Life, Dom Brightmon freely admits, can be crappy sometimes. But each of us has the power to flip the switch to “happy” — the key is to view our crucible experiences as crystal experiences. Through books (like CRAPPY TO HAPPY), public speaking, and working with men and women going through setbacks and failures, Brightmon (a member of the John Maxwell-certified leadership team) is both a teacher and practitioner of the truth that when you advance others, you advance yourself.
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Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Dom B:
... until you go inside, you never know what's really going on until you get a closer, deeper look into what's really going on and I feel like that's really what we all need to keep in mind and life and heck even when it comes to crucible moments of, hey, at first, a gift may be wrapped up in adversity. It may be wrapped up in barbed wire with a pink rubber duck just taunting you saying, hey, you sure you want to open me buddy? I'm going to... and it's just taunting you. Taunt like macho man, Randy Savage, a professional wrestler like, "Hey buddy, I know you want to succeed, but you got to open up this barbed wire and it's going to hurt your hands first."
Gary S:
Well, those are definitely some words of wisdom from today's guest, Dom Brightmon, who speaks with us today about how to... yeah, I'm going to say it. I'm going to dare to say it. Dom discusses with us how to wrestle with our crucible experiences. Dom offers a unique and energetic and insightful perspective on how to move beyond our crucibles. He is a certified member of the John Maxwell leadership team and the author of two and a quarter books. His first book is Going North!: Tips & Techniques to Advance Yourself. His followup was Stay The Course: The Elite Performer's 7 Secret Keys to Sustainable Success, and just out this fall is a chapter he's written in a compilation book and if this isn't a crucible leadership title, I don't know what is. This is perfect for Beyond The Crucible. He has written a chapter for a book that just came out called Crappy to Happy: Sacred Stories of Transformational Joy.
Gary S:
I'm Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the podcast and I'm going to turn you loose here for Dom and Warwick to have a conversation, but before I do I want you to grab a pen or a pencil and some paper because Dom's got some wisdom that he drops in this episode. He's a motivational speaker who talks about these things across the country or at least across Zoom as we sort of face the pandemic that we're facing right now, but here's just one of the things that Dom says in the episode that you're going to want to write down. I'll give you a headstart and that is this, your adversity can be your advantage. Let's hear Dom Brightmon and Warwick unpack that for us right now.
Warwick F:
Well, thanks so much and Dom really appreciate you coming on the podcast and yeah. I'd love to hear more here in a bit about your book Going North and your podcast on that and just how you help coach folks. Before we get into that, tell us a bit about Dom Brightmon and kind of how you grew up. I understand you're in Baltimore, I'm a few miles down the road in Annapolis, Maryland. Same state, home of, I guess, the Maryland Terrapins. If you're not from Maryland, you probably have no idea what a terrapin is. I think it's some kind of snappy turtle from what I understand.
Warwick F:
Fear the Turtle, I don't know why you're meant to fear a turtle, but if you're in Maryland I guess you're meant to tell people, be afraid of the turtle. There we go, a little Maryland deal there. Tell us about yourself just growing up here and Baltimore area and yeah, your family and all that.
Dom B:
Sure thing. Well, first off, I like to say never hesitate to show gratitude. Thank you both team George Washington, Mr. Gary, and Warwick yourself for allowing me to be able to share this time with you. This is amazing. Outside of the intro, like my aim it to advance others to advance myself because I believe in coaching and empower others to share their stories, their motivational teaching and book casting because with motivational teaching as opposed to motivational speaking, you get to leave people with tangible tips and techniques they can walk out with, along with their motivation instead of being motivated to run through a brick wall and then they're wondering to themselves, okay, why am I charging for this brick wall here? Why am I doing this? And really just giving them something tangible to walk away with. That's a little bit about me, at least the short version of it.
Warwick F:
Yeah, no, that's great. Tell us about your family. You grew up in Baltimore. Who was like a young Dom? What were you like as a kid in elementary school and all?
Dom B:
Oh yeah. Young Dom, pretty much a quiet kid funny enough. Went to grade school. Probably most of my time, if it wasn't at home or playing with my friends, it was most likely in school or possibly church, because I think it was about two weeks old, got christened in the church and I was basically raised in the church from a whole life because my father, he was a spiritual man even though he still had short backs, like we all do. We're all human. No, one's perfect and all that good stuff.
Dom B:
He took me to Sunday school every morning. Basically from 8:30 to around good 2:30 PM every Sunday. I'd basically be in a church, Sunday school service and then of course as a black Baptist church so you know the pastor is going to say I'm going to close and then he's got another hour to go.
Gary S:
Yeah. It reminds me of a joke. What does it mean when a pastor looks at his watch? Nothing.
Warwick F:
Exactly. When you listen to your dad and say, I'm going to close, it's like "Dad, come on. I mean, for once, can you actually mean it?" I mean, you ever kid him about that? It's like, why do you say that?
Dom B:
Oh, well, that's the good thing. He was the preacher himself. Funny enough, he joked around when he was a kid because funny enough, my grandfather was a preacher and when it was time to pray around the family room, and they would do prayers, they would pray all night. Even as a kid, he'd be like, "Hey, can we pray one prayer please? Just one." And all the grownups just laughed at him because he was so right. I'm pretty sure God gets the point.
Warwick F:
As you were growing up with this kind of heritage, was it ever like... Well, Dom it's pretty clear what the Lord will have for you. We've had two generations of preachers. Really the question is what kind of preaching do you want to do? What kind of church, I mean, was ever that expectation that you'd absolutely go into the... I don't know about family business, but family heritage and all?
Dom B:
No. Well, let me clarify the generational preaching part. My grandfather was a preacher, but my father wasn't.
Warwick F:
Okay.
Dom B:
He actually spent time in the military. He actually served in World War II, funny enough, and the Korean War in the 82nd Airborne Division as a paratrooper.
Warwick F:
Oh wow.
Dom B:
He actually spent time in the service in terms of service for the country in addition to being a spiritual man. For me the preaching like, folks have been... probably like 95% of people probably think I'm a preacher right now and I don't even try to come across that way especially becasue like, "Hey, you look like that preacher on TV. Hey, make sure to share the tithe money and bless up some other people." I'm like, "What? I don't have a title. I just got slacks and a shirt."
Warwick F:
That's funny, but it's kind of probably in the blood. I understand that one of the things you did growing up is you spent time in the library like a summer internship which turned out to be, I don't know, somewhat of a key part of your journey. Talk about why the library? Because from what I understand, you weren't really into reading books. How did that all happen?
Dom B:
Oh, yeah, it was funny back then too, because back then I wasn't really into reading books because with grade school they gave you books that you don't want to read. They'll put you straight to sleep. Funny enough, remember back in 11th grade reading a book over the summer for a book project and after page two, I fell straight asleep and then I came too at 10:00 PM, a few hours later, like oh, whoops. That was the same year that it kind of brings back to the part of me being a quiet kid. My mom knew I was a quiet kid and she wanted me to get some work experience as quickly as possible, at least give myself an advantage.
Dom B:
Out of nowhere, like a spirit told her like, "Hey, why don't you to see if you can get Dom a job at the library?" She called the HR office. They had an opportunity available. I worked there as a summer youth intern in the summer of my 11th grade year, and those three months were interesting. Even got paid for, is a paid internship, and my work was good enough and they liked me enough to bring me back on as a part-time employee when I turned 16, when it was actually legal to do so. Just doing that, and I was surprised because I was still the quiet kid. I haven't really gotten to the part where I can be one of those ambiverts, the extroverted introvert, was able to be a social butterfly but still recharges when he's not around people.
Dom B:
Just that summer youth internship, being able to be liked well enough to be brought back because I was always the kid who would always do his work. Funny enough, like even my humor was developing at the time because my first time there, the supervisor's like, so do you come to the library a lot? And I was like, yeah, I do. I come here twice a year and everybody just burst out laughing. So yeah, reading wasn't my thing and libraries weren't my thing and I thought that was a lot. It's like I got two big projects a year. I come here to take the books out and check them back in. As the years gone by, I realize, "Oh, people come here every day. Every day." It's a community resource and one guy says he's a security guard. He's like, "I see people here more often than I see my wife."
Male:
Wow.
Dom B:
That's how much people still use local libraries these days and that really experience just being around those wonderful folks with diverse backgrounds helped me to realize, you know what? I can learn to deal with people with different generations, different nationalities. Like with a lot of our work that in particular, there's a little part where Storyville was for kids birth to five, where you get them ready for kindergarten, then they have a stream space and then for the teenagers, it was next door to high school.
Dom B:
One hundredths of 300 teens would come to the building after school, a good 2:30 PM in the middle of the day and then of course they get senior citizens, especially years ago when e-readers were getting extra big back then before smartphones got bigger. They just needed help using their tools they got for Christmas and heck even helping folks find employment. Libraries are more than books and I had to learn that after working there for a few years and going in, because I thought like, "Oh, just go to the card catalog, pick up a book." Like, no, it's actually bigger than that. It's a community resource because, especially nowadays where people don't all have reliable Wi-Fi and they go to parking lots of library, especially in the Baltimore County area-
Male:
Sure.
Dom B:
... to use the Wi-Fi during the whole pandemic things. That really lets me broadening my mind. It's kind of like the whole outside looking in thing until you go inside. You never know what's really going on until you get a closer, deeper look into what's really going on, and I feel like that's really what we all need to keep in mind in life and that even when it comes to crucible moments of, hey, at first a gift may be wrapped up in adversity. It may be wrapped up in barbed wire with a pink rubber duck just taunting you saying, "Hey, you sure you one open me buddy? I'm going to... and it's just taunting you. Taunt like macho man, Randy Savage, a professional wrestler like, "Hey buddy, I know you want to succeed, but you got to open up this barbed wire and it's going to hurt your hands first."
Dom B:
It's kind of like that thing, so yeah, it's been really just that going forward, just taking a deeper look and realizing that there's a gift in every adverse and there's a gift when you look deeper into certain situations and environments.
Warwick F:
Sounded like that library opened up a whole window to the world, which obviously vicariously you can have an idea of what's going on in the world in books, but just your community and different age groups, different people's challenges and you're helping them, your work ethic. You're finding... I'm getting things done. Dom's responsible. You finding a sense of humor. You don't always think of the library as being a key part of the journey, but it seemed like it was for you all the ways you just described, which is amazing.
Warwick F:
I know from... Understand that you've had a couple of crucibles, I think you almost had a car accident when you were 21. Now, a lot of people when they're young, they have car accidents. It's not that uncommon, but somehow for you, this was a bit of a transition point for you. Talk about why that was the transition point.
Dom B:
Yeah, the wonderful TP that we all need in life, a transition.
Warwick F:
The blessing of a transition point or... is the gift wrapped in barbed wire, that kind of thing. Oh please. Thank you so much.
Dom B:
Exactly, but yeah it was just... Yeah, it was one heck of a transitional point because really that day I was expecting just to go to class and then celebrate with some family, some friends later on in the day, not expecting to fricking wreck my car making a left turn no less and blocking up traffic for good. Man, my God, it was a good 90 minutes.
Warwick F:
Wow.
Dom B:
And having to call two, it was two different tow trucks actually. Because I called AAA first after the accident and then they were on their way and then while the traffic was being backed up, a police officer drove passed and he noticed something was going on. He called his guy since the AAA guy didn't show up and both tow trucks showed up at the same time and I was like, okay, I guess I got the insurance for this when you can call up your guy and then when the AAA guy came to tow my car, he was like, "Oh this truck isn't built for this kind of situation." Because my wheel was detached from one side of my car and then it was so darn plotted sit on the ground, that it was hard to drag it onto the truck with his tools that he had.
Dom B:
All of a sudden they call back the other tow truck and that just made it even longer and just really long story short, that really helped me to realize like, hey, I got to really shape up here because... I told my mom about it. She's still in the Maryland area and still lived with them at the time when this accident happened. She was the other person I called when the first people called after trying to get the car towed away. I was still a little shell shocked from the whole situation. I was like, God, darn I can't believe I fricking crashed my car like this. I'm not going to be able to drive it again. How the heck am I going to continue? Class like this, might take the bus or something.
Dom B:
This was the year where was the penultimate semester was the second to last semester before I got an IT degree at the school. I was so close to the finish line, and that's the other thing about the moment. It's like when you're so close to that goal, there's always going to be that one final test that really stands-
Warwick F:
Right.
Dom B:
... out to really make sure to test you to see if you really want to finish. If you want to be an uncommon finisher, you're going to have to find your uncommon strength that was lying deep within all of us to really push beyond that moment. Sometimes it even requires the help of another person. Like my mom says like, "Hey, you've come too far to quit. God's got big plans for you because you're still alive." Because I walked out no injuries from that situation, and she say, "Hey, you can do it."
Warwick F:
How did that change your perspective on life? I mean, what about that was a turning point?
Dom B:
What made it a turning point is the fact that one is the first time that something like that really happened to me on that large scale. Like the closest thing that could really take place for that moment really had pretty much an easy childhood for the most part with the parents and everything and that was really something that just came flying out of nowhere. What made it really a turning point was the fact that that was actually a month after my father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
Dom B:
That was what really happened, is the fact that it was just really another hit to the face, where it's like, okay, I'm seeing my hero decay. I can't even drive my car anymore. Like am I going to be able to get to class and finish this darn degree? And then heck even a couple of weeks after that being called in, went in a meeting with my boss at the time and telling me like, "Hey, you got to shape up here." Because she didn't know what was going on. I like to keep the personal and the professional life separate.
Dom B:
I never told anyone about it until of course the books came out, but that's all in the story and just realize that you know what? These three things realize, you know what? Something needs to change here. Something needs to change. Looking back at that meeting with the boss, yeah she yelled at me but at the same time, she also said that folks are going to be looking to me as a leader because she was having some new hires come in at the time since it was the new school year, and I looked up the leadership section of the library where I picked up a book by John Maxwell.
Dom B:
It helped me to really change my life and find personal and professional development to become a voracious reader again. It actually changed my perspective and realized, you know what? The car accident was a wake up call. My father falling, yeah that was a wake up call to basically make sure I take better care of him and always be grateful for him, and really a wake up call to take it up to the next level and realize that you can't really go through a life on a plain meadow, like an open land.
Dom B:
There's going to be some valley moments. There's going to be some mountains you have to climb. You have to go uphill. Sometimes you have to go back downhill and metaphorically unlearn some things like the love for reading. That was something I unlearned through grade school, but I relearned after having those moments come crashing down on me forcing me to do something different. Sometimes it just takes moments like that to help you realize you know what? Something needs to change me. Those people to remind us like, "Hey, your adversity can be your advantage."
Warwick F:
It almost seems like you had a renewed sense of purpose. You kind of rolling through life doing okay. Life wasn't terrible after that point, but somehow the combination of the accident, your dad's Alzheimer's, the conversation with your boss. Somehow did it feel that sense of, I need more of a purpose, more of a direction, or rather than just kind of flowing through life or with something like that?
Dom B:
Oh yeah. Because one of my mentors liked to say, don't go with the flow because dead fish go with the flow.
Gary S:
Wisdom.
Warwick F:
Right. Okay. Good to know. Somebody says Dom, just go with the flow. He says, no, no. No, no. I don't go with the flow.
Warwick F:
Don't do that.
Dom B:
Exactly. Because I don't want to be in the frying pan later.
Warwick F:
Exactly. It's amazing that you didn't have much of a love for reading, but then reading self-development John Maxwell, that kind of fueled, that next direction... I want to ask about that, but I'm curious, you said... well, obviously when your dad gets a diagnosis of Alzheimer's, it just feels like this slow death sentence when the person who they were begins to evaporate before your eyes, which is obviously crushing. Talk about why he was your hero, because not everybody says their dad or their mom for that matter is their hero. Why did you see your dad as your hero?
Dom B:
A powerful question. Powerful question. Yeah, like I said earlier, like this first time someone actually asked me that. I'm blessed to say that my dad was one of my heroes in life because the whole spiritual foundation, always taking me to church every Sunday school and helped me to get that biblical foundation, and the fact that... he actually had gray hair all of my life. Like I've never seen... I've seen him with number... gray beard, gray hair on his head. What really made him my hero is that he always made sure that when it came time to pick me up from school, he would always be on time and show up early.
Dom B:
One time when he fell asleep preparing dinner for the family later, he apologized to me because he showed up five minutes late one day, and I'm like, it didn't matter to me because I was still grateful to have a ride home from school and all that other good stuff. He felt bad that he was late for picking me up and even more importantly, even though he was in his early 80s, he was still volunteering at the church during the daytime to keep himself active because we would have a Maryland food... We would be sponsored by the Maryland Food Bank. That was one of our resources, it could be a soup kitchen at the church I attend.
Dom B:
We would get food from there. Since the church doesn't have too many young folks available during the daytime, the trustees, he was a trustee of the church. He would help lift those heavy boxes. And mind you, he was around a good 83, 85 still doing this. One time we're having a conversation on the way back home from class, and I was like, "Hey, so Dave, why are you still working as hard as you do when you could probably let somebody else do it?" You've worked all your life. You had two combat jumps in World War II. You served the country. You were a bus driver for 35 years and dealt with all that stress of dealing with all that, and you could just really rest and enjoy yourself because... like he retired, I think was like '95 and it was around a good... my goodness, think it was probably a good 10 plus years past retirement where a lot of his friends died a couple of days after they retired and he's lived a whole decade plus after it.
Dom B:
I'm like, why don't you enjoy yourself? And he's like, "Hey, I'm enjoying myself still because God's given me life and it would be a disservice to not use my time here, my life to help other people." This is a guy at 85 saying that and I'm like, wow. Just that really just... really made him my hero in life because he was there for me, always gave me some foundational principles and heck even the humor side where he sometimes will be so soft-spoken and quiet and everything enjoying himself and at sometimes when he gets around other buddies, he'll bust out a random joke and have the whole group of guys laughing and I got to see some of his other side too and really just seeing the fact that parts of my life were emulated from him consciously and subconsciously and I didn't even know what I wasn't aware of it at the time. That's the main reason I consider him one of my heroes.
Warwick F:
Boy, I mean, it's a privilege to have a parent like a dad like that as a man of tremendous faith. Great character. He's always there for you. Not quitting irrespective of age and lifting those boxes, involvement in church. I mean, that's a great heritage. I often think that the heritage we have is often just... if we are blessed to have a family, legacy of character and faith, and this listeners would know the guy that started the family newspaper business in Australia, 150 years before my great, great grandfather. He was an elder in his church, wonderful husband, wonderful father, employees loved him.
Warwick F:
There was that heritage of character that was spread through the generations, of a sense of service and humility. With that kind of legacy is something that is just a gift to the future generations. I should know this, but are you married with kids? I should know this, I guess. Somehow I don't know that, but I should ask you that. Do you have-
Dom B:
Oh no. No, not yet. I'm not rushing that. I'm 29.
Warwick F:
Okay. Good.
Dom B:
I'm in no rush for that right now.
Warwick F:
No worries. If and when that happens, you'll have an amazing legacy and story to tell about their grandfather and that kind of heritage. It'd be really cool. Go ahead.
Gary S:
I want to jump in here for the listeners and just sort of recap what we've just talked about, Warwick and Dom aside from living in Maryland, probably couldn't be more different in how they were brought up and they've lived their lives, but we've just heard both of them listener, talk about the importance of one of their forefathers. In Dom's case his dad, and Warwick's case his father as well as he talked here about his great, great grandfather and the importance and the power of the legacy that those individuals left in their lives and the lives that they're leading now.
Gary S:
I said at the top of the show in finishing Dom's bio, that his mantra is advance others to advance yourself. You know listener from previous episodes and following Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible, Warwick talks about living a life on purpose and leaving a legacy, living a life of significance, right? Advance others to advance yourself could be the mantra of both of these men whose experiences are vastly different. One of the many things that they have in common emotionally is that they had someone who poured life into them and that's gotten them now living lives of significance.
Gary S:
I just thought that's really important for listeners to grasp, but it's not so much how much you have in common with someone, it's the things you do have in common that can propel your life forward in meaningful ways.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I often think as people pour life into you, to use your expression, it enables you to pour life into others. Clearly your heritage, your dad has fueled what you do now. Talk a bit about how... stuff you grew up with, whether it's dad, church, things you learned in the library, how all that kind of fueled what you do with John Maxwell coaching and your book, Going North and podcast, Going North. I have a feeling there's a link between all those strands that fuels your mission and your purpose. Talk about that.
