Conflict and leadership frequently go hand-in-hand. Add to the mix a global pandemic that comes with stay-at-home orders, shuttered schools and remote working, and millions find themselves living day-to-day in a powder keg of anxiety and stress. How best to navigate this unprecedented confluence of circumstances to minimize its affect on your family relationships and your business’s bottom line? Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax and podcast co-host Gary Schneeberger discuss the indispensable role grace and tolerance play in not just avoiding flare-ups, but encouraging each other at a time when encouragement is more essential than ever. It all starts, they explain, with doing the same kind of self-audit that’s critical to learning the lessons of a crucible experience. Then, once you understand how your unique stressors and anxiety triggers affect you, you can take practical steps to defuse tensions with others and keep lines of communication and productivity operating smoothly. “The core of grace,” Fairfax says, “is treating other people like you’d like to be treated.”
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Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome, everyone to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the podcast and the communication’s director for Crucible Leadership. And I’m thrilled to welcome you to the latest episode of a podcast that deals in what we call crucible experiences. Crucible experiences are those moments that we go through in life that are by definition, painful, they’re failures, they’re setbacks. They’re those things that either we cause in some way, or it’s things that are visited upon us that can change the trajectory of our lives, can really knock us off our feet. And the reason that we talk about them though, is not so that we can camp out here and feel bad. We talk about them in the hopes of helping you if you’re going through the same thing, overcome those things, learn the lessons of those crucibles, and apply those lessons to a vision and a passion and a life on purpose that leads to significance.
Gary S:
This particular episode many times, we will talk and by we I mean, myself and who I’ll introduce in a minute, the host of the program Warwick Fairfax. Sometimes, most of the time we talk to guests. But today it’s going to be Warwick and I talking about some pretty big ideas, some principles that undergird what Crucible Leadership’s about. And Warwick, we do as I said, have a big picture show today for the listeners, don’t we?
Warwick F:
Absolutely Gary, I’m very much looking forward to it.
Gary S:
We are going to talk today listener about the subjects of Grace and Humility. I’m sorry, not Grace and Humility. Humility is good too, but we’re going to talk about Grace and Tolerance. And both of those do require humility on our parts, but our focus is going to be on grace and tolerance as the antidotes to anxiety and stress.
Gary S:
Right now as we’re recording this, anxiety and stress are perhaps more prevalent in memory for many of us who are hearing these words, because we are in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic as we’re recording this. So certainly, that’s one of the reasons why we’re wanting to address this topic, but stressful times, which can lead to stressful reactions occur every day and have occurred long before COVID-19 and will occur long after COVID-19. And our hope here in having this discussion is to give you some tips and some insights into how to manage those stressful times in ways that manifest grace, in ways that manifest tolerance, so that we can overcome anxiety and stress.
Gary S:
Warwick, this is a pretty big subject, where do we begin in having this discussion?
Warwick F:
Well, I think a good place to begin is just the situation we are in right now because it provides a good case study really, with the challenges of dealing with stress right now with the coronavirus and most of us around the world are being asked by relevant authorities federal, state, local to shelter-in-place, to minimize the amount of times we’re going outside, wear marks if you go to the grocery store. And we’re in a situation where we’re working from home, some of us have been furloughed or laid off. Some have young kids at home, maybe adult kids, we actually have our three adult kids at home with us. One of them has got two weeks to go before he finishes his senior year and another one’s working from home and another’s about to go to grad school. So everything is happening.
Warwick F:
Just this last week, a couple days the internet went out, which it’s like if you got kids studying for exams, and everything it’s like that’s sort of a disaster. I have my own home-based business and there’s all sorts of things that causes stress both from a health perspective, from an economic perspective. And in times of stress, we’re often not at our best.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Sometimes we’re at our worst, unfortunately. And that can manifest itself in getting a bit stir crazy and wanting to get out but not get too near people, and wondering what’s going to happen with our job and health. And as we get stressed, we often get a little frayed at the edges, we can be a little temperamental, and when we’re under stress being humans, unfortunately, we then can take it out on people who we’re around, which it will be for many of us our family, maybe for some it might be roommates, whoever it is.
Warwick F:
And you have a bunch of people in close quarters for weeks now and who knows how many more weeks more. Things can happen and that’s really where these times of stress and frayed reactions and feelings and emotions, it’s where we most need grace and tolerance. So we’re talking specifically about the impact of the coronavirus on stress. But there’s a broader context where you might be at work, maybe your company’s being merged with another company, maybe you get laid off. There’s all sorts of things that happen in our lives that increase stress, it’s part of being human. So the question is, when that happens, how do you try and mitigate and lessen the challenges of stress, which tends to make you lash out and react in very intolerant ways, very ungraceful ways. Often on those we love or those we work with. So that’s the challenge.
