’re going to talk about today, this is one of those episodes if you have been listening for a while, we’re working, I don’t have a guest, it’s just the two of us knocking about with Crucible Leadership concepts. The idea behind this one is, and again, it’s always fun. I say it all the time what it happens. We’re not exactly sure what we’re going to call it. When we don’t know what we’re going to call it, it’s great because we’ll know what to call it when we’re done, but you already know what we called it before you clicked on it, because it’s done for you. It’s happening for us. This’ll be fun. This will be discovery for both of us.
Gary S:
We’re discovering what the show’s primary thrust is going to be in terms of what we’re going to name it. You already know that because you saw it when you clicked. But the idea behind it is that you need as a leader to balance your task, your vision, and the people who you have called to you to carry out that vision. There’s a balance required. If it’s out of alignment, not to get too personal, but I have a bad back. Sometimes my back’s out of alignment. That’s not good. If your vision and your relationship, your care of your relationship with your team is out of alignment, out of whack, it can because some problems. That’s what we’re going to walk through what the problems can be and then where we like to live in the solutions. That’s a fair summary of where we’re at. Right Warwick?
Warwick F:
Yeah, it is. Often we just think of visionaries that trying to get this grand cause accomplished. Sometimes what can happen is, you’re so focused on your vision, accomplishing your goals, that people can fall by the wayside. It’s often not because we intend to hurt anybody or ignore people. We just get really focused on the vision. The funny thing is that, the more passionate you are about the vision, the more you think that your vision really matters can help a lot of people. It’s almost the more dangerous the situation can be. Almost the more likely if you’re not careful of treading on people, ignoring them or hurting them, which is ironic.
Warwick F:
Because for some people you’re all about making the world a better place, but in the process, you can tread over people or crush them in the process. You don’t intend to, but it can happen. And so that’s really the core thought about this podcast.
Gary S:
And it’s interesting that we’re talking about vision, because what you just described can be a different kind of vision, which is tunnel vision. You can get tunnel vision sometimes as you pursue a vision. You can focus so much on the vision that you forget to put energy, effort, attention, affirmation, into the team that’s helping you carry out that vision. One of the things as we’ve talked about, what we’re going to cover here. One of the phrases that popped in my head, we’ve all heard people say, don’t take your eye off the ball, but here’s the truth, right? Sometimes you have to take your eye off the ball and put your eye on the ballplayers. You have to keep in mind that yeah, the ball, the vision, the game is important, but you need the ballplayers to get you the victory.
Warwick F:
Exactly. You do need both. The interesting thing is, you often think about in terms of the business and accomplishing goals and how a lot of these hard headed business men and women, they can run over their people as they try to achieve their objectives of 20% earnings increase over X amount of time. And that’s all true. One of the things I think about which we’ve, beginning to talk about is, if you’ve come out of a crucible and maybe you’ve had a personal tragedy, maybe an injury, professional crisis, maybe you have this vision that you don’t want anybody to go through what you went through, this vision that you feel like the world needs. It may be literally lives may depend on the success of your vision.
Warwick F:
Sometimes when you feel so strongly about things, you can be so focused on the vision in your words, tunnel vision, that you can ignore people on the way. You can be short with them. You can say, well, unless perfection is achieved, you need to get off the bus. You make one mistake you’re out, because lives depend on this, right? It could be literally lives depend on it. And so that’s where you can be so tunnel vision, so focused on the vision that I don’t know that it’s worse in a nonprofit, but it can be more tempting to justify your bullheadedness, your charge ahead, damn the torpedoes mentality and ignore people on the way.
Warwick F:
Ironically if you’re in some nonprofit, you would think you would care more about people and you should. But sometimes when you’re so caught up in the vision, that’s probably the main point. The more caught up you are in your vision, the more important you think it is, the more dangerous it is. The more if you’re not careful, the more tendency you might have to walk over people, it’s ironic and sad.
Gary S:
Right. Because right, if you’re in a nonprofit, you’re not doing it for the money by definition, it’s a nonprofit, you’re not doing it for profit and you’re doing it to help people. Right? The whole idea is we’re doing great work. Some people will say we’re doing God’s work if it’s a Christian nonprofit. Some people will say we’re doing great community work, whatever that is, because the mission that has such significance, to use a Crucible Leadership word. You can ironically, as you said, forget that you got to treat the people on your team right, while you’re taking care of the people that your nonprofit is serving.
Warwick F:
One of the things that I think we’re going to get into is, it’s not an either or position, it’s not people versus task, people versus mission, no matter how important the mission or vision is. It’s a both end. No mission or vision is so important that it is worth mistreating people, firing them unnecessarily, walking all over them. It’s just never worth it. Obviously as a person of faith, I think there’s a lot of scriptures on there. There’s a few, there’s one scripture really talks about basically zeal is good, but make sure it’s serving the Lord, which basically means zeal is good, but make sure you keep it in context and it’s not all about you, which we’ll also get into.
Warwick F:
Probably a favorite one of mine is, there is a scripture on Mark that says, “What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?” More broadly it’s, what good is it if we accomplish the mission at the expense of the team and treading all over them? To me it’s not worth it. And as we’ll get into, ironically, if you treat your team properly, you treasure your team, honor them, that you will have more chance of success, not less. And so it’s basically no vision, no mission is so important that it’s worth treading all over people. It’s just isn’t, and that’s at least my position, if you will.
Gary S:
It’s interesting that we framed this up in the beginning as a conversation about the balance between vision and team. There’s another balance that’s underneath that. I spent a lot of time before we started recording, poking around Harvard Business Review, trying to find some articles that support some of the stuff we’re talking about or talk about some of the stuff that we’re talking about. It’s very interesting, you say often Crucible Leadership makes a key point about the need for leaders to pursue a vision. It’s critical coming out of a crucible to have a vision that you can make reality and that to have a team to do that is also critical.
Gary S:
It’s also interesting that vision’s important to leaders, but vision’s also important to teams. Harvard Business Review did this fascinating study, an ongoing project, serving tens of thousands of working people around the world, and then asked them a simple question. What do you look for and admire in a leader? Not surprisingly they said honesty was number one. Number two was a sense that he or she is looking forward. Right? That’s all about a vision. Teams, right after honesty in leaders, teams, the people who work for you as a leader, they want you to be forward looking. The need to balance is for the health of both the team and the leader. That makes it really high stakes poker, if you will, doesn’t it?
Warwick F:
It does. Really you want to set a vision and as we’ll get into you want enfold your team in that vision. I think more and more people today, I think of Chris Tuff, who we had on the podcast who wrote the book, Millennial Whisperer. He said, millennials, they really, they want authenticity, they want vulnerability, but they also want to feel what they do matters. They want to do work that matters. Yes they want to get treated fairly and paid a competitive rate. It really is a both and. If you want to accomplish your vision, you’ve got to enfold the team. Yes, you want the right people on the bus with the right skills. They have to perform, work hard, that’s all a given. You want to honor your team, but it’s a mutual contract.
Warwick F:
They have to have the skills and the desire to make this vision happen. But bottom line it is a both and. It is task and people from really two main standpoints, the vision, what happened with, unless your team is on board and it’s my proposition that no vision is so worthwhile that it’s worth running all over people. That’s never a vision that’s worthy of accomplish. It certainly won’t help you lead a life of significance or as we talk about a legacy that you can be proud of. You don’t want that eulogy, Fred or Mary accomplished a great vision, but the body count was huge. You don’t want that to be your eulogy. Do you? Who would want that?
Gary S:
Right. They’ll be weeping at that eulogy, but it will be for a different reason.
Warwick F:
Right. Exactly.
Gary S:
I’ve just created Warwick. I’ve just created the first Crucible Leadership, Beyond the Crucible product, a bumper sticker, we can create. Vision needs a team and a team wants a vision.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Amen. Absolutely.
Gary S:
Those two things go together. We can put that on the back of our cars and move along. All of this discussion, this has been preamble for a discussion on how you do that balancing work. How do you balance the task, the mission versus the people? This is a subject that you have written a blog about that either will be at crucibleleadership.com by the time this podcast comes out or will be there shortly. You can check at crucibleleadership.com to see if it’s up there. If it’s not up there, when you look right now, it will be up there soon. But you unpack in that blog, Warwick, seven ways to balance task and people. It’s not, as you said, an either or, it’s they’re altogether, how do you keep it in alignment so you don’t have the painful effects of someone with a bad back? Right?
Gary S:
That you’ve got an alignment so it’s all working out well. Your first point is perhaps the best one to start at, because if you don’t do this, the other six aren’t going to fall into place and that’s, value your team. Why is that so important as we look to balance mission and the team that’s carrying out that mission?
Warwick F:
Part of it is what we were just talking about in terms of legacy, is that no vision, no matter how important it is, is worth sacrificing your team. That’s really just a value judgment. Yes, as I’ve said, you want people that are a good fit, that work hard, that buy-in to the vision, and you want them all to be committed, but just saying victory at all costs, that’s just never a proposition that’s worthwhile. You have to ask yourself, well, what are your values? Is it really victory at all costs, no matter how many people you have to hurt? Very few people would say that. When you build your team, just think, well, what’s really important to you and just make this fundamental decision that I am going to value my team, as the saying goes, I’m going to treasure my employees. I want what they think matters. I want them to feel important.
Gary S:
Right. This idea of, and I didn’t pull any of these articles, but there’s lots of, it’s interesting that a publication like Harvard Business Review, which focuses a lot on research. They have a lot of research that I found this morning on not only how you show appreciation in the workplace as a leader, but why it’s so important. This idea of feeling valued. We all know what that’s like. We all know what it’s to not feel valued by leadership. And that can depress you in both senses of the word. It can make you sad and it can depress your energy and enthusiasm for the job. I’m going to do job description and get by if you don’t feel appreciated. But it can also, when you do feel appreciated, it lights a fire under you.
Gary S:
It’s not that traditional you’re in trouble connotation, right? We’re going to light a fire under that guy. No, it lights a fire under you in a positive way because of positive things that are occurring. That really is the starting pistol for what we’re talking about, is this idea of valuing your team. If you start there, if your team knows that you value them as much as you value the vision. And sometimes you show that you value them more than the vision, not long term necessarily, but there are times that you pause, let’s put a flag in the vision and let’s focus on the people. That leads into your second point that you’ve unpacked in the blog, is that it truly is the mission and your team. They are equal partners in your pursuit, right?
Warwick F:
It is. We had somebody on the podcast a little while ago, Bryan Price, who is a West Point graduate former army officer, and currently leads the Buccino Institute at Seton Hall University. He said in the military, they talk about mission first people always. And obviously in the military lives are literally at stake in terms of how well a mission is conducted in the enemy they’re against. And so it must be a both and. That’s almost the ultimate where lives are in the balance. The irony is, as I think we’ve been alluding to is, if you really care for your team, make sure they’re on board and they are heard, and they are listened to and they contribute to the process and have input into the vision.
Warwick F:
Which I think as we’ve also talked about before, that’s a very brave move to allow your team to have input into the vision. One of the analogies we talk about in the book, which will be coming out later.
Gary S:
There you go. Coming out when, the word?
Warwick F:
October.
Gary S:
And the book that Warwick referred to it was his book called Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance. Out on October 19th. Available where all fine books are sold and even some not so fine books, but Warwick’s is a fine book for sure.
Warwick F:
And so one of the stories we talk about in that book is in Florence, there’s the Michelangelo’s statue of David. And so the analogy we use in Crucible Leadership is when you have a team, you’ve got to be willing to give them the hammer and chisel and say, okay, I’d love your input. If you ask for input, you got to be willing to take at least some of it. And as we also often say, if it’s 80% of your vision with 100% buy-in, it’s better than 100% of your vision with 0% buy-in. And so ironically if you allow your team to contribute to the vision, they will be more bought in and your chance of your vision happening is much greater. And so when we talk about it’s not vision or team, it’s basically unless it’s vision and team, there’s no vision, the vision won’t happen.
Warwick F:
Even if you’re somebody that doesn’t care about people, and if you don’t, you probably shouldn’t be a leader. But if for some incredible reason, you’re a leader, well think of it from your own selfish self interested point of view, which is, if you want your vision to happen, you’ve got to get buy-in from your team. It makes business sense, mission sense. It makes sense in terms of values and honoring people. It just makes sense on every grid you can think of. That’s why I just love what Bryan Price said, it is indeed mission first, people always, it always has to be both.
Gary S:
Right. And if, as you said, when you first brought that up from Bryan, if that is a phrase, is a goal in the military where lives are literally at stake. And if it’s mission, first people always in that serious situation, how much more so when lives usually aren’t at stake in what we’re doing in our leadership. I am going to take a page from my journalism background and ask you a leading question now, which I think will be an on ramp into point three of how to balance task and people. And that is why Warwick do you think that many leaders, some leaders just aren’t that good in showing appreciation, bringing the team along, building a team to help carry out the vision? Why do you think that’s so hard for some leaders?
Warwick F:
I think at the root, it’s ego. Sometimes-
Gary S:
That’s the third point in the blog listeners.
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Gary S:
Check your ego. There you go.
Warwick F:
The E word, ego. Sometimes you have a vision and that’s maybe in the world, it’s a new invention. You see there’s a market made and it’s boy, you really in love with yourself. This piece of technology is going to revolutionize the market. You just feel this is my ticket to the big house, to the nice house, the boat, the lifestyle, all your dreams will be achieved. Even in the nonprofit world, maybe this thing you’re founding can provide clean water in parts of Africa that don’t have it. Maybe it’s a new low cost filtration system or something. It could be for-profit. It could be non-profit. But in either case, you can feel this is important and I’m pretty hot staff.
Warwick F:
Even when you don’t mean to mistreat people, when it’s all about you, we can end up getting short. We can maybe cut relational corners, we can get impatient. It’s like, these folks are letting me down. Maybe I need to cycle through a few dozen senior team members until I find somebody that doesn’t make a mistake, because it’s one strike and you’re out. Because this is too important either because this is going to make me tons of money and if we wait around the competitor might strike. We can’t afford people that only work 23 hours a day. It’s got to be 24 hours a day minimum and no mistakes. They have to say yes to every idea I have because after all I’m never wrong and they’re always wrong.
Warwick F:
Taken to its extreme, ego can be a huge problem of having both team and vision and ego, frankly unchecked can also prove the death knell with business. It’s ironic that when you think about small businesses that become successful, very often, they stall out at the small to medium category, because the founder has so much ego, which can be good for drive and the sense of getting stuff off the ground. But then they can’t bring in professional managers because typically the founder is an entrepreneur and entrepreneurs are rarely good general managers and general managers aren’t always good entrepreneurs. You can’t have all the gifts. Smart entrepreneurs say like, I’m still going to be the visionary.
Warwick F:
I’ll be out there promoting it, selling it, advocating it, but I’m going to leave somebody else to run it a day-to-day. Well, why doesn’t that happen more often? The ego gets in the way, it’s extremely common. Don’t let your ego get in the way.
Gary S:
There’s a great Harvard Business Review article that I found, the headline of which summarizes exactly what you’re saying. Ego is the enemy of good leadership and it lists, it says straight up that overcoming that, getting beyond that temptation to live in ego is as Harvard Business Review puts it, it requires selflessness, reflection and courage. They gave three tips. I want to read these three tips because they’re pretty short, but they’re good. How to help you overcome, A recognize if ego may be a problem and two overcome it. One, consider the perks and privileges you’re being offered in your role. Some of them enable you to do your job effectively, and that’s great, but some of them are simply perks to promote your status and power and ultimately ego.
Gary S:
Consider which of your privileges you can let go of. It could be that reserve parking spot, or it could be a special pass for the elevator. The second point, support, develop and work with people, you touched on this Warwick, who won’t feed your ego. Hire smart people with the confidence to speak up. The last one, I just love everything they say in this third tip on how to sidestep, overcome ego being a challenge for you. Humility and gratitude are the cornerstone of selflessness. Make a habit of taking a moment at the end of each day, to reflect on all the people who were part of making you successful on that day. This helps you develop a natural sense of humility by seeing how you are not the only cause of your success.
Gary S:
End the reflection by actively sending a message of gratitude to those people you identified. Practice those things, and it’s hard to blindly walk with ego being your driver. Isn’t it?
Warwick F:
It really is. It reminds me of a book by Jim Collins, which we also talk about in the book. Good to Great. He did a study based on a number of companies that had 15 years of, okay returns to the stock market followed by 15 years of fantastic returns. They were all driven leaders, but they were also humble. When you ask them keys to success, says well, I just have a great team. It’s almost like I just get out of the way and let my team do their thing. It’s not quite that simple, but they’re all humble. And so great leaders, they do check their ego at the door. They’re not afraid of hiring people that are better, quicker, smarter than they are. And why wouldn’t you be? If you’re all about success, why does it matter if your team is better than you?
Warwick F:
Ironically you can’t be good at all things. Maybe you have somebody that’s fantastic at marketing, sales, manufacturing, research and development. You can’t be the expert at all those things. Nobody can be, but in their field their bound to know more than you will. If they don’t, you’re probably hiring the wrong people in terms of their particular field of expertise. It just makes sense. Ego does get in the way of success. Ego tends to trample on people. I don’t know that people wake up in the morning saying, how many people am I going to chew out today? It’d be like, policeman don’t wake up saying, okay how many people can I give traffic ticket to today? Maybe they do. I’d like to think they don’t.
Gary S:
My dad was a cop, he did have quotas he had to hit, but I don’t know that I don’t know that he woke up thinking that.
Warwick F:
But you don’t want to think how many people can I fire today? It’s like, you’re fired, I just love that. Yeah, you’re fired. It’s like, really? That can’t be your attitude to life. Ego gets in the way of success. It makes poor business and organizational sense. So you definitely got to check your ego at the door if you want to be successful.
Gary S:
That’s point number three. Point number four logically follows off that. And that is focus on the process, not the outcome. And I say that logically follows from what we just discussed, because what we just discussed was the idea of the outcome could be, okay, I’ve got to fire you. I’ve got to hold you accountable. I’ve got to focus on the process, not the outcome. What were you thinking when you wrote that, Warwick?
Warwick F:
Really, it probably goes with ego. You can get so focused on your vision. So manic about it, that it’s got to succeed. It’s got to succeed immediately. Focus on the process might be as good to have a clear vision. It’s good to have a well thought out strategy and you want to have a great team, but you also want to take it a day at a time. You can’t control the results of what’s going to happen. Maybe the economy goes South, maybe the competition’s there, government regulation, there’s all sorts of things in life that can alter the outcome that you desire, the outcome that you want. If you have a good strategy, you have a good team, and really the issue is, what’s my goal for today, for next week, for next month?
Warwick F:
Typically to achieve anything great there’s a process and it can take forever, but don’t be so fixated on the result that you ignore the process, because if you ignore the day-to-day process, well the result and the outcome probably won’t happen. Stay in the now. Have a plan, have a strategy but stay in the now.
Gary S:
This is the moment of every podcast. It doesn’t happen on every podcast, but every podcast it happens on I love, because this is my chance to maybe embarrass you a little. By saying what you just said Warwick, in all honesty and seriousness, what you just said is a good description of what happened in your life after your takeover bid for the Family Media company failed. It was not an overnight process that led to that book that you held up. There was a lot of years, this was in 1990 when the failure took place and your process took a while. Is that fair?
Warwick F:
Yeah. Sometimes you don’t even know what the steps are like, as listeners know I got a job in a local aviation services company in Maryland doing business and financial analysis. Went to an executive coach that did mid career assessment, that said I had a good advisor, a reflective type that maybe being executive coach would be good. All these were way points, but I just, I didn’t quite know where it was going to end up, but I just followed the path. But even this book, this book is 12 years in the making literally. As listeners know, in 2008, the pastor of our church here wanted me to give a talk about basically what I went through and because it’s church, well, I felt God was teaching me through it. Somehow it resonated with people, weeks and months after, even though, I was the only ex media mogul in the church that day, but somehow it resonated.
Warwick F:
Well, okay. So then it took me a few years to write it, because imagine spending time writing about the most painful experiences in your life, in some cases, some of the most dumbest decision. After two or three hours a day, I was done, I needed to recover for the rest of the day before I went to the lion’s den. Let’s relive that pain again. But even once I’d written it, to get it published, chatted to some folks in Australia and for a variety of reasons, maybe it was too close or they wanted more sensational, it didn’t quite work out. Came over, was looking to get it published here.
Warwick F:
That was a whole process. It’s like, well, you need a brand. Okay. I guess, brought in some great brand branding people from, in Denver SIGNAL.csk and yourself from ROAR in terms of public relations and helping me fine tune the book. It was step after step after step. Even the most recent story just over this last year, we signed a book deal with Mount Tabor Media, and Morgan James, almost exactly a year ago, but then we had to condense the book a bit, maybe 20% or so. I had an editor assist me with that. And then you and I went through it page by page, refining it.
Gary S:
More than once, we went page by page several times.
Warwick F:
Oh yeah. And then it’s like, okay, great. Well then we need a book cover. We had somebody who was an expert in cover design and then interior layout, had somebody advise us on that. And then what images do we want? It’s just step after step after step after step. It almost seemed endless. But you just got to say, well, in this case, this mission, this book, this is too important to short circuit. Just the cover, we went through numerous versions to get the right one, and to get the back cover and to get the right quotes, which you, Gary helped with a lot just to help figure out which ones. Good things are worth doing well. And so don’t tread over people and don’t short circuit the process. If you short circuit the process out of impatience and I like to feel I’m actually pretty impatient, good things don’t happen.