Dom B:
Ah, my pleasure indeed. It does all tie together like a patchwork quilt. Yes, indeed. The patches do a lot of work. I have to say that much because really I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. I guess in this case, sitting on the shoulders of giants, because they've like... really with the books like when you get a $25 package that someone probably took 25 plus years of their life to really put together, or maybe even shorter or longer and you get to borrow their experience and then take the meat out of it, throw out the bones and then put it to your life and apply it to your life and then apply a smaller version of it and then share with others, then you'll create a version of your own success that you want, because that's another thing too. Like it looks to me like success.
Dom B:
You can ask like five different people and you'll get five different answers. Like you read a certain book and you might get five different meanings or five different translations. Really everything that I do is because I've had great folks in my life. My father, my parents, my older brother like siblings, heck even mentors and coaches that have really inspired me to really take it to another level and really create something for myself like my podcast itself.
Dom B:
It's all about interviewing other authors to give them a platform to share their stories because we get to learn from one another from sharing our stories and we get to be inspired by hearing one another's stories especially in this era of a need of vulnerability where vulnerability has become a buzzword because people are tired of folks faking the funk like those who like to maybe put their curated feed out in social media and make people think that's their whole entire life when at the end of the day those pitches may not be a complete mirror of what's really going on.
Dom B:
People really want folks that are actually real down to earth and give it to you straight, no chaser, some may say and just compiling those stories into create concept and give people the motivation to run for a lifetime. Because it's another thing too. Like if one good person sees something good in you, you can run for a lifetime and just wanted to give that to the people because honestly, a lot of people may not know what they're doing, but if they hear someone else who is confident in not knowing what they're doing but still taking action, then that'll make it even better. Because I remember going to a Toastmasters meeting a few years ago, I think it was 2014, and met a bunch of friendly faces and they had a guest speaker at this meeting. His name was Daniel Ally. He gave this speech how to act like a leader.
Dom B:
The acronym for act was audacious, contagious and tenacious. That inspired me to really take it to another level because he also had a book called You Are the Boss! and he was only a couple of years older than me. He was 25 at the time. I was like, "Wait, this guy in his 20s is speaking around the freaking country and eventually the world and he's got a book and he's writing about the things I'm already reading about." I'm like, "I can do that too." And I became an author a couple of years later because someone else's action was the inspiration for me to get my butt moving even further and keep going.
Dom B:
The person listening right now, not just my stories, but the other stories in the past and heck even Warwick's powerful story and I'm sure Gary has got stories too that he hasn't even shared as much as he probably would like to yet, is the fact that we can all be inspired by another's stories no matter what level of success you have.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that is so true. We need, I don't want to say heroes, which we need heroes. It's what we need real authentic, vulnerable people that we can learn from. It's funny. I had somebody on the podcast recently, Chris Tuff who wrote a book, The Millennial Whisperer. It's sort of a catchy title. Certainly what he's saying is millennials, which is 20 somethings to early 30s, they crave authenticity, vulnerability. They don't want just fabricated plastic politician or business people, the perfect hair, the perfect smile, all that kind of thing. They can see through inauthentic people a mile away. There's just zero tolerance and people crave in our pre-packaged world we live in, they want the real, the vulnerable, the authentic.
Warwick F:
You're sharing stories of real people. You probably don't share people who have plastic stories, I'm guessing. You share the real stuff. People who are willing to go there, authentic and we need that because yeah, I mean, you were inspired by whether it's obviously dad being proud of John Maxwell team, listening to this guy who was a couple years older than you. Gosh, if he can do it, heck I can do that. You know? I mean, my gosh. It's like this is mission possible. I can do this thing, right? What is it you love to do in what you do? If somebody said, "Okay, well, Dom, what is your purpose in all this?"
Dom B:
Yeah, my purpose, I feel like would be to help others realize that success is tangible. Success is tangible because a lot of folks, especially folks in like the lower parts of Baltimore and folks who've had rough upbringings and heck, we've all gone through some rough stuff this year, I'm sure, with everything and just helping to realize that, hey, no matter what happens, you can still push beyond these moments and create some success for yourself. Like for myself so far, a couple of books and a podcast and getting out and sharing inspirations to the other folks and not being afraid to really talk to the folks who may have tons more followers and big followers than me on my show and just learning from them. Because that's another thing too, is to learn from other people as opposed to like seeing somebody who may have like tangible success or whatever getting jealous.
Dom B:
Instead of getting jealous, find out what they did to create that because I feel like that's something that gets a lot of people in the wrong ways. Like you know what? Instead of getting jealous someone, how do they get to that point? What did they do? And try to emulate them as opposed to getting mad and trying to complain about them, and then on your end, you may feel like, yeah, I'm telling the world how bad this person is. Like, yeah, they're selling you a bill of goods of nothing. At the end of the day, you're actually really helping them to get their message out there even more because haters make you greater, like a hater maybe somebody who may see somebody who may be doing something and they may not like it and then we actually check out the person they're spewing the hate about. You may think, hey, this person ain't that bad, I actually like what they have to say.
Dom B:
I'm just going to keep following them and seeing what they're doing, so really just helping folks to realize that success is tangible. Like if you want to publish a book and join what I like to call the business of immortality, creating a piece of yourself that'll be here long after you're gone, then that can happen. Even though times are rough, this is still one of the best times to be alive in because there's access to so many things to really help you create something that you may have been wanting to create for a long time.
Dom B:
Heck even one lady in a book club yesterday mentioned how she said, thank God for COVID. She's like, I'm sorry for the lives that have been lost and counting during this whole situation but my faith has never been stronger. I've never had this much time to actually get more work done, to be quiet with myself more often because before COVID a lot of people are running and gunning and they may have forgotten why they're running and gunning for. Like really just that sound to really be still and seeing that moment going beyond the crucible in a way and realize that, hey, this crucible moment can be a crystal moment.
Gary S:
Ooh. I like that.
Warwick F:
Wow.
Gary S:
I like that.
Warwick F:
That is cool. I mean, you've said a lot of powerful things there. I mean, you give people hope, you inspire people. It's funny. We talk about crucible moments. Some people say, what do you mean crucible moment, it's a crucible life. I've only ever known crucible, fire, brimstone, pain. It's like a drop of grace of that cool water in the furnace. That would be a dream, but right now my life is a cauldron in the furnace and that's sadly real for people, too many people and it is easy to get bitter and angry and hate.
Warwick F:
You have to ask yourself, how much does hate really serve you? Does it help you? Does it really serve you? Sometimes it's one of the things we talk about and it's funny, people in the business world don't talk a lot about forgiveness, but sometimes it's like forgiveness is different than acceptance. Something may have been done to you and it's wrong. It's unjustifiable. Sometimes it's pretty difficult to change in terms of the macro picture. We can't change a lot of the structural systemic things that unfortunately are in life and have been for, well, probably thousands of years.
Warwick F:
Forgiving doesn't mean accepting, but it's like, okay, I may not like it but I'm not going to let this pull me down. Because bitterness stops you achieving your dreams. It's like, okay. Just because you're not angry and forgive and not bitter, it doesn't mean you agree or accept. It's fun... Sometimes you think if I forgive, then I'm condoning. Forgiving and condoning are different, but does that make sense? Like living a life of hate and bitterness even if it's understandable or justifiable, how does that really help you? How does that help you advance? I mean, does that make sense?
Dom B:
Oh yeah. It makes perfect sense. Funny enough, I was talking in front of her show goes live in October, Rev. Misty Tyme. She actually has a book called The Forgiveness Solution. The things you said Warwick like, they aligned with what she was saying too and she actually does keynote presentation and things like that because she's been there a lot herself with a rough upbringing. Heck, even dealing with past the spousal situations and learning to forgive is different from condoning.
Dom B:
It's like, just because... You can forgive somebody, but that doesn't mean you have to condone the behavior. Like that's something totally different and that's something I feel like a lot of folks need to keep in mind, is like, hey, you can forgive the person because it's really for you so that way you can keep going and be lighter in life because a lot of folks are carrying weight. I'm not just talking about the COVID 15 to 35 from the COVID 19, ...folks just crashed on a bunch of jokes.
Warwick F:
And Netflix, right? And Netflix, yeah.
Dom B:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. That too. That's really just the power of truly forgiving. Like, hey, you can forgive the person but look at the behavior objectively, just separating the behavior from the person. Like, all right, the person can always change. We can always change. We're subconsciously changing whether you believe it or not and it could be a change for the better or for the worse, but the behavior, if we can bring that to their attention and they can nip that in the bud early, that's a whole different situation. I'll fully agree with that. Fully agree with that.
Warwick F:
Yeah. It's funny, I often say about forgiveness, is that, why should you forgive? Because you're worth it. Not forgiving, it puts you in prison. In a prison of bitterness and anger and it just... it's like a living in a prison with toxic chemicals. I mean, it erodes and destroys your soul. Why? You're worth a lot more. It's like they often could care less. Don't give them the satisfaction. If you want to use some tortured, twisted logic, it's like forgive because you're worth it.
Warwick F:
Talk a bit about... you mentioned some people, their lives are pretty difficult. How do you give people hope? You in some ways were blessed in terms of the parents you've had and the dad you had, but a lot of people aren't blessed with that. There are some people that have terrible upbringings, live in a terrible neighborhood. Their lives are terrible. How do you give people whose situation seems hopeless, how do you give them hope? How do you inspire those folks?
Dom B:
Yes. One of the first things I'd like to do is listen to people, give them some time because that's really what a lot of people need nowadays, is someone just to listen to them. It's like the classic time when you may greet somebody with the, how you doing, and you really don't want to know how they're doing. Just being courteous to people, but usually if I ask somebody that, I usually expect an answer usually. If that doesn't work, even sometimes adding in a little humor to if they're open to it because sometimes folks really need just a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine of life go down a lot easier.
Dom B:
Just really just humor, the power of listening, and just really a smile as well and heck even sharing someone a positive word and reminding people, it's like hey, just because someone on paper may have all these titles and accomplishments, that doesn't mean they don't take bio breaks. We all have to take bio breaks here just to keep a little clean air for the listeners.
Warwick F:
Yeah, no. It's so true.
Dom B:
Yeah. Just remind the folks like hey, like me too. Just because I got some victories that doesn't mean I'm still not sure, but I'm like, hey, I still struggled from day to day. I still have to remind myself that I can still get things done and I can still be confident enough to really speak and inspire people because like with the whole COVID thing, like even having anxiety attack, because... I got an email from my day job and it was because of a miscommunication error and I'm like, oh crap, hope they don't can me here because the whole side hustle side thing that dried up for a bit and it's like, I don't really have it to where it's matching or at least exceeding the day job costs and it's like crappy. If something stupid happens, and I don't have medical insurance then I might be screwed up, especially for some of the folks who may be relying on me too and just realizing that, hey, I still struggle too.
Dom B:
Like nobody is immune from struggle and adversity. No one's immune. If you think you're immune, then you basically haven't lived long enough.
Gary S:
And that's a great place to begin the process. I think I can hear in the background the captain may have turned the fasten seatbelt sign on and we're going to... We'll circle the airport a couple of times, but we got to land the plane pretty soon, but that's an excellent point to what I'm sure is the next question that Warwick has, and that is, as you're offering hope to people, one of the things that you've done is you've written books to help people draw some of that perspective out. I wanted you to know, Dom, because we're interviewing you today and you started out not loving books much, and then you loved them and then you became an author. I wanted you to know that I wore this. If you're watching on YouTube-
Dom B:
Yeah.
Gary S:
If you're watching on YouTube, I'm wearing an author T-shirt...
Dom B:
Yes.
Gary S:
... underneath my sport coat in honor of Dom, but that those books that you've written are things that when you can't speak to people, they can unpack the wisdom that you have and I wanted to give you a chance before we finish up the questioning to tell people how they can find you on the internet, how they can find your books, how they can learn more about Don Brightmon on the web.
Dom B:
Sure thing. Folks can head over to dombrightmon.com, dombrightmon.com. If you head up there-
Gary S:
That's B-R-I-G-H-T-M-O-N.com. We'll have them in the show notes too, but that's the address.
Dom B:
Oh yeah, that's right. He's right about that. Definitely the show notes. You got to show your notes in math class, you got to show your notes in podcasts apparently.
Warwick F:
That is... I wanted to briefly ask about... you have a thing called MITCH. M-I-T-C-H, five keys for elite performance but before you answer that, I just wanted to make a quick observation that as you're talking about dealing with people with really difficult circumstances, by just listening to them, giving them a little bit of hope, it's like a drop of grace. A little bit of hope helps you take one more step and then that one more step leads to another. The journey to maybe a life that's about a... it just begins with somebody having a listening ear and giving them a little hope.
Warwick F:
It doesn't take much to help you take one more baby step and that's what you do just in your life, in your books. I just wanted to just throw that observation in there, but talk a little bit about MITCH and that's an amazing acronym. What is MITCH, the five keys for elite performance?
Dom B:
Sure thing. Sure thing. I have to think of a Gary or Warwick acronym. I know. If listeners name MITCH, they're going to be happy about this, but MITCH, the five keys for elite performance. The M stands for mental awareness. Mental awareness, being aware of what's going on in your mind. The I stands for influence awareness, being aware of the things around you that influence you. Like this podcast right now, that's a good influence. Binge on Netflix for 10 hours after listening to a podcast, maybe not so good. It's a detox, but maybe not for 10 hours.
Dom B:
The T is for time awareness, being aware of your time. The reason why I put time awareness as opposed to time management is because one, it goes to the theme of awareness and two, you can't really manage time because we all have the same amount. We just have to decide which activities we put in those blocks of time and it's really where our attention goes. Then the C is for connection awareness, are you connecting with wonderful people that'll really help you to think better, to live better and become better.
Dom B:
Do you have your metaphorical Wi-Fi signal open to receive the abundance that awaits you if you meet wonderful people, and the H to put the cap on everything is habit awareness. Because the habits that we have on the daily will decide where our future and our destiny will end up, because if you're not getting enough sleep daily then it's going to show up in your work when you're short with people, especially since nowadays everyone's in the people business whether they realize it or not, and it's now more than ever where we need empathy.
Dom B:
And if you're well, or your cup of empathy is empty, then basically you have to go back to your habits to realize, okay, am I getting enough sleep? Am I actually giving myself enough time for myself? Am I actually doing something to take care of myself and just really putting all those things together to really help you to become a top elite performer and that's the major keys that helped me to really get out of the grief and some setbacks over these past couple of years when building a wonderful life that I've been blessed to live up to this point.
Gary S:
That makes me wish my name was MITCH, to be honest.
Warwick F:
In the days we're living in, as we close here, in COVID there's this as much division in the US and probably the world as there's ever been. A lot of anger, grief. I mean, we live in just such challenging days. What's sort of a word of hope for people when they feel like things are so difficult, things are so bleak. What hope would you sort of give it like a thought, just for people that are feeling there's not much hope around?
Dom B:
Sure thing. You are somebody's gift whether you know it or not, because there was a Facebook post from an independent musician on YouTube where he was sharing a post that was asking folks how long has it been since your last suicide attempt? And he said five years, and then a few other folks were listing their years. Some said four, some said three, some said two and one of them, I actually listened to some of his music and I was a fan of it and I'm like, hey, keep pushing forward and keep being better and realize that, hey, you're someone's gift. Like I listen to your album at least once every other month. I listen to it every year man, like keep pushing us. I love your work.
Dom B:
I didn't even know that they were going through that. You are someone's gift. Make sure that you remember you were always someone's gift. You may not know it now, you may not think it now. It's hard to see it where you are now, but keep pushing and you'll eventually see that are you are someone else's gift because taking your life will be taking that gift away from someone else and it'll be taking away the future that you can create not only for yourself, but for those you love.
Gary S:
Wow. As I say, increasingly on this podcast, because we get such good guests with such great insights. I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last best word has been spoken, and Dom has spoken it. Let me wrap up with three takeaways I think that come from this a really, really insightful conversation with Don Brightmon. One, look for the gifts in adversity. There may be, as Dom explained it, some barbed wire on the package that that gift arrives in, but you have to unwrap it. You may get cut. It may draw a little blood physically and emotionally, but you can get through it. You can not just survive, but you can thrive.
Gary S:
Adversity is not a period in your life story, it's a comma and life can be as Dom's latest book contribution puts it, it can go from crappy to happy. That's point one. Point two, look to others to help you move beyond your crucibles, family, friends, associates at work, they will encourage you. They'll educate you. They'll help you heal from the hits to the face as Dom put it earlier in this episode. Moving beyond a crucible is not an individual sport like tennis, it's a team sport like football. Like football, you're going to get knocked about a bit, but you'll also score touchdowns because you have a team behind you that's all kind of driving in the same direction toward those goalposts.
Gary S:
Your crucible moment can be a crystal moment, and I'll stop here and say copyright 2020 Dom Brightmon. Just so no one thinks I'm trying to take credit for his fantastic intellectual property, and then point three as a takeaway from this episode listener. Advance others to advance yourself. That's Dom's mantra. The way to fill up your legacy glass is to pour into the lives of others.
Gary S:
Thank you for spending time with us here on Beyond the Crucible and this discussion we've had with Don Brightmon. Warwick and I have a favor to ask you. If you've enjoyed this conversation, if you've enjoyed previous conversation, we'd ask that you would click subscribe on the podcast app in which you're listening to us right now. That ensures that you'll never miss an episode and we have, I can tell you, because we've recorded some of them already. We have some interviews coming up that are just as exciting and exciting in different ways even, than this one has been with Dom. We've got good content on the line, as they say. Click subscribe and you'll never miss an episode.
Gary S:
Until the next time we are together here on Beyond the Crucible, remember that your crucible experiences are painful. They can be in Dom's language, crappy, but happy is just over the wall. You can move from that to happiness. If you learn the lessons of your crucible, if you dig in and do the hard work, if you work through what that barbed wire has done to you as you had that crucible moment, those crucible experiences can be not by far not the end of your story, not a period to your sentence, but a comma because what can happen is the next chapter in your story once you learn those lessons and move on.
Gary S:
The next chapter in your story can be the most rewarding chapter of your life because in the end that chapter, the last page of that, is a life of significance.
Moving beyond your crucible is hard work, even harder when the circumstances that knocked you off your feet seem to linger forever.Β How do you get going again when it feels like your crucible is a bottomless pit, a black hole? Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE hostΒ WarwickΒ Fairfax lays down a roadmap for getting back on track toward a life of significance. “It’s not an easy cycle to break when you’re at the bottom of your crucible,” he says. But it can be done … if you embrace the power of one small step.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible, I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership. Even when life can feel overwhelming and there's no hope, just take that one small step. It could be apply for that next position, even when you think it's hopeless, have that one more networking call. In J.K. Rowling's case, send out one more manuscript to one more publisher, whatever the positive step is, no matter how small each day, try to take one small step. It could be journaling about the kind of position you would like to get, but it's... The importance of taking one small step at a time each day each week, that is probably the foundation of getting out of the bottomless pit, even when that small step can seem like, well, even if it happens, so what?
Gary S:
Raise your hand if you've ever felt like you're in that position, like the crucible you're in has no bottom. It has no end, that no matter what you try to do next, this has been going on so long, that to try to do anything more to overcome it to move beyond it, so what? Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, the co host of the show and the communication's director for Crucible Leadership. And on today's episode, Warwick, answers the so what question. Beyond that, he offers a roadmap for how all of us can proceed through a bottomless crucible as he calls it. Through what we've dubbed crucible fatigue, how do you get from point A to point B, when point A and half seems like it's gone on forever? You'll find that out on today's episode. And as Warwick says, it all begins with one step.
Warwick F:
Sometimes, we go through this crucible and it feels like it's a bottomless pit, it feels like the pit has no end, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. You can't even see a tunnel, you just see this whole sense of darkness. And at the moment, everybody really has had a tough 2020 or pretty much everybody. We've had the whole pandemic which seem to go on forever. Yes, we've heard recently that maybe there's a vaccine, that could take quite a while to get out and be widespread, the economy is uncertain, we've had a very tough election and that's divided many people, some happy, some are not happy. Our whole world feels in a lot of turmoil, a lot of division along a lot of lines, including racism and issues of systemic racism. It's been a very tough year for a lot, if not most people.