Gary S:
And that’s a very good explanation and a framework, some breadcrumbs of what we’re going to talk about and it’s important to note, a couple things I think about grace and tolerance. One, Warwick and I have been talking about this. One I think, is that this is not a magic potion to get … The things that we’re going to talk about here, having and exhibiting and extending grace and tolerance to each other is not. If I were Muhammad Ali, I would say, “It’s not a pill you take. It is a commitment you make.” It’s not overnight. It’s not something that happens necessarily even easily. It takes work. And we’ll go through how that plays out. But the other thing I think it’s important to talk about at the outset here, is that the reason why we’re talking about this, stress in and of itself can be difficult on relationships, but it can degrade relationships if you take things out on each other, your stress and anxiety.
Gary S:
And in the workplace, it can degrade productivity. So what we’re really trying to do in giving you these tips, is to give you ways to avoid that degradation of productivity and relationship to move beyond that in a way that will allow you to manage your stress, manage your anxiety, and also not just manage your relationships but continue to have your relationships thrive.
Gary S:
And Warwick, before we move on. I wanted to share with the listeners, we’re both subscribers to Harvard Business Review, you for better reasons than I am because you graduated from Harvard Business School. But I find their insights fascinating and every day they send a Management Tip of the Day. And a couple days ago, here’s the Management Tip of the Day, it’s just a couple of paragraphs that they sent about this very subject in the workplace specifically, but that is after all, what Crucible Leadership talks about life in the workplace.
Gary S:
But this is what Harvard Business Review their leadership Tip of the Day of a couple days ago from this recording. When you’re under constant stress, it’s not always easy to be patient and understanding with your co-workers, add in or your family members. But being judgmental doesn’t help anyone. How can you find and demonstrate empathy for your colleagues when you’re emotionally depleted? First, accept that we’re all coping with this coronavirus crisis differently. For example, you may find it helpful to pay close attention to the news, while other colleagues may prefer to limit the amount of information that they take in. Also, be generous in your interpretations of others when they send a terse email or look grumpy on a video call. It’s more than likely that their mood has nothing to do with you, or work.
Gary S:
Do your part by being honest about what you’re feeling at the moment and clearly communicating your needs. And remember that your co-workers and your family members are likely suffering in ways that you don’t necessarily understand. Don’t try to compare suffering. Here’s the payoff here. Instead, lean into compassion, empathy and kindness. That, to me seems like a pretty good formula for grace and tolerance, doesn’t it?
Warwick F:
Oh, absolutely. It’s in times of stress in particular, that we want to, in a sense, amp up our levels of grace, compassion and tolerance to others. I like what you said earlier about, it’s basically a decision it’s not a pill you take, it’s really grace and tolerance or a choice. When you’re under stress, if you just go into autopilot, what tends to happen is you react, the slightest little thing, it’s almost like you’re dry kindling, you’re just waiting for a spark. Some family member, it’s often worse with family members because the more we care about, the more they can set us off. It’s just sadly, human nature. But even at work, you’re just waiting to snap, you’re ready to go, ready for bear and boom, let’s go.
Warwick F:
And that’s where you got to make a choice to say, “Okay, you understand that,” but you’ve got to dial it back a bit before you react. And that’s where some of these tips that we’ll get to in a moment, I think are helpful. But it really starts out with recognizing when you’re under stress, you will tend to react both at home and at work. And you’ve got to make a choice to go down a path of dealing with it. And certainly a big part of that is having compassion, giving somebody the benefit of the doubt. And even if you know that was a bit on called for, that snarky comment that they make in your meeting and something they thought was humorous. Other people might have laughed at it, but you’re not laughing because it’s at your expense. And rather than just, okay, fine payback time. I’ll wait for my opportunity in the meeting. And I’ll think of some other witty retort. It’s like yeah, just let it go.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Is it really worth, amping up the battle of snarky comments and payback? It’s silly. It really starts with making a choice.
Gary S:
It is giving the other person, you said it, the benefit of the doubt. Webster’s Dictionary defines this, I’m a word guy so that means I string a lot of words together, sometimes more than I should. Webster’s Dictionary defines it very concisely. Webster’s defines grace as courteous goodwill. Very simple explanation. And the thing about it is to truly exhibit and extend grace to another person. It doesn’t matter if they deserve it. In fact, many times they’re not going to, in your mind deserve it, you extend it anyway.