Warwick F:
If you value the mission and the vision, follow the process, a step at a time. It’ll be annoying because each step will seem like it takes forever, but it’s worth it. It absolutely is worth it. You’ll have a better product, a better executed vision than if you don’t try to live in the now and live each day.
Gary S:
Right. And the way that you’ve worded this in the blog, and I’ll go back to the way I introduced it, focus on the process, not on the outcome. Let’s apply that. Let’s put that framework over the story that you just told about your own journey. If you at any point in the process leaped forward to the outcome, you wouldn’t hold in your hand what you hold in your hand, you’d hold something in your hand, but it wouldn’t be as good as that is, as focused as that is, as excellent as that is. I want the listener to really grasp this idea. You come out of a crucible, you have a vision, you’re moving to execute it. You have a team there. Take the time to be able to, Warwick says it a lot on this show. Almost every episode he’ll talk about what’s one small step you can take to do X, Y, or Z.
Gary S:
Focus on the process. Focus on those small steps. As Warwick just described, some of it was, hiring a branding firm. Some of it was hiring an editor to help him condense the book and rearrange the chapters a little bit. Any of those steps skipped or rushed would have affected the outcome. So focusing on the process not the outcome ensures a better outcome.
Warwick F:
Let me give you one specific example. Over the last year, one specific step. We went to Morgan James a year ago, the book was about a hundred thousand words, which is not terrible. But they said, look, our preference would be to have it, based on their experience, it’ll be a better book, a tighter book if we can get it somewhere around 80,000. Now, they said to me, we’ll publish as is. We like it. We think it’s good. But we found a good editor, but getting it to 80,000 was going to take, I don’t know, couple months, maybe it was more, I forget. It was somewhere around a couple months. Now I could have said, I’m not willing to wait, let’s just go.
Gary S:
Right. I’ve been waiting 12 years. I want to go now.
Warwick F:
They said, yes. Why not take the win? They said they were willing to publish it. But my attitude was, look, I grew up in newspapers, an 80,000 book is almost always better than a 100,000 book. You cut out the fat, the wastage, if you will. Why would I not want it to be a better book? If it takes a couple months and more rereading and more tinkering let’s do it. But that was a conscious decision. Don’t say yes to the 100,000 just because somebody’s going to say yes. But when they give you good advice and these are experts in their field and it’s like, it will be a better book if we can get it to 80. Thank you. Great. Let’s get it to 80.
Gary S:
Yup. You’re saying that in the context of the journey that will lead to in October, the publication of Crucible Leadership, the book, but it applies to any crucible anyone’s gone through as they build a vision to come back from that crucible and a team to carry it out. Focus on process, not the outcome, point four. That was point four. Point five, here’s another one that’s hard for leaders sometimes, be willing to apologize.
Warwick F:
Here’s the thing is, if you’re a passionate person about your vision and every visionary leader that I know is. If you’re not passionate about the vision, what in the heck are you doing? Just don’t do it. But you have to be passionate about your vision. And pretty much every visionary leader I know that is. Problem with passion is sometimes you get so passionate that you can get short with people. You can get impatient, and unwittingly you can start treading on people, causing problems. And so when that happens, you have to be willing to apologize. You’ve got to be willing to say, you know what, I messed up. I’m sorry. You’ve just got to be willing to do that, because I think your team is going to understand, they are passionate too. But inevitably you are going to make mistakes.
Warwick F:
You’re going to say things you shouldn’t say and accidentally tread on people. When that happens, apologize. We’re human, it will happen, it’s inevitable. Apologize and then you can move on. Don’t apologize and people might start leaving, especially if you do it too much.
Gary S:
Right. Going back to the first point that we talked about here, value your team. That’s one of the ways you show that you value your team, is apology. A real heartfelt apology, not what I call a Janet Jackson apology. If you remember during the Super Bowl a decade or so ago, Janet Jackson had her wardrobe malfunction. And she said, I’m sorry if anybody was offended. That isn’t an apology. She should have said, I’m sorry I did this. Not that.
Warwick F:
One of my pet peeves is the sorry if. Because sorry if means, I did nothing wrong and you’re just overly sensitive. I’m sorry if because you’re so sensitive and weak skinned that it hurt you. That’s almost worse than no apology. No sorry ifs. It never works. It’s salt in the wounds. It’s not a good idea.
Gary S:
And there’s no way to go through life without, we bump into each other in life, right? Figuratively and literally. We all are going to encounter situations where we have to apologize. My dad, I said earlier was a cop. My dad taught me this thing about car accidents. You’re always at fault in some way for a car accident. Even if your car is parked on us on the side of the road and somebody hits you, the cop will give you 3% of the fault because your car was parked there. In other words, it’s hard to go through life, and if you think you’re one of the people that can go through life with never making a mistake that needs an apology, sorry, you are as Fonzie would have said, not apologizing correctly on Happy Days, you are, wro, wro, wro, you’re wrong.
Gary S:
You will encounter situations where you have to apologize, do it, honestly do it with integrity and do it fully, not halfway and not falsely. The sixth point in your blog that we’ll talk about. You talk about recalibrating. After all these five other points have happened, what do you mean by recalibrate at that point?
Warwick F:
Sometimes it can be because you’ve just riden other people and you need to apologize. Sometimes it can be, you’re ego driven, you’re not following the process. You’re not consulting your team. What that means is, it can be you know what folks, I was so focused on the vision, I thought, man, if we don’t get to market soon, we’ll lose our opportunity. We need to get moving because this non profit, maybe it’s something will save lives in other countries. Whatever it is you need to say, not only I’m sorry, but here’s what we’re going to do different. I’m going to consult you more. I want your input more. I want you to feel heard. We talk about creating safe places, well you want to create safe places where people can really feel that they’re valued and their input is important.
Warwick F:
It’s one thing to apologize. But as we’ll get into the final point is, you’ve got to recalibrate and let people know that things will be different and then tell them what is going to be different. That’s absolutely key.
Gary S:
The last point, point seven. The perfect number seven. Point seven is, walk the talk. On all of these things, if you added them all up, as you see them on the blog, when you go to crucibleleadership.com and you see the blog on this subject listener, take those first six steps, add them all up, at the end of the day, step seven is the linchpin. Step seven is the coda. Step seven is the glue that holds it all together. Walk the talk. Unpack that a little bit.
Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely. Some people feel like leadership is about great speeches. They give the one big, great speech and they expect life to change. Well, it’s not. It’s about living it out day-to-day. You’ve got to live your message. And so if you talk about, you know what, we’re going to do it differently. I want to hear your opinions. I want to make sure, maybe it’s not consensus, but I definitely want to hear your input. Somebody comes into your office and say, hey, look, boss, I just have this idea. I’m actually, I’m busy now, come back tomorrow. They come back tomorrow and you’re still busy. Or they offer an idea, and every single time they offer an idea. In fact, every single time, anybody in your team offers an idea over the next three months, it’s always no, but then you keep saying I’m open to your opinions.
Warwick F:
It just, as soon as one of you knuckleheads has an opinion worth listening to, I’ll listen to it. Until then, until you are able to find a brain and a clue, of course, I’m going to ignore you. In fact, I’m close to firing you. But as I said, I treasure my employees and your opinion matters. You’ve got to walk the talk. You’ve got to be able to listen to them. And really one of the final things we talk about in the blog, in that point is, you’ve got to trust the process and you’ve got to trust the outcome. Don’t be so focused on the outcome, that I want to achieve X goals for my business, for my nonprofit. It’s good to have goals and strategies, but sometimes plans change whether it’s the market, the economy or people’s needs change.
Warwick F:
And that’s okay. You’ve got to trust to, whether you’re a person of faith, whether that’s God, fate or the universe, what have you, that if you put your maximum effort in, you feel you’ve got a good plan and a good team. You’ve got to trust the process and trust whatever the outcome happens, because you can’t control the outcome. You can control your effort and your plans and the process and your team, but the precise outcome is not guaranteed. Good things do tend to happen if you’ve got a good team, a good plan and you thought it through, but don’t get so fixated on the outcome, trust the process, trust the team. That is a much better way to go.
Gary S:
The outcome, to say it takes care of itself is a bit of a misnomer because you’re following these seven steps. You’re going back to that initial Harvard Business Review story, I said of what employees want to see in leaders. The first thing was honesty, right? In addition to a vision. You put all those things together and that helps shape the outcome. The outcome doesn’t necessarily take care of itself, your steps, your one small steps that you talk about, your trust the process, the stones in the road as you walk that journey to get your vision into reality, as you walk that journey to take your vision for a book to reality, that helps shape the outcome. If you do it with consistency, if you do it with honesty, if you do it with humility, it leads to a better outcome. Doesn’t it?
Warwick F:
Well, it does. It leads to a legacy that you can be proud of. One thing we talked a bit about beforehand and just been thinking about is, John Fairfax’s legacy. That’s an interesting thing.
Gary S:
John Fairfax, just so we can set it right. John Fairfax is your great, great grandfather. John Fairfax founded the company that was John Fairfax Limited and then became Fairfax Media and had some other names. That’s the company that you launched the take over for that was unsuccessful.
Warwick F:
Indeed, the large 150 year old family media company. He was a person of faith. He was a great businessman, a great husband, a great dad, but there are some things that his employees said about him after he died. But before I get to that, I just want to give you an idea of, just a short story of why he was so beloved by his family and absolutely his employees. In 1841, not that long after he bought the company, Australia got into a huge depression. A lot of prices of commodities were down. A lot of people were laid off. And so while he tried to raise revenue, he told people that he would have to lower the wages of his employees. Now, obviously, in the middle of a depression, they weren’t happy. He basically told them, I have nothing but sympathy for what you’ve gone through.
Warwick F:
The price of bread and board is rising and there are mouths to feed at home. We wouldn’t suggest this under normal times, but these aren’t normal times. Unless we drain, unless we cut costs, both your job and ours will be in great danger. We believe the Sydney Morning Herald can grow and strong. It’d be a great paper and you’ll be proud to be back then, a Herald man. If you accept my proposal, I know in a short while, the depression, we’ll get past this. You’ll have a job and we’ll all do well. He was going to pull out wages pro-rata. It wasn’t like, that the owner gets everything. Basically he said, this is the only way we can weather the storm.
Warwick F:
They thought about it and they agreed. While a lot of other folks who are out of work, they still had jobs, a job is better than no job. And so what is the result of all of this? When he died in 1877, they praised his conscientious desire at the realization of a high ideal. They said that, we feel in his departure, we have lost a kind employer and a valued friend. How many employees say about their boss that he or she was a kind employer and a valued friend? It’s extremely rare. And just in terms of his legacy, picture this, if this was at your funeral. At the church he went to, Pitt Street Congregational Church.
Warwick F:
The pastor chose this text from 2 Samuel, in the King James it goes, Know ye not that there is a prince and a great man fallen this day in Israel? Wouldn’t you like that to be your legacy? Know that today that there was a great man, a great woman this day who has died. If somebody who’s a pastor is going to say that about you in church, they’re probably not going to define being a great man, a woman as how much money you’ve earned or how many titles you have or accolades, it’s probably going to be more because of your character. When I think about somebody being vision and team, the company grew to be 150 year old huge company, but he treated his employees well, and the company grew. It is both end and I think John Fairfax’s legacy is emblematic of really what we’re talking about here.
Gary S:
Not just as an emblematic, but it’s a roadmap. The story that you just told is a roadmap of everything that we’ve just discussed. I want to suggest listener that after I read what I’m about to read, I go through it, you rewind the podcast and listen and see if I’m not right. Because I believe that story that you just told about your great-great-grandfather encompasses all seven points that we’ve just been talking about. One, value your team, John Fairfax did. Two, it’s the mission and your team, right? He kept the team in mind, as well as the mission of having the greatest newspaper that he could have. Check your ego. There’s not a lot of ego in a leader who doesn’t take all the money for himself in hard times, he gives that money. He’s one of the team. He doesn’t put himself above the team.
Gary S:
Focus on the process, not the outcome, that whole letter that you described, he wrote to the team about, we have to take a cut in wages, that is process, not outcome. He suggested an outcome, but he emphasized process was going to get them there. Be willing to apologize, there may not be an apology per se in the midst of what he said, but he certainly, in some ways was apologetic about the fact that he had to cut their-
Warwick F:
He was certainly showing empathy.
Gary S:
Correct. Correct. His demeanor was empathetic and apologetic and I wish I didn’t have to do this. Number six, recalibrate, talk to the team and let them know that moving forward, it must be the vision and the team. He did that in that letter. Seven, I’ve heard you say it Warwick a dozen times, if I’ve heard you say it once, rarely, never have you seen more a businessman for Christ than John Fairfax. John Fairfax, walked the talk. What you just explained in that story emphasized that.
Warwick F:
The other thing since you mentioned that is, on his 50th birthday, his family gave him this huge silver centerpiece, which is still in the family. I’m sure they had to order it from England. They just basically, they admired and loved their dad so much. So sometimes these visionaries they ignore their families on the way up. The vision is so important. He did not. When they talk about the deep respect they, his children had for his character and his unchanging parental love. Talked about affection and esteem, John’s reply was, “Your gift is elegant and costly. Your letter is precious.” The gift was nice, but what mattered more than the gift was the love of his kids. That’s a life well lived when you can receive that kind of love and affection from your family. Doesn’t often happen for successful businessmen and women.
Gary S:
Right. And that’s a businessman who knew the value of balancing vision and mission with team and knew how to carry that out. To help listeners know where to move next. One of the things that you do in every blog you write, is that the end, you have questions for reflection. I thought we’d leave listeners this week with what I thought was a great first suggestion that goes in line with what you say all the time about, what’s one small step you can take? You say the first reflection question in your blog is, assess the state of your team. Are they committed to the vision and eager for the journey ahead? Or do they seem disheartened and ready to check out?
Gary S:
You talk also in the book, Crucible Leadership, out October 19th, you talk in the book about doing 360 evaluations and asking people who work for you, how you’re doing. Talk to the listener a little bit about if they take this first step, why is it important to assess where the team’s at and then move forward?
Warwick F:
Well, you certainly got to check your ego at the door. You’ve got to be willing to ask, what do you think of the vision? Well, you ask that question, they might say, well, I think it’s dumb. But you got to be willing to ask that. How do you feel about it? How do you feel your role is? Are you excited about it? They might say, I don’t know. It depends how much damage you’ve done, it might take a while to create a place where they feel it’s safe to be heard. But certainly 360s can be part of that. The wise leader, and 360 is basically meaning the people above you, people who are your peers and people who are below you. And so depending on where you are in the management chain, the smart leaders listen to that.
Warwick F:
Because if everybody around you says, Joe or Mary, they’re impatient, impulsive, and don’t know how to listen, they could all be wrong, but they’re probably not. Perception is reality. If everybody around you has a certain perception, the wise leader says it must be right, no matter what I think. Perception is reality. If everybody thinks I’m this hot headed person that never listens, I probably am. So then try and figure out what you can do different. This can definitely work if you’re willing to be humble enough to listen and really listen. And that can be a challenge frankly for many leaders. 360 degree feedback is useless if a leader will say, I know who that is. They never liked me. Even though it’s meant to be anonymous, I’ve seen that. It’s very discouraging. Assess the state of your team, but check that your ego at the door before you do that.
Gary S:
And that I’ve learned through decades in the communication businesses, when the plane lands and the final word has been spoken on a subject. Listener, thank you for spending time with us on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. As always Warwick and I would ask, visit crucibleleadership.com, poke around. There’s some great resources there. You can learn more about the book there when you go visit. I’m going to put that stake in the ground and say, that’s going to be already up on the website by the time this podcast comes out. If I’m wrong, it’ll be there soon, but I don’t think I’ll be wrong. I think it will be there for you. Remember until the next time that we’re together listener, a crucible experience can be painful. We know it is painful. Warwick has gone through them.
Gary S:
He’s talked about them often. I’ve gone through them. You’ve gone through them. Your failures and setbacks can be soul crushing in some cases, very painful. But remember this, your crucible experiences are not the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons from them, if you apply those lessons moving forward, one step at a time. If you take that view of not the destination right now, but the journey. If you walk that journey with the lessons you learned from your crucible, the chapter that you’re writing can be the most rewarding and memorable chapter of your life, because where it leads you is to a life of significance.
Accomplishing a vision is not easy. Accomplishing a great and noble vision is harder still. When you have a vision that you feel so passionate about that you would give your life to, failure is not an option. Too many people are depending on you. It could be your customers or your shareholders. If you are leading a non-profit, there could be those that are in dire need for the care that your organization can give them. How can you disappoint such people?
When the stakes are highest, when the cause of the mission seems vital, ironically that’s where people can be most at risk and most vulnerable. How can that be? There is a saying, “The path to hell is paved with good intentions.” In our desire to accomplish a worthy mission, sometimes people can be the casualty. We can be short with them. If they aren’t meeting our expectations, we sideline them or get rid of them. We expect people to work long hours. The standard is perfection. Anything less is just not good enough. Don’t they realize that in some cases, for instance with a worthy nonprofit, that lives are at stake? We don’t have time to mollycoddle our team. They will have to shape up, or find work elsewhere. This cause, this crusade, is too important.
Ironically, crucible leaders, those men and women who have come out of the ashes of a crucible experience, can be most at risk. Often a crucible leader’s vision is formed from what he or she went through in a crucible. Crucible leaders may not want anyone to suffer the way they suffered. They can have almost a missional zeal to accomplish their vision. Zeal is good, but beware a zeal that tramples people on the way.
There is a Scripture in Mark that says, “What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?” This has a particular context in the Bible, but more broadly the point here is that what good is it if we accomplish our mission at the expense of trampling on our team, the people who work with us?
Here are some thoughts on balancing the task, the mission, and the people who help you carry it out.
1. Value your team.
No vision, no matter how important it is, is worth sacrificing your team. That does not mean putting up with people who don’t buy into your vision, are not working hard, and are a poor fit for the position they are in. Yes, you want a committed team who are as passionate as you are about the vision. But it is dangerous to say, “Victory at all costs!” Trampling on people to accomplish your vision is not worth it.
2. It is the mission and your team.
Both are important. Bryan Price, a West Point graduate, former army officer and currently the director of the Buccino Institute at Seton Hall University, told me this philosophy from the U.S. military: “Mission first, people always.” As leaders we have to balance achieving the mission and making our visions reality, with caring for our people. It is a both, and. It must be a both, and. Ironically, if we value our team, listen to them and care for them, the chance of our vision becoming a reality is greater not less. If you care about your vision, care about your people.
3. Check your ego.
Sometimes achieving our vision can be wrapped up in our ego. We want redemption, we want retribution. We want success or achievement. We want self-respect. If our motivation is colored by such emotions, it can lead us to treat people in ways we would not want to treat them; and frankly we may end up treating people in ways that go against our fundamental beliefs and values.
4. Focus on the process, not the outcome.
If you have a clear vision, a well thought-out strategy and a great team, focus on what you have to do today, this week, this month. You cannot control the results, however much you try, and however much you feel that the success of your mission is vital. You may well believe that your vision has to become reality, that so many people are depending on this. But in life, much is beyond our control. We can’t control the economy, or what the competition does, or the impact of shifts in government policy or what potential consumers or users’ value. If we have done our best with a clear vision, a great strategy and a fantastic team, that has to be enough.
5. Be willing to apologize.
Sometimes we get so passionate about our vision that it can be easy to get short with people and trample on them in our zeal to accomplish the vision. We are all human. When we misstep, as we all inevitably will, that is when we need to apologize and help people understand that in our passion for the vision we sometimes get carried away. If you have a team that is also passionate about the vision, they will understand.
6. Talk to your team and let them know that moving forward it must be the vision and the team.
You want to hear their perspective. Let them know that their opinions do matter. Create a safe place where people feel heard and can share their opinions.
7. Walk the talk.
Great speeches about the mission, unity and teamwork are all good. But you have to live your message. You have to almost daily tell yourself to let go and not hold on too tightly. There is a phrase, “Let go and let God.” More broadly, this means doing our best, but not wrapping up our self-worth in the outcome. Trust to God, fate or the universe, that if we and our team are doing their best, that what is meant to happen will happen.
Your vision matters. It may have emerged from the ashes of a soul-crushing crucible that you have come out of. You genuinely want to make a difference in the world. You want to help people. But if in trying to help people, you run over them, is it all really worth it? The answer is no.
By striving for a noble vision and caring for your team along the way, the journey towards achieving your vision will be worth it. If you are hoping for a life of significance, a life on purpose that is dedicated to serving others, a life that will bring you joy and fulfillment, a life that will give you a legacy that you and those that love you can be proud of, then be as committed to your team as you are to your vision.
Reflection
Assess the state of your team. Are they committed to the vision and eager for the journey ahead, or do they seem disheartened and ready to check out?
Have some honest conversations with your team. Let them know that they are just as important as achieving the vision, no matter how noble you and they feel the vision is.
Walk the talk. Check your ego at the door. Let go of the outcome. “Let go and let God.”