Warwick F:
So, in a sense you could say many of us are going through a collective crucible, but crucibles can also be very personal, whether it's 2020 or not, you might have got fired from your job or passed over for a promotion, maybe you have a loved one that's died recently or health challenge in the family. So whether it be because of large outside causes or something very personal, there is some days, some months, some years even in which we feel like we don't have hope. It just seems like there is no way out of the bottom, we just feel like this crucible is like a black hole, it's going to go on forever. And as we all know, once you get into a black hole, folks with physics majors know that once you get into a black hole, not even light can escape. So we feel like we're in this black hole of a crucible and there is no end.
Gary S:
If we've heard it once in 2020, we've heard it dozens, if not more than that times. People saying, "I'm just tired of this. I'm tired of filling the blank of the pandemic and the concern about health and the pandemic and the concern about the health of the economy and the restrictions." My wife and I were talking to my stepson last night and he was saying he had plans this summer to see his friends and do things and he hasn't been able to do that. And you don't realize that sometimes as you're dealing with your own fatigue, that everybody around you probably has a little bit of that fatigue too. And on any given day and any given year, that can be real. Those crucibles to use your excellent phrase can feel bottomless. But right now, it seems like a great percentage of us, a great concentration of us are feeling that. And in fact, just this morning, I was poking around on LinkedIn and there's a story, a new story on LinkedIn, about firms grappling with what they're calling pandemic burnout.
Gary S:
So we're calling this crucible fatigue, they're referring at LinkedIn to pandemic burnout. And I'm not going to read the whole story. But here's some interesting... As we go through this episode, I know the things that you're going to talk about Warwick, and they touch on some of these very things. As the pandemic stretches on through the fall, bosses say many of their remote employees are reporting depression and uncertainty over what's next. And many firms are taking actions to head off a surge of employee distress. That sounds like fatigue, doesn't it? But just a couple of the tips that they offer in this story on LinkedIn. One, and we'll talk about it in more detail in some different words, but as we move through this episode, encouraging staff to take time off or take self care days. That's one of the things that LinkedIn is talking about in terms of pandemic burnout, we'll talk about it in this episode about crucible fatigue. Also, fostering dialogue to share genuine emotions. That's one of the tips that you have that we'll unpack a little bit later on.
Gary S:
And then offering training or supervising to help people with expressing empathy to others. Again, that's one of the things we'll talk about it, you'll talk about it in a bit of a different way, but you will talk about it before our time is up today. So, I thought that was very interesting as we picked this idea out, we're not the only ones who are doing it, because here's LinkedIn talking about it just this morning.
Warwick F:
Yeah, it's so true. Yeah, for so many of us, we're just locked at home and I have three adult kids in their 20s and one is working remotely and seems to be okay and other my daughter came back from Australia where she was for a couple years. And she's doing a grad course and she should be in Chicago, where the grad course is, but it's all remote and she's an outgoing person, so it's just tough to be locked at home. And younger son had to do graduation from college I guess remotely, he wasn't able to go to it live. So, our lives are just so different. People are getting isolated, I'm sure. Depression and other issues more prevalent now, since people are locked at home. So, life is tough enough, but we've got this overlay. So it's a tough time for many people.
Gary S:
I always like to pull quotes, especially on these episodes when it's just the two of us. And you know, the listeners don't know that I'm a huge Green Bay Packers fan. But here's something that Vince Lombardi, the legendary coach of the Green Bay Packers said about fatigue, which is I think, a good jumping off point to begin some more detailed discussion of this subject of fatigue over crucibles. Vince Lombardi said, "Fatigue makes cowards of us all." We talked about this idea Warwick that I don't feel I have enough energy to get on, I just want to stay in bed and pull the covers over my head. And Vince was a little plain spoken, but the idea there really is, it can make us feel like we just want to give up, it can make us feel like we don't have what it takes to press through.
Warwick F:
We're kind of... Right. We often use this image in Crucible Leadership, we can feel like we're hiding under the covers and just not want to get up, just this sense of I'm done. I've had it, I'm checking out of life, just going to go through the next 20, 30, 40 years and that's it. All of us can have times in which we feel like that's it. When you're in the bottom of a crucible, it goes on forever. It is tough to get out of that thinking back to the black hole image, it's tough to get out of that thinking of, "I'm done, I'm worn out, I'm tired, I've had it." That's not an easy cycle to break when you're at the bottom of the crucible.
Gary S:
And listeners who've spent any time at all with us, know that you Warwick, are a great student of history, that you draw many of your leadership insights, practical tips from some of the greatest leaders in history. And history tells us that what we're talking about today, there are examples even in recent history, there are examples of folks who have gone through some really hard, bottomless feeling crucibles. Crucible fatigue and yet, as we like to say on Beyond the Crucible, your crucibles aren't the end of your story, they can be the beginning. In the cases that you've written about in the past, there are great examples of folks who indeed have done that. Who comes to mind as you think that over?
Warwick F:
Yeah, it is funny. We do talk a lot about folks in history be it Washington, Lincoln, Churchill, Roosevelt. But one that came to mind as we were thinking about this is somebody I wrote about a little while ago. Maybe a year ago, J.K. Rowling. Whose first name is Joanne, but publisher decided to go with J.K, since she wrote the best selling books, Harry Potter that was targeted at teenage boys, what have you and they thought J.K would be better for that audience. I don't think boys would really have cared, but publishers go figure.
Gary S:
It's the marketing and PR guys. It is the PR guys.
Warwick F:
Exactly. So, everybody's heard of J.K. Rowling and they've heard of her incredible success. She's sold more than 450 million copies of a seven book series, her eight films that she's done on Harry Potter, she's done other ones, but just on Harry Potter, they grossed over $7 billion worldwide with a B. She's had enormous success. So when you think of people who are that successful, it's hard to think that maybe they went through crucibles, maybe they went through a time in which there seemed to be no hope. And so, we forget about that, but J.K. Rowling, Joanne Rowling, she had that experience. She around 1992, was about two years after she came up with the whole idea of Harry Potter. And it was an unbelievably tough year, it was like her 2020, if you will, maybe multiplied by five or something. Her mother had just died after battling multiple sclerosis since Joanne was a teenager, she had had a difficult divorce from the first husband and she had a young daughter to support.
Warwick F:
So here she was in Edinburgh, Scotland, living in poverty on welfare, she had a young daughter to support by her own admission, she was diagnosed with depression, on the verge of suicide. Again, this is her perspective, life couldn't have been more difficult. What hope is there for a single mother in Edinburgh, in that situation? And apparently she had a difficult relationship with her dad. So, a lot of these support mechanisms, they weren't there, at least not from family.
Gary S:
And those are a lot of crucibles that can stack up pretty quickly.
Warwick F:
Yeah. She said that she was as poor as possible to be in modern Britain, she felt that she had failed on an epic scale. But it's interesting, she says that rock bottom became the foundation on which she rebuilt her life. And what's interesting is, she said a number of things, since about this about just her attitude. She said, failure was a stripping away of the nonessential, she said she was set free because her greatest fear had been realized and she's still alive and she had a daughter that she adored. Failure taught her things about herself that she couldn't have learned any other way. She said that later, but at the time, picture J.K Rowling. So, here she is, Joanne Rowling, she's in Edinburgh, she tended to write in the cafes in the town. And so what she would do is she'd have a stroller with her young daughter in it and as a lot of young mothers and young parents will know, she'd be wheeling her around the stroller, until eventually her daughter would fall asleep, which can take a while.
Warwick F:
The daughter would fall asleep, she'd head into the cafe and then start writing. Not on a typewriter, longhand on a pad of paper, and she's probably thinking, "Okay, how many pages can I get done before my daughter wakes up? Two, three, a chapter?" Okay, off we go, let's have another few walks around the block and then let's go to another cafe and maybe the same one. So that's what she did. Time after time until that book was finished. Then she went to a number of publishers, she went to 12 publishers, they all said no. The 13th said yes.
Gary S:
And let's back up so our listeners catch this moment. The book she's talking about, that she gave to 12 publishers, or a dozen publishers, was it some book you've never heard of? This was Harry Potter. This was... When people talk about the most successful books of all time, there's the Bible and then I think some of the Harry Potter books have fallen under that in terms of sales. So, this was something that was good that she poured herself into and yet it was rejected 12 times.
Warwick F:
Right, because nobody had ever heard of Joanne Rowling at the time. So who was she? And so most people will turn down books even seems good ones. But you could tell yourself, "Well, that's Joanne Rowling," but think she's a single mother, bad divorce, mother died, bad relationship with her dad and here she is in Edinburgh on welfare. There's not a whole lot of hope to be gained there. But somehow she was able to press on, somehow she didn't give up hope and just believed in the dream. She just believed in this book and she wouldn't give up. And we'll talk later about how that relates to some of the tips. But it's pretty of an amazing story.
Gary S:
It is. And let's walk listeners through exactly what that's like. If you're feeling right now listener like you're in a bottomless crucible, you're having crucible fatigue, be it the pandemic, the economy, personal things. Let's just unpack what J.K Rowling went through. Sends the manuscript off once, rejected, twice, rejected. Three times, rejected, four times, rejected, five times, rejected, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 times it was rejected. She could have given up at any one of those times. How many times does it take us... And this is a rhetorical question for all of us.
Gary S:
How many times does it take us to give up on a dream, on something three times, four times? What if J.K Rowling at the third time, the seventh time, the 10th time had given up? The world would have been deprived of what culturally is considered one of the great children's novel series from that movie series of all time. She pushed through. And because she pushed through, I would say in the language of crucible leadership, she's living a life of significance.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Very true. She's living an incredible life and has a whole volunteer organization to support people, I think others that have gone through some of the experiences that she's had. So, yeah. She's had an incredible impact on the world. No question.
Gary S:
It was interesting Warwick, when you mentioned to me on the show here, when you mentioned the amount of money the books have sold. Because you actually use the phrase billion with a B. And one of the skills of a good co host is knowing how to segue and pick moments to segue. So, where the other time I've said a few times billion with a B, is your own personal story, your own personal crucible, Warwick, of your takeover of the family media company in the late 80s, the failure of that company slips family control after 150 years and at a loss of $2.25 billion. Big crucible. You've talked about that many times on the show, but one of the things that you haven't really talked about that I'd like you to share with listeners a little bit is, it took a while because it was the late 80s, early 90s when that fell through and it took some time. It took a few years for you to fight through the fatigue of what that crucible caused in your life. Is that true?
Warwick F:
It is. Yeah, as you mentioned, like most listeners would know I've been growing up in this large family media business in Australia, newspapers, TV stations, radio magazines, launch this $2.25 billion takeover to bring it back to the ideals of the founder, see the company is being well run. That all fell through almost from the beginning, we had an unsustainable level of debt. I felt like I've been put on this earth to spend my whole life in this media company and can do such a lot of good in the community. I thought this was the vision, maybe it wasn't my vision, but I felt like it was a good vision nonetheless. And then after 150 years and certainly in part due to me, the company goes or passes from family control, goes bankrupt and passes on to other people in late 1990. So here we are in the 1990s and I was not clinically depressed, but I was in a bad way. It's like, "Well, what is my purpose? Now, what do I do?" I wasn't poverty stricken like Joanne Rowling, I didn't have the same level of wealth, but certainly enough to be okay.
Warwick F:
But just emotionally and spiritually, I felt like I'd let my family down, God down in a sense that the company was founded by a person of faith and faith is important to me. I felt like I let my parents down. It was just a tough tough thing. And so, I've always been analytical. So I thought maybe I could get a job doing strategic analysis, marketing analysis, anything that's analytical. And I'd send out resumes to different places in first half of the 1990s and who wants to employ an out of work media mogul? Nobody. I could say, "Oh, I'm humble." And all went, "Oh, sure. Yeah, right." And so I was unemployable. It was just... It's hard to have a hope when you just think of all these rejections which I could understand. So eventually, sometimes desperation makes you take steps that you probably wouldn't otherwise. In Maryland, where we lived there was a temp agency that looks for temporary employment for accountants and financial analysts.
Warwick F:
I'm not an accountant, but I have done financial analysis after I went to Oxford and before I went to Harvard Business School, I worked in a bank on Wall Street and so I did financial analysis. And yeah, as an aside, I have a Harvard MBA, but that certainly didn't help me get a job at that point, again, former medium mogul. It's just didn't do anything for me. Not their fault, but the situation. So I went to this temp agency and said, "Well, I could do financial analysis." They said, "Well, we have this little program that will test your proficiency at Microsoft Excel." Well, I'd used that a lot in business school and in the bank, so I guess at the time-
Gary S:
You were pretty good.
Warwick F:
I'm talking about 1996, that was pretty good. They said, "Well, you got a really good score on Excel." Okay, great. So they found me a job at a sports company that had its US headquarters in Maryland, and needed some help with budgeting. So, I did that over a few months and I must have done a good enough job. They said, "Well, your employer said you did a great job helping out with budgeting analysis and all." Then they said, "Well, there is a temporary to permanent position at a local company in Annapolis, where I live." They said a large aviation services company. So I started off there doing financial analysis and after a few months, they offered me a full time job. Now, this is 1996 and at the time what they were offering me was a fair wage for the work that was being done, but I felt like I was probably the lowest paid, Harvard Business School graduate in history at the time. But yet, I was overjoyed. I had a job.
Warwick F:
It was something that I could do, certainly it wasn't my dream job, a Harvard MBA doing entry level financial analysis for an aviation services company. Nothing wrong with the industry, but it was a first step. And a little bit a little bit, I got more into business analysis, strategic analysis. From there some listeners will know, I took an executive coach who does mid career assessments, gave me an assessment as well. You have a great profile for executive coaching, got into that, got onto two nonprofit boards, including my church board. As I started doing that, people said, "Boy, you have a great perspective on leadership." I'm thinking, "What do you mean? I'm just asking questions." So, "Oh, do I have actually something to offer?"
Warwick F:
Because at the time, I would have been like, "I couldn't lead my way out of a paper bag. Me, lead? Look, what I did. Come on, I have nothing to offer." But a little bit by a little bit and then, the idea of the book came through a talk I gave in church, somehow what I said helped people and then Crucible Leadership. But where I am now, it's a tremendous place with a book that's going to be published next year, this podcast Beyond the Crucible, active on social media, have a whole website Crucible Leadership. But if you think back to all those years ago, when I'm at this temp agency and it's like, "Oh, you're good at Excel, maybe we can find something temporary for you." It seemed like a baby step, a micro baby step, 100th of a baby step. It didn't seem particularly a glorious step, but it was a step as we'll talk about later, that led to great things. But I had no idea at the time.
Gary S:
And before you went into that temp agency and had that conversation and found the temporary job, what was it like emotionally? We've talked about it many times that listeners probably have not had... Certainly have not had the same details of their crucibles as you have, or as I have. But the emotions are the same. And I assume at some point, in the midst of post takeover and going in and getting that temporary job, you probably experienced, did you not? Crucible fatigue.
Warwick F:
Yeah. It was hard to have a whole lot of energy to do anything super productive. Fortunately, I had young kids at the time and my wife is very loving and supportive, which was huge. I'm so blessed. But yeah, it was just you're trying to trot out resumes. This was just before the dawn of the internet in the early 90s, I felt like I couldn't just Google stuff at the time. I would send out resumes and nothing would happen. How do you get the energy and the get up and go to send out a resume when the chances of success are pretty much zero? Objectively speaking out of work, media mogul, Harvard MBA, Oxford, it's like there is no way. I was unemployable.
Warwick F:
So, there was zero reason for even a speck or a grain of hope objectively. And I knew that. And so you just keep... Fortunately, and this is a blessing. We weren't on the streets. We had not billions but had enough that we will be okay at least for a while. But yeah, it was hard to get motivation to do a whole lot professionally. Having young kids does distract you in a good way. But to feel like, "Oh, let's trot out another resume." Why? What's the point? It will fail. Which they did. So, yeah. It's just saps you of energy, fatigue, you feel bad about yourself and then you start thinking, "What an idiot the takeover? Why did I do it? So dumb, so stupid." And so the fatigue and not clinical depression, but depression can lead to self-incrimination like, "I'm in this spot, certainly, in significant part because of my own stupidity. So then the cycle of, "I can't get a job, I'm an idiot. I can't get a job, I'm an idiot." Yeah. It's worn out. It's hard to pick yourself up every day. It's tough.
Gary S:
And the good news for listeners who may find yourselves in the same place right now, your crucible has been going on for longer than you expected it would, certainly longer than you hoped it would. And maybe you're feeling tired, maybe you're feeling fatigued, maybe you're feeling what Warwick just described. What's the chance of success of this resume or of this effort to start my business up the way that I want to do it? What effort is going to pay off for me to continue to pursue my vision? Maybe I should just stop to use the J.K. Rowling example, maybe I should just stop at the 11th submission of the manuscript. But the good news is, as Warwick described for himself, as J.K. Rowling is testament to, there are ways to fight that fatigue, there are ways to light the engine to help you move past that fatigue, to dissipate that fatigue and move your life toward a life of significance.
Gary S:
And I know Warwick, you have a blog on this subject and you unpack several helpful tips. It really is the way I described it, as I'm thinking about it. It's a roadmap, if you will, of how to go from I want to lie in bed with the covers over my head to I'm chugging along pretty good toward a life of significance. Let's walk the listeners through that roadmap.
Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely. The first one is probably the most important. It's take one small step, even when life can feel overwhelming and there's no hope, just take that one small step. It could be apply for that next position, even when you think it's hopeless. Have that one more networking call. In J.K. Rowling's case, send out one more manuscript to one more publisher, whatever the positive step is, no matter how small each day, try to take one small step. It could be journaling about the kind of position you would like to get, but it's the importance of taking one small step at a time each day each week, that is probably the foundation of getting out of a bottomless pit. Even when that small step can seem like, well, even if it happens, so what? Okay, so I go to this temp agency and they think I'm good at Excel. Okay, that seems not super exciting, but okay. But that's the first thing, is take one small step, because those small steps can seem like a flywheel.
Gary S:
Yeah. And I'll give you an example of a small step I took. We haven't even talked about this beforehand. But it just came to mind when I was on my second journalism job. And I've mentioned on this show, I think once before that I was a reporter in a newspaper and I thought I was the star reporter, I got a lot of choice assignments and I began to believe my hype a little bit too much, I didn't try as hard as I could have tried. And the ultimate result of that was I got laid off. And that was in the 90s and it was not the easiest thing to do. Newspapers were still more robust than they are now, but I'm trying to think, "What am I going to do?" And again, before the internet, how do you find about jobs, how do you do this?
Gary S:
And I remember after a couple of weeks of just wanting to lay in bed and go sit by the pool and not do really much of anything, I decided my one step was going to be this. I was going to dress every morning like I was going to work and I was going to treat finding a job like having a job. That was my job, it was to find a job. So I got up, shaved, got dressed in my shirt and tie and coat and sat and worked trying to find a job. And just that one small step changed my perspective. Because my perspective was a guy who was unshaven for four days lying on his bed, feeling sorry for himself to a guy that at least looked like, felt like he was someone who was employable, someone who had a future and that one small step to your point, then led to another small step, another small step and I came up out of the bottomless pit. So, after the small step, after step one which is take one small step, what comes after that?
Warwick F:
Yeah. And that's a profound example just sort of an attitude change of just getting dressed in your work clothes so to speak. An attitude as well as an action can be so profound. So, I think one of the things that happens is there's a link between taking a small step and the vision, you may not know what your whole vision is, but as you begin to take some small steps and get some affirmation, you begin to see, "Well, maybe there's something that I can do." And the vision begins to grow. My case, when I got into financial analysis, I'm actually pretty good analytically. This is something that I can do. Huh. So, I'm getting some positive reinforcement, which encourages me. I get into executive coaching and I was told I had a leadership voice, just by the questions I asked. Gosh, for me, that's made so many bad mistakes, leadership mistakes, maybe there's something I can do.
Warwick F:
And I didn't think at the time and this is the important point, whether it was when I started coaching, or even further back at the temp agency, "Oh, I'm going to found Crucible Leadership, I'm going to have a book, I'm going to have a podcast." I wasn't thinking that, I was just thinking of something to reclaim at least a grain of my self esteem, something positive I could do. But the vision tends to grow. It's a bit like a flywheel. I think of Walt Disney, who I've talked about earlier, he just started off wanting to do animated cartoons with a story that was a bit more interesting than the typical ones in the 20's, early 30s. But from Mickey Mouse, ended up going to Snow White, going to Disneyland, Disney World and on. The genesis of the dream is all about, "Surely can't we do animated cartoons a bit better?" That was it.