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Despite being born with small hands and shortened ligaments that left him unable to even hold a cup as a boy, Wael Farouk has diligently – some would say miraculously — carved out a career as a celebrated concert pianist. This spring, in fact, he performed Rachmaninoff’s piano concerti Nos. 1, 2 and 3 in one evening — the first time the prodigious musical feat has been done. Farouk lives and works in Wisconsin, where he is an assistant professor of piano and director of the Keyboard Studies at Carthage College in Kenosha. In this conversation with Warwick, Farouk explains how he has embraced his physical limitations, and endured the crucible of religious persecution as a Coptic Christian in his native Egypt, because of his strong belief that it is through what he calls “rough waters” that he improves and progresses.
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Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Wael F:
I placed the highest in terms of those entrance exams, but because of my hand size, the Dean of the conservatory, who was an excellent pianist told my father, “There is not even a 1% chance in heaven that your son will be a pianist. These hands are not meant for the piano. You are going to destroy him psychologically, physically. This is not for him. He should be a doctor, he should be a lawyer, should be something else, but definitely not that.”
Gary S:
Those are crushing words for anyone to hear as they pursue their passion and their gifting. Imagine what they could have done to our guest this week, who was just eight years old when they were spoken to him. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
Thankfully for lovers of classical music, Wael Farouk did not take that assessment of his potential to heart. Despite being born with small hands and shortened ligaments that left him unable to even hold a cup as a boy, he has diligently, some would say, miraculously carved out a career as a celebrated concert pianist. In fact, Warwick interviewed him on the eve of the most challenging performance of his career, presenting Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concerto numbers, one, two and three in a single evening.
Gary S:
As you’ll hear from their discussion, Wael has embraced his physical limitations and endured the crucible of religious persecution as a Coptic Christian in his native Egypt, because of his strong belief that it is through what he calls, rough waters that he improves and progresses.
Warwick F:
Wael, thank you so much for being here. Just to have somebody of your, I don’t know what… Maybe passion, and love, and talent for playing music and just bringing music to future generations or current generations and future generations. It’s really a gift that you have and that you’re giving. But I’d like to go back to, you were born in Egypt, I understand, and from a Coptic Christian family.
Warwick F:
Talk a bit about growing up because I’m sure life is not easy growing up in that environment, but it was particularly challenging for you because you had some physical challenges from birth. You’ve had challenges that other kids you knew didn’t have that you played with. So talk a bit about growing up in Egypt and just some of those challenges in the environment that you had.
Wael F:
Sure, I’d be happy to. As you mentioned, I was born and grew up a Coptic Christian in Egypt. It is not the easiest environment let’s say, to grow up and being a Christian, especially in the ’80s. However, both my parents who grew up in the ’40s and ’50s had even more challenges if you could imagine. But without that kind of challenges, I was born with very unusual eyes and hands situations that it took literally years and decades for me to understand and for my parents to understand what are they.
Wael F:
For example, my hands were very, very unusually small. I have very short finger ligaments, till this day, I am unable to make a fist. It’s challenging for me to do some buttons and to open jars and stuff like that. It took me several years to be able to put on my own contact lenses because before that, due to my eye condition, I used to wear those, what do you call them? Coke bottles bottom. Very, very, very thick glasses right –
Warwick F:
Right.
Wael F:
In regards to my eyes, I was born with my both inner lenses are completely detached from their holding case. And they are actually shifted, they are tilted. And the ligaments holding them are very… The medical term that I was given by my ophthalmologist, they are practically torn, so they’re not really there. So bending down, running, skipping, jumping is off of the table. I am one of the few lucky people that their doctor told them, “You should never exercise,” because of that.
Wael F:
However, again, growing up in Egypt in the ’80s, it was in a way difficult to place or to really understand and unravel all of these issues. I seem like a normal child, yes. Small in build and in size, but the hand situation is really what I am thankful for, it got me where I am today. Because around two-and-a-half years old, when my parents really realized that I am an unable to use my hands on any level, unable to hold bottles, cups, spoons, et cetera, and not realizing my poor eyesight, I wasn’t even seeing where I’m dropping things.
Wael F:
So my dad took me to a physician a little bit before my third birthday and saying, “He cannot really use his hands, is there something that can be done?” The fourth and fifth fingers on both hands are quite curved, not really straight. And a wise old doctor said, “You absolutely leave him alone. You don’t do anything to those hands. Let him practice it somehow, get him a rubber ball, get him a toy where it’s involves a lot of pulling and grabbing, that type of thing. Let there be no injections, no surgeries, just let it be natural. He’s born like that for a reason and let it be.”
Wael F:
Luckily my dad, both my parents really knew nothing about music, nothing about classical music per se, because it is not the most popular language in Egypt as you can imagine. He got me for my third birthday a teeny tiny toy piano. He thought, all right, here is something for his hand to use, here is something for… He doesn’t have to carry, he doesn’t have to drop it, et cetera. So since the age of three, that little toy piano became my best friend, my companion in a way.
Wael F:
Fast forward, then a little bit by the age of five, I started playing at churches because I was in a way able to play tunes that I could hear on the radio or on TV. We were devoted church goers, so I always had hymns and Coptic chants on my head, so I was able to play that on the keyboard, no problem. And of course, I got promoted a little bit, so I ended up getting a bigger keyboard on my fourth birthday, and then a bigger one on my fifth birthday, et cetera.
Wael F:
By the age I was six, I was playing regularly for the Coptic pope weekly services in the main cathedral, which is a big deal in many ways, because in the Coptic church they don’t really allow instrumental music. It is very monophonic, it is very just only human voices and that’s it. So being really the only person who’s allowed to play an instrument and a digital instrument that is, was quite something back then.
Wael F:
Anyway, that was my early experience with music. And by six or seven, I had to get those very, very, very thick glasses that in a way prevented me from being outside playing, but I still was very happy, content, practicing my music. By the age of eight, several people who heard me and that my father had said, “He should be really studying seriously because there is something there and he can have a future in music. You should take him to this place that’s called The Conservatory and he should enroll there and sure.”
Wael F:
Anyway, my dad took me there one day and we learned that there is something called entrance exams, and then there is a panel, and you have to… They test your ear, and if you have a good musical pitch, et cetera, they look at your hand, et cetera. So I placed highest in terms of those entrance exams, but because of my hand size, the Dean of The Conservatory, who was an excellent pianist told my father, “There is not even a 1% chance in heaven that your son will be a pianist. These hands are not meant for the piano.
Wael F:
You are going to destroy him psychologically, physically. This is not for him. He should be a doctor, he should be a lawyer, he should be something else, but definitely not that.” My dad who also grew up Coptic Egyptian, but very, very hard work. He was the first in his family to go to college. When he was six, his father left the family of five and my dad worked two jobs when he was in elementary school, supporting the family.
Wael F:
Often going down to the streets, studying under a lamppost because they did not have an electricity. He told the Dean, “If you say his talented, then you should give him a chance.” And that was it in a way. They gave me a three-month trial period, a grace period and they really tried to make those three months very demanding so I would just drop the ball and quit. Basically they expected me to do the work of three years in those three months.
Wael F:
But being stubborn, being encouraged by my dad who has incredible work ethic and life experience, I was able to stay. I graduated with the top marks in the history of the school. And those professors who told my dad, “He will never be a pianist,” they all come to my concerts when I go back to Egypt. Perform annually with the symphony and they’re all very supportive and are comfortable saying, “We are very glad that you proved us wrong.”
Warwick F:
That is a remarkable story. There’s just so many fascinating elements. One of the things, obviously, as you look back, you were given a lot of challenges, but you were also perhaps given a gift in your family, in your parents. Because certainly in many cultures and certainly in days gone by, I think of… Being back in the era of Franklin Roosevelt who had polio, back then it was considered, we’re talking before the ’50s and it was almost shameful.
Warwick F:
If you had polio, somehow it was your fault and you were meant to sit inside and do nothing, and it was just… And so I don’t know about in the culture you grew up in, but sometimes when you have a challenge, rather than helping, it’s like you just need to be quiet, and just be inside, and not really doing anything. I don’t know if that was true in the culture you grew up in, but your parents weren’t like that. Your parents were saying, “No, we will do our level best to help Wael. To help him have a good life.”
Warwick F:
Not every parent would have approached it with the level of determination and encouragement as your parents and your dad did.
Wael F:
Absolutely. And I cannot agree more. I can give you examples from here till next month, but unfortunately we don’t have time. But my parents did not have much money to begin with. They still wanted to make sure that we had the best education, my brother and I. My parents sold items, so they can mortgage a piano for me when I went to the conservatory, which I did not get a piano till my fifth year with… I did not have an instrument to practice at home, which is very unusual.
Wael F:
All the way through, they were extremely supportive, extremely encouraging, extremely… But what I appreciate more now being a parent, that they didn’t try to put me in a bottle. They didn’t shun me from the world and try to overprotect me or over shelter me, which would have had understandable reasons, but what have had also repercussions later on. But they are very supportive, all the way till my mother’s last breath.
Wael F:
She was a very helpful, very encouraging, would not let you that this is causing somebody else’s pain. Never once worried about what I am doing. Never once saying, “What is this classical music stuff? What is this piano thing? Why don’t you just get a job in the government or do whatever.” Used to practice 13, 14, 15 hours a day in my teens, they never disturbed me once. They never bothered me once. They never said, “You should take a break and go watch TV or go to the movies. Or why don’t you have…” None whatsoever.
Wael F:
It was providential and I think without my parents, you summarize this yourself, without my parents, I wouldn’t have been here. And I cannot imagine what other life I would have rather have.
Warwick F:
And you raise such a good point that sometimes when you have these challenges, your parents understandably, they want to protect you, keep you safe, put you in like a little cotton ball or something. Which they might have the best of motives, but that’s not helpful. You want to help people have not a normal life because what’s normal? But live with other people. And I think about that doctor, there’s a lot of doctors that would either have said, “Oh, there’s no hope. Or we’re got to do all the surgery,”
Warwick F:
But yet you’ve had a doctor that was wise enough to say, “You know what? Don’t touch him. No injections, let him be. Let him use the hands.” That also was providential. Right? You could have had other doctors that would have done, I don’t know, maybe terrible things.
Wael F:
Absolutely. Both him and my other eye doctor, they didn’t really have, again, the latest x-ray technology, they didn’t run tests. They didn’t use me as a study case, they didn’t whatever. Again, I was three, so I barely remember the incident. With my ophthalmologist whom I saw a few years later, I remember a little more of that. But as you said, there are incidents in your life that you go back and you say, “I’m really, really thankful for that.”
Wael F:
And speaking of which, ironically, almost 10 days ago, I got an email from the president of the American Association of Hand Surgeons who said, “I read an article about you and I got to hear some of your recordings. And by the way, Rachmaninoff happens to be my favorite composer as well. May we invite you to be our featured guest speaker in our annual conference in California so you can speak to the hand surgeons and they can… They probably have couple of questions for you. So they promise, we’re not going to do anything for your hands, just look at that and just ask you a few questions.” Kind of a funny coincidence.
Warwick F:
I suppose they’d be tempting to say, “Look, I respect what you do, but don’t be too quick to operate.”
Wael F:
Right. Exactly.
Warwick F:
I guess another question I have is, again, obviously it’s providential that your dad could’ve said, “Okay, a little rubber ball. Okay, that’d be good. Just throw it up against the wall and your room and hand-eye coordination,” or I don’t know quite what, but somehow he picked a piano. And what was it? Because very often as you would know better than me, if you’re musical, there’s a history of music in your family. I don’t know, it’s not always, but it’s so often the case.
Warwick F:
Whether it’s genetic, or cultural, or both, but in your case, there weren’t other examples of that. So talk about from age three through five, what about the piano and music just fascinated you so much so that from there or through the teens, you were playing 12, 14 hours a day. What about music, the piano just captured your heart, if you will?
Wael F:
That’s an excellent question. I think my parents, my dad, especially always loved music and wanted to study music himself, but instead he ended up in the military and getting a degree in accountant. It’s interesting, with music specially or any form of arts that one specializes in from a young age, you see all of those angles of life as if you are going on a merry-go-round in a way.
Wael F:
And it all centers around this subject, but however, during different stages in your life, your relationship with it, not necessarily change, but the frame of it really change. Between three and five, that was my hobby, that was my play time. That’s what I just did. From five to eight, it became more exposure period, if you will. I was playing on TV almost every week, I played in almost all of the churches in Cairo, which there are a lot of churches.
Wael F:
And when I started studying at The Conservatory, I realized, again, thanks to another wonderful parent, if you will. One of my teachers who really told me the fact early on. He said, “Listen, you have a disadvantage with your hands, but if you want to be a professional pianist, this is a serious job. You need to work eight to nine hours a day, just like your dad goes to work eight to nine hours a day. This is not a funny business. This is not a hobby.”
Wael F:
Obviously he was very serious. He was Russian and he was really one of the best teachers in the world. And I am thankful for that, because not only he gave me the facts straight, but he said, “It’s very difficult to be a pianist here, listen to this we’re recording.” And that recording was Rachmaninoff Third Piano Centerto. And then I listened to it and then the next day I was just a different person. I went to him, I said, “I have to play that piece one day.”
Wael F:
This is when I was 13 or so and he said, “No way in heaven. I am twice as big as you are, my hands are three times bigger than you. I still don’t have the courage to play a piece like that.” And again, being stubborn being not bothering much with somebody telling you what you can or cannot do. That’s when I worked my tails off for 14, 15 hours a day and three or four years later here I am playing, that was Cairo Symphony, first Egyptian.
Wael F:
And that piece, it still runs in my life till now, till next week, as you know about this big project we are doing. And if it wasn’t for Rachmaninoff piece that was the hardest, really the Mount Everest of the repertoire, again, I would probably then continue to be a pianist. I wouldn’t be where I am today. I didn’t find the urge of provoking success from yourself. And I think that’s one of the things that you and Gary mentioned in your introduction, these challenges, these difficulties, these crucibles, they are there because really we need them in many ways.
Wael F:
They provoke success in you, they teach you more about yourself. They teach you more about life. And if there are closed doors, they direct you to the open doors, which ultimately end up being the right one for you. And some people have the concept or at least the naive hope that once they experience one or two difficulties in life, that’s it, and then your career is set, your path is set, and then you are on smooth water for… It’s absolutely not.
Wael F:
There are certain things that gives you the challenge, and gives you the option, and give you the choice. Whether you let them define you and to be, I don’t want to say a victim of, because I don’t use this word lightly to be just a reactionary in your life, in your decisions, in what to choose to do, what you choose to represent, in what you choose your life’s work to be about. Or you can make it work for what you want to accomplish and you find it as an opportunity.
Wael F:
And it also teaches you to be grateful because without having sufferings, without having challenges, if you are handed everything so easily, so effortlessly, the concept of being grateful, the concept of responsibility, the concept of working hard, even harder to protect what you gained and what you achieved, I don’t think it crystallizes that as much.
Warwick F:
You said so many profound things there, hard to know where to start, but yeah, it’s almost without the darkness, you don’t appreciate the light. Without the challenges in life, it’s hard to be grateful if life is always perfect. Some young people have been through some challenges, I know you teach in Carthage College, but there’ll be some people that grew up in great families. They’re not particularly poor and everything’s fine. Maybe life isn’t tough right now, but it will be, nobody goes through life without any challenges.
Warwick F:
But just so many things that are remarkable about your story and that it’s hard. Nobody thinks of a crucible as a gift, but sometimes there can be a gift amidst the pain, nobody wants those. But when you think about it, if you had the same physical attributes as a lot of your friends, maybe would have played soccer or thrown a ball, or who knows? Or become a doctor, a lawyer, which nothing wrong with that, that’s an honorable profession.
Warwick F:
But when there’s so many things that you can’t do, whether it’s physically or worried about detached retina, it’s like, “What can I do?” It’s pretty limited right there. Right? I have this piano and I can do that well and it gives me joy. Sometimes narrowing the options is a blessing amidst the pain. Does that make sense? You wouldn’t have designed your life that way, but yet if you’d had all these other choices, maybe you never would have played the piano. Right?
Wael F:
Absolutely. Rocks directs water and determines in a way where the current is going, where the… but also river carves its own way. And even though sometimes you try to reverse its directions, it doesn’t always go your way. But I am a firm believer that because of my faith, not only again, thanks to my family, but to where I am today and some of the incidents that both my family and I were experiencing over the past few years.
Wael F:
It brings some comfort at least that there is a pattern in one’s life that despite challenges, despite, you won’t call it persecution, oppression, this or that, you know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You know that challenges make you stronger, they make you learn about yourself. And I think it is a gift for anybody who is a teacher, because it’s one thing to teach information, to teach digits, to teach… You play the right notes, you play the right rhythm. You read the style of Baroque or classical. This is all peanuts. This is all peanuts.
Wael F:
What you teach about life is really what makes or breaks a person and we need more and more of that.
Gary S:
I want to jump in at this point, if I can and do a couple of things. One, the story that you referred to that kicked off some of the media coverage that you’ve been giving is in the local newspaper, the Kenosha News. And I’m just going to take this opportunity to say to listeners, who’ve heard us talk to at least four people from Australia like Warwick that Wael and I both live in Kenosha, Wisconsin. So I was thrilled when I read his story in the local newspaper one Saturday morning.
Gary S:
I got ahold of Warwick immediate and said, “This gentlemen will be fantastic for our podcast.” But one of the things, Wael that you said in that story, goes along with what you were just talking about. And also gets to the other source of strength that you found. And you said this in that story, “When my parents realized my hand disabilities and later learned when I was seven that I have very severe disability with my eyes and vision, they always prayed and told me that they trusted that God had a very good reason why He made me like this and I am in His hands.
Gary S:
My family and my faith taught me that God will never allow evil to hurt me, and that everything will be for my good and for His glory.” That’s part of your perspective, your faith informs your perspective that these things that are crucibles are meant not for evil, but for good in your life.
Wael F:
Absolutely, and I am so glad that you brought this up. Psalm 23, for example that I tried to build my life on. I think over and over again, because we are doubtful and we also forget quickly. And we are very sensitive to negative experiences, and we are very sensitive to these challenges and sufferings. But remembering, as I was saying earlier, remembering that there is a pattern, remembering that you will always be delivered.
Wael F:
And remembering that gold is tested with fire and you are more refined at the end is something I look forward to. And if I may read you a small verse from probably my favorite hymn, if that’s okay. I think it will-
Warwick F:
Yes please.
Wael F:
… encapsulate what I’m trying more accurately. Says, “Make me a captive, Lord and then I shall be free; force me to render up my sword, and I shall conqueror be. I sink in life’s alarms when by myself I stand. Imprison me within Thine arms and strong shall be my hand.”
Warwick F:
What hymn was that?
Wael F:
It’s an old from the Presbyterian cannon. I’m happy to share with you the entire link later.
Warwick F:
No, that’s awesome. It’s funny, I think also of Joseph’s story that obviously you can probably identify with him. He went to Egypt and suffered persecution there and there’s this great line, I think it’s in Genesis 50, which I know you’re very familiar with is, he talks about, “They meant it for evil and God meant it for good.” And for the listeners who may not be familiar with the story, Joseph was a little bit arrogant, but full of himself when he was young and his brothers got a bit jealous, threw him in a pit and eventually sold him into slavery.
Warwick F:
And he was falsely accused in Egypt of doing things he didn’t, but eventually he found favor with the Pharaoh and life turned around. But he could have been angry and bitter when he met his brothers for what they did, which was sometimes we don’t fully appreciate what the Bible says. It’s a horrific thing to be sold into slavery at all, but by your family? It’s just unthinkable. But yet he wasn’t bitter and angry. That’s amazing to me.
Warwick F:
So as I look at some of the things you’ve been through, I sense both with you and your family, I’m guessing there wasn’t a whole lot of bitterness. You haven’t gone into detail, but I know I’m sure life for Coptic Christians in Egypt and even today, you read about over the last several years, bombings, and persecution, and sadly human beings’ intolerance towards each other. It’s hard to fathom or understand, but it’s somewhat universal, but yet I don’t sense a whole lot of bitterness.
Warwick F:
I may be wrong, as I often say, there’s a difference between condoning and forgiving. You can condemn and not condone and hope that justice will prevail at the same time and not let bitterness destroy you. If that makes sense.
Wael F:
Absolutely. And I very much would like to clarify as I did in the Kenosha article that since 2014, this picture is radically changing. The current president who’s been very, very good to Christians, probably the first in the history of this country that went through so much. Christians now are being, not only respected and protected, and they’re asked their input in the constitution. And your religion is no longer required to be listed in your ID or in things like that.
Wael F:
However, the theme I decided to give this project, which I’m happy to call it probably the most important concert I am about to give both artistically, humanly and personally. Because these recent events that happened in my life, it actually did not have to do much with Egypt, but it has to do much with my experience being here in the States. It brings a familiarity in because you are treated based on what you represent, or whom you are, or where are you from rather than your work.
Wael F:
Which of course, the United States always represented for me and my family, this shelter, this sanctuary. And what is written under Statue of Liberty is something, to be honest, I thought I would never experience here in this again, great country that I am proud to call my adopted country. But it was surprising in a way, it was shocking, I could say. It was unexpected, but at the same time being in it for three, four, five years now, I am reminded of a familiar tune, if you will.
Wael F:
I am hopeful as I was guided through many, many complicated path in my earlier life that this also will prevail and things will end up positively and will end up both for me and for what I represent in the right way.
Warwick F:
Obviously to whatever level you’re comfortable with, just help us understand a little bit about some of these more recent challenges.