Warwick F:
It wasn't this big, long term plan. I'm sure J.K. Rowling didn't think, "You know what? I really see a billion plus grossing movie series." This is what's going to happen. She is just like, "Look, I've got this story in my mind..." In her mind she had outlined the whole series of books. But she just wanted to get it published. If she had got enough income to support her daughter and have some modest living, she probably would have been happy. So there wasn't some big vision, but as you take one small step at a time and you get one small win at a time, back to your example, by dressing professionally made you think, "Okay, my attitude today is better than it was yesterday."
Gary S:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
And you could say, "Well, that's not a win," because you didn't get a job, you didn't even get an interview yet. But that attitude change in itself, I'm sure if you viewed at the time, was a win, even be it a small win.
Gary S:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
Does that makes sense?
Gary S:
I couldn't envision The big Lebowski that I was lying. And it's funny it was before The Big Lebowski actually that I did this. But I couldn't imagine that guy that was sitting in a bathrobe and an unshaven face. I couldn't imagine him having a job. And I could imagine the guy in the mirror, sitting in front of his word processor, sending out resumes, clean shaven and tie on, I could imagine that guy getting a job. And you're right, that was a switch that flipped in my head that said, "Okay, I can take the next step."
Warwick F:
So, that was a key small win. And as we're doing this and it's easy to forget, we really need to celebrate each small step. Whether it's of course it's hard to go out these days to dinner, but back before, whether it's that or even just an attitude of celebration. I remember when that job at the aviation services company went from temp to permanent, it wasn't high paying, but I was overjoyed. I'm a Harvard MBA, Oxford graduate, why would I get excited about a very low paying, low level, entry level job? Because after what I've been through, it felt like a big step at the time. But it was a win, I was just over the moon, I was so happy. So don't take those small steps for granted, celebrate it because that gives you energy for the next small step. Small step by small step, it builds your vision, celebrate each small step and that will produce a flywheel of enthusiasm that will make leaping out of bed actually possible, rather than dragging yourself out.
Gary S:
And I love that at this point we're through three points, but truly, they're not really tips, they're connected points. They're connected steps along a map. This is a roadmap to getting through crucible fatigue. Take one small step, don't forget your vision, dial into your vision as you're taking that step after that step before you take the next step and then celebrate each small step as you go along. That's point three that you just made or step three that you just made.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And I think, it's funny it's hard to learn or move or grow without moving. Movement is the key, which is why we started off with take one small step. But as you're moving, you're going to learn some things about yourself. You're going to learn about what you're good at, what you enjoy doing. You're going to learn like in my case, I'm analytical, I'm strategic. When I started coaching, I realized I love listening to people and helping other people. I found I had a leadership voice, that I had no idea that I had. When that led to me getting on two nonprofit boards, I'm a reserved person by nature, certainly at the time, somewhat shy, because I passionately believed in the missions of those two boards. I found I had a leadership voice, I was able to politely, but strongly express my opinion, which is not the kind of person that I thought of myself.
Warwick F:
I'm not a bomb thrower, I'd rather listen to other people than offer my opinion. So, it's like, "Wow, really, who knew I actually was able to express strong opinion constructively." So, the point here is as you go through these small steps, baby steps, as you're learning more about your vision, as you celebrate it, learn what you don't enjoy, but learn what you do enjoy and learn about yourself. About who you are, pay attention, reflect as you're moving, because there's a lot to learn through each of these steps. Why did that work? Why did I enjoy it? Talk about it to your wife or husband, friends, partner, just learn as you're going through these small steps.
Gary S:
And one of the things I love about learn through your crucible coming after, celebrate your each small step is that, as you learn, you can celebrate the things that you learn. Right?
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Gary S:
They're up inside themselves, they can be self-contained. You celebrate the small step, you learn through your crucible, that's a small step. But then you can celebrate the things that you learn. What do you like? What do you not like? What are you good at? Maybe have you fooled yourself into thinking you're better at it? What brings your heart alive? Those are things that then you can celebrate as you learn more and more about yourself. And each one of these points that Warwick is talking about, is fuel that can be added to the engine of your life to help you move beyond that fatigue that you're feeling in what feels like a bottomless crucible. All right, on to step five.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And so as you're making these small steps, your vision is growing, you're celebrating these steps, you're learning about yourself. One of the most important things is to cultivate an attitude of hope. There are optimists and pessimists in this world. And I get it, but a pessimistic attitude to life, you have to ask yourself, how does that serve me? How does it saying it will never work, I'm going to fail, there is no hope. I'm almost reminded of Winnie the Pooh, I think Eeyore the donkey, just came to mind. He's like, "Oh, it's hopeless, oh, it's never going to work." You don't want to be the Eeyore of your life so to speak. It's not going to serve you. It's your choice, but I would challenge you to think about, is this helpful? So, have an attitude of hope.
Warwick F:
So, when I got that first job in the aviation services company I was like, "Okay, this is not my dream job, but I'm analytical, maybe I can move up into something that benefits my skills." And whether it's coaching or a number of things I've done with the book, just each step, have an attitude of hope, have an attitude that tomorrow will be a better day. It may or may not, but have an attitude of hope, because that attitude of hope fuels movement, fuels progress, fuels success. An attitude of negativity and pessimism, what does that do? It fuels no growth, no steps. So, whether you feel like it or not, force yourself to have a hopeful attitude.
Gary S:
Yeah. And along those lines Warwick. One of the things that my wife and I have started to do in the midst of the what can feel like a bottomless crucible, the collective crucible, I believe he called it at the top of the show here. One of the things that we begun to do in the last month is every morning when we wake up, I went to the dollar store and bought like one dollars worth of five enormous things of slim ribbon. And every morning when we get up, we slice a bit of that ribbon off. And I've pulled an old vase from underneath in one of the cupboards and we put it up near where we have family photos in our bay window in the living room. And every morning we get up and together we take a little snip of that ribbon which is used to wrap gifts and we say out loud, thank you, today is a gift. And we drop that ribbon into that vase to remind ourselves that even in the midst of whatever crucibles we're facing, this is going to be relevant after the pandemic has passed.
Gary S:
But right now with the pandemic going on and some of the tensions going on in the culture, today, being alive today, having the opportunity to take a small step, having the opportunity to have hope, all of that is a gift. And that for us is a tangible way to tell ourselves when our eyes open first thing in the morning, today is a gift. And if we think about it in that way, that will breathe that attitude of hopefulness that you've just talked about.
Warwick F:
There's no question. In fact, there's a link between some of the last few... The last tip I have which really I hope leads into gratitude is it's easy to have an attitude of just complaining and being... I don't want to say ungrateful, but just what's the point, but being grateful for every small step. It's like, "Okay, thanks for the interview. Okay, I got that manuscript out to one more publisher." Well, at least maybe they said no, but maybe they gave some constructive feedback. Maybe there was something in there that was going to help you in the midst of the no. When I was going through those difficult years in the 90s, I was so blessed. I had a very supportive wife, not once not ever cut down on me, because she understood what I was going through. She was always supportive, never negative ever. I had young kids who I was daddy. They didn't know or care about what was happening in my professional life, which is a bit grim. So, being grateful for a loving wife and wonderful kids, we can always find a way to be grateful. People talk about having an attitude of gratitude.
Warwick F:
Maybe there are some who might say to themselves, "I have nothing to be grateful for." But I'd say the vast majority of people can think of something. I'm glad I'm alive, I'm so grateful for this because both hope and gratitude, they fuel energy, they fuel momentum and you want to turn that flywheel with these steps. You need to feed it. How do you feed it? With optimism, hope and gratitude. And really a final step that really links hope and gratitude or helps fuel them is, it really helps to have a cheerleading squad. You can surround yourself by negative naysayers like Gary, Warwick, we always knew you'd fail, it just makes sense you're in this position. Everybody knows you're hopeless. Well, that's a strategy, but I would say, don't talk to those people. Even if they're right to a degree, even the most nastiest negative person might have a grain of truth in it, which is why it typically hurts. If there was no truth in there, you wouldn't care. But surround yourself and hopefully it's a spouse, partner, kids, people that believe in you.
Warwick F:
Friends, we can all choose our friends. People that believe in you. You don't need people to tell you what to do. Well, that's good, but which can mean that was okay, but you're long way short. They keep moving the goalposts, that's not really a cheerleading squad, that's like, I'm never going to get the end zone because they keep moving the goalposts no matter how much I achieve, It's never good enough. That's not the right people. They may be well meaning, but you want people to celebrate each small win and say, "You know what, Gary, Warwick? That's awesome." You got an interview, or let's say it's Joanne Rowling.
Warwick F:
Joanne, maybe she's chatting to some of her friends at the cafe, her daughter has gone to sleep and she's taking a break from writing and they're saying, "Joanne, it's okay, I know that was the 10th rejection, but we believe in you, this thing will get published, keep going." For we know she had some friends that actually supported her. So, that is so valuable. Find those people that will support you, that will believe in you, that will help increase this attitude of hope. That will help foster the sense of gratitude in you. So, that's huge. It's another important step. Hope, gratitude and a cheerleading squad that help that flywheel. It's all about keeping that flywheel going. That is really the key. One small step at a time, get that flywheel going and then eventually, success will happen not maybe in the sense that you think about it or plan for it, but that is the way out of the black hole, out of the bottom of the mine shaft. Just keep going one small step at a time in a supportive environment.
Gary S:
As you talk about a cheerleading squad, one of the things that comes to mind for me and we hear it all the time and we've talked about it on the show before. Surround yourself with people who will tell you not what you want to hear but what you need to hear. But one of the things that makes those people valuable, is they know that sometimes what you need to hear is affirmation, sometimes what you need to hear is applause, is encouragement. Yeah, there may be times, there certainly are times, even in the midst of a bottomless crucible, in the midst of your crucible fatigue that you need to hear "hard truths." But the wise people, the good cheerleaders on your squad are going to be ones who will recognize the time to set that aside, the constructive criticism aside and just applaud you for those things that will help you move the next step that you have to take. The first step is important and the next step. Continuing to take the next step after that step, the 12th submission, the 13th submission of the Harry Potter manuscript. That's important.
Warwick F:
That's so true. If you were writing a job description of your cheerleading squad, one of the things you hear about people in the business world and giving feedback, they talk about the three to one ratio, three affirmations to one constructive criticism. And some people think they're helping you by just shovelling all over you in a massive pile, all of the things that you need to learn and do. And they all may be true, but you can't handle all of it at one time. And it's often not helpful. So, stress the affirmation, maybe ask a question rather than making a point. Is this the direction you want to go? Do you think this... How well does this fit with your gifts and skills? There's a way of rather than sledge hammering a person, gently guiding and nudging.
Gary S:
Correct.
Warwick F:
And ultimately, it's their life and you could be wrong anyway. So, don't think like you know everything. The odd word of wisdom is fine, but as you rightly say above all what they need is to move and they can't move without affirmation. Affirmation and support is like the oil that greases those clunky wheels, the flywheel that gets it really spinning. So, major on the affirmations, minor on the constructive criticism in small little doses.
Gary S:
Just as we don't need internal Eeyores, we don't need external Eeyores.
Warwick F:
That's true. What you don't need is a cheerleading squad that will say, "You know what? We knew you could never do it. We knew you'd always fail." That's like surrounding yourself with people that are tying ropes all over you and chains. You don't need to be chained down. So yes, those people should not qualify, they should not be hired for your cheerleading squad.
Gary S:
Absolutely. One of the things that I say at the end of every episode Warwick is, it's time to land the plane. So we're going to land the plane here in a bit. What as the captain of the plane, what are some parting thoughts you'd like to leave listeners with about this idea of fighting their way through what feel like bottomless crucibles, fatigue from crucible experiences?
Warwick F:
No matter how bad it feels, no matter how hopeless, how dark, how much of a black hole or deep mine shaft, the most important thing to ask yourself is this, what one small step can I take today? What one small step, no matter how small it is, can I take today? It all begins with a small step. All the other tips, the cheerleading, the hope, gratitude, vision, learning from your crucible experiences, learning about yourself, it all begins with what one small step. That is an attitude of the will, tell yourself I am going to take a small step today. I am going to do that. It all begins with one small step.
Gary S:
Well, I have been in the communications business long enough and I've used enough plane metaphors on this podcast to know the plane's landed and that's the last word that we should share for today from the mouth of both the founder of Crucible Leadership and the one who's lived through it. I usually often close the episode by running through some takeaways. And I'm just going to read through this list of takeaways from the blog that Warwick has written on this subject of how to fight through fatigue in a crucible context. So, usually I give one, two, three takeaways, here we're going to give seven takeaways. Step one is take one small step. Step two is, don't forget the vision. Step three, celebrate each small step. Step four, learn through your crucible. As you're going through your crucible, learn the lessons of your crucible. Really important. Five, cultivate an attitude of hope. Six, have a cheerleading squad. Seven, cultivate an attitude of gratitude.
Gary S:
Those sevens steps taken roughly in that order, but you may find as you're walking through it, there's a different order that works for you. But one of the things to remember as you're taking these steps, these aren't disconnected tips in the sense of try this here, try this here, try this here, maybe do this, skip that one. What Warwick's laid out for us here is really a roadmap, where each time your engine gets a little more fuel, the flywheel gets a little more energy and it pushes you through the fatigue that you're feeling about your crucibles. And the beautiful part of that is once you're past that fatigue, once that dissipates like black clouds being lifted, once you're through that, that's when you really begin to walk on that road to what we call a life of significance. On that subject, listen to one way that you can take a first step, the first step that you can take if you're unsure of what that first step might be is go to crucibleleadership.com and there we have a life of significance assessment.
Gary S:
You can answer very few questions, a few questions and you will be given tailored just for you, some results that will tell you as we've talked about this journey on the road to a life of significance. We'll show you where you are on that journey. We'll also give you some insight into your personality type as you're going through this. Where are you at personally? Are you an imagineer? Are you a world changer? What's the qualities of your personality where you're at on the journey? So you'll find out where you're at, you'll find out who you are, as you're at that point in the journey. And then most importantly, you will be given some tips, you will be given some takeaway tangible action steps you can take to continue the language we've been discussing here to continue powering yourself through the flywheel down the road to the life that you want to live. The life that you want to live that's on purpose and dedicated to helping others. So until the next time that we're together, thank you so much for spending this time with us.
Gary S:
Thank you for trusting us with your crucibles, for turning to us and to Warwick's insight and experience and aptitude to help you along the way of what the next step will be. And remember, as you take that first step, which then will lead to the second step, which then will lead to the third step. And if you're like J.K. Rowling, it could lead to a 13th step. That's good. Remember, as you go through that, that the crucible that you're in right now, even though it may feel bottomless, even though it may feel like you're fatigued by it, remember that that crucible, no matter how long it's been going on and how tiring it's been, is not the end of your story. That crucible can be the beginning of your story. And it can be a great beginning of your story. Because once you learn the lessons as you continue down that road, that road that you're on leads to something that you can't put a dollar figure on, that will bring you the most fulfillment that you can find. And that is your destination will be a life of significance.
Life can be exhausting. Certainly this year, 2020, has been exhausting. Between COVID-19 and the election in the U.S. and the strain it put on the national dialogue and personal relationships, who canβt wait for 2020 to be over? More generally, you may have been through a professional or personal crisis. You have been fired or lost your business. You may have lost a loved one, or someone you love may be battling an illness. When you feel the bottom of your crucible seems to never end, how do you keep going? How do you find the strength to keep going when there seems to be no end in sight?
Hereβs a seven-step roadmap to help you move past your crucible fatigue:
1. Take One Small Step
With life feeling so overwhelming, what one small step can you take today that is a positive step forward? No matter how small, think of something that will be beneficial.
2. Donβt Forget Your Vision
As you are taking one small step at a time, donβt forget the vision you are moving toward. That is key. Each step must take you one small step toward achieving your goal. Whether it is professional or personal. If you have been fired, you might take this as an opportunity to reflect on what direction you want to go in life. Maybe you want to change careers. So today you might start journaling about what you want in life and your career. And donβt forget: Reflection should precede action. Before you go out seeking a new job, reflect and journal first. One small step. For a personal challenge, it might be different. In the case of loss of a loved one, for instance, what can you do today that you would enjoy? Maybe it is a walk with a friend, reminiscing about the joy you had being with your loved one. Maybe it is doing something you enjoy that is about making you a little bit happy even for a moment. Yes, there is the grieving process, but think of one thing you can do today that will be positive and helpful to you.
3. Celebrate Each Small Step
As you take a positive step forward, no matter how small celebrate it. It is a win. Each step is a win. Remember one small win at a time adds up to a bigger win. When you look back and see several days of small wins, it begins to create momentum that can move you past your fatigue. As you look back at several weeks or several months, you will see how far you have come. Perhaps you are becoming a different person; you have evolved in a positive way.
4. Learn Through Your Crucible
As you begin to take positive small steps forward and celebrate them, reflect on what you might learn from this crucible time. If you were fired, perhaps there were reasons. Perhaps there are some insights you might be able to apply to your next job. You might have thought you knew all the answers. You were the expert and so you didnβt need to listen. How you will you learn from this experience? What will you do differently next time? History does tend to repeat itself. What part of your history do you not want to repeat? For a personal crucible the learning may be different. Perhaps you might learn that you are stronger than you thought you were. Even though the personal loss is devastating, you are more resilient than you knew. Perhaps it might make you take stock and reflect on what is really important to you in life as you move forward.
5. Cultivate an Attitude of Hope
Even though you are tired and worn out, as you take one small step at a time, try to be hopeful and optimistic. We are often what we believe. Think of how tomorrow could be better than today. Think of the positive steps we can take. This is not naive hopefulness, but a decision of the will to think positively. Thinking negatively will only bring you down. Why go there?
6. Have a Cheerleading Squad
It might feel a bit hokey to have friends who are cheering you on saying, βYouβre awesome! Youβre wonderful! You can do it!β But as cheesy as it might sound, it does work. These are friends who genuinely believe in what they are saying. When you get down, such friends pick you up and keep you moving forward. When you have made a small win, they are there to celebrate with you; and importantly to remind you that you have achieved a small win and that you need to celebrate.
7. Have an Attitude of Gratitude
It may be a cliche, but having a grateful heart and a grateful attitude fills your heart and soul with positive energy. Complaining and whining, however understandable, does not serve you. Why wouldnβt you want to pick the path that serves you and fuels you? Pick the grateful path. Reflect on the blessings you have. It could be your spouse or partner, or your kids. Perhaps it is friends. Perhaps it is the achievements you have made or the people you have helped; or the people who have helped you. Be grateful for these opportunities. When you have a grateful heart, the world does not seem so bad. It will give you more energy to take the next step.
Coming out of a dark place, a challenging crucible, is not easy. The road may not be short. But the road to coming back from your crucible, even to lessening the sense of fatigue and hopelessness, begins with ONE SMALL STEP. Each small positive step builds on the next. Pretty soon you will have a flywheel of positive small steps. Perhaps some of your cheerleading team will be part of your team to help a budding vision you are having come to reality. A vision, be it small or large, is birthed out of one positive small step. What one positive small step will you take today that years from now you will look back and celebrate? This was the step that led me to where I am now.
Reflection
What one small positive step can you take today to begin moving beyond your crucible fatigue?
What will you do to celebrate it?
Is there a vision that is being birthed out of these positive small steps? If so, what is it?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Her resume is wildly impressive: best-selling author, award-winning screenwriter, successful entrepreneur, celebrated fitness trainer and health activist — she even won Miss Congeniality at the Miss California USA pageant. But Kimberly Spencer’s accomplishments hid her demons — bulimia, trying to be who others wanted and expected her to be, a victim of emotional self-sabotage. When she realized she had the power to crown herself whole, she stopped breaking off pieces of her personal and professional selves to fit into others’ boxes. That revelation has led to a career as an internationally acclaimed speaker and high-performance coach who helps audiences and clients reassemble the diamonds within and build lives of joy and significance.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Kimberly S:
It's kind of like if you smashed a diamond, right? So you get to the point when you're forming this diamond, when you find it, it's this mucky dirty rock, and you got to have those cuts and those shapes and those things. But what happens when life, the drill, whatever, cracks that diamond and splits it to where that it's no longer this beautiful, perfect, shiny rock, but something happened where it like the laser broke it. Well, you still have a diamond, it just needs to be refined and cut. It needs to be perfected again.