Wael F:
Sure. As you know and I would like to share this with our listeners, the concert that I am giving next week on April 8th, we’re playing three Rachmaninoff Concerti in one evening numbers, one, two, and three. And number three alone, I mentioned a little bit of my background, but number three alone is undisputedly nicknamed as the Mount Everest of the piano literature. So to play this one on its own is already nerve-wracking enough, but to play also the other two musical mountains, the first and the second piano concerto right before that is really an experience that first of all is unprecedented and an experience for me that I’ll never forget.
Wael F:
But I wanted to tie this into a theme of not only what I was going through personally, but also what the country seems to be going through lately. The three musical mountains to overcoming three social injustices; persecution, oppression, and discrimination. I am comfortable sharing few backgrounds, few details. In terms of-
Gary S:
Can I jump in because I don’t want to interrupt you when you get into that, but I want listeners to understand, you probably got really sad when Wael said April 8th and you’re like, this isn’t airing until after that, I can’t hear it. Yes, you can. Look at the show notes. This will be on a live stream link that you can listen to up until June 15th. So you will have the chance to hear his performance.
Gary S:
So please don’t be saddened by the fact that as we’re recording this, he is yet to perform, he will perform, it will be online, you can see it then. I just wanted to make sure that people knew that so they didn’t miss it.
Wael F:
Thank you so much for clarifying that. I appreciate that.
Gary S:
In fact, through the miracle of post-production editing, we’re going to give you a very slight snippet of Wael’s virtuosity right now. Here’s a short clip of his performance of Rachmaninoff’s Concerto with the new Philharmonic orchestra from Illinois College of DuPage
Wael F:
I grew up expected in Egypt that I would be persecuted for being a Christian. I would have opportunities taken away from me, even though you earned them. You expected that you will be bullied, that you’ll even be failed and to have somebody else who was not a Coptic Christian that should be in the lead rather than whatever. Your work is trying to be obstructed, blocking your foreign tours just because, why should you get them because you deserve them? Something like that.
Wael F:
All of this was expected. However, this is not really expected here, and definitely not because of what you represent in terms of standing up for what you believe is correct, for standing up against those who abuse their powers. And standing up against those who bully you and those who discriminate you, and openly treat you differently just because you are from a different part of the world or because of what you believe in, or because you’re your work, or because your work speaks for itself.
Wael F:
And because you are not only successful in what you do, but that in a way could shine bad light on what they do or in terms of… I don’t want to draw a comparison, but discrimination or oppression really has no logic. So you don’t really need anything to logically trigger these actions, these decisions. I persevered, I am still being patient and still going through the right channels. My wife’s support’s is immense, my family support is immense.
Wael F:
There are difficult moments, a lot of hurt both physically, mentally, emotionally, but you know these scars are also going to be good for the future and you get over them one way or another with time, with therapy, with whatever it is. It is a battle I am happy to have, especially where it comes to defining who you are and what you represent or what you want your work to be about.
Wael F:
With that, I decided that will be fitting, and again, providential that this is the one concert that was not canceled due to the virus, due the pandemic. The Rachmaninoff mountain concert, and this seemed to be quite fitting to give it that theme.
Warwick F:
Just so listeners understand a little bit, and again, I know you probably don’t want them to get into every detail, but is it discrimination based on that you’re Egyptian, from the Middle East? People make certain assumptions about everybody from the Middle East believes a certain way. Is that kind of, you look different, they assume you believe different, is it that kind of territory or?
Wael F:
It’s all of that. Exactly.
Warwick F:
Everybody from the Middle East must be evil or that kind of mentality.
Wael F:
Yeah. And recent events, especially that happened in our own backyard in Kenosha in July also really was an alarming wake up call in a way that we need to be careful and we need to be how… Not that we need to be careful how labeling people could make us really pay dearly down the road. And sometimes we are too polite even to defend ourselves, or to correct somebody’s misassumptions, or just asking questions back, or really, for a lack of a better word, defending oneself that could be viewed or skewed as being aggressive or as being irrational, or as being whatever.
Wael F:
But if clarification or seeking truth becomes secondary to anything, we will pay dearly. And they’re not just talking about those who are in certain minorities. If history taught us anything, just a little bit of drifting from the right paths will cost us dearly. So I am glad that again, this has been put in my life. I don’t understand those reasons right now, but as my faith has taught me, as past experiences has taught me, I’m sure it’s for the good. I’m sure it will also help me be a stronger, I will understand myself better.
Wael F:
I think the crucibles in my childhood brought me where I am today. The crucibles I’m facing right now will kind of determine where to go from here.
Warwick F:
It sounds like you approaching it with courage and conviction. It’s hard to understand why intolerance, hatred because of differences. It’s hard to understand where that come from. From a faith perspective, I guess there’s a lot of darkness in the soul of humanity, but it’s always hard to understand, I have to say. But it’s been a reality, certainly in our current times and before. So thank you for sharing that.
Warwick F:
Talk a bit about this concert. I love how you’re combining both your love for music, as well as to stand up for justice against discrimination, oppression, and persecution. One of the other things I wanted to come back to is, when somebody says to you, Wael, “Oh, that’s impossible. You can’t do it. Don’t even try, give up.” That’s almost like now that you’ve said that, then I have to try it. Right?
Warwick F:
It’s like, somewhere, I think I read that Rachmaninoff was, I don’t know what 6’3, 6’6, a massive size, and massive wingspan, and probably huge hands. And so it’s fine for him to write concertos that he can play, but what about the rest of humanity? I guess he didn’t really care about that. “I’m good. I can play my own music,” but you would take on something that music teachers said, “Give it up, Wael, you’ll never do it.” But yet it’s almost like this challenge that’s…
Warwick F:
Talk about, why when somebody says it’s impossible for you, Wael, why that becomes like this lightning rod, this challenge, this rallying cry? Here we go, let’s go for it. How does that happen for you?
Wael F:
Sure I haven’t been asked this before, so it will take me a little bit to get there. I’m happy to answer it, it’s a great question. I think I need to answer this question to verbalize it for myself. But to touch quickly about what you just said about what goes on and what we can not really understand why things happen, and darkness in humanity, et cetera, but the theme of your show.
Wael F:
And I like the thing that this is the theme of my life too, that I know that good will prevail, no matter what, good will prevail. If history has taught us anything over, and over, and over, and over again, good will prevail. And those who do think that they have a green light to abuse, discriminate, just don’t overestimate your dark powers. And for those who go through similar times as I am and as many others, don’t underestimate your strengths and your power and the power of God, because if you have God on your side, that’s it.
Wael F:
And I know it may feel as an over-simplification, but this is not at all. And whether we choose, acknowledge it or discuss it, but it seems to be the theme of humanity. That’s why all of the movies almost is about either good or evil and which one we’ll thrive at the end. I just wanted to throw that in there. But now back to your question. Of course, when I was young or recently when I decided to take on these projects, to take on these massive programming, it is not at all that I want to try to prove anything.
Wael F:
Because if there is anything to be proven, it’s just for oneself. Because at the end of the day, when you put your head down to sleep, it’s your conscience, artistic or personal or human or moral, that’s what counts. That’s what will keep you awake at night or that’s what we’ll give you peace of mind. When I am told, for example, when I was young, “You cannot really do this. You cannot play Rachmaninoff’s third, you can never be a pianist.” I don’t read the future. None of us can.
Wael F:
And of course, these are experts that I respect and admire, but at the same time, I guess what processes into my head, which I believe is your question is, all right. Don’t seal my fate yet. Let’s take a look at this. Give me an opportunity, give me a chance. And no matter how long it will take, if this doesn’t really work, it will be folly of me to lie to myself, because this is the worst kind of lie, when you lie to yourself.
Wael F:
So let me have a run with this. Let me try, let me close the door on myself for a year, or two, or three, or four. Let me give up what I like to give up happily to practice and to sit down and memorize all of these works and all of these notes and let’s see. And if I cannot do that, I will tell you. If I cannot do that to share it with public, with hundreds and thousands of people, at least I have had a wonderful journey of discovery that I really cannot do that.
Wael F:
Knowing your limitation is a blessing, is often more important than knowing what you’re able to do. But so far, I think I haven’t had that wall… I haven’t ran into a wall, I guess that I could not take down. And if that teaches me anything, when you have faith, when you have courage, when you know what you’re doing. When it’s not just naive, empty statements, and when you work hard, and this is the one thing I really learned from Rachmaninoff or from Beethoven or from Chopin.
Wael F:
Because those people, those people worked extremely hard under incredible circumstances. If you look up Beethoven, Beethoven could have stopped 25 years earlier than when he died, when his hearing was already going out. He still wrote, this is my duty to my art. This is my duty to my fellow man, to keep working, to keep writing. The poor man was suffering. He was deaf. At the end of his life, God knows what kind of all sorts of stomach cancer he was dealing with.
Wael F:
His stomach was basically cut open for three months because of all the infections, all of the lead poisoning, all of the horrible things that he was going through. He was still working to the last breath. And if those people could do that, who am I to give up so quickly?
Warwick F:
You’re offering… I want to touch on this briefly here in a moment because you teach at Carthage College. In addition to teaching music, there’s a lot of life lessons you can offer students, and current musicians, future pianists, and talented folks. But just that sense of not giving up, I’m reminded of somebody, very different circumstances we had on the podcast, a woman, Lisa Blair, who is an Australian woman who sailed around Antarctica in a sailboat.
Warwick F:
This is like the worst oceans in the world. Massive storms, as she would say, she’s like 5’2, not particularly physically adept in terms, she’s not like six foot, some massively strong. She thinks of herself as not very special, but she has a very special attitude. That’s really her superpower, it’s not her physical stature. And she defines failure the way you do, which is failure is not trying.
Warwick F:
So long as I’m giving it my all, I’m giving it my level best, then that’s not failure. And that’s something that young people, just what you said, really need to understand. So often, you know what they say, “It’s better to have tried and failed and never to have tried.” Maybe you’ll fail, but you’ll certainly fail if you don’t try.
Wael F:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
I’m sure you’ve probably given that message a million times to young people. And sometimes you’ll fail, but sometimes you won’t. And it’s like, what if I fail? The response is, but what if you don’t?
Wael F:
Right.
Warwick F:
And even if you do, so what?
Wael F:
Right.
Warwick F:
Right?
Wael F:
Exactly. It doesn’t define you. And if you are going into life expecting that it will be a Disney movie, perfect, then it’s better really to wake up. Even in Disney, there are some hard times. And my best word of advice that really comes to mind when Edison says, “I didn’t fail 2,000 times to make a light bulb work, I found 2,000 ways not to make a light bulb work.” Because knowing what not to do is extremely helpful.
Warwick F:
And that’s a very, I love that you bring that up. People often think, somebody in Hollywood or a pianist, they were an overnight success. There’s no such thing, in most cases. Edison’s a great example. In a lot of the creative arts, and you would know much better than I would about composers, but typically as you’ve described with Beethoven or Mozart, there’s hours and hours, and years and years of intense work that leads to what we might think is some of the greatest masterpieces of music ever written.
Warwick F:
Greatness typically doesn’t happen easily. You got to have some talent, but it requires a massive amount of hard work.
Wael F:
Exactly. And the other quote that I really love is from Beethoven, who said, “I am only 10% talent and 90% hard work.” And like you said, being successful at anything, it just comes with sweat and blood. And another great lesson I learned from my dad, reaching the top of your mountain is comparatively easy, by staying on the top of your mountain. So it’s not, once you accomplished something you are done and you leave, and that’s it.
Wael F:
And I think this is part of the challenge, or maybe this is also why I like to keep looking for a new challenge is because feeling that, okay, I already did that, I have nothing else to do. Then you’re kind of emotionally dead, or you’re kind of intellectually dead. Life is still full of so many great things, but this is also the same thing in chess. I was just watching a Bobby Fischer interview and the host is asking him, “What’s now for you? You’re already the champion of the world?”
Wael F:
And he says, “I have to find something to do. I cannot just sit for three years till my game.” And the same with Pushkin, or Dostoyevsky, or Tchaikovsky, or Rachmaninoff, or Beethoven, or Bobby Fischer.
Warwick F:
Just talk about, as we begin to close here with Carthage College. Talk-
Gary S:
Yeah, I was going to say, I normally say at this point, “The captain’s turned on the fasten seatbelt signs and it’s about time to land the plane.” The best I have here is that we’re approaching the Coda of the performance of our conversation. Before we do-
Warwick F:
I was going to say, we’re probably coming towards the last movement or something of the piece, or.
Gary S:
Yes. Before we do that and Warwick, asked this question though, Wael, I want to give you the opportunity to let listeners know where they can find you online and find out more about you. So where can they go to find out more about you?
Wael F:
Thank you, Gary. My website waelfarouk.com, W-A-E-L, F as in Frank, A-R-O-U-K.com where I have my past performances, recent performances, calendar of upcoming events. My YouTube channel, again, just writing my name, my website at Carthage College or Roosevelt University.
Gary S:
Fabulous. Thank you.
Warwick F:
Just talk as we close here at Carthage College, you obviously love playing music and just helping people understand the joy of some of these incredible pieces. Whether it’s Rachmaninoff, Chopin, Beethoven, all of the other ones you play, but yet you also teach. Talk about how teaching students at Carthage College gives you joy. What about that? You could just play music, but there’s something about that that clearly you love teaching students about music. What is it about that that you love?
Wael F:
That’s a great question. There are so many nuances here. Teaching is also learning at the same time, because it’s two-way street. Finding, there are certain things that I do naturally and I do instinctively when I play, and certain things perhaps that I didn’t find very much challenging. Certain things I did find challenging, but when you meet with a student who comes from various backgrounds, some come from… They just been taught by fabulous teachers. They have no problems, technically, psychologically, musically.
Wael F:
And some others have deficiencies in one or all of those three areas. And then having to think, first of all, analyze just like a physician when you go and dealing with different patients, with different symptoms analyze, they’re trying to understand they’re trying to find the antidote. And sometimes the first one works great, sometimes the 10th one only works great.
Wael F:
But going through these classes, discovering new ways, new verbalizations of new ways or of demonstration, how to get the information, how to understand how the hand and the body and the brain work, it’s a very complicated job, much more so than some people think. Especially if you do it on a professional level, not just in a recreational for hobby or therapeutically. But going through that and at the same time, because we deal with a great wealth of history.
Wael F:
At least what I like to do when I teach music, when I teach piano that I don’t just work with a student on this Chopin concerto or this Chopin… We get to know who Chopin was, we get to know about the French Revolution. We get to know about the Polish Revolution. We get to know about the Russian invasion of Poland, and 1840, and the 80-year war, the 30-year war, et cetera, cetera. What did Franz Liszt stand for politically? What did Rachmaninoff stand for politically?
Wael F:
Those people were timekeepers and were mirrors like all artists of what was happening culturally in terms of history, in terms of their own view of the world. And you probably cannot find a better time capsule than that because they are very accurate. So we delve into all of that, and of course, that really shapes the life of a young person in a wonderful way.
Wael F:
And also knowing that no matter what challenges you have; mentally, emotionally, physically, we all have our scars on the inside or the out. But again, that does not mean that you can not do something if you don’t apply all your faculties to it. But seeing at the end that critical faculties develop and seeing that they become their own teachers in a way. Because it’s one thing to tell somebody, “Okay, here, this solves the problem. Here is what you should do. Here is how you prepare for a piece, how you prepare for a competition, for an audition, for a concert.”
Wael F:
But to work with them over the two or three or the four years you have, sometimes longer till they become their own teachers. Because no matter what a great teacher you study with, at the end of the path, you are on your own. But if you know how to take care of yourself personally, musically, artistically, and always grow, always find new information to always learn, to always develop. I think this is very, very, very rewarding. It’s hard work, takes a lot of time, especially it takes a lot of time away from your practicing.
Wael F:
But it is our responsibility in a way, because I was given so much by all my teachers, freely and lovingly, and I wouldn’t trade this for the world. And I spend time with my teacher more than I spend with my parents. And I’m just proud and honored to be given an opportunity to present something like that to somebody else.
Gary S:
That sounds a lot like a Maestro hitting his final note right there. That’s what that sounds like to me, listeners. Before we go, I want to leave you listeners with something that before we hit record on this episode Warwick and Wael were talking about, and they were joking. They were laughing that their initials are the same, Warwick Fairfax and Wael Farouk. And we have guests as you’ve heard me say before, we have guests fill out these forms to help us prepare for the podcast and we ask a number of questions.
Gary S:
And one of the questions that we ask is, what’s one bit of advice you would give listeners to help them overcome crucibles? And this is what Wael wrote. But what struck me about it as I was reading it is that this quote, I could take this quote and I could put, “It was said by the initials WF,” and you wouldn’t know whether it was Warwick Fairfax or it was Wael Farouk who says it.
Gary S:
And here’s the quote, “Our lives in many ways are defined by how we act in the face of suffering and calamity. We are bound to go through rough waters, but this is for the good. What helped me go through all of my challenges is my faith and love for God, my family, and my work.” That, listeners defines both of the men that you’ve heard talking on this conversation today on Beyond the Crucible.
Gary S:
And until we’re together the next time, listeners, if you want to know more about Crucible Leadership and about Beyond the Crucible, we’ve got some exciting things you can discover at our website, crucibleleadership.com. There’s lots of new content, lots of new information coming. Go check us out, check those things out. You’ll be excited, I think by what you’ll see. And again, until the next time we are together, remember what we’ve discussed here, the truth of what we discussed here.
Gary S:
Your crucibles are painful. What Wael discussed was painful to him, has been, continues to be painful to him, but it’s so far from not the end of his story and it’s so far not the end of your story. Because if we learn the lessons from our crucibles, if we apply the lessons from our crucibles, it’s not the last chapter of our story. It can be the beginning of a new chapter that can lead to the best chapter of our lives, because the end result where we get to that destination is where Warwick’s ended up, is where Wael’s ended up, and that is at a life of significance.
We’ve all heard that living with your purpose top of mind – what we at Crucible Leadership call a life of significance – leads to a more joyful and impactful life. But did you know it also can lead to a longer life? Author Marta Zaraska makes an eye-opening case for that truth in her best-seller, Growing Young: How Friendship, Optimism and Kindness Can Help You Live to 100 – a book steeped in science (she studied more than 600 research papers in her research) that points to the health benefits of living life in community and in service to others. That means those steps you’re taking to overcome your crucibles — deepening authentic relationships, growing in character and kindness, leaning into the power of meditation and prayer — can lower your mortality rate more effectively than a fad diet or obsessing over whether you’re getting your 10,000 steps in every day.
To learn more about Marta Zaraska and Growing Young, visit www.zaraska.com
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Marta Z:
I really believe that most people can find in their jobs and what they’re doing, some kind of sense of meaning. But you have to really try, you have to spend some time to think about those things, what could it be? Can it be your family or maybe your community involvement or even when we’re talking about kindness, which is related to purpose and meaning. Research shows that acts of kindness can lower levels of our stress hormone, cortisol and generally change our gene expression.
Marta Z:
But the kind acts they are talking about, are usually quite small. It doesn’t require some huge, donating $1 million to charity. You can for instance just open doors for someone to let them ahead of you. You can let people ahead of you in traffic. You can pick up trash in your neighborhood. Just really small things. And yet they make all the difference. And I think it’s the same thing with purpose. Of course it’s great if your purpose in life is to save the world from climate change, awesome, but it can also be something small, very small steps and it’s all about shifting your perspective and just thinking about those things in the first place.
Gary S:
We’ve all heard that living with your purpose top of mind, what we call a life of significance, leads to a more joyful and impactful life. But did you know it also can lead to a longer life? Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. On this week’s episode, Warwick talks with Marta Zaraska, the best-selling author of Growing Young: How Friendship, Optimism, and Kindness Can Help You Live to 100. A book steeped in science that points to the health benefits of living life on purpose in service to others. Among the eye-opening facts she uncovers: volunteering lowers your mortality risk by 22%. Optimism can prolong your life by almost 10 years and supplements and fitness trackers aren’t likely to do as much for the length and quality of your life as simply living in close knit community will do for it.
Warwick F:
Marta, thank you so much for being here. When I read, I think it was a couple of weeks or so ago, the article in the Washington Post that talked about purpose and how having purpose could help increase longevity, I thought, “Boy, that makes sense intuitively, but I haven’t really read an article and now a book that actually talks about that from a science perspective.” So that’s fascinating, because at Crucible Leadership we’re all about helping folks bounce back from their crucible setbacks and failures to lead a life of significance. Which we define as a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. So that right in our wheelhouse and what our listeners will be curious about. So, Marta, thank you, again, so much for being here. Before we get into the book, tell us a little bit about how you became a science writer and the background? Because I know, I think you’re Canadian living in France but I believe you were born in Poland. So tell us a little bit about that journey about your background and how you came to be a science writer?
Marta Z:
I mean, I’ve been a journalist for over two decades now, so it’s been a while. First as a foreign affairs journalist I was working in Poland for several major publications there. I used to write about some things like social issues in Africa, I traveled a lot as well, places in Africa especially. And so, then as a very young adult, I moved out of Poland, I moved to Canada and so a few years later I also became Canadian. But I started writing in English at some point as well and decided that maybe traveling to Africa and very dangerous places generally, wasn’t going very well in line with starting a family.
Marta Z:
So, I decided to switch to a different type of writing, science writing. Although it’s connected to my previous work as well, because when I was writing about environment issues in Africa or some social issues, water shortages, it was also very much based in science already and I’m also married to a scientist, so it was a natural change of course for me. But I’ve been doing it for many, many years as well right now, so, writing, as you’ve mentioned before, for Scientific American, the Washington Post especially, and some other publications that is Los Angeles Times, et cetera, that you’ve mentioned, I’m sorry for all my editors in those newspapers, for putting them there, New Scientist et cetera.