Gary S:
Have you ever felt like that, like a diamond blown apart, that what you thought made you valuable was gone in an instant? If so, you'll find some encouragement and insight to discover your true value, your unique vision in today's episode. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. And today our guest is Kimberly Spencer, an award-winning high-performance coach and trainer, Amazon bestselling co-author, international motivational speaker and the founder of crownyourself.com. Where she helps visionary leaders build their empire and stand out in their full potential in their bodies, in their businesses and in their relationships. Kimberly is proof of something we can't say enough here at Beyond the Crucible, that it's better to make your own mold than to conform to someone else's.
Warwick F:
Well, Kimberly, thanks so much. I'd love to talk here in a bit about what you do in helping people and women in particular, throw off limiting beliefs, just finding their own story and their own journey in Crown Yourself. But tell us a bit about yourself now. You're obviously from the US but you're not in the US right now, so tell folks where you are.
Kimberly S:
We are currently in the Gold Coast of Australia. My husband was appearing in the Gold Coast, ironically, with the cast of the Walking Dead for a convention back in March when the pandemic was starting. And we just decided if we're going to be on lockdown, we would prefer to have the beach as our backyard. So we rented an Airbnb and have been bebopping in Airbnbs ever since, which has been about seven months of a lot of fun and a lot of growth. And it's such a beautiful time. We could not have picked a better place and space for us to be. Things are opening back up then my son actually gets to go to pre-kinder where he can hug other children, because that kid is a hugger.
Warwick F:
Now, how many kids do you have?
Kimberly S:
Just him for right now.
Warwick F:
And he's how old?
Kimberly S:
Three.
Warwick F:
Three. Okay, wow. So this wasn't like a planned, permanent move to Australia. You were just kind of stuck there so to speak on the Gold Coast, which in Queensland sort of semi-tropical beaches, they're probably worse places to be stuck than the Gold Coast.
Gary S:
Yeah, that doesn't sound like being stuck to me.
Kimberly S:
Yeah, we call it stuck by choice when people ask, when you get stuck at it. We did have plane tickets back, but instead we put my parents on those plane tickets and said, we'll stay here, so.
Warwick F:
At some point, you are going to move back to the US.
Kimberly S:
Yeah, at some point, perhaps, but it's always been my husband and my vision to travel around the world and to have online businesses and to be able to work from wherever and specifically to be able to allow our children to be raised by experiences of different cultures, instead of just reading about them in a book. And that's something that's very important for me. And so this vision, it took a lot of faith and courage. And as I just said on another call earlier today, I said, trust really is my word for 2020 of just, it's kind of like bungee jumping. Like I've bungee jumped once before in my life, when I really felt a need to throw myself off a building, but I wanted to survive. So I said, hey, let's do bungee jumping. And there is this moment when you're bungee jumping and like, it takes the act of courage, like of leaping off of a platform to be able to then perilously plunge toward the ground.
Kimberly S:
And there's a moment of surrender and trust that, that rope is going to catch you. And when it does, it's the most freeing and yet supportive feeling I've ever had where suddenly you're flying through the air because you know you are fully 100% supported. But it took a plunge to get there in essence, where you didn't know if you were going to hit the cement and have a really bad accident or fly through the air with the greatest of ease and that's really what 2020 has felt like for me of like giant leaps of faith and of really learning to trust where certainty lives in my body and what certainty feels like.
Kimberly S:
And what I mean by certainty is like the world around us can like throw us curve balls obviously, thanks to 2020 we all know that. But with the curve balls, there is a certainty that you can cultivate through those experiences that I've spent my life cultivating. That is a certainty that no matter what happens, you can figure it out. When I felt like staying in the Gold Coast would be the best for me, the best for my husband, the best for my family, I said, let's stay here. Let's do this.
Kimberly S:
And I remember having a conversation with my husband. I said like, "Where are you on the decision scale?" Because for me, once I make a decision, there's no going back. Like that's like, but I have to be at 100%. That decision is made in my soul and in my gut and I know where it lives in my body. And I was talking to my husband, he said he was like 90% there. I said, "If you're not 100% then we go home." I said, "Because I can't be the only one who's certain, because this is, it's not just me who's staying. It's ..."
Warwick F:
Those are very wise words that have good marriage advice. Make sure you're both on the same page. You're both committed and be willing to give up, not like give up, but just, I don't know if the word is compromise, but just you give the other person the freedom to say yes, when you say, I really want to do this, but if you are not with this, then let's not do it. It actually increases the chance they'll say yes, ironically.
Kimberly S:
Yeah, and he wanted to do it, he just wasn't certain 100% because it was that act of faith. And then finally he took about an hour. He really sat with himself, he got quiet and he came back, he was like a 100%, let's stay.
Warwick F:
Life is an adventure. So you obviously live that, which is awesome. So let's go back a bit. And from what I understand, you grew up in Los Angeles area, San Fernando Valley, no less, which I guess, was valley girl or whatever came from that. I'm sure not everybody's like that because ...
Kimberly S:
Yes, I have worked hard to lose my valley girl accent.
Warwick F:
Oh, you probably never had one.
Kimberly S:
But it does flip out after a couple of glasses of wine.
Warwick F:
So tell us about growing up. I understand you, like a number of people, you had some challenges that made it a bit difficult to figure out who you were and self-sabotage. So talk a bit about some of that growing up, because I think that sets the scene of who you are now and what you're passionate about.
Kimberly S:
Yeah. It really did set the scene because I grew up with my dad who ... my parents are the most generous human beings. And yet they like everyone has their own demons and my dads was addiction. And so growing up with an addict and my mom was the quintessential co-dependent who really didn't want to deal with feelings because they were messy. So she would just, she had like what I call ostrich syndrome. She would just pop her head in the sand, everything's fine.
Kimberly S:
And for me, I think that we're blessed with the children that we need to highlight parts of us that we've kind of lost. I know that with my own journey into motherhood, my son has just blessed me with this unshakable compassion that I see an empathy that he has is just, is profound. And so I think I was blessed to my parents to remind them of feeling, and that there is safety and actually freedom in allowing yourself to process and go through all of the feelings and emotions and whatnot.
Kimberly S:
But it took me a long time to get to this point because I saw my dad, he would escape from his feelings of shame and guilt and anger and rage. And my mom would pretend like they didn't exist. I mean, when I was a kid, I was very emotional. It was a very emotional kid because injustice just bothered me to my core and hypocrisy specifically. And so when I would see hypocritical behavior in my parents, I would kind of feel this like rage of just like, I feel like I just wanted to shake them. Not only just because of the hypocrisy, but because I saw their potential.
Kimberly S:
That's always been something that I've been able to see in others that like many of my clients that I work with now, when they come out on the other side and they're like, "Oh my God, Kim, did you imagine that this was possible for me?" And I was like, "Yeah, I saw it from the beginning. Like there was no doubt in my mind that you could not achieve that." Like it's just, I see potential and I see possibility in everyone. So when I grew up, I had my dad who was the addict, but I also had the moments when he was sober. So I say that I grew up with four dads, which was great because it did teach me sensory acuity at a very young age-
Warwick F:
When you say four dads, how do you mean?
Kimberly S:
Yeah. So I grew up with the asshole alcoholic dad. The painkiller popping manic dad who would go on wild whirlwind shopping sprees and bring home tons of random crap. The stoner dad who was really laid back, just super supportive, just kind of just chill, would just hang out on the couch. And then the really cool sober dad who would take me to the park and was really, really, always supportive and taught me some of my greatest pieces of entrepreneurial advice, because even though my dad was an addict, he was able to build a multi-million dollar company through his addiction.
Kimberly S:
So I was like, if you could do that while drunk, like imagine what your potential, like just the untapped potential. And that's the thing that just makes me this such a warrior for possibility and a warrior for potential is when I see that potential, that's really being sabotaged by ourselves in many ways. That fear of really stepping into that unknown and into that all that you really could be. And it does come from having those feelings and being able to experience those emotions of fear and shame and guilt, and then moving into courage and then taking those acts of courage every single day.
Warwick F:
So how did that look like for you because I know, I understand that you had some periods of self-sabotage, maybe some, I don't know, if eating disorders the right word, but some obviously having a dad with no sense four personality types that you don't need to be a psychologist to know it's not good for kids. Which dad am I going to have? I mean, I don't have that kind of a parenting experience a little bit in terms of, who am I going to see now? So I have a little bit of understanding of that, not at the same level. But talk about how does self-sabotage look for you at the time?
Kimberly S:
Well, for me, my form of self-sabotage was not understanding what to do with all these big emotions. Like I saw my dad escape from them. I saw my mom suppress them and repress them and pretend like they didn't exist. And meanwhile, like there I was with all these feelings and I didn't have any way of processing them. And my way of processing them did become bulimia. If you think about it in a metaphorical standpoint, like I would shove all my feelings down and then I would explode. And that was the feeling and the pattern that I was used to for years growing up in my household.
Kimberly S:
It's like eventually, eventually the lid would come off. Eventually you can't escape from it, from your feelings forever. So eventually there would be a moment of like volcanic release. And that was just how I learned how to control that was in a way of binge-ing and purging, which is not obviously healthy. And the biggest belief that I struggled with was being enough because I thought maybe if I was smart enough, then my dad would stop drinking. Maybe if I was skinny enough, then my dad would change. Maybe if I was this, maybe if I was that. So it was always this constant fear of being enough when it was never my stuff to be enough or like, yeah.
Warwick F:
I mean, you obviously, have a lot of clients and friends who've probably been through similar circumstances. Do you feel that you see this pattern of when the people are broken around you somehow as a kid, you think, well, it's my fault. As crazy as that ... because how could it possibly be your fault? It's not your fault, but somehow I don't pretend to fully understand it, but you've seen that I imagine. Did you feel that in some weird sense that it was your fault which just sounds crazy?
Kimberly S:
It does sound crazy. And in doing the research for my book I stumbled upon this really interesting principle called the just world bias. And what I've seen from high achiever is, especially high achievers that instead of taking that more victim mindset where they blame everybody else outside of them, high achievers are very skilled specifically at putting themselves in that sort of villain standpoint, where they put themselves at fault and they take responsibility for things that aren't their responsibility, like other people and other people's feelings.
Kimberly S:
And what I found was this thing called the just world bias, which we all have. And we see it in the news nowadays with like when a woman gets raped, then people say, oh, she must have been asking for it or oh, she must've deserved it, or oh, it must've been her skirt or something ridiculous like that. And it's really our toddler brains have this like desire to be, for the world to be fair. I mean, I hear it with my son of like, oh, that's not fair. And I'm like, oh, so that's where it comes from?
Kimberly S:
Our toddlers have got, like and our subconscious minds are like toddlers. So when we are the victim of events, whether in childhood or in adulthood, and I've had both, that are unexplainable things and acts of human cruelty that aren't our fault, but that are this period where we can either hold onto it and hold on to like, what happened? That what happens with this just world bias is it's our belief that it is our fault, that we must've done something to deserve it. And especially with high achievers who are incredibly skilled at putting themselves at fault for things that aren't their fault, then it's like, just like when we hear those things of that woman getting raped or whatnot, and somebody says, oh, she must've deserved it because she must have had the skirt or whatever, but that's our brains doing the same thing to us because we're putting ourselves-
Warwick F:
And the crazy thing is people do say that.
Kimberly S:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
I would say more so in times past and more so in certain cultures, which it's hard to think how people don't say that, but they do say that certainly in times gone by and other places. There's this phrase, I understand you mention that, see if, I don't know if I'm accurately quoting it, but you felt broken and something about breaking off pieces of yourself to fit into other people's mold. I mean, that's a fascinating thought. Talk about what you mean by that about breaking off pieces to fit into other people's mold.
Kimberly S:
So, because I didn't feel enough, I felt like I had to conform to being what other people wanted and maybe that would be enough. So once I started to heal myself from bulimia, which I did with no psychological or medical intervention, I then realized that our, the deep stuff, like those beliefs around what we deserve our worth, our enough-ness, they'll merge into a different form if they're not dealt with in that original thing. So while I healed a lot of it with my body and I felt finally enough in my body at the age of 22, I was able to walk down, the moment that I walked down the Miss California pageant runway in front of a crowd of 5,000 in my bathing suit, I felt free.
Kimberly S:
I felt that was where I really crowned myself in essence, where I just, I stood on that stage and I felt like the body, I got this. Like my body, I built up the trust with my body again. I had really transformed my perceptions of my body. The problem was, is I had the three deep seated beliefs of worthiness, of enough-ness, of deserving, they then jumped forms into my relationships. And so in my romantic relationships, I would be very skilled at playing the part that I thought the other person needed to love me.
Warwick F:
It's almost like a sort of a marketing concept. What brand does that person want? I can be that brand. I can be that person who they'll like. I mean, it's, which may work in business, but it's certainly not a good idea in relationships.
Kimberly S:
And it doesn't work in your soul, like your heart, your gut, your soul knows when your BS-ing yourself. But that was also, I grew very skilled at that because just from my childhood experiences, I knew I would have to adapt my behavior for the alcoholic dad or adapt my behavior differently for the stoner dad, or like, I learned very quickly how to adapt my behavior, so I adapted in my relationships to the behavior that I thought my partners wanted.
Kimberly S:
So maybe they didn't want the silly side or like the ambitious side. So I would hide those parts of myself and it was suffocating. And it just got to the point where I remember it was two hours before I met my forever husband, and I was praying as I was driving to this networking event. And I was like, good Lord, I just want to be authentic and I want to travel. Those are the two things I wanted.
Warwick F:
That's a two interesting concepts, authenticity and travel.
Kimberly S:
Yeah. And so I remember when my husband sauntered up to me at the bar and he said, "Hi, my name is Spike." And I said, "Hi, my name is Kim." And he said, "Kim, I got one question for you." I said, "What's that?" And he said, "Are you single?" And I said, "Well." At the time I was in a relationship, but it was one of those, it's complicated relationships. It wasn't really going that well. And I said, "I guess you could say I'm in a, it's complicated." He said, "Great, at least I'm not barking up the wrong tree, let's grab a drink."
Kimberly S:
So we grabbed a drink and we started talking. And I remember there were moments where I had to summon the courage to keep that commitment that I had made just a couple hours earlier, where I knew that I could easily fall into default behavior of agreeing that, sure. I like '80s music. I don't like '80s music.
Gary S:
Oh, no. Oh, no.
Kimberly S:
Except Depeche Mode. I am a Depeche Mode, like I have converted to Depeche Mode, but-
Warwick F:
I have to say just really briefly. I was on somebody else's podcast and one of their questions was, what's your favorite '80s artists? And I must've given the right one because I said, "I can't really think of any, I'm not really an '80s person," so go figure. But-
Gary S:
I'm sorry, Kimberly, I cut you off in a very important point just because I'm an '80s music fan.
Kimberly S:
Great, it's all good.
Warwick F:
Which one of us gave the right answer? Anyway, go ahead. So you risk your future.
Kimberly S:
Gary was horrified, how could you not be into the '80s music?
Warwick F:
So there you are with your future husband and you're almost about to say I love '80s music.
Kimberly S:
Yeah. And I was almost about to say, just hide the fact that I'd been previously married because that was something I felt deep shame about running off with a Navy man and then getting divorced nine months later. I was incredibly ashamed about that. But I said, I remember the moment, it started with '80s music and then it just kind of spiraled out of there where I did everything that you're not supposed to do in a relationship where I just kind of baggage dumped.
Kimberly S:
I said, "Yeah, this is me. This is what I've done. This is what I'm really not proud of. This is how I grew up. This is what happened. You like what you see?" And he was ... my husband had gone through his own crucible with his ex-wife being unfaithful and untruthful, and he loved it, he loved the authenticity.
Warwick F:
See that, that's the sort of thing. I mean, I know we haven't really talked about it, faith perspective, but from my faith perspective, sometimes if you're honest with yourself and with the other person, the Lord honors that in some way. And if you would just put on the mask, Kimberly and figure out, okay, which Kimberly shall I pull out of which drawer, the funny, the extrovert, the smart, the ambitious, he might've said, you know what? Bye, not interested. I mean, who's to know, but it's possible, right?
Kimberly S:
Yeah. It's definitely possible. I think, because we know when we're BS-ing ourselves and other people feel it too. Like if you know, then what is the energy that you're putting out there into the world where people are just like, I don't know, there's something about you, but I don't know. I don't know what that is.
Warwick F:
So I'd love to hear what you're doing now, but just as we kind of transition, I mean, you've done a lot of things. I mean, while you were, maybe from a health and physical standpoint, you felt good, but you mentioned there were other sides, there was pieces you were still trying to figure out, but you weren't just sitting around. I mean, whether it's Ms. California and everybody's seen the movie Miss Congeniality, but you actually won that award, which just briefly tell folks what that is because I think of the movie and it's probably not quite that ... Tell us what that is.
Kimberly S:
So Miss Congeniality, I won it in the Miss Teenage California pageant and it's funny because I won it and I was so excited because it came with a scholarship and everything. And then I dropped out of college two weeks before I was supposed to start. So I didn't get to collect the scholarship, but it's basically for the friendliest person in the audience. And it was one I remember because pageants, I got into pageants when I was 15 and that was like right in the heyday of my eating disorder.
Kimberly S:
But part of my eating disorder was the fact that I didn't have peers around me that mirrored my ambition, that mirrored my drive and my desire to serve. I was running for class president and I remember I expected to like end at least hunger in Los Angeles within the year. So I have been unthinkably optimistic since forever and I always can find a silver lining in pretty much anything, including all my past experiences that I've been through. And I've been through some pretty gnarly ones. But the beautiful thing is that ... Oh Gary, did you have something to say?
Gary S:
I was going to say, to Warwick's point when he was talking about all the things that you've done. I mean, I read the intros to all the guests we have on the show and it was hard to breathe at some points because there's this-
Warwick F:
What?
Gary S:
There's so much stuff there and you didn't even put it all in your bio. You, for instance, some other things that people may not know about you, that you have on your website, that you co-wrote a hardcore, a motocross movie called Bro. And you have still have yet to ride a dirt bike. Your favorite color is glitter. Okay, we could have gleaned that a little bit. My favorite one that you have listed here, Kimberly and we've talked about this, you do your best writing while listening to movie scores from superhero films.
Gary S:
So I just want you to know that today I dressed for the occasion in my own, if you're watching it on YouTube, I have an iron man t-shirt on. And then I've got an enormous iron man pin on there as well. And you didn't even mention your experience with Shark Tank. So you've done all of these things. You pitched something on Shark Tank and-
Kimberly S:
Well, not on the ... I pitched something to the first round of Shark Tank auditions. So it was not like, I didn't actually pitch to the sharks. Our products got featured in Times Square and then the casting director actually for the Shark Tank auditions lived right down the street from my office, from my eCommerce company. And he'd seen the product and he was like, come in for the audition. And so I brought the product and I pitched it.
Kimberly S:
And I don't know what happened after that because a week, I think it was two weeks later, my partner said he wanted to buy me out, so that caused that split. And that was my own crucible in itself because that buyout was the first time I'd ever ... First of all, it was three months before my wedding. And so I was dealing for the first time in my life with lawyers and they don't send nice emails.
Warwick F:
No.
Gary S:
No.
Kimberly S:
They don't typically send lovely, loving, like emails that are full of support. It's just like, it was the first time I'd ever had my integrity called into check, or my capabilities called into question, or my background or my education experience. None of which was called into question when I first joined the company. So we ended up signing the buyout agreement three weeks before I got married and just because I didn't want to deal with lawyers on my honeymoon. And I came up with the idea for Crown Yourself actually when I was in Italy because I was wondering like, what the F am I going to be doing when I get back home? Because-
Warwick F:
And before you get to Crown Yourself, just to finish what Gary was saying, what's amazing is you mentioned that film, Bro. You had a Pilates studio, I think Fitness with Kim. You run four marathons. I mean my gosh, it exhausts me just thinking about-
Kimberly S:
Five.
Warwick F:
... running one. I mean it's ... You created, I guess the stretching device with Shark Tank. I mean, you were kind of going full throttle. I mean you were kind of going at it. But as you were going at it, you were probably, were you trying to figure out, okay, who am I and trying to be authentic and hence Crown Yourself was birthed out? So talk about Crown Yourself and how that linked to all of these things you were doing because you were driven and from the world's perspective you were succeeding. What's not to be proud of? I mean, what's the problem. You're going full throttle and doing incredible things.
Kimberly S:
Thank you.
Warwick F:
But yet, was there something missing as you were doing that or, I mean or ...
Kimberly S:
I think what was missing was alignment. It was alignment, but it was also, I always was allowing myself to follow my curiosity. So I thought for years that it was Hollywood, that it was screenwriting, that it was making movies, that it was becoming this producer and then I would have the income and the impact to be able to serve in the way that I wanted to serve. Well, that was A, a bit more challenging and B, soul sucking to be constantly cast in the role of hot girl number, whatever, where I was like, there's no meat to that story. There's like, that's just some like ditzy girl, that's this like it, I didn't like those roles.
Kimberly S:
I met my co-writing partner at a networking event. I was very entrepreneurial with my show biz endeavor. So I was like networking like a crazy person. And I understood to some degree like entrepreneurship is just building relationships. And so I cultivated relationships and he eventually came to me and he wanted me to produce this movie that he had no script. And I said, "Well, how about me?" And so I'd always been really good at making very audacious asks early on. And so I made the audacious ask, he said, "Great, write 10 pages of a scene, we'll pass it off to the executive producer."
Kimberly S:
I wrote 10 pages of three guys that walk into a strip club. I got the notes back with like, "How do you know what happens in men's minds?" And I was like, three guys in a strip club, ain't that hard? But so I wrote this thing that nobody expected. Like I love surprising people and doing things that nobody expects. And I also love transformative stories. So this movie was at least the opportunity that I could write a story about a young kid who's trying to fit in with the cool crowd.
Kimberly S:
So it wasn't about motocross, it was about acceptance. I understand that on an emotional level, because I had just gone through a breakup with the first boyfriend, the first love of my life. That was because he was trying to be accepted into this other crowd that I was like, whoa, that's not a crowd I want to hang with.
Warwick F:
As you were doing all these things, how did you get to a point where you found kind of the real Kimberly and you're able to be yourself? I mean, do all these fabulous things. You haven't stopped being adventurous. You haven't stopped being driven, which is great. But somehow I feel like what you're doing now, what you're teaching other people and other women to do is different. So talk about it because it feels nuanced, because on the outside it may look like, well Kimberly's life is not really that much different, but yet it is in some sense, isn't it?
Kimberly S:
It's different because I know what business I'm really in. And I mean, that is like my purpose. And no matter what form it took, whether it was screenwriting or being the president of an eCommerce company or my fitness, every single one of those businesses was the business of transforming people's stories because I had to transform my own. When I was transforming, I transformed people's stories through writing that film. Like when I was approached by the mother of this boy who saw the film and changed his life because of that film that I co-wrote, like that was amazing.
Kimberly S:
And when I heard that, I was like that, that is what I want, to transform people's stories because when I had that dream achieved, I was like, I was surprised. I've always had this very strong internal dialogue ever since I recovered from bulimia where I was surprised that I was only 90% fulfilled. I was like, this was a dream that I'd waited for a decade to manifest into reality. And suddenly it was there. And my name was on the big screen and it was a moment instead.
Kimberly S:
Two weeks later, when I hear from the mother of this boy who came to the premiere, that her son changed his life. That moment, I was like, that's what I want to do. And that was the same reason as to why I got into teaching Pilates as well, because I wanted to transform people's stories about their bodies because Pilates transformed my own story about my body.
Warwick F:
It's interesting as you say that because in Crucible Leadership we talk about, life's about living a life of significance, which we define as a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And what we say a lot is nothing wrong with being successful, but success in of itself is not really satisfying. It's like, okay, you reached the top of the mountain. It's like, well, then what, right? Ants crawling up an anthill, you reach at the top and it's like, okay, well now what?
Warwick F:
There's nothing wrong with it, but when your perspective is, I'm here to serve others. I'm here to help that, talk with that mother and the boy who saw the movie, helping people in Pilates classes, that to me brings joy. We all want joy in life. We all want a joy filled life, a joy filled marriage, joy filled family. But when you're ... It feels like you're using your talents and your ability and your drive in the service of others. I mean, is that fair? I mean, do you feel like, as you're doing that, that is bringing you joy?
Kimberly S:
Oh, 100%. Like having been able to grow Crown Yourself and serve the people that I have been blessed with to serve through the community that I've built has been one of the greatest experiences. It took a ton of courage because after I was bought out of my company, I definitely had my doubts. I had my fears, I questioned everything because that's like, I'd had such fear. But after a year and a half, it was when I found out I was pregnant, that I was just like, I know that I'm meant to serve on such a bigger level than just teaching fitness or than just helping people with their back pain.
Kimberly S:
Like I want full on transformation. Like one of my clients, she texted me. She's like, Oh my gosh, her daughter finally got back in touch with her after years of distance. She'd gotten divorced from a crappy marriage. She'd moved into a beautiful home. She'd found alignment in her business. I was like that, that is what I live for, the fact that she was no longer living someone else's life of what someone said that she should be doing, and instead, actually in her 50s started leading the life that she always dreamed of living and fully living it. And that-
Warwick F:
There's an important point in what you're saying, Kimberly, that I want listeners to hear is there's nothing wrong with running a Pilates studio-
Kimberly S:
No.
Warwick F:
... and that's great. But for you, you felt like not a higher calling, but maybe for you, it felt like playing small. Not that it is playing small for everybody, but for Kimberly, it felt like there was another mission, another journey and you wanted to be faithful to it, in a bit like bungee jumping, you mentioned earlier, not being afraid to jump, right?
Kimberly S:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
And listeners really need to hear that is, don't settle. Don't settle for something you know, yeah, I'm doing fine, but there's more to life than doing fine. There might be a bigger mission. Something that is really calling you, beckoning you. Listen to that voice. Take that leap. Don't just settle. I think that's kind of what I'm hearing. And in your approach with Crown Yourself, I know there's three components, including eliminating negative self-talk and creating high-performance patterns, helping support change and growth. Talk about some of these elements. And certainly one of the keys, I think from what you've mentioned is eliminating that negative self-talk. Talk about why that's so foundational to changing your story, to crowning yourself in the best sense of that word.
Kimberly S:
Well, I think a lot of times beliefs are like wardrobes, but a lot of times we get stuck in the same outdated clothes that we don't realize are outdated until we recognize that they're not really fitting in with the rest of the surroundings or they don't look anything like how we want them, we think we look. And so, one of the things that it's less about, it is about eliminating the negative self-talk. But I think there's always going to be that voice of fear or doubt that just, it's there for our survival and making friends with it in a way of understanding that why it's there is really important. Because when we know that it's there for our survival, then we can see where it's trying to keep us small so that it thinks it's keeping us safe.
Warwick F:
Right.
Kimberly S:
And courage, acts of courage, it takes courage to sometimes just start by questioning it. There is power in our questions. And so as a coach, what I do is I just start asking people questions that they've never thought to question before. Questioning their beliefs. Questioning their habits. Questioning what they're doing and why they're doing what they're doing, and how they could maybe do it differently to then work back from the goal of who they want to become instead of working toward it from their perspective of where they are now.
Warwick F:
Right. Just understanding what are your beliefs. I'm sure you ask them, is this belief, is this emotion, is it serving you? I'm sure that's, you probably delve into that and just helping. You're right, I mean, primitive people, I mean, there was a reason for fear, the saber tooth tiger is coming and you got to run, climb a tree, run into a cave. I mean, there's a reason, they can serve you. But on the other hand, some of those negative emotions can bind you up and just stop you growing and moving. So you help folks unpackage that, is that kind of part of it?
Kimberly S:
Unpackage that, and also examine the stories that they're telling themselves. I'd question always very frequently, the big one that I question the stories of being busy, because life will expand to meet you where you choose to expand, but that means you need space to expand and grow. And if you're constantly telling yourself that you're the story of busy and I did this, so that's why I know it so personally like the story of such busy-ness, that I'm so busy, then there's no space for that expansion.
Warwick F:
There's no space to change or to grow.
Kimberly S:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
Like you can say, oh, I'm so busy. I'm running my Pilates studio and it's doing great. I don't have time to think about anything else. While that maybe wouldn't serve you and you obviously took a different path in which you took time, in some sense to examine what is that I want? Who am I? Where do I want to go? Some of those big questions.
Kimberly S:
Yeah. And when I started really looking at my schedule, I was like, I'm not that busy. Like I'm busy, but I'm not that busy. And am I busy doing the on-purpose things? Am I busy doing the things that really move the needle? And that's the key is so often we'll busy ourselves with things that we think we're supposed to be doing or should be doing, or that are the things that we ... like there's almost this like pride in how long your to do list is, with a lot of high achievers that I see kind of stay stuck.
Warwick F:
What you just said is so profound. I want listeners to get this. You said, "Are you busy with the things that are serving your purpose?" Or something to that effect. And I think 90% of people, they don't ask that question. I'm sure a lot of your clients that you chat to and talk to, it's like hmm, gee, I don't know.
Kimberly S:
I was really blessed to learn that lesson early.
Gary S:
This is a great time to do what I like to say, talk about landing the plane. I heard the captain, the little bell that goes off and the plane. He's asked us to fasten our seat belts because that was a very excellent point. And I've been wanting to ask you this, the entire time that we've been together here Kimberly, because what you've just described, what Warwick has framed up for listeners as well, is that your life from the outside looking in, people who would have known you before you were living as joyfully as you are now. May look at you and say, well, it's not that different. Kimberly's still working hard and working fast and her to-do list is long.
Gary S:
And there's one thing that you wrote about a nickname your husband has for you that I think is fascinating because I think what it says, it says something very instructive to listeners. You say your husband calls you honeybee because you're always buzzing around. And I want listeners to hear that because Kimberly is still extremely busy. She's still working hard. She's still focused on things, but she's focused by her words on the right things. She's focused on the things that bring her joy, the things that her passions really ignite, the things that help other people that on purpose look to help other people.
Gary S:
And you listener in your crucible experience, as you bounce back, you don't have to do a 180 from what you're doing, right? You certainly haven't done a 180 from the outside looking in, you've got an emotional 180, but in terms of the way you apply yourself, that's the same. And I think that's important for listeners to realize you don't have to reinvent every aspect of yourself. You have to reorient yourself. Is that fair?
Kimberly S:
Very much so. It's like the metaphor of the plane, where if you're flying from New York to Los Angeles, it's those constant checking ins of are you one degree off course? Because one degree off course could land you in San Francisco or Baja, California. So it's those constant check-ins of alignment. Of questioning, is this the highest and best service that I can be doing right now? Like, and I asked that too this morning.
Kimberly S:
I looked at the meetings that I had today, the podcast interviews that I had today, is this the best and highest service that I can be doing right now? Is this me operating in my genius zone? Yes. And I've seen a direct correlation between people's income and the amount of time that they're spending operating in their genius zone rather than busying themselves with all the tasks and all the things and all the stuff that they could be busy with.
Warwick F:
And what you just said again is so profound, is that you tend to think, oh, to be successful I have to put on a certain mask and be a certain person. But we live in light of who we truly are, and we live our authentic selves, all things being equal, you actually might be more successful is counter-intuitive, but it's not, authenticity is not against success. It can be in line with it. There's one, maybe last thing that I'm fascinated by that I heard you say that, when you work with folks you're not focusing on how they're broken, but how they're well.
Warwick F:
And yes, counseling, dealing with some of those negative things are important, but you don't want to just wallow, not wallow, but deal with that. But just, there are parts of us that are actually not broken. They're diamonds or gems. They're parts of us that a beautiful. That's a very different way of thinking, that sometimes even when we're broken, there are parts that are beautiful and well, so what do you mean by that?
Kimberly S:
It's kind of like if you smashed a diamond, right? So you get to the point when you're forming this diamond and when you first find it, it's this mucky dirty rock. And you've got to have those cuts and those shapes and those things. But what happens when life, the drill, whatever, cracks that diamond and splits it to where that it's no longer this beautiful, perfect, shiny rock, but something happened where it like the laser broke it. Well, you still have a diamond, it just needs to be refined and cut. It needs to be perfected again.
Kimberly S:
And so what I constantly tell my community is you're both perfect right now, no matter what you're going through and you can also be perfecting. So it's not an either or scenario, it is an and which is the great paradox for our brains to kind of wrap our heads around that you can both be perfect and enough as you are and can keep growing and can keep perfecting and can keep growing your skillset and can keep improving.
Kimberly S:
And so I see that potential for growth while also seeing them perfect in the moment of whatever it is that they're going through that is true for them. As we work on transforming their perspective around what they are experiencing to see how could they look at that differently so that they could find those growth opportunities and thus sharpen and reform that diamond to be just as beautiful and sparkling as it was, and maybe even better.
Gary S:
I've been in the communications business long enough to know when someone says something like that and there are people listening in, they want to know, how do I get in touch with the person who just said that very profound thing. So Kimberly, how can our listeners find out more about you and Crown Yourself?
Kimberly S:
It's simple. You can go to crownyourself.com. When you hop on my website, you can download my free, You Are Worthy hypnosis, which is a deep subconscious reprogramming to start working on those deeper beliefs of worthiness, enough-ness and deserving. And you can always connect with me on Instagram at kimberly.spencer. Hit me up in the DMs if you love this episode, please take a screenshot of it. I love seeing and responding and being in communication with you. And you can also join our Crown Yourself Facebook community, which is pretty straightforward. It's just search for Crown Yourself and you'll find it.
Gary S:
I found it today, in fact I joined, so.
Kimberly S:
Yay! Awesome, I love having kings as part of the community.
Gary S:
I will see more of you there. Warwick, the plane has landed, but we're still getting up and collecting our bags. So you get one more question that you can ask Kimberly.
Warwick F:
No, I mean just an observation. I love that phrase we're perfect and perfecting. Just the concept you mentioned that we can be successful and authentic. We can be successful and really not trying to be somebody else, but we can just be who we truly are. So it sounds like you're helping others both to be successful, but be comfortable in their own skins, be comfortable with who they are and not as somebody else once said, not faking fine, pretending to be somebody else. But yeah, that phrase, perfect and perfecting, that's I mean, again, I hate to use the P word again. That's very profound. So I love that concept.
Kimberly S:
I love Ps. We got power, princess, it all fits in.
Warwick F:
Well said.
Gary S:
Well, that is the sound of people getting off the plane. So thank you, Kimberly. And for listeners, I want to wrap up with three takeaways from this conversation with Kimberly Spencer that I think will help us all as we look to move beyond our crucibles. The first point would be to remember this, life will throw you curve balls. We call them crucibles here at Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible. But those curve balls cannot just be survived. They can be hit out of the park to continue the baseball metaphor. You can grow and thrive by digging into your faith and your confidence and your tribe, leaning on them. You can set a straight course to a better life, no matter how bendy the circumstances might seem at the time.
Gary S:
Point number two, succinctly put by Kimberly. BS is bad, to yourself and to others. Honesty, transparency, authenticity, lean into these things, manifest those things in all of your relationships. It may be uncomfortable to share your truth. Kimberly gave examples of that. It was very uncomfortable for her in certain times in her life, truly uncomfortable to share her truth, but she did it. Not everyone will applaud you when you do share your truth. But life on the other side of you doing that, of being authentic, of being truthful, of being who you are, life on the other side is worth well, the BS. You have to go through to get there.
Gary S:
And then the third point listener that you can take away from this is, never settled, but strive. If you feel like you've been created for more, if you like what you've done, but you want to love what you do, take it to the next level, take the leap. It takes courage to pursue your vision and passion. Kimberly downloaded kilograms of courage in our interview today. She's found joy by seeking something that helped others. You can find joy in that too. A key way to getting there, as Kimberly said toward the end of our conversation, I love this phrase. A key way to getting there to that joy is operating in your genius.
Gary S:
So listener, until the next time we're together on Beyond the Crucible, thank you for spending time with us. Thank you for digging in to learn how you can learn the lessons of your setbacks and failures and build a better life, a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. We have a favor, Warwick and I do. If you liked what you heard today with Kimberly, if you've liked what you've heard in the past on the podcast, we encourage you to hit subscribe on the app on which you're listening right now so you'll never miss another episode. We have a new one every week, every Tuesday, we'll drop a new episode. So click subscribe, you'll never be surprised when a new one comes out.
Gary S:
And remember, as we part company here that your crucible experiences are painful. They're tough. They're curve balls, but they're survivable. More than that, I'll make up a word here, they're thrivable. If you learn the lessons of your crucible, if you apply yourself to that, you bring your passion and your vision to the table, it's not the end of your story by far. In fact, it can be the beginning of a new story in your life, a new chapter in your life that can be the most rewarding of all, because it leads to a life of significance.
She baked her first batch of cookies in the California sun at age 3 — with mud as the secret ingredient. Ever since that day, Whitney Singletary-White has dreamed of being a baker, and she’s made that dream come true with her gourmet Nuttin’ Butter Cookies. She sells the exotic nut-butter confections from her driveway these days, rising above the crucible of the COVID-19 pandemic with the same kind of grit that saw her fight back from a brutal assault that almost cost her much more than her business. Her motivation through it all? Building a life of significance with her two boys.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible, I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Whitney S:
Help comes in the most unexpected places when you least expect it. At that moment when you feel that you really can't go on, there is always going to be that one person that you wouldn't expect to do it, will reach out and help you. And I find that you can't really fail if you don't keep trying because once you give up, you failed, you're done, that's over. But as long as you're like, I can still make it, you can still get that little bit in there, you can still push through just enough. It's hard, it hurts, but once you get past that moment, you can sit back and go, I made it. I overcomed that. I'm no longer feeling that pain anymore. I'm finally where I need to be. You get yourself out of it. We got to pull ourselves out of the mud sometimes.
Gary S:
Indeed, we do. And the woman who just spoke those words has had to pull herself up out of the mud more than a few times as she's pursued her dreams which began, which were birthed in her at age three. And she tells us about each struggle and most importantly about each triumph along that journey on today's episode.
Gary S:
Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. And today's guest is Whitney Singletary White, who is the founder and owner of a fabulous gourmet cookie company in California called Nuttin' Butter Cookies and you'll find out why they're called that as the episode progresses.
Gary S:
And as you'll discover as the episode progresses, nobody can explain Whitney's passion, Whitney's experiences and Whitney's triumphs better than she can with more insight and heart. So I'm going to stop trying and I'm simply going to read by way of introduction the introduction that she provided to Warwick and I for today's episode. And that is this.
Gary S:
My name is Whitney Singletary White. A California native, a newlywed with two sons, a baker with over 20 years experience, founder and owner of a specialty gourmet nut-based cookie shop located in Berkeley, California, established in March 2015.
Warwick F:
Well, Whitney it is so wonderful to have you. I just loved reading a bit about you. You've had a couple of articles and some different things in the San Francisco Bay area so it's super exciting. I have to confess, I have three kids in their 20s and they all know I definitely am a big cookie fan. So just reading about all the different varieties of cookies and every nut I think I've ever heard of, pretty impressive so. It's just so awesome. But before we get a bit into your story and some of the challenges, I'd love to hear a bit about Whitney and just who you are, how you grew up, family, just a little bit about sort of the back story of Whitney Singletary.
Whitney S:
Well, I grew up in Bakersfield, California. And if you know anything about California, Bakersfield is one of those places you want to pass right through and not live in. It's part of the fact it was always so hot. We have all the seasons, but summer is just never ending for some reason and it's just the hottest. But I loved growing up there as a child, it was peaceful, you can leave your doors unlocked, you can walk outside at night barefoot. You wouldn't do it during the day, you'd burn your feet. But it was just one of those things that that's how I grew up.
Whitney S:
I grew up with my mom, she was a single mom. Had me and my little sister and my grandpa was always hands on and my grandma she was kind of there, but she was one of those don't cross her because she'll throw a knife at somebody. I had a nice childhood. It wasn't a lot of chaos and drama and extra going on, it was just I grew up with a family that was bakers and chefs and cooks like my grandpa. He was in World War II and he used to be a cook. And he ended up getting out of the military with a purple heart and he went into business for his self being a chef.
Whitney S:
And my love for being in the kitchen was one of those things like oh, I want to try this, I want to taste this. So it was always in the mix of everybody making anything. I want to know what it is and I want to taste it first and can I help.
Warwick F:
So you really grew up in a family of chefs and bakers and I guess baking is... I know it goes back many generations, but it's literally in your blood. So talk about maybe some of the memories you have of, I don't know, baking with your mom or grandparents or was baking just part of what you did as a family and stuff?
Whitney S:
It was, it's during holiday times we used to do that. My grandpa, he's southern so he was always used to have a bowl of nuts in the shell. And they sold nuts out of the shell, but he liked the old school ones you have to work for it. He says, "It's not good unless you work for it." And I'm like, why can't you just buy them in the can? But I remember sitting around cracking nuts with him. He would take his hands and just crack walnuts. I'm like, gosh, grandpa, use a nutcracker.