Warwick F:
Wow, that’s amazing. So, now did you meet your husband in Poland or Canada or…
Marta Z:
Poland. I mean, we married crazy young, so yeah.
Warwick F:
And speaking of that, you have one or two kids?
Marta Z:
One, one daughter yeah, she’s eight.
Warwick F:
One daughter, okay. I’m sure it’s fascinating to see as she grows up, all of the different tendencies and changes. It’s one thing to read about people in scientific journals and papers, but then you get to observe a person too. And that must be pretty interesting, I imagine?
Marta Z:
I mean, that’s how it feels in a certain way, as I said, we are both Polish born naturalized Canadians and we live in France right now. So we’re actually raising a French person which adds that additional twist to the whole parenting.
Warwick F:
So what led you to move to France? Out of curiosity.
Marta Z:
Helping out with my husband’s PhD and we stayed afterwards.
Warwick F:
Okay. So, I imagine your daughter’s probably, obviously fluent in French and I guess she probably knows a bit of English and Polish does she?
Marta Z:
I mean, she’s trilingual, so she’s absolutely fluent in both French and English with no difference and her Polish is slightly worse than English and French, but she also can communicate fluently.
Warwick F:
I’m sure with the grandparents and all, that would be important, so…
Gary S:
That is tremendously impressive. I am barely, many days, unilingual, so…
Warwick F:
Yeah. That’s awesome. So, I want to get into the book, but I think one of the challenges you mentioned was coming from Poland, writing for a Polish language journal, it wasn’t the easiest thing in the world to get published in papers such as the Washington Post and writing another language is not the easiest thing, I’m sure, especially when you’re writing scientific articles. I mean, I did a bit of French in school and I can probably order a meal or get a room for the night, but there’s no way I could talk in French about some scientific subject. That would be way beyond me, so, that must not have been easy, I imagine?
Marta Z:
I mean the funny part is, I can not write in Polish anything about science at all, so, it is an interesting but it’s extremely difficult for me. But, yeah, I mean switching to English was a challenge, a big one definitely. And so to do so, me and my husband at some point many years ago, we’ve actually decided to switch to speaking English at home, which is something that many people find extremely weird. That we are both Polish and we speak English at home and our daughter speaks English with us at home. But from both our work’s perspective it was vital because we knew we were staying in the West and to be able to write properly in English, I had to think in English and to think in English, I had to speak in English.
Marta Z:
So that’s what we’ve decided to do and yes, breaking into the Western market is certainly a challenge and unfortunately even the top credits from Poland are not very much appreciated usually, so, I got a lot of rejection letters before I managed to break into… My first publication was Globe and Mail in Canada and so I really appreciated the chance that the Editor there, in the international section took on me. So, yeah, that was extremely challenging and it took a lot of being very, very stubborn and sending my emails and letters over and over and over and over and over again. I guess I’m pretty stubborn, so… And then once you write your first Washington Post article, then suddenly the door is open and things become much, much easier.
Warwick F:
Well, the power of persistence, a very important quality. Anybody that’s succeeded, I can’t think of anybody that hasn’t been persistent. I don’t know if persistence adds years to your life, but it should, so… I’m trying to remember if I read that, I’m not sure, but… So talk a bit about what led you to write Growing Young, because I know you’ve written another book, but why this book? I mean, was there anything that’s linked to your background, family, any reason why this whole growing young concept was fascinating to you?
Marta Z:
I mean, it came quite naturally out of my writing, because I write mostly about biological sciences, so everything concerning health, nutrition, psychology and also longevity. So all these topics I’ve been covering them in my articless previously, so there weren’t any surprising twists there. And also, in my private life, I’ve been quite interested in longevity and health and I think the book started basically, the idea for the book was at first to be a parenting book, actually. So I felt, as a mother I had this wish that my daughter would live healthy and long and I was thinking, “How can I help her achieve that? How can I assure that she’ll live a healthy and long life?” So I started gathering data and reading articles and journals and talking to experts, trying to figure out what makes people live long. And so, of course, there was the diet and exercise, but at the same time I started coming across more and more research showing that this social side of health.
Marta Z:
So whether we are socially integrated, whether we have purpose in life, meaning, whether we are optimistic, conscientious, all these things matter at least as much for health and longevity as diet and exercise. And then I realized also that there was something much bigger here than just a parenting book, because this applies to everyone not just for making sure that my daughter life long and healthy and for children in general, but also, for us parents and grandparents, for everybody, right? And this was a huge point that seemed to be missing completely from the discussions we were having in the media about what makes people live long and healthy. And this is why I decided to do even more research and I ended up reading over 600 research papers to write this book. Hence that was how Growing Young came about.
Warwick F:
It’s interesting, because as you write in the book, it’s easier to measure the effect of diet, exercise, nutrition probably scientifically than the things you write about, committed relationships, purpose, the socialization with friends. I mean, it’s probably a little… It feels a little more fuzzy, maybe it’s not as fuzzy, but that’s the popular concept. I know there’s a couple of things you write in your book, which again, I found absolutely fascinating. From everything from marriage to relationships to loneliness, so many things. You wrote a couple of things that talked about your purpose in the book. You wrote one comment that says, “I wrote Growing Young out of the believe that in the deluge of reductionist wellness news, we’ve somehow lost the big picture. Ignoring the things that matter the most for our longevity, relationships, emotions and the psyche.”
Warwick F:
And then another one you write, “My goal in writing this book was to help you fundamentally rethink how you approach your health. Whether you might be putting too much effort into strategies that don’t work well, supplements, fitness trackers and not enough into those that truly matter, your love life, your friendships, your life’s meaning.” And obviously you’re not saying that diet and exercise and health are not important, I mean, I’m sure, reading your book you obviously, you and your husband and daughter take that all seriously. But talk how there’s almost a fascination and obsession, my words not yours, with the latest diet, the latest fitness track, the latest treadmill machine. We’re just so focused on measuring pounds and calories and body fat, but yet we don’t really think too much of some of these other things such as relationships, emotions and such. So talk about the obsession the world, certainly the Western world has with that versus these other factors that seem to be pretty important?
Marta Z:
I mean we certainly are obsessed. When you think about it, half of all American adults take at least one dietary supplement every single day and the sales of all these fitness trackers are absolutely booming and so, I believe what’s happening are two things. So, for one, we find it comforting in a way, to measure things. We like simple solutions, so if you pop this miracle supplement your telomeres will become longer. If you measure your HRV rate you will know exactly how old you are. If you take 10,000 steps exactly per day, then you’ll be healthy.
Marta Z:
So we really like this kind of simple solution, this is what you do and this is the results you’re going to get. But I also think it’s fueled by marketing and sales, basically of all the companies that are selling us those products. Because why do we keep hearing about miracle diets and supplements and exercise gadgets so much and so little about the impact of friendship and social inclusion, happiness, purpose on health? Even though these things have been established in science for a very long time. And I believe the reason is exactly that when we are talking about diet and exercise, there are products that are being sold to us. All these supplements, it is a huge, multi-billion dollar industry worldwide.
Marta Z:
The fitness trackers, there is someone making money on all those things. So they’re being advertised, they’re being publicized by influencers on social media. So this is why we hear about all those things. Whereas when we’re talking about purpose in life, it’s hard to make money, nobody’s making money on you finding meaning in your life. So, this is why you don’t hear about it, you don’t see it on Instagram, because it’s just not making money for them.
Warwick F:
Right. Can you imagine, “Here’s this magic pill, have this pill for three weeks and you won’t be lonely. Have this other pill and you’ll have a happy marriage.” It’d be tough to sell that one.
Marta Z:
Yeah. It doesn’t exists.
Warwick F:
No, I mean, it’s funny, we are in my family, somewhat emblematic of what you’re talking about. I mean, I’m very blessed, my wife cooks very well and goes to health food places like Whole Foods, a huge US place. So we eat organic stuff and yes, I got to confess, we do have the odd supplement. I have to ask, I hope it doesn’t have any lead in it like some of the supplements you mentioned in your book. But yeah, I mean I like to think we’re also focused on purpose too. It is interesting-
Gary S:
I have to jump in and say, I feel really bad that I said at the outset off air that I’m keeping track of time on my Fitbit. So, I know how long we’re going, so I’m just going to sit over here and not say anything and sort of shrink back.
Warwick F:
Yeah. And perhaps not look at your Fitbit too much, right?
Gary S:
Yes, correct. Yeah.
Warwick F:
So, I mean… But what you say is there’s so many interesting takes, I mean, I want to get to purpose here and Ikigai, which I’m sure I’ll mispronounce, a little bit. Because, that purpose is so much of what we talk about here at Crucible Leadership. But there’s so many interesting stats you have, you’ve got a great chart in there that list a whole bunch of dieting things you can do and exercise and then everything from relationships to having purpose and social networks. But there’s one quote that I think you have in there that really sums up everything and compares some key dietary and exercise components with more of the social aspects, and this whole paragraph I found fascinating.
Warwick F:
So here’s what you wrote, “Here’s some stats, eating six or more servings of fruits and vegetables a day versus zero, lowers the risk of mortality by 26%. Sticking to the famed Mediterranean diet means a 20 to 21% lower risk of dying within the next few years. The number for many social factors are much higher, the happy marriage equals a 49% lower mortality risk. Living with someone, even just a roommate, as opposed to living alone, 19 to 32%. Having a large network of friends, 45%. Other mindset and social indicators have effects similar to that of the super-healthy eating style. Volunteering lowers mortality risk by 22%, more or less as much as following the Mediterranean diet. If you were to add everything together, combining a good marriage, strong friendships, feelings of belonging and so forth, you create a complex measure of social integration, or something that we call the essence of the Roseto effect,” which some town in Pennsylvania in the early ’60s where people were super close with each other, “you would get a whopping 65% reduction in mortality.”
Warwick F:
I mean, that’s just staggering. Here’s all of these things from Mediterranean, fruit and vegetables, but you compare that with things like marriage, volunteering, social networks, it’s not to say you shouldn’t do that, but it has as big an effect. I mean that was astounding to me, those statistics. I mean it’s mind blowing.
Marta Z:
I mean, there was also a disclaimer after. And I think it’s quite important to mention that so these numbers are coming from very different studies with very varying methodologies. So I don’t want people to get hung up on the numbers. “It’s exactly 21% over here, it is exactly 26%.” It’s just about giving a rough idea about how important these things are. But it doesn’t mean that you should be comparing them exactly, because I said they come from different studies. But in general research shows that social integration is at least as important as diet and exercise and perhaps even more important than diet and exercise. Even though diet and exercise are of course, very important for your health and longevity. But these things are maybe even more.
Marta Z:
So in the perfect scenario you’ll be eating healthy and exercising and making sure you’re socially integrated, that you’re involved in your community, that you have purpose in life. But also when we talk about diet and exercise, once again, it’s not this obsessive type of diet and exercise when we’re searching for all the best miracle foods and diets and eating Manuka honey sprinkled with Goji berries and popping all the possible telomere enhancing supplements. It’s simple, it’s just avoiding junk food and too much sugar, eating your fruits and veggies, which can be perfectly fine, carrots and apples and pears, there’s nothing wrong with them. They are very healthy and good for you. So, simple but still very important.
Warwick F:
No, absolutely. And I grew up in Australia but live in the US now. My wife’s American, we’ve lived here about 30 years. There are some comparisons that I found fascinating. You talk about eating at the dinner table together and in France, I think you mentioned people in their 30s and 40s, 61% eat with their families at night compared to 24% of Americans. That just makes so much sense, I mean, I’m blessed, we have three kids in their 20s and because of COVID they’re all living with us, and pretty much every night we do eat together. I mean that’s the way I grew up, in Australia we always ate together. I mean once in a while on the weekend maybe we’ll watch TV, but, yeah, that sense of just being together as you eat maybe again, Australian culture is different than American. So, when I was growing up, I can’t ever remember eating food in the car.
Warwick F:
That was anathema, it’s just having moved here and got married, I had to realize people do do that, which I thought was somewhat barbaric. I’m sure anybody in France would agree that eating in the car is barbaric, I don’t know about Poland but certainly the French would certainly believe it’s… But yeah, that sense of just… And often we’ll be talking around the dinner table and time will be getting on and I’ll want to wash the dishes and relax and we’re still talking. And I’m not that impatient, I like socializing. It’s not a five minute meal, I mean it’s and hour, hour and a half, I mean it’s every night. So, I guess we’re unusual. But talk about people don’t do that that much certainly in America, maybe Canada too, so, there are certain cultural things that have just changed in the last 30, 40 years that are not for the good, don’t you think?
Marta Z:
I mean, certainly. I lived in Canada for several years, obviously, and I got used to eating in my car as well, and eating while walking down the street and then I moved to France and I discovered but it’s a horrible faux pas to eat in your car or walking down the street, you just don’t do that. People will be looking at you like, “You’re a crazy person.” So, I would never do that right now and one time I was somewhere away for work and I actually had to eat a sandwich rushing from one meeting to another walking down the street. And I felt so horrible, I actually… I had the sandwich in my handbag and I was sneaking like a kid in school, eating during class. And it’s true that for the French, eating at a table is extremely important. In all Mediterranean cultures, for instance, my daughter here in a French school, she has a two hour break for lunch and for at least an hour they sit at a table and eat.
Marta Z:
They’re having an appetizer, then a second appetizer and the main dish then cheese platter and then the dessert. So, it’s something extremely important for the culture here. And this is what I also write about in Growing Young, that we often focus so much on the Mediterranean diet in terms of what kind of nutrients it contains. How much olive oil people are taking in when they’re eating a Mediterranean diet, how many grams of tomatoes or how much wine they’re drinking and calculating everything in this reductionist way, exactly. Whereas, an extremely important part of the Mediterranean diet is actually how they eat. It’s not only about what they eat, it’s important, but it’s not only that, it’s also how they eat. In Spain and Italy and France in those Mediterranean cultures you eat with other people. You eat slowly, you take your time, you talk, this is extremely important. So if you eat the same diet, the Mediterranean diet, in your car alone, it won’t have the same beneficial effects for your health. So, there is a huge part that we are missing in North America, I think.
Warwick F:
Yeah. And you make a very good point, I mean as a science writer you obviously want to understand cause and effect accurately. And so in some of these Blue Zones, Sardinia which… Island off of Italy, you study, “Boy look how the people live long and they’re healthy.” Well, yes, and they do eat, I’m sure, fruit, vegetables, olive oil, salads. But they probably eat amongst friends, they have social clubs, they help their friends and neighbors. A lot of the things you talk about in this book they do as part of their culture. And so how do you figure out what’s the diet and what’s some of the social factors? I mean, it’s probably not the easiest thing in the world to isolate. But while it’s hard to isolate, you can’t discount… You can’t say, “Oh, it’s all the Mediterranean diet.” I mean that’s a good point, but, I mean, I’ve seen documentaries on Blue Zones and they talk about some of these other things but it seems like the focus is on the diet, not on the other.
Marta Z:
I mean, for instance real life experiments was what happened and something you’ve mentioned earlier on, the Roseto. Roseto was a town in Pennsylvania that was actually settled by immigrants from Italy. And when they came over to Pennsylvania, they actually abandoned their Mediterranean diet very, very fast, unfortunately, and started eating a typical American diet, very greasy diet with lots of sausages and meat and they drank a lot of alcohol, a lot of beer. So they were definitely not eating healthy, they were also smoking a lot. And at the same time, this Roseto became famous because nobody were dying of heart attacks there. This attracted attention of scientists and doctors back in the 1960s. It was very far apart from all the surrounding areas, even though they had the same health care, same water system, similar social profiles, horrible diet, once again. And yet people were living much longer, I think their mortality rates were 30% lower, which is huge.
Marta Z:
So the doctors started studying the people there, they discovered it’s not in their genes either, there was nothing in there. But what was special about this town was that people there brought this exactly Mediterranean culture with them. So they were extremely social, they were constantly visiting, everybody knew all their neighbors. They were having huge backyard parties where everybody was invited. They were taking care of their front yards so the town would look pretty for everybody. They had 22 civic organizations in a town of 2,000 people, which was unbelievable. And so, scientists concluded that this was what was making them healthy, and this was named the Roseto effect. And also what the scientists did, they predicted back then in 1960 that were the Rosetans ever to abandon their ways and follow the usual American dream, the effects would disappear.
Marta Z:
And this is unfortunately what has happened in the ’80s and ’90s when the next generation started to move to the suburbs, work longer hours to be able to afford bigger houses, started driving in their bigger cars and they stopped visiting, they stopped having these community relationships. They stopped taking part in the civic organizations, and unfortunately, by now, their health just is the American average. This protective effect and their amazing cardiovascular health has completely disappeared.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s very instructive. They were eating an unhealthy diet, but yet, they were living long, but once they abandoned that tight-knit social lifestyle, their health changed. That would seem to be very determinative. One other thing, before we get to purpose, I found fascinating is you talk about committed romantic relationship, which obviously could be marriage. But you differentiate that between cohabiting where there’s not a life-long commitment. Obviously marriage in theory, it’s clearer, but whether it’s marriage or some alternative where you go in there thinking, “We’re doing this for life.” The fact that it lowers mortality by 49%, I mean, even with a room mate, I think I read somewhere maybe 20% or something, I mean, that’s just staggering, the effect of a committed long-term relationship such as marriage. So talk about why that makes such a difference?
Marta Z:
I mean, it boils down to our sense of security in the most basic form. So if you think about it, we are social apes. So we evolved to be with our tribe and this is where we feel the safest and this is where our bodies function the best. And so, our fight or flight response, so for instance, our HPA axis or hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis, this stress response that activated back in evolutionary past when you stumbled up on a lion on the savanna, and today is activated by anything from your mortgage worries to traffic jams, this functions the best when we are with others. Basically we feel safe when we are with other people. And when you are in a committed relationship like that, the committed part is important because you know that the other person will be there for you for better or for worse. And then all the stress responses can function better because you know there is some support. You are not alone.
Marta Z:
And so all the biological processes that’s carrying on when we are stressed from different expression of genes related to our inflammation levels to antiviral response to cancer progression, all these kind of things function better when we feel safe. So this is part of it. The other part of it is also for instance that we exchange microbes with other people. So, we know that we exchange microbes with our friends, with our family, but in particular with our romantic partners, because we touch, because we kiss, and the more diverse people have their gut microbes, generally, the better their health functions. There are also other connections, there are social hormones that we have like oxytocin and serotonin for instance, that get released when we are touching, when we are talking, when we are looking deeply into each others’ eyes. When we are getting old, these warm feelings of trust and connection but also that have, down stream, very biological effects on our bodies.
Marta Z:
So for instance, oxytocin has antiinflammatory effects, serotonin has effects on the liver, endorphins are a natural painkiller. So we have all these hormones that, at the one hand, are acting as the social connection hormones and then on the other hand, have very direct biological effects on our body. Including allowing gut microbiome, everything is connected and talking, all these two-way pathways between our brain and gut and all the hormones interacting the best and working the best when we are feeling safe, connected and that we can trust people around us.
Gary S:
And the flip side of what you were talking about, and Warwick’s question about how committed relationships, friendships, those kind of things help you, help longevity, chapter five in your book, deals with the negative side of that, the lack of that. That’s called the Gnawing Parasite of Loneliness. Explain a little bit about, I mean, we especially in America, we can hear a lot about feeling lonely and there’s the connection quote—unquote that comes from some of our electronic ability to interact with one-another. But studies, I think, have shown that, that isn’t really connection. What is the effect of loneliness on what you just described? Right, the absence of all of those things? What does that do to us?
Marta Z:
Yeah, so loneliness is the flip side of it. So you have all these systems activated so, for instance, we know that people who are lonely, they have shorter telomeres so those protective caps at your ends of chromosomes that take part in aging they have different gene expression when it comes to counter progression or negative they have more inflammation levels they have worse antiviral response they even respond worse to vaccinations. So, there are lots of things that are happening when we are lonely and this is already becoming more and more recognized by health authorities around the world, for instance, in the UK they now have a ministry for loneliness because they know that this is costing the public health care system money, and a lot of money. There were even some calculation how much exactly, I don’t remember the figures, but they were very high. Also, in Manitoba in Canada is a ministry for senior loneliness.
Marta Z:
So, they’re becoming recognized that it’s a really big problem for our health. And it is true that the online connection doesn’t give us the same things, which of course, brings us the pandemic and a lot of people are asking me these days, “Are we doomed? Are we going to all live shorter because we are not connecting now? And is it really only bad for our health?” And whereas it’s definitely not good for our health to be separated and not being able to connect in our natural, normal ways with other people, on the other hand, when scientists study social inclusion and loneliness, the questions they usually ask people are, “Are there any people out there on whom you can count? Is there anybody out there who would bring you soup if you were sick? Is there anybody out there whom you could call and talk about your problems?”