Warwick F:
Yeah, who needs a nutcracker when you got grandpa?
Whitney S:
Yeah. So I remember growing up eating his mixed nuts and we would eat cookies and those are my two favorite things. I love cookies, I know. A lot of people want to hear baked goods, they're like, cakes and pies. I'm like, yeah, I can make those, but cookies are my favorite. And nuts are my favorite so naturally it's like I grew up and put them both together. It was just a no brainer, but I remember this one time when I was... I don't remember it, but I remember my mom constantly reminding me of this story when I was three years old I had wanted to play in the kitchen.
Whitney S:
And she was like no, get out of my kitchen, we're not having that. You're not suppose to make a mess with my kitchen. But she didn't say I couldn't bake. So I took all the ingredients out of the kitchen, took them outside to the front yard and I'm mixing the flour and the eggs and the butter with mud.
Gary S:
Hang on a second so that listeners heard that. You were mixing all the ingredients for cookies with what?
Whitney S:
Mud.
Gary S:
Okay, I just wanted to make sure they heard that.
Whitney S:
Yes. Mud from the front yard, right by my grandpa's rose bushes. I remember getting this mud and mixing it all together. Had a nice little bowl and I took the cookies, put them on a cookie sheet and laid them out in this Bakersfield's sun. Within minutes, the heat had cooked them. They were cooked. And my grandpa, he saw me making them. He goes, "What are you making?" I said, "I'm making cookies." And he goes, "Aw." And I said, "Would you like one?" And he says, "Oh sure, I'll try one." And my grandpa being who he was took a real bite out of the cookie and he's chewing this cookie and he says to me, "This wouldn't be so bad if it didn't have the dirt in it."
Whitney S:
And so my mom's standing to the side and she's like, "You know she put dirt in these cookies." He's like, "Yeah, it's just dirt, it's not going to hurt you." But that's the grandpa I grew up with. He was always, "Aw, you want to draw on the walls, that's okay, here's some paint. I'll fix that wall later." He was that grandpa.
Warwick F:
Sounds like an amazing guy, an amazing grandpa.
Whitney S:
He was.
Warwick F:
Did your friends say, gee, how come every grandpa can't be like yours kind of deal?
Whitney S:
Yes, everybody was like, Uncle Lee, this... he was always... his nickname was Uncle Lee because he had 18 brothers and sisters so he was an uncle to a lot of people.
Warwick F:
Okay, wow.
Whitney S:
But some of them who weren't actually his relatives would still call him Uncle Lee out of respect and he was always, "If I can help you with this, I can help you. Don't worry about it. I got you." And he was always that person. And I remember when I was little going to his barbecue restaurant that he had after school and I would be there helping him out, sweeping, and helping around and we used to joke about... because I used to like to make the baked goods. He never had dessert. He just had the meats and sides, but we never had dessert. I never understood why we never had dessert. Why is there no peach cobbler in here when everybody can make it in the family? I don't get it.
Whitney S:
And he said, "Well, one day when you get bigger, you can make all the desserts for us." And that was one of the things we had always talked about, but he end up dying before that ever happened. And so it was always something that I always wanted to do to be in that business with him. And years went by and I always have that moment and I was, "I'm going to wait until the right time and when that time comes, then I'm going to do this." And I just waited and waited and waited until the right time would come and the right time was never happening. It was always some type of something that will intervene. Then I would say, "Okay, no, not right now. No, not right now."
Whitney S:
Until I got to a point when I started the company where I would say, you know what? Today is the day. I literally woke up and said, "I no longer want to clean houses anymore," because I used to have a house cleaning company. And I said, "I no longer want to do that. That just pays the bills, it's not fun, I don't like doing it, but it pays the bills." And I said, "I want to do what I said I wanted to do almost 20 years ago." And I woke up and said, "cookies." And I went on the computer and I said, "Not just any cookies, what are people not making is what I wanted to make," because you can go anywhere to get a baked good, but what would make people come to me and just me only?
Whitney S:
And I said, "Let's see what they're not doing." And I went on the computer and I found everything that you can possibly think of and I said, "Everybody makes snickerdoodles and chocolate chip and oatmeal raisin and I said, "I don't want that." I said, "I know it was risky starting a company that didn't make any traditional cookies." And I said, "The people out there who think like I do who'll say I want to try something different, I want to go to a spot where I can have something new." For those people who can't bake and they want to be able to experience something besides a regular chocolate chip cookie is like they come here. And when I first started, I only had six nuts and from there all the way to 12 nuts now. And it's like I just found two more nuts to add to the line.
Warwick F:
Oh really?
Whitney S:
I thought I had all the nuts, I found two more.
Warwick F:
Are you able to tell us like a-
Whitney S:
Yes, the pili nut, it's a pili nut, a P-I-L-I nut. I have never heard of it, but the company that sends me stuff, where I get my nut supply from, they said, "Hey, we have these new nuts, would you be interested in trying?" And I said, "More nuts?" Sure.
Gary S:
My product line expands.
Whitney S:
I said, "Sure." I tried that nut and the pili nut has this texture like a pine nut, but a flavor like a macadamia. And so I mixed that one with butterscotch and so it just has this, what, moment to it but your mind just goes like this. People are looking for adventurous foods that are outside of the box. I'm the spot. I'm the bizarre food world of cookies.
Warwick F:
That is amazing.
Whitney S:
And then the second one is a baru nut, a B-A-R-U nut and that one I was like it looks so alien and so all nuts kind of look weird all ready, but this one just has just what is it look. And when you're eating it, it's like for me I'm like I'm eating this nut and it has this texture like a almond, but when you're tasting it it taste like a peanut. But not like a strong peanut, so I said I love stuff that's trippy like that. So that one I add a little bit of molasses to it so it's kind of like a gingersnap without the ginger.
Warwick F:
Wow, so how long has it been that you've started Nuttin' Butter, when did that start?
Whitney S:
It first started back in March of 2015.
Warwick F:
Right, right and so wow, so you had this idea for nuts and started it and-
Whitney S:
The idea of creating it was in 2014.
Warwick F:
Okay.
Whitney S:
I was stewing on it and now it's just that's the moment when I was realizing that this is what I want to do. What else do I want to do with my life besides this? Baking makes me happy. People who eat baked goods are happy. That's what I want in my life right now and then the following year was just one of those okay, I'm doing it now.
Warwick F:
So some people have ideas and they have dreams, but sadly most people, they don't do a whole lot with that. They think about it, wouldn't it be fun if, but what led you to go from hey this'll be a fun idea to I'm doing it? Because so many people don't do that. What led you to say you know what, we're going all in, let's do it? What led you to do that?
Whitney S:
I feel like sometimes you just have to jump into the deep end of the pool and figure it out. And for me, I said I can not go another day without having ever tried doing it. I know it's always something I wanted to do, can I really make a profession of it, do I really want to make a profession out of it? Do I? And I said but I'm never going to be able to answer any of these questions until I actually do it. And so I said I'm doing. Even if I fail two weeks later, I can say I did it and it just didn't work. I just couldn't live with myself because I'm a perfectionist too. So I said part of me is like I critique myself and I said, you can't say you tried everything and did everything that you wanted to do in your life and you haven't even did the thing you're passionate about yet.
Whitney S:
And so that's what made me say I need to do it. I don't care what no one thinks, I don't care how much it's going to cost me, I'm doing it.
Warwick F:
That's an amazing attitude that people could really learn from because so few people, they don't do what they're passionate about. Were there any echos of your grandfather or your mom, were any of them sort of this go for it mentality, do what you love?
Whitney S:
Yeah, my mom, she actually owns her own business since the '90s where she makes clothing accessories and afro-centric multi-cultural jewelry, ponchos, purses, et cetera. And I remember she used to do a lot of vending for festivals like jazz festivals and music festivals, food festivals. And being there as a child helping her with the sales and interacting with the customers just like that, that was fun for me. And so growing up into that and then her having her own business. And my grandpa, him being a chef and everyone all seem to have that entrepreneur vibe and even my great-great-grandmother used to have her big old giant cauldron that she used to sell mustard greens and collard greens on the side of the road when she first got freed.
Warwick F:
Wow.
Whitney S:
And that's how she made her money. That comes in the family, so being able to just jump out and just start something. Some of the family members are like, I don't know. Then it's other ones in the family, they're like, let's do it. We're kind of divided.
Warwick F:
That's an amazing business and we want to get to some of the challenges and obviously as a cookie fan I love all the fun varieties. I'm just looking at an article, almond, walnut, pecan, pistachio, hazel nut, brazil nut, pine nut, sesame seeds, wow! So that's amazing. You live in Berkeley, California, is it?
Whitney S:
Yes.
Warwick F:
And so I understand you have asthma, so you're in this apartment building and there's some people that are smoking and you said to the landlord, "Hey, you're not meant to smoke in this place, can we just not do the smoking because"... but somehow that seemed like a very reasonable request, but somehow that didn't seem to turn out so well. So tell folks what happened when you told the landlord, "I believe this whole smoking thing is not helping me."
Gary S:
And before you tell this story, Whitney, I want to just reveal one detail about your life that you told me when we talked earlier. Because it helps inform the real emotional and physical toughness you demonstrated through this process. You told me, I want to make sure I get it right. "I played hockey back in the day." That's what you told me. So that's an important context for listeners truly to hear as you tell this story of how you responded to the things that happened just from smoking going on in your building when smoking wasn't supposed to go on and the way that your neighbors treated it. You had a mental and emotional and physical toughness that allowed you to get through what you're about to tell us.
Whitney S:
Well, I can definitely say yeah, the hockey, I was a tomboy, so hockey, football, I was in there. We was boxing. I played dolls too, but I was really rough as a child. My sons are no where as rough as I was. But so moving into this property, it was one of those things where as a person who has asthma, I wanted to be in a smoke-free environment. Someone who has two young children that are a greater risk of developing it by being exposed to things, I wanted to reduce their risk.
Whitney S:
And so the place that I was living in only had one, two people sometimes smoking, which was too much for me because they was doing it right by my window. And so when I moved into this new place, I was assured that there's no smoking, they had signs that said no smoking. I went by a couple of random times and I didn't smell any smoke, I didn't see any evidence of smoke, so I'm like yes, this is a good fit. I get there and soon as the lease is signed, the whole dynamic of the building switched. It was like the people, there was no people hanging out, now there's people hanging out.
Whitney S:
There was no smoking, now they're smoking every day. What is this? I felt bamboozled, like it was a whole con. And when I get there I'm like okay, well, we have a front part of the property and a driveway, sometimes they have barbecues and get-to-gethers in the driveway, they call it their backyard. I had a backyard, that's not a backyard, that's a driveway. So when I asked for my simple request, I asked the one who was smoking by my window, "Do you mind smoking in the back," since the smoked there anyways, I didn't think it would be inconveniencing them. And I told them because the smoke is coming into my window and it's bothering me and my children, do you mind doing that?
Whitney S:
And they're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah. Sure, no worries." And then as I walked away I hear, "[laughing], we do what we want to do." I was like, oh, so that's how it's going to be in this building. Okay. So let me go ahead give the landlord the benefit of the doubt, let him know that you have a tenant that's smoking by my window. I asked them could they move, maybe you can ask them to not stand by my window because smoke travels up and I'm upstairs. Simple. And they never got in trouble, they never got any fines even though the city of Berkeley prohibits smoking in common areas and inside residential property. So it's against the law to do it, however, they continued to do it and the landlord never did anything about it.
Whitney S:
So my mind is I still to this day don't understand the point in wanting to attack me because I complained about their smoking when they never got any trouble. It's not like it was a retaliation because they lost their job or their housing or they got a fine, it was just because I was there and they thought they can do it. It was just that simple.
Warwick F:
And when they attacked you... they didn't just attack you a little bit, they really hurt you-
Whitney S:
No, they were really trying to kill me that night.
Warwick F:
Hurt you severely. What was the effects of what they did to you?
Whitney S:
Yes, just one of those moments where you're going to go check your mail and people were like, "Why were you checking your mail at night? Blaming the victim, I'm like well, during the day, they smoke and drink all day. So I don't want to go and be involved and associate with people who are against me because I tattletale on them all the time about their smoking, even though they don't get in trouble, I just complain. I said, "I will wait until they are done doing what they are doing to go check my mail." So I don't have to walk through smoke and step over people and I might bump into someone and cause problems.
Whitney S:
And so that night when I went to check my mail, thought the coast was clear, I didn't smell any smoke, I didn't hear anyone. And to have a person that in passing that would say hello to you and you will say hello back to them for that person to come over to the property, see you there and come back. They had left. They came back to the property and these are people who I then wasn't complaining about their smoke. They were neighbors next door that were friends with the one I complained about.
Warwick F:
Oh my gosh.
Whitney S:
The one that I complained about didn't even do it. He just was complaining to them that I complained about him. And so they said, "We going to get her because she's a snitch." I'm like that's not snitching, I seen movies. That's not snitching. And so a guy, he came over and he was talking to me. And I was talking to him being polite and one of my other neighbors brought up my cookies. So the whole thing was a setup. And so she's talking to me about my cookies and I'm having conversation about like, "Oh, yeah, I just finished making the pecan, la-la-la." And when we're having this conversation is when the guy grabs my hair and he pulls me holding me back in place. And the other girl comes over and she starts punching on me and I break free. And I'm like look, don't touch. That hurt, but what really? Who does this? What kind of man does that? And why he's holding me in place, I was able to break free, but then I tripped over the lip in the door, my house shoe fell off and I hit the ground.
Whitney S:
And soon as I hit the ground, they all just flooded in there, so it was like these two girls and the guy all flooded in there real quick and I'm blocking my face because I'm too pretty to get hit in the face. And this is me dodging all of this and I'm like, I don't understand why short people feel the need that they can take people who have long arms and legs because I'm tall. And so it was like they weren't doing too much damage because every time they would come in to swing at me, I would swing back at them and my arms were longer than there's so it's like, I'm doing crab walk, kick to the face. But that moment when I'm thinking here comes a guy that always likes to say hello to me, he's walking into the building and I'm thinking here he's coming to break up this fight and I can get up off the ground, but instead I see him brace his self onto the wall and hold balance his self on one foot and stomps me in the face.
Whitney S:
And when he stomped me straight in the face, my head hits the ground and then that's when they were able to get me. And I was like oh, so now I'm just getting hit and kicked and stomped and I'm like oh, I'm still trying to move, still punching back, fractured my knuckle, it was just one of those moments where it was just so much. And it took... and I was like "mom," and they attacked her and had pushed her all up against and she end up bruising up her back. It was just a while crazy thing. My children came outside the apartment, they were upstairs calling for their mom. And to hear them and then the neighbor, only decent one in the building, comes out of his house like what's going on? And he pushes everybody off of me and me being how I am, I said, "They can't see that they hurt me." I was hurt. I was really hurt.
Whitney S:
Well, I stood up like a zombie, no emotion, just no tears, I just stood up like that didn't even hurt. It was hurting and I was able to-
Warwick F:
Was it like concussion? It was pretty severe things.
Whitney S:
Yeah, it was. I didn't want them to feel that they defeated me, even though-
Warwick F:
It's so sad because you weren't doing anything to them. You were just have asthma and didn't want smoking. It's just sad how humanity can be.
Whitney S:
It is.
Gary S:
And it's important to note here, let me say this, you had already started Nuttin' Butter Cookies. You were doing it out of your house. You had a license to do that.
Whitney S:
Right.
Gary S:
So you had started the business. You were-
Whitney S:
In March.
Gary S:
Right. What you were talking about earlier, this desire, this is your passion. I don't just want to pay the bills, I want to do what's my passion. You finally get to be doing that. You finally are doing that. You've got it all set up, you're selling cookies out of your home and then this attack comes and that derails... in addition to the terrible physical toll it takes on you, it also upends your business opportunity at that moment, correct?
Whitney S:
It literally did. It's like March, all the way to April going to October is when the incident took place. So it wasn't that long in between from starting it in March to having before I can even get it going stopped. It was just a sudden stop and it was just one of those moments where I felt like can I ever get a break? When do I get a chance to have a break? This was supposed to be my moment. This was me. I got to tend to myself. I like to do that and so it was just one of those moments I was like I have a concussion now, my right hand is fractured, I can't even do anything that I want to do and I'm sitting here like what is the next stage for me?
Whitney S:
And my next stage was looking at my children and they're looking at me like, mommy, you're going to be okay. And to see their faces because at the time they were like two and three. And so it was just one of those things where they would look at me like, mommy, don't give up. That's how they looked at me. Because I guess they could feel my energy because I felt like I was defeated and I felt like what was the purpose of even doing this. All my savings that I had from my house cleaning, I had used that to get the main stuff I needed, like ingredients and stuff to get the ball going and to pay for my licensing just for it to be, ha, you're not doing none of that.
Whitney S:
And so that didn't let me down because I'm too persistently stubborn. It's just one of those moments just felt like yeah, it set me back, but I was able to during my recuperation figure out the next strategy on how to get to the next stage of where I want to be. And I said working out of the house in this particular environment wasn't working that well anyway, so I started finding out about other events and other shows that I could go and participate in. So I wouldn't have to be there, but right after the incident, a program called The Victims Compensation program that California Office For Victims were able to... them and the police department because they did a wonderful job, the police, they're so wonderful. They did everything by the book, they went a little above and beyond. One of the officers even took me to the pharmacy after I did my interview about the incident and they took all my pictures and stuff.
Whitney S:
And when I went to go pick up my prescription, he took me to Walgreens to go pick up my medicine and he drove me home. And I thought it was funny that this officer, while he was bringing me home... the one who I used to complain about, his friends, the ones who attacked me, he was peeking through his downstairs window when the officer was bringing me home. And the officer saw him and he goes, "I think I'll check your mail for you right now too." He goes, "I don't think anyone's going to mess with me while I check your mail." And he goes, "So you can check it in the daytime."
Whitney S:
So I hand this officer my key and he checks the mail for me. And he was like, "Is there anything else you need from us, just let us know. Here's my card." And he hand me his card and they were standing around like all nervous and stuff, but it was just the Berkeley Police, they really did go a little extra for making sure that this was taken care of and they did everything by the book. And it was the DA who threw me under the bus. And it's just one of those moments where it's just like how would you think a person who commits a crime in our society they have some type of punishment, but that's not the case if you're brown on brown. And when you have a district attorney that tells you, "We're going to do everything we can, we're charging this person with a felony assault and battery. And once we catch the other ones because they're hiding, they're at large, when we catch them, we're going to charge them too."
Whitney S:
I'm like, yes, I'm suffering from a concussion. I'm like yes, justice, this is how it's supposed to go. This is how it should be going. I agreed to that. They're like, he's willing to take a plea so would you be willing to do that and he's going to get five years? And I was like, five years I almost die, I consider that attempted murder, but if you guys want to call it battery and assault, okay. Five years is better than nothing, so I agreed to that. Just to find out that that person wasn't doing any jail time, he got probation, five years felony probation. What is the point of that? And then to give me a stay away order to tell me, this person's not supposed to come around you any more for X amount of yards. And you're like, okay, but then he's in front of my house and you say, this person violating that order, this and that committed another crime, why should this person who almost killed me be allowed to be free and if he does another crime, then he goes to jail? That's backwards.
Warwick F:
It's hard to understand. Yeah, it's just crazy, but what's amazing to me is life isn't fair, doesn't seem objectively the lack of punishment for what was very serious, assault and battery, attempted murder. But yet, it doesn't seem like you let that get you down. Doesn't mean you're probably angry, probably doesn't mean it's not fair, but-
Whitney S:
It fueled me.
Warwick F:
Right. It fueled you. Yeah, because some people-
Whitney S:
It did. It made me so angry that these people thought that they could do it and get away with it and then the court system was basically saying that you're getting away with it. I said, they might have gotten away with doing that, but they're not going to stop me from starting this company that I been wanting to do for years. I have control over that.
Warwick F:
And that's amazing. In the midst of all that, it's always nice when you have a good Samaritan. In this case, the local policemen that helps out so the world is full of people unfortunately that do a lot of bad things, but there is some good people, there is some good Samaritans.
Whitney S:
There are.
Warwick F:
And you saw them, which was good. So you started this I understand that at some point you moved into a storefront and expanded it?
Whitney S:
Yes.
Warwick F:
And that was a few months before COVID hit, right?