Marta Z:
And the thing is, even though we’re right now isolating these things haven’t disappeared. So if you had friends like that, they can still bring you the soup and drop it at your doorstep, even if you can not meet them in person, you can still pick up the phone and call them. So I don’t think this is the same kind of loneliness that researchers are talking about in the research papers. Because they are talking about chronic loneliness so that you really do not have people like that. There is nobody who would bring you some medicines if you were sick. There is nobody who will drive you to the airport. There’s nobody who you can call. And this is when it’s problematic.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s fascinating. But another thing… A lot of things that I found fascinating, you talk about the power of meditation, different religious traditions, different philosophies such as Viyoga and maybe it’s a way of controlling, regulating emotions, feelings. You mentioned an example of somebody that could have a root canal, I think it was, and through meditation, was able to deal with the pain which I find fascinating. And I’m a person of faith so I think of prayer, at least from my perspective, when I try and relate it to what you talk about, prayer and meditation, and it’s just fascinating how in different religious traditions they tell you how to meditate or how to pray.
Warwick F:
And some of the ways that you do that actually makes some degree of sense. It’s like some people analyze in great detail the Lord’s Prayer, which anybody in the Christian tradition, like it or not, have to recite. But when you analyze the different aspects of it, from almost like a meditative perspective, there are things like focusing on not yourself, but some other higher power. Something external. There’s realizing maybe there’s some higher power in control, that’s assertive, there’s focusing anybody that’s serious about prayer will tell you, don’t go to God with your laundry list, that is a quote—unquote wrong way to pray. Focus on praying for other people. So as I read meditation, I could really… And there’s some of these traditions I can translate it in terms of prayer, it was very similar conceptually. So talk about how whether it’s prayer, meditation, different religious traditions, how they help you regulate your psyche and in some ways also add to longevity. What’s the relationship between all of that?
Marta Z:
I mean, so generally thinking about, exactly, something outside of yourself, so that’s what I write about in Growing Younger, is looking outwards, right? Not only inside yourself, “What I’m eating? What I’m ingesting? How many steps I take?” That looking how you can be helpful? How you can add something to the community? How you can be kind? How you can be better? And this is all, beside the prize when I write about kindness and empathy and volunteering for instance, it has huge impact on health, and generally caring for other people. Also meaning and purpose, it’s also about looking outside of yourself at the bigger picture of how you can be helpful. The last chapter of my book I write about Japan, and I traveled there to talk to people, researchers and also some centenarians about longevity and one extremely important part of longevity research and longevity conversation in Japan, is Ikigai so this purpose in life, meaning in life, reason for living.
Marta Z:
And it’s so important for them that even their ministry of health actually when they are talking about stuff to help longevity, they actually talk about Ikigai as much as they talk about diet and exercise. So it’s truly recognized as really boosting health and there is plenty of research showing it lowers your risk, for example, for cardiovascular problems and other health problems and general. And Ikigai it’s exactly about contributing something to others. Sometimes I ask in interviews in the West for instance, can golfing be my Ikigai? And generally the answer is unfortunately not, it has to be something outside of yourself. No matter how small. So for instance, the Japanese people I talked with, they told that their Ikigai is taking care of their grandchildren, or making sure their front yard looks pretty so the neighbors can enjoy it.
Marta Z:
This is also why many Japanese people take on something they call silver hair jobs. This is when they are already post retirement age, but they decide to take on very simple, easy jobs, usually part-time, not to make money, but to be still involved in something. To be giving back to the community, so they can be public space gardeners, they can be helping children cross on the way to school, they can be doing things like that. And they usually say, “We do it because of Ikigai.” So they can feel needed, they feel involved, they feel they’re giving back. And this is exactly what’s so powerful in both kindness and finding meaning when it comes to longevity and health.
Warwick F:
I think it’s fascinating what you’re saying, Marta, because in Ikigai the focus is obviously, outward focused. It’s caring for their neighbors, their grandkids. It’s not some internally-focused purpose. I mean that’s when we talk about in Crucible Leadership, a life of significance, which we view as the goal more than success. Not that success is wrong and you write about this, I’m sure I read it there somewhere but from our perspective significance is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Now what that could be could be a very different things, depends on your values, your perspective, what’s on your heart.
Warwick F:
But the fact that it seems like in Ikigai… And you visited a number of different places one, Matakaoa in Nagano province, which I guess is where they had the ’98 Winter Olympics which seemed to be one of the hubs of this, I think you write that men live longer there than the whole of Japan, 82.2 years, 10 years longer than some folks in the US. As you visited these towns, and you talk about what you saw, that it’s really focused on others, right? It was not… I’m not against self-actualization, but it was other-focused. That was really the key to Ikigai, right? It wasn’t just making my dreams, my, my, my this. It was more the community.
Marta Z:
Yeah. I mean, definitely among the older population because there’s another thing, Japan is changing very fast, right? So this is also what researchers are very much worried about, that even though they are now the longest living nation on the planet, this is because of culture and values that they’ve had previous generations. But whether in 40, 50 years Japan still will be such a long lived nation is another question because the younger people is changing very much. So they’re much more consumption-oriented, they are much more following western values and so this is disappearing. But definitely when you look at the older people, they do have those beliefs, they really do look outwards. They really care about their community, how their village or town square looks like, about helping others. They do those silver hair jobs, it’s actually very, very common in Japan, this is not some kind of exception for crazy people. This is actually mainstream, so, certainly these values this made them such a long lived nation. But if they change, then this will no longer continue.
Warwick F:
And I almost feel like even in the West, some of these things are beginning to creep in. Somebody wrote a book a number of years ago, Halftime, which is the first half of your life, maybe you’re successful and then second half is for significance. I think all our life should be significance but that’s another discussion. But I think more and more, even younger people, they want purpose and meaning. If there are two jobs, one pays slightly better, 10% better but you just feel like a small cog in a machine, you don’t feel like you’re treated well, and there’s no purpose or meaning, you probably won’t want it. More and more companies are trying to say, in America I can think of some examples like Southwest Airlines the most successful, probably best run airline. Their whole mission was to make travel affordable to connect families.
Warwick F:
That was their reason for being. So, if you join that, it was like, “Well, that’s a purpose in life outside of yourself that you can believe in.” Who wouldn’t want to make, especially 20 years ago, when airline travel is not cheap, but it was much more expensive in days gone by, who wouldn’t want to help families get together through affordable travel? So, some of the smart companies, at least I observe, are drifting towards, because their employees want it, younger people want purpose and meaning. So do you see, I don’t know if there’s any data on this, but do you see some of that even in the West, maybe it’s not because of living longer that there’s a desire for meaning and purpose in life and that might be a lot of different things, it’s not organized religion or anything, but there is a sense that people yearn for purpose there’s almost a growth in that desire. Do you see that at all in the West?
Marta Z:
I mean, I’ve heard about it, I haven’t seen hard data on intergenerational differences. I’ve definitely seen data on how the pandemic has changed our search for meaning for the better. In general when times are tough, humans start to look for purpose and meaning and there are several surveys right now showing that many people in the pandemic are looking more for purpose and meaning than they were before. And I think this is a very good change, both from society’s perspective, our mental health perspective and also from our health and longevity perspective. So, it’s certainly good news that it’s shifting our focus and making us look at those things a little bit more.
Gary S:
This is a perfect time to inject this bit of information, Marta, that you said in your article in the Washington Post that got Warwick excited to have you on the show. You indicated that according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention four out of 10 Americans haven’t yet managed to find purpose in their lives. And I did, just before we hopped on this call, I did a quick survey of four in 10 Americans on Google, just to see what else four in 10 Americans have done.
Gary S:
And here’s the interesting thing, I’m not a big statistics guy, I’m a word guy not a number guy, but it seems like four in 10 tends to be the figure that’s used for things that aren’t good, right? So four in 10 Americans, for instance, have no idea have no idea how credit scores work, okay? Four in 10 Americans are now obese, that’s germane to this conversation. Four in 10 Americans from a study in 2015 breathe polluted air and then my favorite one, which is not good, is four in 10 Americans said that they would rather give up their dog than give up their phone.
Marta Z:
Oh my goodness. That’s bad.
Gary S:
That’s terrible. And it goes exactly against what we have been talking about. So I bring that to you to say, yes, if people are anecdotally, you’re hearing people are moving toward more of that, why is it so hard still that 40% are still having a hard time finding that purpose and what, based on your research maybe, is a tip or two you could give them to help get them in the right direction to find what we would call, a life of significance?
Marta Z:
I mean, it’s just spending time on it. I think people just don’t put it on their schedule to just sit down without looking at their phones and just think about, “What’s my purpose and meaning?” And I believe anybody can find it, it can be found everywhere. There was this one fascinating study I’ve read about hospital workers, and it was actually about the cleaning staff of hospitals and some of them considered their jobs absolutely horrible, they were like, “Oh, it’s horrible, I’m cleaning the toilets. It sucks, it’s a bad job. I don’t like it.” And so on, but there was also a small part of those hospital workers who actually said that they loved their jobs because they give them amazing sense of meaning. And the reason for that was that they had a different perspective on what they were doing.
Marta Z:
So, they didn’t consider themselves as just people who cleaned toilets, they considered themselves as people who are helping the patients get better and the doctors and nurses to work better and generally to help the hospital function and bring people back to health. They felt that cleaning the floor was keeping the germs away, clean toilets was making it more pleasant for the patients. So just by shifting the focus, they made exactly the same job suddenly really good and giving them purpose and meaning. So I really believe that most people can find in their jobs and what can find in their jobs and what they’re doing, some kind of sense of meaning. But you have to really try, you have to spend some time to think about those things, what could it be? Can it be your family or maybe your community involvement or anything. Even when we’re talking about kindness, which is related to purpose and meaning. Research shows that acts of kindness can lower levels of our stress hormone, cortisol and generally change our gene expression. But the kind acts they are talking about, they’re usually quite small.
Marta Z:
It doesn’t require some huge, donating $1 million to charity. You can for instance just open doors for someone to let them ahead of you. You can let people ahead of you in traffic. You can pick up trash in your neighborhood. Just really small things. And yet they make all the difference. And I think it’s the same thing with purpose. Of course it’s great if your purpose in life is to save the world from climate change, awesome, but it can also be something small, very small steps and it’s all about shifting your perspective and just thinking about those things in the first place.
Warwick F:
One other related thing on purpose I find fascinating, I think you write it in your article and in the book is, when, as we say, you go through crucible experiences, sometimes there can be greater meaning and purpose. You write about World War II there was a greater sense of purpose, I think, in France than almost any other time since or something. There’s a sense of, “We’re fighting against Nazi Germany and the resistance and many acts of heroism. I think in your article you talk about Viktor Frankl the Austrian psychiatrist and Holocaust survivor that hypothesized that higher purpose gives people a will to stay alive. And it’s horrific, the experiences. Talk about how sometimes nobody want’s to go through crucible experiences but sometimes our purpose in life or our purpose can come amidst very challenging circumstances?
Marta Z:
So I had this other article in the Washington Post the post-traumatic growth and this is a phenomenon recognized in psychology as something sometimes comes after post-traumatic stress disorder. Which of course, is a very bad thing to happen to you when you have this kind of traumatic experience. But for 13% of the people research is still uncertain for how many, depends on various factors, they can actually experience growth. So they consider themselves as stronger and more connected to other people and generally better off then they would otherwise have been if this traumatic event has not happened to them. Which is absolutely fascinating and this research has been done on war prisoners on victims of hurricanes and earthquakes and really people who have traumatic experiences.
Marta Z:
And yet if they manage to, especially if they manage to talk through it with other people, if they manage find, exactly purpose and meaning perhaps in the experience they can emerge even stronger than they would’ve otherwise been. Which, for me, it really gives me hope that even if something really, really bad happens, there can be still something positive perhaps coming out of it. Especially now that we are living in this pandemic and we know from previous studies on the first SARS epidemic that a lot of healthcare workers and people who were hospitalized, they experience PTSD but there are also emerging studies showing that there were also people experiencing post-traumatic growth after the SARS pandemic. So there are potentially some silver linings here.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, as we sum up, what fascinated me about your book and the article was just we talk a lot to our listeners about how you bounce back from crucibles. It could be your fault or not your fault, failure, setbacks and as Gary always says at the end of the podcast, crucibles don’t have to be the end of your story. They can be the beginning of exciting new chapter. And what I like about what you write in your book is, you provide really a roadmap, in a sense, I mean, it’s not necessarily your purpose, but you write a roadmap of how to recover from crucible experiences just by following the data.
Warwick F:
By obviously finding purpose and as you find purpose you want to do it in community because you’re going to need support, you don’t want to be alone. Thinking of others, kindness, empathy, meditation, prayer, different ways to get internally centered. These are all things to get beyond crucibles and live a fulfilling, satisfying life. I mean, pretty much every chapter has an aspect, committed relationships, that really help you live a, not just a long life, but a contented, joyful life. If you follow these things. Which, again, may not have been your purpose, but it does provide a roadmap for getting beyond crucibles and leading a joy-filled life. I mean it probably partly was your purpose too, but does that make some kind of sense?
Marta Z:
I mean, totally. This is why I also called the book Growing Young. It was not about becoming younger in a way that you’re going to have less wrinkles. It was about growing as a person, so you grow as a person, and if you grow as a person you also stay younger, you stay in better health, right? So, this was an extremely important aspect for me. And also find your worthy in a way that if we will improve we will become better, we become kinder more socially connected, find meaning, give back to the community, become more optimistic that we can actually also improve our health, both mental and physical.
Gary S:
Now, that sound that you heard, listener, was the captain turning on the fasten seat belts sign and we’re coming to the place where we need to land the plane. As that happens I’m duty-bound to tell you do not turn your phones on. Not only because the flight attendants say not to, but because as Marta’s been talking about spending too much time on your phones can be bad for your sense of purpose, for your longevity. Marta, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity as we begin to wrap up here to let listeners know how they can find out more about your book and find out more about you.
Marta Z:
I mean, so you can find it in all the usual book selling places from Amazon to all the small booksellers and you can also find it on my website, which is www.growingyoungthebook.com and you can find me on twitter and Instagram at @mzaraska so M-Z-A-R-S-K-A.
Gary S:
Excellent. Warwick, do you have a final thought, a final question before we wrap?
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, Marta, again thanks so much for being here. When I first read that article about purpose can help you live a longer life and then read the book, everything resonated. Having purpose defined as thinking of others, it could be a big purpose, climate change as you put it. But it could be just helping your neighborhood, like the folks in Japan. Just cleaning the sidewalks outside the house, not just so much for them, but just to make the whole street look better. I think of when you go to these Swiss villages and gosh every little house has some geraniums or flowers outside. I mean every single one, it’s just staggering and the sidewalks also look spotless. So, I don’t know, maybe they have a similar concept, but yeah, just this sense of caring for others, of optimism, committed relationships, community, internal centering mechanisms, whether it’s meditation or prayer.
Warwick F:
They will help you live longer, have more purpose and have more joy. So the fact that there’s some data behind doing things that seemed to me to be common sense and that actually says you will live longer and live healthier, I mean, I just found it very affirming and very encouraging. And I hope people will really pay attention to what you’ve said in your book and not ditch diet and exercise, which you’re not talking about that. Just do what you need to do to be healthy but don’t overly obsess about the latest supplement or the latest fad and don’t ignore the social side, the purpose side. You can do both, you do both you might actually be healthier and more joyful in all ways. I think your book is really, it has such an important message. It’s really a clarion call for people to… Don’t ignore the social side. So it was really very affirming, very challenging.
Marta Z:
Thank you.
Gary S:
Well, listener, that sound you heard was the landing gear landing on the tarmac. We have wrapped this episode of Beyond the Crucible. Here again is Growing Young, Marta Zaraska’s book. So please, get it, it’s a fascinating read. It’s one of those that people in your household get upset with you because you open it up and you can’t put it down. And they’re like, “Come to dinner.” “Wait a minute, I have to read more, there’s still more to come.” But one of the things that it points out, before I summarize some take aways here, one of the things I think it points out, if I had to summarize it and I wrote this on my notes, is that doing the things in this book, finding your purpose and applying your purpose and living your purpose make the world a better place and let you enjoy it longer. And those are two great things to put together. You’re improving your environment, your improving your world and your improving your life in terms of you can live longer.
Gary S:
And to that end, listener, here are some take aways and I’m going to, for the take aways, I’m going to use the statistics and I’m going to preface some of these statistics with Marta’s explanation that there’s are not set in cement, these are from different studies with different methodologies and so don’t take this the statistics so much to heart as you would the arrow that they point toward. That these are good statistics, they’re not walking around quoting them verbatim may not because they’re not all universal. But from this book I have pulled three tips, one is, volunteering lowers your risk of death by 22%. That is a fascinating statistic. And again, don’t get hung up on the number, get hung up on the arrow. Volunteering can make your life longer and better and the benefit of that, if you volunteer to help someone who’s lonely, that helps their life as well. The second thing is, improving close relationships has a 45% again, don’t get hung up on the number, it has a great impact on your longevity, by improving close relationships.
Gary S:
Having those people that Marta described who will call you up when you’re sick and bring you soup or bring you medicine. Those kind of people, even in this situation we’re in now with the pandemic. You can still have close relationships and you can still work on those things. And then the one that I ended our conversation with. This statistic is a bit stark but it’s one of those statistics we can change, 40% in the US haven’t found their purpose yet. Here’s the good news about that, we can change it. You can put down your phone, you can unplug your video game. You can watch this, if you’re on YouTube, if you’re not I’m going to describe for you what I’m doing, I am taking off my fitness tracker. You can take off your fitness tracker and not be obsessed about it. If you do those things then you think about it and take, as Warwick often has said, when you think about your purpose you think about your purpose and you can take, as Warwick often says one small step toward it.
Gary S:
What that small step is, is going to vary for everybody listening to this conversation. But that’s how you find your purpose. Think about it and then act on it, take one small step to find out what that might be that aligns with your values and your talents and then go pursue it. So, listener, until the next time that we’re together here on Beyond the Crucible, thank you for spending time with us in this truly enlightening conversation with Marta Zaraska. If you would do a favor for Warwick and I, click, subscribe to the podcast app on which you’re listening to this show right now. That helps us reach more people with these kinds of conversations, which are eye-opening. And hopefully experience opening for you as it leads you down the road to pursue that life of purpose.
Gary S:
And until we are together the next time, remember this, that your crucible experiences is painful and it’s real and we know that. We’ve been through those things but it does not have to be the end of your story. In fact, it will not be the end of your story, if you learn the lessons of that crucible, if you apply the lessons of that crucible to your life as you move forward. The reason it’s not the end of your story, the reason it’s the beginning of a new chapter in your story and the most rewarding chapter of your story is that, that new chapter, that new experience, those lessons you’ve learned applied to your life as you go forward can lead you to a life of significance.
Chris Leeuw had his entire life ahead of him — and it looked very bright. A self-described “adrenaline junkie,” he reveled in outdoor activities like water-skiing and kayaking and loved his job in local TV news. It all changed in a tragic instant. Chris, at 28, was paralyzed from the neck down in a freak recreational diving accident — and thought he’d never walk or be able to care for himself again. But despite the physical and financial crucibles he faced, he refused to give up. Chris let every physical sensation he began to feel again fuel his drive to pursue the most cutting-edge treatment and rehabilitation — and work tirelessly to achieve the healing he once dared not imagine was possible. Now, just more than a decade later, he has regained much of his mobility and something just as life-changing: a passion for helping others with spinal-cord injuries via the nonprofit rehabilitation center he founded.
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Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Chris L:
So, we counted to three, jumped off feet first. And I remember falling, and I can hear the velocity. It was a long drop. Looking at the water, and then I hit the water. I knew something was drastically wrong. And it’s hard to sort of explain it other than the feeling of as if I had got hit by stun gun or something like that. It was a far drop, the water was cold. At first, I thought maybe I had whiplash or something. But all I could tell was it was as if I’d been hit by a stun gun and I was totally completely frozen. I just couldn’t move anything. I didn’t feel anything. There was no pain. I didn’t feel like anything had hit me. But I was in the water, and I couldn’t move, and I was utterly frozen. And I remember just being in complete confusion, but I couldn’t move. And I was just floating in between the water and the ground. I always mention that it felt like I was an astronaut drifting somewhere in space.
Gary S:
That’s a pretty dramatic story, isn’t it? But would you believe it’s not the most dramatic thing about the crucible experience of our guest today. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger co-host of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. Today’s guest is Chris Leeuw. And what he just described was a devastating recreational diving accident that left him a quadriplegic, and in an instant tragedy that almost killed him. But as you’ll hear in his conversation with Warwick, Chris refused to let paralysis be the end of his story. After two years of arduous rehab complicated by some setbacks with his insurance coverage, he battled back not only to regain movement and mobility, but to found a non-profit rehab center where he lives his life of significance helping others move beyond their physical and emotional crucibles.
Warwick F:
Well, Chris, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it. You have just an amazing story in how you’ve come back from what… I mean, it’s hard to believe what you have, achieved is probably not the right word, but what you’ve overcome. It is almost literally unbelievable. I’m sure a lot of people have said what you did is maybe not impossible, but close. So obviously the turning point in your life was that spinal cord injury. But tell me a bit about Chris Leeuw and growing up and career. And what was life like before age 28? What was the before story, so to speak?
Chris L:
Well, thanks for having me, Warwick. It’s really good to talk to you and Gary, good to see you both. And I appreciate you thinking of me in your podcast. The premise of your podcast definitely relates to my life. I know it relates to a lot of other people as well, struggles we go through. So I appreciate you having me on. Obviously, my life changed a lot as you heard in the introduction. But early on, wondering about pre-injury and pre life-changing moment. I was hurt at age 28. But before then, I think I was always a very active individual. I was an adrenaline junkie a little bit. A little bit how I got paralyzed, and you’ll probably recognize that. But I grew up in Indianapolis in a very fortunate upper middle-class family.