Whitney S:
Yes, it's like-
Warwick F:
Which is crazy because that was another crucible if you will. You started it, this is great and then COVID hits and that made life tough to do it out of the storefront, who's got stores in the height of COVID.
Whitney S:
Well, especially in Berkeley, in Alameda County, they said, "All restaurants, bakeries closed." You're nonessential. But the corner store is essential and the beauty salons essential, but the bakery is not, okay. I don't get it. Let's make my hair pretty, but I don't want to eat. So a lot of us restaurants and bakeries and food establishments in the bay area, we all... bars, we were all at a halt. They said, "Doors are closed until further notice." And they literally shut us down. They saw people, they were coming in like shut it down, shut it down because clearly having your restaurant open during COVID hours is one of those things where you would get infected. So we close early, I don't get it. COVID still there after 2:00, it's still there. But I remember when March had hit, it's right at that moment when they were getting ready to start shutting things down, everything was like a wave.
Whitney S:
It was just a nonstop wave that kept coming and coming because at first it was like okay, we're hearing rumors of these things end of February about it could possibly affect us. And I'm keeping track of it because I watch bio movies so I'm like this is going to get worst before it gets better. We should start preparing and my preparation wasn't for the fact of ingredients. And so my priority was making sure that my children had can goods and foods just in case the power goes out or if people get sick and the plants not working. We need to be prepared. And soon as I gave my landlord the rent, I get this phone call from my landlord nagging me about, I haven't received your rent. This is March, there's so many people right now that has no job right now because everything is shut down. And I mailed you the rent. So I could've kept that whole thing for myself and used it for whatever, but I was being honest.
Whitney S:
And I said, I know, I owe you, I'm going to give it to you. I even told him it was going to be a bit late, it was too late when he got it. I can not control the mail. I just can't. If the mail system is having a delay, that's not my problem, but he nagged me, nagged me, nagged me about, "I'm going to have to kick you out." I'm like, okay. I can't be there anyways. I'm already closed. What are you kicking me out for? And then when he finally did get the rent, he sends me an oh, I got your rent. I'm waiting for an apology, didn't get it.
Warwick F:
Crazy. From what I understand, eventually, you ended up having to move out with COVID.
Whitney S:
Right.
Warwick F:
And I believe you had a lease and you had to keep paying him even though you weren't even there.
Whitney S:
I know. And then he reaches out to me and says, "With all of the COVID going on, is there anything, anything that we can help you with during this time of crisis and hardship." And I said, I'm thinking to myself is this a joke? This is the same person who was just threatening to evict me not too long ago, but I went on with it and I said because I like to try and find good in everybody because everybody has it. Some people don't have a lot of it, but everybody has a little bit in them. So I said maybe during this time of crisis, maybe he has a reality check on how he needs to approach people. So I said, "Well, the only thing that you can really help me with is maybe I can end my lease now."
Whitney S:
Because my lease had ended in August and it was March. And so I'm sitting there and I'm like maybe we can just end it now. He goes, "No, no, no, you're under contract. You still have to pay your rent." I'm like, but you just asked me what could you do to help me and that would help me a lot. Because if you can't help me with that, what else would you help me with?
Warwick F:
So that's another crucible, you have to pay this rent to a place you aren't even there anymore because of COVID because you can't... even in that circumstance, you didn't let it get you down.
Whitney S:
No.
Warwick F:
Because then you began I think selling cookies back in your apartment and driveway. And people picking up. So talk about how you didn't let that get you down, that you found a way through. So what did you do then when you had to go back to your home?
Whitney S:
I can definitely say when I came back to being home, I wasn't selling in March, wasn't selling in April, but toward the end part, the beginning of May, I'm sitting here like if I wanted to sell in my driveway, I couldn't right now because all the stores were still shut down and they had limits where you could only buy one thing of eggs. I'm like really, I can't work a business with one thing of eggs.
Gary S:
I'm a baker, I need more than that.
Whitney S:
Exactly, I said I need at least 10 boxes of butter. No, ma'am, you're hoarding butter. I need butter for my business. I need you to make an exception. You have to talk to the manager. No, we have one transaction at a time. I gets around those things, so we just go back multiple times. But I remember at this moment where I was really feeling like defeated again. It's like I can't even sell in my driveway because I don't even have the ingredients to even make cookies. And a couple of my neighbors who reached out to me were like, "Oh we heard that you lost your shop and all this COVID, we're just checking to make sure you were doing all right. And is there's anything we can do to help you?"
Whitney S:
And I was like, "Well, right now, it's just I don't even know how I'm going to get by because I can't even make my own money right now because there's no ingredients for me." And I didn't ask anyone because I'm just used to not asking people because I hear excuses. And so I was just venting and then one neighbor took it upon herself to spread the word to everybody that they have any extra right now to gather it all up. And they came to my house and they had bags of flour, they had some eggs, and they were like here's some sugar, here's something we all collected different sticks of butter. Here so you can still be able to get by. That was so... moments where I was like wow. I didn't realize that I lived in a community where people did those things.
Whitney S:
My mom had even reached out to a couple of her friends and he goes yeah, when I go to the store, while I'm there, I'm going to see if they have any of those ingredients. So people, when they were at the different stores, they would be able to get these different ingredients for me and they were like donating me flour and they were donating me vanilla so I could still be able to make cookies. So I got the ingredients so I set back up in the driveway. Said look, I ain't got no excuses no more. I can make these products. People want my cookies, I can still make them. So I'm still here.
Warwick F:
That's a miracle. In so much turmoil and people doing I don't know reprehensible things in the world you see on the news, but it's almost like you're in the desert and you see an oasis or from a faith perspective maybe a drop of grace. And it's like, wow maybe there's a few little good folks and drops of grace there. When people do that, it's unbelievable. It's not something you ever could've imagined that neighbors were donating things. And by doing that, they enabled you to feed your family and your boys.
Whitney S:
Exactly. And being in the driveway was the money I was making to pay for my shop because once they finally started to open things back up, they still had restrictions where they said only curbside, outside business. So you still couldn't have stuff indoors. So I'm like, it doesn't make since for me to make the cookies at home then take the cookies to my shop to sell on the sidewalk when I can just sell at home like I already was doing. Because I'm the original curbside cookies.
Warwick F:
And so from what I understand, you had lots of local folks, police, firemen, talk about how some of the local officials in Berkeley somehow word has spread about your amazing cookies.
Whitney S:
Someone called and complained about me is what started it. And I find that even in that moment of negative, it turned into a positive thing because someone complained that I was selling cookies in my driveway and I had to be illegal. Who does that? Who calls the police on someone selling cookies. Someone did, but officer pulled over real quick with his hands, he popped out of his car and he had his hands on his holster like he was reaching for his gun or something and just walking over like a cowboy.
Whitney S:
And he walks over like what's going on here? I got so much signs that says I'm cookie, I don't know why he asked me that question. But he goes what's going on here? And I said, just selling cookies, raising money to this officer. He goes what kind of cookies? And I told him. They're regular nut butter cookies. He goes, well, I never heard of a cookie like that. I said because I made it up, it's my recipe. And I'm telling him on these things and he goes, well, and what about this one? And he pointed to the pistachio. It does have a slightly green hint to it, I didn't have edibles. And he goes what about this one? And I said that's pistachio and I said you can have that one if you like pistachios. And he goes, I do like pistachios, he goes and it's just a regular cookie?
Whitney S:
They're all just regular cookies. He goes, well do you have permission to be here? And I said, this is my driveway, so yes. And I said I'm not quite sure what you're asking me because is that a trick question? He goes well do you have a license for anything? I said actually I do. I'm like how many people trying to sell something in their driveway have to actually pull out their credentials to the police officer because someone called on them?
Warwick F:
Unbelievable.
Whitney S:
And so I was sitting there and yeah, I showed them my health permit, showed him my business license and I showed him everything I had. And he looked and he was satisfied with that information. And he left and he's sitting in the car. And after he eats his cookie, he comes back over. I'm like, oh, now what? What now? Leave me alone. I'm not doing anything, but selling cookies. I know it's almost nighttime, but come on. And so he comes over and it wasn't a negative thing. He comes over to shake my hand. He goes, "That was a really good cookie." He goes, "You got a customer for life." He goes, "I'm going to tell everyone I know that you got the best cookies in Berkeley." And I went, "oh well, thank you officer. Thank you, appreciate it."
Whitney S:
And that particular night, while he's sitting over there in his vehicle finishing the rest of his cookie, a guy up to no good, I saw him, I had my bat underneath the table. And this guy comes walking over like he's getting ready to do something he not supposed to be doing, but every since my incident, I'm alert to everything. And he was being weird. He was acting like he was casing me out pretty much. He was observing what was going on. And I'm like what kind of person sees the little girl selling cookies and you want to rob her? Really? There people would like that. And so I really feel that he was up to something because when he comes and he walks past me ad he walks past me again. And I have my bat, I'm ready. If he tries it, he's not going to get my money easily. We both were going to be hurt tonight, not tonight.
Whitney S:
And I remember that when he got ready to walk past, he was so focused on me, he didn't even see the cop car. And so the cop goes [woop, woop, woop] with his lights and siren and the guy takes off running. And I never saw him ever again, but the cop comes and he goes, "Are you all right?" "Yeah, I'm good." And every since that moment, the cops had relayed to other officers so when they're en route under different beats, they would pass by when they see me at night, just thumbs up. Checking to see how I'm doing. I had free security. This is nice, I got police security, hey, free security and they'll buy cookies. I remember this one night when the fire truck had pulled over. I'm thinking to myself, oh what's going on now? It's always something, can a sister get a break?
Whitney S:
And I'm sitting here and just one fireman gets out of the truck and he comes over and he says, "A cop told me that you got the best cookies in town." And I was just like... I said, okay. And he's talking to me about the cookies and I told him about all the different cookies I had. And the other fire... what do you call them, fire workers because there's fire women?
Warwick F:
True.
Gary S:
Fire person, the other fire person.
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Whitney S:
There we go, fire person. Yeah, we're going to roll with that one. But I remember, he came over and he was the guinea pig because he's the one that was the pickiest out of all of them so he tried it. And at that time before COVID I used to offer samples. And so I gave him a sample of a cookie and he waved his hands up and with a thumb and then the rest of the fire people, persons come out of the truck and they walk over to the booth. And I'm standing there like what? This is one of those moments like, really a fire truck pulled up in front to get cookies from me because a police officer told them that they were good.
Warwick F:
It's amazing. So all these crucibles and this one we haven't really even touched on. The flu shot episode where for most people the flu shot isn't a big deal and some doctors say you should get a flu shot even if you don't want to and it ends up what paralyzing your left side, hand, how many months did it take to get through the whole flu shot terrible episode?
Whitney S:
Yeah, I ended up with a severe case of bursitis in my left shoulder. And the problem is the nurse injected the flu vaccine into my bursa sac, which is way too far up in your arm to be getting the shot to begin with, but when they stuck in there, the fluids in my bursa sac were gone and the flu vaccine caused an infection. And it slightly tore a little bit of my rotator cuff while the needle went in. So it was just all wrong to begin with. I would have been better off being sick.
Warwick F:
And how long did it take you to recover from all that?
Whitney S:
It took from January to May for me to be able to use my arm again after physical therapy. It's like who has physical therapy after getting a flu shot?
Warwick F:
And for you to provide for your kids, you have to bake.
Whitney S:
Yes.
Warwick F:
So it's like you can't not bake. So here you've had everything from a flu shot to be beaten up by neighbors, all of the things that you've been through having to pay rent for a place you don't even use, COVID, and yet none of that gets you down. I think one of the things I think you said about your vision, I read somewhere you see your business as a gas station in the desert. Talk about what does that mean to your vision because it sounds like nothing gets you down despite being knocked down, you get back up and it's like you just don't let it get you down. Talk about that vision of the gas station and the desert.
Whitney S:
The vision of that is everyone seeing that one gas station, there's the tumbleweeds and snakes and there's just nothing but that. And you have that one spot right there just thriving and it's still hanging in there despite of it looking like crickets around. There's nothing going on, but they're still there and they're still standing. And you have no choice but to go to the place because it's the only one. And when I started my company, I wanted to have that. You can't go to... I made it so complicated for myself because I made all my recipes so anybody who wanted to try and copy and have a spin off of the cookies, I said, I'm going to cover all the nuts. So can't no one say, well we have almond and she doesn't. No, I got all the nuts. And so I said every nut, I got nuts you never heard of.
Whitney S:
And so I wanted to do this to make it so complicated because people copy all the time, that's just our nature. We see someone doing it, we want to try and join into it. For me, I like to one up myself, so when I do something, I go I can make it better. And then I'll go, yeah, let's make that better and I'm talking to myself like let's do that.
Warwick F:
So if we pick a summing up here and all, there's a lot of people right now going through tough times, whether it's COVID or just frankly the division within our country, within our world. It just seems like things are as bad as it's ever been in so many ways. It's just so sad, but I think there's a lot of people who been through tough times, different crucibles, what's your message of hope to people that feel like, gosh, I don't know that I can get myself back up again. This is just too much. What's your message of hope to a lot of folks who frankly are hurting right now?
Whitney S:
Well, help comes in the most unexpected places when you least expect it. At that moment when you feel that you really can't go on, there is always going to be that one person that you wouldn't expect to do it, will reach out and help you. And I find that you can't really fail if you don't keep trying because once you give up, you failed, you're done, that's over. But as long as you're like, I can still make it, you can still get that little bit in there, you can still push through just enough. It's hard, it hurts, but once you get past that moment, you can sit back and go, I made it. I overcomed that. I'm no longer feeling that pain anymore. I'm finally where I need to be. You get yourself out of it. We got to pull ourselves out of the mud sometimes.
Whitney S:
And dust off the mud, you walk through what's drying on and cracked up and their pants and flake it off and get going. It's just sometimes you just have to do it.
Gary S:
And sometimes you have to bake the mud into the cookies going back to the very first story that you told, right?
Whitney S:
Exactly. My first cookies was a mud pie.
Warwick F:
Maybe you should resurrect that, in honor of my grandfather, here's kind of the first cookies I made.
Whitney S:
I know huh.
Gary S:
This would be the time in most podcasts that I say, the captain turned on the fasten seatbelt signs and it's time to land the plane, but I'm going to say this time I think I heard the oven ding, it's time to remove the cookies. So we're getting to the point where we've got to let the cookies cool a little bit. But before we go, Whitney, I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't do a couple of things. One, in a minute here, I'm going to give you a chance to let people know where they can find Nuttin' Butter Cookies online and connect with you. But after you do that, after you let people know how they can get a hold of you, one of the things again, going back to what I said at the top of the show, this questionnaire that you filled out, one of the questions we ask people all the time is if there's only one question we could ask, what would it be?
Gary S:
And you've talked a lot about not giving up, but the question you said we should ask you is what was the reason you didn't give up? So tell people how they can find you on the internet, get a chance to taste your cookies perhaps? And then leave listeners with what was it that led to Whitney Singletary White not giving up through all of these crucibles that you've described?
Whitney S:
Well, you can find my cookies at my website of nuttinbuttercookies.com, which is N-U-T-T-I-N-B-U-T-T-E-R-C-O-O-K-I-E-S.com. It has all of my social medias and everything and all the ordering. And they ship well all through the United States.
Gary S:
All right.
Whitney S:
And but for me, that to answer your question, my sons. I remember after my flu shot, I was laying there crying to myself and he came to me and the message that I been teaching them their whole lives is we're not quitters. You have to try, you can't say I don't want to do something, try it. Try this food, try this thing. And when he came to me and he hugged me and said, "Mommy." And I said what? And he was like why you not making cookies anymore? And I told him and his reason for what he said to me was, "You can't give up mommy. We're not quitters." And the look on his face was so set on he was a coach. It's like get up, you can do it. Go. And he said this to me and his brother was like, "Yeah, mommy, you have to do it. You love cookies."
Whitney S:
And they were still my reason for why I pushed through. It doesn't matter if I'm in pain, doesn't matter if I'm tired, doesn't matter if I'm hungry. I'll hold my bladder so I can finish doing what I need to do because they got me so focused where it's like at the end goal, I want them to be able to not have to go through so much that I go through. I'll go through it all so they don't have to.
Gary S:
And you mentioned when I first reached out to you to be on the show, that this is the first podcast you've ever been on?
Whitney S:
Right.
Gary S:
So based on that answer about your sons, and hopefully they'll listen to this episode when it comes out, give your sons a shout out. Call them by name, let them hear themselves on the podcast and on the radio if you will.
Whitney S:
Yeah, well shout out to my oldest, Wesley and my youngest, Wyatt. Keep doing your work because I know downstairs playing games thinking I don't know. I know everything.
Warwick F:
Moms do. That's very true.
Gary S:
Warwick, before I wrap up, one of the things that you say all the time on the show and then just in conversations we have at Crucible Leadership is that your life of significance can be big. It can lead an international corporation or your life of significance can be small. And by small I don't mean impact and you don't mean impact, but it can be a more limited scope. And what Whitney's described right here is her life of significance, her community and her boys. Talk about why that is such a critical expression of a life of significance?
Warwick F:
Yeah, it's easy to say well who am I? I'm not leading some big corporation or nonprofit. I'm not trying to make the clean water in Africa or solve all of the huge problems we have in this world, but to me you make a difference in one life, it's big. Your mom, your grandfather, they taught you certain values. They made a difference in your life. You're making a difference in your sons' life. You're making a difference in your community with friends, neighbors, police, people in the fire department. You're having an impact everywhere and one of the things we didn't get to but I think is fascinating is this legacy of baking, it goes back I don't know maybe 150 years or so, back to I think it was your grandfather's great-grandmother, something like that.
Whitney S:
Right, yeah.
Warwick F:
Maybe it wasn't the exact recipe but that legacy of baking and I'm sure there's probably a sense of trying to help friends and family. There's a legacy that goes back a long time. And you're just making a huge impact and a huge difference in people's lives and your family. And so I think your testimony is anybody can make a difference if they don't give up and they're passionate about what they do. You're having probably I'm sure a bigger impact than you realize. So you fill people with hope. Whitney doesn't let stuff get her down, maybe I shouldn't give up either, right? Just one more day, one more step.
Whitney S:
That's what I hear all the time.
Warwick F:
It's all it take, so. I think it's an inspiring story. I think it will give a lot of people hope.
Gary S:
Absolutely and as we wrap up listeners, I want to direct you back to this spirit that you heard from Whitney in this conversation. She describes some pretty difficult things that happened to her. Pretty physically devastating, emotionally devastating things have happened to her. Go back and listen to the way she talked about them. She laughed. She had a positive attitude, she had a facing forward attitude to those kind of things.
Gary S:
And if you take nothing else away from this episode, that's one of the keys to bouncing back from your crucible. Is having a perspective like Whitney's perspective which is tomorrow can be a better day. And this isn't going to stop me, this isn't going to get me down. I'm going to end on one of the things that Whitney wrote again in her questionnaire, which is so profound in its simplicity Whitney, but you said this when we said what's one bit of advice you'd offer listeners.
Gary S:
And this would be the key takeaway from this episode, listener and that's this. These are Whitney Singetary's words. "You can't fail if you keep trying. Find a reason to push through no matter how small or big the reason and let that fuel you." I've been in the communications business long enough to know when someone's wrapped, put a bow on a package as pretty as that. I'm going to shut up, except to say this, thank you listener for spending this time with us at Beyond the Crucible. Warwick and I have a little favor to ask of you. If you enjoy what you heard here today in our interview with Whitney, please hit subscribe on the app on which you're listening to this podcast.
Gary S:
That way you'll be alerted to every new episode, you'll never miss one. You'll hear more great interviews like this, more conversations with Warwick as he talks about the principles that undergird and uphold crucible leadership. And until the next time we're together, remember this, which is so evident in this discussion we've had with Whitney and that is your crucible experiences are painful and they're difficult and they're hard. And they can come in rapid succession. It's not just when we say crucible experiences, we mean that. Many times, there are more than one. It's not experience, it's experiences and Whitney has had many of them. But they were not the end of her story.
Gary S:
They were the beginning, each one was a beginning of a new chapter in her story that pushed her, that led her to walk down a road to a life that's brighter. That's better, that is on purpose, that is focused on helping others and building something bigger than herself. So your crucible, listeners, your crucibles, they aren't the end of your story, they're the beginning of your story if you learn the lessons of them. And they can be the best chapter of your story because at the end of the day, where they lead is to a life of significance.