Chris L:
My family is amazing. They were a huge part of my recovery. They were a huge part of the clinic I’m in now. I grew up very fortunate having that nuclear family. I always had a sense of adventure, I was always active. I was always the guy that was, you couldn’t keep me still getting into activities here and there and always wanting to do more. And I think that sort of led me to my first career path, which was in television and news. I was drawn to being a reporter because think about what a reporter does, they’re out and about, they’re doing stories, doing the community. No day is different. I really found that to be a big part of who I was as a person early on, never wanting to sit still, always wanting to get out there and do things.
Warwick F:
So, as you were growing up were things you liked to do with your mom and dad, I mean, sports, you’re a very active person. Were there things that you just loved doing?
Chris L:
I had two passions when I was younger. One of them was water skiing and wakeboarding. I did that since about the age five or six. I was on a pair of skis and I was on the Indiana University Water Ski Club and I actually taught water skiing and wakeboarding in college in the Berkshire, Massachusetts mountains. And the one was playing the drums. I played the drums since I was about age five or six, too. My parents got me involved in activities because I was so restless all the time. And those are some of the things that I definitely had a passion for growing up.
Warwick F:
I can imagine. Don’t let Chris sit still. Keep him busy. Which makes sense. And so, reporting now. I mean, you mentioned you loved being on the go, but how did you pick that? And was that in Indianapolis or where did you start out with TV reporting?
Chris L:
I majored in telecommunications and business at Indiana University. I really liked, I really enjoyed the filmmaking part of it as well. So, that was part of the whole thing that drew me into journalism. But also just the storytelling part. I always liked a little bit of the adrenaline, I think of even just public speaking, and being live on air. There’s always is always nervous, but then afterwards, you liked it. So, maybe that was part of it that drew me to it as well. But a lot of it was just I didn’t see myself having an office job at that age in my early 20s, and I wanted to just do something that had to do with being active.
Warwick F:
That’s great. That was local, was it?
Chris L:
That’s how I gravitated toward that. And then I actually I went to graduate school for journalism after my undergraduate degree, but there are definitely times between there that I was bouncing around not knowing I was going to do exactly with life. It wasn’t like I was like, “Okay, as soon as I graduate, I’m going to go into this profession. So, I guess to answer your question, I started in Indiana. I also worked at some news stations in Florida, and then back to Indiana.
Warwick F:
Okay.
Gary S:
This is the first time… I just have to note this for the record. This is the first time on Beyond the Crucible that we have three people with journalism backgrounds all sharing the microphones.
Chris L:
It’s true.
Gary S:
We’ve got Chris, a former television journalist. Gary, the co-host, a former newspaper journalist, and Warwick, former magnate who owned a company that owned both print and electronic journalism outlets. So, look at us.
Chris L:
There you go.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So, I never actually was a reporter. But yeah, on the different sides. So talk about that fateful day. As I was understanding it was Southern Indiana. You were kayaking. It was just a probably beautiful warm day. You were out as you love doing in nature and water. I guess you weren’t quite water skiing, but you were kayaking. And you must have thought, “Boy, life is just awesome.” You’re with some buddies. So, take us through that day because it started out probably as just a wonderful warm day.
Chris L:
Yeah, it was a 95 degree hot, humid, Midwestern day. And I was with two of my best friends, and we were kayaking. And it’s one of those things where a typical summer Sunday you’re having fun with your friends. I was at the age where… At age 28, you have your life ahead of you. At that point you don’t really realize it at the time. I mean, I’m 39 now so there’s been 11 years that have passed since then I’ve learned a whole lot. But that day I look back at that day often. And you just no idea what’s in store in life in general. You think you have things figured out even when you’re young at that age, going into the professional world. But obviously, I had no idea what was in store for me later that afternoon.
Chris L:
So we’re kayaking on this river, and we approach this bridge that’s over the river. It’s an abandoned bridge. It’s a truss bridge. And there were some people jumping off the bridge into the water, maybe about 20 feet or so into the water deep water, not overly dangerous, and was with my friends and we were like, “Oh yeah, we’re jumping off that bridge, too.” That’s supposed to be fun.
Warwick F:
Adrenaline junkies after all.
Chris L:
Yeah, I mean, it was hot. It was fun. I mean, it wasn’t anything more dangerous than maybe jumping off the high dive. It wasn’t ultimately that dangerous. But then jumped off a couple times, but then there was this higher truss, one of these big vertical beams that went way up higher about an extra 30 feet. And then I decided to climb up that as well. So I kind of scaled up this vertical beam up to the very top beam probably about 50, 60 feet above the water. And I always tell people, it felt like one of those construction pictures you see of New York City with people and the hardhats on.
Chris L:
That’s what it felt like on this beam over the treetops, and I’m about to jump off, and I hear this voice from down below, someone telling me to wait. It was a stranger. I didn’t know who he was. But I kind of looked down and said, “Okay, come on up if you want to jump with me.” I’m always good having a partner. So, I waited for him to climb up and we’re both sitting there like two birds on a little perch on a wire.
Chris L:
I can remember the conversation pretty clearly. I have been up there for a while, and I wanted to get off that beam. And he was like, he said to me, he said, “Wow, look you can see everything up here.” I remember cutting him off mid sentence, and I was like, “Yeah, that’s great. I’m going to jump in three seconds. So, are you ready?” And he said, “Yep.” So we counted to three, and jumped off feet first. And I remember falling, and I can hear the velocity when you… It was a long drop, looking at the water, and then I hit the water. I knew something was drastically wrong.
Chris L:
It’s hard to sort of explain it other than the feeling of as if I would’ve got hit by a stun gun or something. There was a far drop, the water was cold. At first, I thought maybe I had whiplash or something. But all I could tell was it was as if I had been hit by a stun gun, and I was totally completely frozen. I just couldn’t move anything. I didn’t feel anything. There was no pain. There was no… I didn’t feel like anything had hit me, but I was in the water, and I couldn’t move, and I was utterly frozen.
Chris L:
I remember just being in complete confusion. But I couldn’t move, and I was just floating in between the water and the ground. I always mention that it felt like I was an astronaut drifting somewhere in space. But I was frozen, I couldn’t move. After a few moments, I didn’t think about drowning at that moment, but it was pretty soon after that where that started being a very concern of mine. And after what felt like five minutes, it was probably only about maybe 10 or 15 seconds I felt this strange feeling on my back. And that’s when I realized that, okay, at least I was on the surface, but I was still head down facedown in the water. Yeah, I couldn’t I couldn’t move.
Chris L:
What happened was it turned out the gentleman that jumped with me, we jumped at the same time, we fell at about the same rate, he ended up coming in right on top of me as we struck the water simultaneously, and just snapped my neck at this fourth cervical level. So, just like that I was totally paralyzed from the neck down.
Warwick F:
This wasn’t one of your buddies, it was just some other guy that was there, right?
Chris L:
Right. Yeah. He was another person that was watching us jump.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So you didn’t… And so, as you’re up there, 50 foot up, and you’re about to go were you thinking that you were going to jump together? Or hey, let’s do it together? You didn’t think about, “Oh, gee, what could happen?” You think you’re just going to both jump on the water? It’s just not one, two, three, let’s go. It’s just-
Chris L:
Exactly, yeah.
Warwick F:
It doesn’t occur to you that that could even happen.
Gary S:
And it probably didn’t seem that different. I’ve seen when romantic couples dive off of cliffs, they hold hands and they jump at the same time. So, I would think why you guys probably weren’t holding hand is the fact that you jumped together at the same time didn’t seem that unordinary, right?
Chris L:
Right. Yeah, It didn’t at all. No, I mean, we weren’t holding hands, but we were very close to one another because the way up to that top truss was just this one vertical beam. And once you’re up on that beam, it’s not like we were walking around. It was so high. I didn’t think about it. But in hindsight I really beat myself up over it. Because I was like we were so close to each other when we jumped, we didn’t even think about it. And that’s what did it. We were just so close to each other.
Warwick F:
So, in that moment when obviously your face down, you can’t move, you’re not probably thinking, “Oh, gosh, I must be paralyzed.” You’re just confused, right? It’s like, “I don’t know what’s happening.” So, talk us through those first few moments, first maybe hour or two. I mean, what was going through your head?
Chris L:
The worst. I actually did sort of… Well, when I was facedown in the water I knew obviously something was wrong. I was very, very close to drowning because I was face down drifting a little bit. And I remember when you get to that point, if you’ve ever tried holding your breath underwater, you get to see how long you can do it. You get to that point where alarms going off in your head. I was definitely at that point. About the last second I started feeling someone tug my body and flipped me over. Then the second that happened, I just screamed out. I was like, “I’m awake, I’m awake. I’m conscious,” because I figured a lot of people might have thought I was unconscious. It was the guy that jumped on me. He eventually got to me, and flipped me over, and dragged me to shore.
Chris L:
As soon as I was on the shore, a lot of the commotions had stopped. But still it’s a very surreal feeling being paralyzed. It’s very surreal because just thinking, maybe this is going to wear off. Maybe it’s a little bit of whiplash. Within the span of a couple minutes you go from this carefree summer Sunday to constantly all of a sudden thinking that you see the no diving signs on swimming pools, and you hear the stories of people like Christopher Reeve who’s famous for he really is one of the people in the ’90s that put spinal cord injuries on the map and all those things ran through my head, too.
Chris L:
I think even in that early moments on that beach I just said, “Okay, just get up, just move. You can do this, just move.” And when you can’t, feeling like you’re stuck in concrete I started to realize that, okay, as the minutes went on that this was serious. I had been a lifeguard. So, I had done back boarding drills, and I some of those things are always in the back of your mind like, “Okay, well, do I have a spinal cord injury? Is this happening?”
Warwick F:
So, all those thoughts were in your mind.
Chris L:
They were.
Warwick F:
You knew, obviously, this was serious. And so, I mean, I suppose it’s inevitable, the sense of fear, panic. I mean, were all those pain. I mean, all those thoughts, physical and emotional all running through your mind in those first minutes and hours.
Chris L:
All of it. Yeah, a helicopter was called in, and they actually airlifted me to a hospital in Indianapolis, which was about half an hour away. I think when it really hit me was the next day when I had woken up out of surgery because they had gone under. They had reconstructed my neck. But the next the next morning when I woke up from surgery is the first time that I had fallen asleep and really woken back up to the reality. And I was on a ventilator. I had this tube down my throat that was breathing for me because my lungs were partially paralyzed. I can remember waking up… And the whole time I was totally conscious, even the moment I was injured. Nothing happened to my brain. I was never knocked unconscious. I was thinking and talking the way I am now. But that’s when it really hit me, was this the rest of my life?
Chris L:
It’s really the emotions that run through your mind not only not moving again. So many people think about, “Oh, yeah, I’ll never walk again.” But once you’re introduced to what it’s like being a quadriplegic where you need people to arrange your limbs. You need to so you don’t get bedsores. You need someone to cath you because you’d have no bowel and bladder function. And you are completely 100% dependent on everything. I get introduced to that part of the world in those early days and weeks in the ICU and in the hospital. And you think your life’s over. At the age of 28 I thought my life was over. And particularly as family and friends, they come visiting. It very much felt like I was living through my own weight. It was hard. Obviously, it goes without saying.
Warwick F:
What you’re saying is obviously the pain is one thing, but for somebody that was so active, the sense of the active Chris Leeuw is no more. The kayaking, the wakeboarding, the even newspaper reporting. I mean, it’s obviously possible in this day and age, but you’re just thinking, “Gosh,” I think of, I’m sure you’re familiar Joni Eareckson Tada who was paralyzed in a diving accident on the late ’60s, I don’t know at 16, 17, and she’s a person of faith and just had a radio show since. I don’t know if it’s 50 plus years that she’s been a quadriplegic and she was a horse rider and her life was permanently changed.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, I’ve read her book, listened to her story. It takes hours to get out of bed and hours to get ready for bed and there’s people helping her whole life. Obviously, fortunately, your trajectory changed a bit but that’s feeling of helplessness. People mean well and gee, Chris, how can I help you? What can I do for you? That’s very kind of them. They’re probably feeling I don’t want people to have to help me. I want to do this myself. Thank you for offering but all that niceness and kindness and helping you it probably some weird way was a bit depressing. Does that make any kind of sense?
Chris L:
It does. Suddenly, you need people to feed you and you need people to… You can’t even be upright in bed without your blood pressure dropping. All these little things happen when you’re quadriplegic. Helplessness is a very big… I felt completely helpless. Not only physically, but also just where my life was going to be going from that point on. Depending on the age of some of your listeners, if they’re in the older generation, you think back to when they were aged 28 and maybe in the beginning of having a family and all that and the beginning of a career and having a life in front of you, and all of a sudden having it snuffed out. Or if you’re a younger person now, think about right now, you think you have a problem now. You’re complaining about something. Well, all of that could change in the next 10 minutes, and that’s something that when all those thoughts are flooding your mind early on. Like I mentioned before, I 100% thought that my life was over.
Warwick F:
Yeah, and just hard to imagine how could I have a life as a quadriplegic? I mean, it’s not easy. It’s possible but at that moment it must have felt like as you say, life is over. So there’s the whole physically what do I do and we’ll get into your journey here very shortly, because that’s fascinating. But there’s also the recrimination side. It’s easy objectively to look to say, “Look, two young guys, they jump off things happen.” If it’s not you it’s easy to be objective and say, “Look, yeah, maybe it wasn’t the smartest thing to be up 50 foot, but plenty of people do that. The water was deep. It wasn’t that crazy.” So, if you’re not you, you can look at it objectively. But did you look back and get angry at yourself, angry at this person you didn’t know that jumped at the same time? Were there some self recrimination or anger at others? Was that any part of the whole mix of emotions in there?
Chris L:
I was very mad at myself. I was very mad at myself. Nothing toward the other person. In fact, he’s the one that saved my life because I almost drowned. I don’t mean this in any sort of exaggeration. I was maybe within a few seconds of drowning. That’s how long that I was face down floating. Yeah, I just beat up myself for like I said earlier, just being so close to each other. I was like, “Why did I not think of that?” Yeah, there was particularly, and a lot of a lot of those early days in the hospital. The nights were always the worst early on. When I moved to the hospital, I moved to the rehabilitation hospital, and even into the nursing home. My friends and family were around me all the time. But a lot of times at night, when I was there by myself, and I could do nothing but stare up at the ceiling. And just trying to comprehend what had happened as the weeks went by.
Chris L:
I think it’s okay to wallow in some of those situations, in any struggle you go through in life. But at some point you definitely have to move on. It takes a while to do that, particularly. And I know for my situation that as I was learning about my injury, and it’s been 11 years and part of me still wallows in some of the things that I can’t do anymore because I still do have a lot of… I still live with my injury quite a bit. But yes, that was a very long winded answer. But yes, there was definitely a lot of beating myself up.
Gary S:
Can I jump in and say something from the sheet that you gave us, Chris, because it goes to exactly the point that you’re talking about right now. And it’s interesting because you were 28, and Warwick when you went through your crucible with the takeover that’s roughly the age you were. And I know you went through some of that self recrimination stuff as well. But you said something, Chris, that dovetails off what you just said to us in your sheet that you gave us which was this. Everyone will encounter a devastating struggle in life. One person’s struggle can’t be compared to another’s. But whatever you encounter, you cannot let it define you. You can’t dwell. Find the fortitude to move on, and you will.
Gary S:
I think I’m hearing you, obviously, your experience and where you are now, what we’re going to get into as Warwick asks you more questions here in a bit is going to show that and Warwick listeners already know that’s your story as well. You had some struggle at the same age and you were able to move on. So again, we have this conversation a lot on this show. The details of your crucible can be different. And listener, you may not have become a quadriplegic in a “freakish accident.” And you certainly may not have lost a multi-billion dollar family media company, but the emotions behind them as you listen to Chris talk and you’ve heard Warwick talk, those emotions of man, I messed up. Man, I should have done that differently. Those emotions are legit. Those emotions are common, and you can get beyond them. These two gentlemen have proven that.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, Gary, so well said. I mean, it’s as you said, you can’t compare crucibles and what I went through, I feel like it’s nothing compared to what Chris has gone through and the physical emotional pain. But yet, yeah, I mean, listeners will have gone through all sorts of different crucibles. And it’s true. I mean, when I think of my life altering moment it was late March 1982 when I launched this $2 billion takeover. Once I pushed that button, life was never going to be the same. It caused a lot of friction within my family saying, “Why do you need to do that?” I was young, and idealistic thought, as listeners know, management needed to be changed, brought back to the ideals of the founder.
Warwick F:
Doesn’t really matter so much whether that was right or wrong, but it was life altering, and we’re fine financially. But I don’t live in Australia anymore. I mean, it’s just my wife’s American, which is very public. And still to this day there are times in which I look back and say, “I mean, I had an undergrad degree at Oxford, a Harvard Business School degree. How could I have been so stupid in doing that takeover? I mean, what a moron. I mean, why did I do it? Look, I’ve had decades to move on and I love what I do with Crucible Leadership, but it’s easy to be angry at yourself, or maybe little, slightly angry at other family members because if the family had been more together, maybe it wouldn’t have felt it was necessary. But it’s that sense of just trying to force yourself to move on.
Warwick F:
There’ll always be days when you reflect and think a bit about the terrible day. And again, I’m not trying to compare because what you went through is far more pain in a lot of ways, but yeah, no, I get what you’re saying, Gary, and it’s well said. So talk about you are in the hospital for I think a number of months, and that didn’t last forever. You’re making small progress. So, you went through a lot of mini-crucibles a lot of after that big one, a lot of steps. I mean, how did you have the perseverance just to want to not give up because it’s clear to me, you never gave up on life. You never said I’m not going to just sit here, I’m going to do whatever I can to get maximum recovery, whatever that might mean, right? How did you have that kind of determination to just keep trying?
Chris L:
I think… Well, first off a little bit, I’ll give you a very brief spinal cord injury 101, which is when I was hurt I knew nothing about it either. You assume you have a spinal cord injury and that’s it. But every injury is totally different. Same with a brain injury, same with a stroke. You don’t know how much damage has been done to your nervous system and mine was significant, clearly, because here I was several weeks out of my injury. And as the months rolled by, I’m still a quadriplegic, but I started getting very small bits of movement back within the first week or so below where my injury happened. I could start to twitch a couple muscles like I’d start to flex. I remember my very first muscle I could move was my inner thigh consciously. And that was a huge sign because that meant that, okay, there was some signals that my brain was going that was think about your spinal cord injury is like a bruise on your spinal cord, like a beaver dam or something. And all of a sudden, nothing can go through that.
Chris L:
Well, there was some signals going through that. Doctors would tell me, my therapist would tell me, we don’t know if that’s all you’re going to get back, or if more will come. But the bottom line is, you need a lot of time. And over the course of I was in my rehabilitation hospital where I was getting daily physical therapy, occupational therapy, even speech therapy, because I had to learn how to breathe again in a lot of ways. Of course, my lungs are paralyzed. I was getting that every single day. And I was getting movement back. Little bits of movement back and after two months, I could actually move my foot a little bit. I could move some fingers, that was about it. I started realizing that I had potential. But all of a sudden, in spite of a really fantastic insurance plan through my employer. I was working at a communications company at the time, insurance was capped.
Chris L:
Insurance said, “You have been in this rehabilitation hospital for a while.” I was there longer than most. Now, the average stay at a rehabilitation hospital insurance covered in the US is about two weeks. I was there for two months, which was longer than most, but still insurance basically capped. And we were fighting it all along the way. I think my first denial came within a couple of weeks they said that I had plateaued. That’s the key word in that industry. When you plateau, okay your recovery is stopping now, we got to get you home. And then what I found out was a lot of the rehabilitation I was doing was to get me home quicker because they said, “Okay, you need to get fitted for a power wheelchair. You need to make sure your home is adaptive. You need to make sure that your caregivers know how to cath you and feed you and arrange your limbs. That became the care, which is very important, but it stopped becoming necessarily working on recovery.
Warwick F:
Does it almost feel like the insurance is more geared for the insurance company to get you out of hospital and free a bed for somebody else? They wanted to recover, but it does feel like the insurance company’s agenda and your agenda was not totally the same?
Chris L:
A little bit. Yeah, because, I mean, I think insurance companies look at the statistics that I was a C4 spinal cord injury. And after a couple of weeks out of my injury, they say, “Look, this guy he’s got to get home, he can’t be in rehabilitation forever.” The healthcare costs are astronomical. So they move people home very quickly. And that’s really the way it is for a lot of really serious injuries.
Warwick F:
It may be valid and rational from the seat where they sit with actuarial tables and all and data, and you obviously got to make some decision. But from your perspective, I think you were there eight weeks. You hadn’t given up. You were showing signs of improvement, you didn’t want to stop.
Chris L:
That was the irony. The irony was I was slowly getting to the point where I could have used more of all these tools I saw in the therapy gym that I couldn’t use when I first got there because I was nothing but a head on a pillow. I started being able to move some things that okay, now I can maybe participate in more aggressive rehabilitation, but nope, sorry, I had to be discharged. And the option was to come back for outpatient therapy a couple times a week. I think for about a month or go to a nursing home. And at that time we chose a nursing home because I could still get some daily physical therapy, occupational therapy there. That was a very difficult decision because nursing homes didn’t know how to care for quadriplegic. But my parents, my family and friends, I was very fortunate in that regard. They were at my side every day to help me through that was that as I discharged to a nursing home. I was at a nursing home for about another four months.
Warwick F:
And they were willing to help you, work with you, learn what they needed to learn, and it felt like you made more progress over those months in the nursing home. It may not have been ideal, but you made more progress.
Chris L:
I did. I made some more progress because more time had passed, and I was still getting daily therapy. So six months after my injury, I couldn’t move my arms at all, but I actually could actually… I could start to move. I could start to sit up in bed, and I could actually stand and you’re talking about six months after a spinal cord injury. Now six months seems like an awful long time, and it was when you’re rehabbing from that. But in the course of a spinal cord injury after being paralyzed from the neck down after six months being able to actually take a couple steps. Those were huge.
Warwick F:
It must have felt like a miracle. I mean, each step, each finger being able to move it must have felt like you’d won the Super Bowl or something. There was a sense I can’t believe it. I did something else today.
Chris L:
It was and again I absolutely celebrated those wins. But at the same time, you never knew when it was going to stop. I was always like, “Hey, is this it?” I would always also be a little upset because I wasn’t getting more. Because in my mind, I just wanted to start running again. And I wanted to move my arms again and feed myself again. I couldn’t do any of those things.
Warwick F:
And you never know if tomorrow is going to be when you hit that brick wall in which 40 years will go by and you’ll never be able to move anything more than where you are, right?
Chris L:
It’s just a slow, slow process and you need so much aggressive rehabilitation for a long time.
Warwick F:
So how did you move from the nursing home because I think at some point you went to Neuroworx? Talk about what happened after the whole nursing home. You were there for months, making some improvement, but that I guess you felt like there needed to be a change or a change was forced upon you?
Chris L:
Yes. Well, I was actually booted out of the nursing home. I was actually then booted out of the nursing home for insurance, too, for the same reason. At that point, I was still in a wheelchair. But I had heard shortly after I was injured I had heard about this place in Salt Lake City, Utah called Neuroworx through a person I had worked with. And this was a place started by a physician named Dr. Dale Hull and a physical therapist named Jan Black. Dr. Hull had the same sort of injury I did and recognized there was a giant need. He worked with his therapist and they started this small little clinic that was aimed toward helping people after insurance was up and a place where you can go long term. They created Neuroworx. I was hurt in 2010. Neuroworx had already been around for a while. They were still relatively small. But that’s when I got to the point in the nursing home where I said, “Okay, maybe I can actually go across the country to this place because I knew I still need more rehabilitation.” I wasn’t even close to being done yet.
Chris L:
And then we realized, okay, maybe we could do that. So my mother and I, my mother was my caregiver. We flew across the country to Salt Lake City, Utah, and there was a small little apartment that had been donated to Neuroworx at the time. And my mother and I basically lived there in this little apartment, and we went to the Neuroworx every day, Monday through Friday, multiple hours a day for almost two years.
Warwick F:
Did insurance cover that or?
Chris L:
No, that that was the beauty of what Neuroworx was, was that if your insurance is up, and you want to self pay for a physical therapy visit, it usually costs $300 to $400 for an hour.
Warwick F:
Oh, my gosh.
Chris L:
That’s not affordable when you need hours a day for a year.
Warwick F:
No, no.
Chris L:
But Neuroworx would make it more affordable, and then they would fundraise to offset those costs. So my family did do a lot of fundraising to get out there. And we were definitely blessed by at the time I was working for a company called ChaCha, which was started by a man named Scott A. Jones who’s an entrepreneurial voicemail fame that had a lot of startup companies, and a very generous man that actually helped pay for me to get out there. And my family did some fundraising, too. But over the course of a year and a half, we basically self paid out of pocket, but at a very cheap rate. It wasn’t like-
Warwick F:
I mean, the fact… I mean, what would life have been like if there was no Neuroworx? They had both the technology, the training, and it was at least somewhat affordable. Your life would have been radically different, right?
Chris L:
It absolutely would have changed my life. Well, first thing it wasn’t the more rehabilitation that cured my spinal cord injury. But it was the fact that it turned out there was less damage to my spinal cord. But also it still took that access for a long time, and the care I received there. The first time I walked into Neuroworx at the time was the first time I’d ever seen this body weight support treadmill system and electrical stimulation machines, they had a pool therapy. They had these different resources that wasn’t available in a lot of other clinics because they realize that they’re expensive. Sometimes it takes multiple clinicians to use them properly, which is more money for the hospital systems. And to benefit, you need to be doing them for a long time. And when insurance only covers a certain amount of time, they say, “Okay, you’re not going to be able to have time to do this, let’s not even offer it.” And the care becomes what insurance will allow rather than what the patient needs.
Chris L:
Neuroworx saw this, I saw this and over the course of two years, every single day, hours a day relearning to walk, relearning to move my hands. Over the course of that time, I slowly but surely got to where I am now. I’m ambulatory now. I can walk. I still have some paralysis on my left side. But after two years in the spring of 2012, I actually drove myself all the way back home from Salt Lake City to Indianapolis, and I had sort of “beat” paralysis in a way. I had regained bowel and bladder function. I was walking again. If you would have told me that two years ago when the whole dream was, am I ever going to move again? And all of a sudden here I was walking again, it was very surreal. It took place over the course of two years, but it was still very surreal. We leaving Salt Lake City after two years.
Warwick F:
So, that experience really changed your life. It’s patient focus, they have the technology, the training. I mean, your sense of hope, which I mean, somehow through this whole journey even in those darkest days it felt like we unfortunately talk about this, you can wallow and say, “I’m angry, I’m bitter. And I’m just going to sit here for the next 40, 50 years.” Whether you’re paralyzed or emotionally paralyzed, or just feeling down about yourself, maybe you’re a victim of abuse. There’s a lot of reasons objectively it could be valid to wallow, but you never were like that. You just kept pushing and I’m guessing once you’re in Neuroworx your sense of optimism and hope and say, “This stuff is really working. I’ve got the training. I’ve got the support. I’m going to get some level of movement back, some level of my life back.”
Warwick F:
So, I want to talk a bit about NeuroHope. Not everybody has this sense of determination and hope. Where did that come from? I mean, is it family, or what? Maybe within you? I mean, over all these years, you kept pushing and trying, you never gave up. Where did that come from?
Chris L:
That’s a hard question to answer, I guess. I mean, I think what I experienced there, what I experienced just through my process, through the healthcare system, and then through how fortunate I was to actually beat paralysis when so many others can’t. Sometimes it’s because their injury is more severe, sometimes it’s because they may not have the access. It just really inspired me so much, and my family, too. My whole family involved. These injuries affect entire families. And collectively it just came to the point where when your life’s at stake is the way I felt, I’m going to do anything I possibly can to try to get it back. And that’s what I would constantly be reminding myself of, even in the early days, when I was lay at night focusing on some movement. I was like, “Okay, I’m just going to keep moving this foot, I’m going to keep moving this foot, I’m going to try to keep moving this arm, moving this arm.” I became borderline obsessed with the physiology of the injury and my chances of recovery.
Warwick F:
I almost wonder as I’m listening to you, your mindset, your whole life has been be active, go for it, don’t sit still. Maybe that served you well, in some ways, because you weren’t somebody to sit there and do nothing. So if you’re in rehab, you’re going to be going for it. You’re going to be as active as you can. Does that make sense? You have this never sit still mindset, and maybe in some ways that served you. I’m not going to just sit here. I’m going to twitch a muscle as much as I can and twitch the next muscle and may not be much, but I don’t know, I wonder whether your inherent active mindset helped you out there in some ways?
Chris L:
I think it certainly did. And we see the same thing with a lot of clients and patients that come that I rehab with. I mean, you really have to. It’s like you can’t just… It’s not up to the therapists. You have to have it in yourself as well to push yourself.
Warwick F:
You’ve got to make a decision that I’m not going to let this beat me. I’m going to do my level best to recover. I’m not going to be angry at myself. You obviously had to… It sounds a bit ridiculous, but you had to forgive yourself, even though objectively people say, “What’s there to forgive? He was young. People do that all the time.” But still, you were clearly angry at yourself, which objectively doesn’t feel that valid. But you had to do that. Because if you were… That bitterness could have held you back in your recovery. So you had to let go of the bitterness, I’m guessing or angry at yourself?
Chris L:
Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. I mean, I’m still mad at myself sometimes.
Warwick F:
There you go.
Chris L:
But I see what you’re saying, yeah. There were times where I’d be mad at myself and times where I said, “Okay, I got to swallow hard, and…
Warwick F:
You know what they say, what holds you back doesn’t serve you. So, it doesn’t serve you.
Gary S:
I can sense we’re going to shift gears and go into the creation of NeuroHope. But as we do that, as an on ramp, Chris, I want to refer to a little snippet of conversation we had before we pressed record on this conversation when you were talking about your crucibles. And you mentioned obviously your accident was a main crucible, the main crucible, but a secondary one was okay, now, what do I do with my life? And what we’ve seen, and I think this is going to bear out as you tell the story of NeuroHope we see this happen a lot. It happened for Warwick. The idea that your crucible can give birth to your life of significance can give birth to what you do out of that crucible.
Gary S:
Warwick goes through this failure that consumes a continent in that it’s all over Australia. And what does he do? He creates a philosophical and practical consultancy that helps people overcome failure and setback. You not only dealt with paralysis, but dealt with some issues around that like insurance, and how do you pay for it? And how do you do that? It seems to me it’s probably fair to say that out of your crucible, as you figure what do I do next, your life of significance, your vision for what was next came in large part because of that crucible, is that fair?
Chris L:
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, recovering from paralysis and what am I going to do as a quadriplegic was one life changing moment. But even early on, I never in a million years would have thought I would have created a clinic to help people. I was just thinking about will I ever walk again, if I get my life back in that regard. But when I came back home, two years after my injury triumphantly defeating paralysis. It’s like, okay, well, now what? I didn’t have a job anymore. I didn’t have… I was living with my sister. And I was still, most people would consider me disabled even now. So I can walk, I walk with a severe limp. I still don’t have use of my left arm. I’m very weak. I can only lift maybe 10 pounds. I still have a lot of significance for my injury. So, I still am a disabled person. And you never think that that’s ever going to happen to you.
Chris L:
So now I here I was back home again. Well, it’s like, “Okay, my life for two years was overcoming paralysis.” Well, now all of a sudden, it’s like I was home again, it’s like, okay, things are different. Now what? And that’s when I think, I guess the second crucible happened because I really… My whole family and I… Again, I mention my family. It really was a family affair. We just said let’s try to do what we experienced in Neuroworx. Why is there not a place like this in our community? Indianapolis is a big city with great healthcare providers. But there’s a very real void in care, and can we do something to address it. And that’s sort of where I made a big sacrifice. I was 30 years old, and I ended up living with my sister at a time when a lot of people when they’re 30, are starting to launch a career and have a family and do all those things.
Chris L:
I started a non-for-profit, not really knowing what we were going to do at first. It was going to like, let’s try to raise funds for maybe the local rehabilitation hospital. But I drew no salary, I live rent free with my sister, and that’s what I did. I had a part time job with a company that gave me a little bit of income. But over the course of the next couple years, we created a nonprofit, and then really tried to say, “Okay, is this possible?” Can we actually create some sort of a clinic? And the University of Indianapolis was the first group that really saw the vision I think early on. I thought maybe we could partner with them in some way. And then the major turning point was I met a physical therapist by the name of Nora Foster, who had come from the spinal cord world at a rehabilitation hospital. I met her, and she, from her perspective, from a clinician’s perspective, said, “Yeah, there’s a big void in here. We got to create something.”
Chris L:
And then when I met her, and we started launching, I’d already created the nonprofit. I’d already raised the same significant amount of money, and I didn’t know what we were going to do with it. That’s when we realized, okay, let’s do this on our own. We started in a very small, tiny room that was given to us rent free from the University of Indianapolis. We had nothing but a therapy mat, and Nora saw some of her first patients that had been discharged. And at that point we didn’t know we’re going to charge very affordable rates, and that was the point, the continuum of care for people. We had no spinal cord injury equipment, we needed some. I tell the story where I got my car, and I drove all the way to headquarters of a place called New Step where they make recumbent stepping machines for people with disabilities.
Chris L:
I kind of told the story and a piece to them and got a New Step donated to us. And then I drove to Minnesota to try to get the standing frame for people paralysis to get donate to us, and that worked as well. So then all of a sudden we had a couple two pieces of a rehab center in this little tiny room, and this was back in 2015. We started the reality of a center, some semblance of a little bit of a center began.
Warwick F:
To me, it’s just incredible because as you’re driving back from Utah, you could have said, “Okay, I’m still disabled, but I’m a lot more functional. Maybe I could do TV reporting, print journalism.” Certainly, I would have thought you might be able to do or some kind of communications field. I can go back to maybe not my total old life, but parts of it. You could have gone that track, some kind of communications. But maybe it’s obvious, I don’t know, but what led you to say, “Okay, that was my old life. But I don’t know that I want to go back to it. I want to use what I’ve been through to help others.” I mean, maybe it sounds obvious to people in hindsight, but life is never that obvious. Why did you choose this track rather than some other track?
Chris L:
It’s a good question. I started getting involved in some volunteer work when I was in my early 20s. And one of them was in your area of the world, in Australia. I still consider one of the best experiences of my life. Surely, and I’ll be pretty honest.
Warwick F:
It’s all good.
Chris L:
So, shortly after I graduated college, I kind of going back to what I said earlier, I was always on the go. I always wanted to do things and then see, experience things in life. I was with a group of students, total strangers, but we lived basically in the bush in New South Wales near a town called Bermagui. And there was this wildlife center. It was the very beginning of this conservation camp. So we basically lived with no power, no running water, but we were starting to build this student conservation camp, which now… This was in 2004, years later it’s been created. But that was one of the first experiences that I had really started to do something that was bigger than myself, and been involved in something for a community and doing something that just felt more meaningful.
Chris L:
And then a year after that, I was living in Portland, Maine. I was working as a lobster fisherman in Portland, Maine and Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. And it was sort of the same thing where I actually enrolled a bunch of classes with the American Red Cross, and I actually went down to New Orleans in the middle of after Hurricane Katrina for a month and helped with some water distribution routes there. It became kind of… I don’t know… It was something where I think maybe back then the years before my injury, I always sort of started realizing doing something more meaningful, and then fast forward to my injury and what I went through, then all of a sudden, it was a cause that hit me personally, and I just had the whole, to use another journalism term, the fire in the belly to do something.
Chris L:
Then all of a sudden, and my family was the same way. My sister had run nonprofits before in the past. She remains a big part of NeuroHope, and then together we just said, “We have to do this. We have to do this for the community.” And that’s, so I think, that’s always sort of been in me too, a little bit to do something bigger than myself and now all of a sudden this gave me a vehicle to try to do that. But if I had great backing and support, and sacrificing initiative to do it all.
Warwick F:
One of the things we find in Crucible Leadership a lot and in my own life I find this, the crucibles you go through, they’re never fun what you went through was excruciating, physically, emotionally, mentally, soul destroying, something that could have been. But yet, somehow, when you use what you’ve been through to help others, it doesn’t make it all better but it gives… I know that you’ve obviously heard this a million times pain for a purpose. The pain never goes away. You’ve got life altering injuries, which will never totally go away. But yet, when you make meaning out of it somehow in some small way it makes life a little bit easier, a little bit purposed. Does that make any kind of sense? This is not an original thought, but by making meaning of what you went through, was that also a step in your at least emotional, spiritual recovery, if you will?
Chris L:
Yes. It gives you perspective on life that you wouldn’t have… That I wouldn’t have ever had, had I not gone through what I went through. Whether that’s appreciation for things. I was always appreciative. I don’t want to make it sound like I wasn’t, but it’s one of those things where it’s like you put struggles into perspective. You put things that have value in life into perspective. Whatever your crucible is kind of what you mentioned earlier, Gary, whether it’s a divorce that may shake you to your core, or whether it’s the death of someone, a loved one that may shake you to your core, whether it’s losing your business. You go through those trials in life. And when you come out on the other side, you never would have had that perspective of how your life can move forward if it never would have happened.
Gary S:
That sound you just heard listeners is the captain turning down the fasten seatbelt sign indicating it’s getting close to the time to land the plane. Before we do that, however, I would be remiss, Chris, if I did not give you the opportunity to let listeners know how they can find out more about you and about NeuroHope.
Chris L:
Yes, so NeuroHope, you can google us, NeuroHope, N-E-U-R-O NeuroHope. Plenty will come up but our website is neurohopewellness.org, and we’re also on Instagram at NeuroHope. We have a lot of inspiring patient stories there. I had talked about how in the beginning we were a small clinic but now I have a staff of nine and we’re a hybrid. We’re a mixture where we do physical therapy, we also do wellness. And we have an amazing group of staff and we’re helping a lot of people, not only in the rehabilitation part, but in wellness and fitness for people that are recovering from injuries and that live with paralysis.
Gary S:
Warwick, I’ll let you get the last question. But I want to ask one question off of Chris’s form that he gave us because it’s interesting, and I can tell you’re an old journalist, Chris, because there’s a question that we have on here. If we could only ask you what question, what would you want it to be? And you had a great question here. I’d love to hear it, and I’m sure our listeners would love to hear the answer. What are you most grateful for in the journey that we’ve just talked about?
Chris L:
I actually just answered it.
Gary S:
Fantastic.
Chris L:
Perspective. It was the perspective that my life and injury has made me aware of because I wouldn’t have had it before. Like I said, I still mourn parts of my own life. I wish I could play the drums again. I wish I could get on some water skis and snow skis again. I wish I could run again and play basketball again. I can’t do any of those things. But the perspective on life that I have now prior to my injury is something that I never would have had if I didn’t go through what I’ve been through.
Warwick F:
Wow. Well, Chris, thank you so much for being here. Your story is inspiring. I mean, you’ve got the inspiration that others who have been injured physically that never giving up. You never know where your plateau is. It could be where people think it is, or it could be beyond. Until you try you never know. So there’s the whole physical side. But there’s the emotional and spiritual comeback of realizing your life from a career perspective, or in general wasn’t over. You used your pain to help others get the benefit of what you went through.
Warwick F:
I think what listeners hopefully appreciate is pretty sure that your life, despite the physical challenges has joy in it when you get to work with patients and you get to see maybe that one twitch of a finger, or a thigh muscle, and they have hope. And they’re getting better day by day. That’s got to fill you with, I’m making a difference in people’s lives. I’m giving them opportunities they might not have had, otherwise. And so, when you spend your life for a cause you believe in, in service of others. I mean, that does add joy to your life. I mean, is that a fair summary of how you feel and your experience with NeuroHope and what you do now?
Chris L:
Yes, I see a lot of people that have had journeys similar to mine that our team works with every day. And our team is unbelievable. The therapist and the trainers we have, you watch how they work with patients day in and day out and how much they care, and how much they impact our patients’ lives. It’s remarkable. It’s definitely one of those things sometimes where you sit back and realize what NeuroHope has grown thanks to the staff, and the group that we’ve gone around the lives, they’ve changed is something that is pretty remarkable.
Gary S:
And also remarkable is the perfect landing of the plane that that comment brought us to, Chris. Thank you for that. Before we go though listener, there are three I think takeaways from today’s conversation with Chris Leeuw that I think we can all think about as we move on. Number one, engage your tribe. Chris hadn’t even given the details of his own life changing crucible in this discussion before he mentioned what a help his family has always been to him pre-crucible and post-crucible and he talked about it several times throughout this discussion. When setbacks and failures strike lean into those close to you, friends and family for comfort, pep talks, logistical and motivational assistance. It worked for Warwick in his case, it worked for Chris in his story that he just told, and pretty much every guest we’ve had on the show.
Gary S:
The second point and I’m going to… I’ve written this second point out with each word has a period after it so I slow it down when I say it because Chris made this point in his sheet that he gave to us. He also made it in our conversation. And that point is this. Do not let your crucible define you. There’s a season to dwell on your setback or failure, for sure. But don’t let it become nuclear winter. Don’t let it go on forever and be bleak forever. As Chris counsels, find the fortitude to move on, and you will. Give yourself time to heal and mourn if you need it. But also be sure to find some reasons to hope because we can guarantee you’re going to need that hope to move on beyond your crucible.
Gary S:
And the third point would be this, your vision for a life of significance after a crucible could very well be grown out of your crucible itself. From the perspective, as Chris pointed out that his crucible gave him came this life of significance of NeuroHope. We’ve seen this happen over and over again in the guests that we’ve talked to. In Warwick’s own story, we’ve seen that happen. The same thing happened to Chris. He worked hard to come back from paralysis. And now he advocates to help others come back from paralysis and raise money to help them do so. That is the very definition of a life of significance.
Gary S:
And speaking of a life of significance listeners, thank you for spending time with us. And we would ask that you remember that we understand as you understand that your crucible experiences are difficult, they are painful, they are traumatic. They can as we say, and as Chris says, change the trajectory of your lives. But here is the fantastic news, they are not the end of your story. They were not the end of Chris Leeuw’s story. They’re not the end of Warwick Fairfax’s story. They’re not the end of your story. They can be if you learn the lessons of them, if you internalize the perspective of them, they can be not the end of your story, but the beginning of a new chapter in your story that leads to the most rewarding conclusion you can possibly imagine. And that is a life of significance.