Gary S:
I’ve heard it said Warwick, on the subject of forgiveness. And these are similar concepts forgiveness and grace, that the idea of forgiveness is taking the sin of another on yourself. Someone does something to you, and you just don’t make them pay for it. You pay for it on their behalf so that the relationship can continue. Similar sort of thing applies in grace. You don’t have to have someone ask for forgiveness. You don’t have to have someone say, “Oops, I messed up,” to extend grace. In fact, many times, that’s not going to happen. It’s a decision, like you said, it’s a choice to extend to them. This courteous goodwill as Webster’s calls it.
Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely Gary. It’s very well said. As people of faith, we often think of grace in a more religious or biblical context where, literally, from a biblical perspective, it’s more, Christ, death on the cross for mistakes, sins, if you will. And so from a spiritual perspective, Grace means unmerited favor. It’s doing something to somebody that they don’t deserve. And looking at it more broadly, we’re not extending them grace and forgiving them if you will, because they necessarily deserve it. It’s because it’s the right thing to do because it’s funny and I will talk more about tolerance. But I think in our culture, everybody wants people to be tolerant of them, like be tolerant of me, okay? I don’t care if I’m tolerant to you, you should be tolerant.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
You should be forgiving, you should be understanding. Well, that’s fine, but it’s not nearly enough. We need to focus as much frankly, we need to focus more on being tolerant of other people, of being forgiving of other people, of showing them grace. And you’re right, forgiveness is a whole other subject. I think we’ve talked a little bit about this before. But yes, there’s time and places where something happens that may be particularly egregious or offensive and you will feel like you need to bring something up not in a big meeting, typically one-on-one and say, “Hey,” calmly, “What you did hurt me or offended me or I didn’t really appreciate that.” And they might say, “Oh, gosh. I’m sorry.”
Warwick F:
Unfortunately, because people are pretty human. And more times than not, they’ll say, “Well, sorry, you felt that way. I don’t see it myself and it’s your problem. Why can’t you take a little ribbing or a little whatever?” And okay, you tried, but not everything needs a pitched battle of, let’s have a big meeting. And you got to forgive me and I’ve got to forgive you or whatever it is.
Warwick F:
So often, showing grace is irrespective of whether they apologize and sometimes they will, sometimes they won’t. Sometimes you’ll feel called to ask, sometimes you won’t. If you want others to show grace to you and tolerance, you have to be prepared to do it to them. That’s just the way it works.
Gary S:
Absolutely. And since you brought up tolerance, and I love to look in the dictionary, I looked up the Webster’s definition of tolerance, which is a little bit longer than its definition of grace, but it’s also just a very good way of looking at what tolerance truly is. Here’s what Webster’s dictionary says tolerance is. Sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices, differing from or conflicting with one’s own. Now that, there’s no way to have commerce and by that social commerce with any people who you work with, who you live with, who you’re friends with. There’s no way to have social commerce, social interaction with people, where you’re not going to have different ideas, different beliefs, different practices that bump into each other.
Gary S:
And what tolerance addresses is this idea that you can have sympathy for, and indulgence for those things. You don’t have to necessarily change your view, or change their view, but you can have respect for, sympathy for, indulgence for those beliefs and that with a health dose of grace as well, allows us to move on in the relationship in healthy ways.
Warwick F:
Yeah, it’s so true. I feel like we live in an age of particular intolerance to pretty much anything, whether it’s other people’s religions, culture, race, background, politics. We live in an age in which we tend to think my view is right. And the other view is not only wrong, it’s abhorrent. It’s almost evil. So there’s my view, that’s good. And there’s other people’s views that are evil. It’s taking intolerance in a sense to the ultimate extreme.
Warwick F:
And as you well said, you don’t necessarily have. Take politics, you don’t have to necessarily agree with somebody else’s political perspective. But you should respect their right to have it and the fact that you believe in your view, and that’s great. But it doesn’t mean because they believe differently than you whether it’s about politics, or faith. You should be tolerant and understanding and believe that they have every right to believe what they do.
Warwick F:
And I think one of the keys to tolerance is trying to have empathy, the more you understand somebody, the less chance that you will be intolerant. Part of and this would be a whole other discussion, part of where bigotry arises is crass, maybe willful ignorance of somebody else’s culture, somebody else’s race. It’s all these stereotypes you put on. The more you try and understand somebody’s culture that may be very different than yours, and respect that. In fact, while understanding probably, helps with respecting, if you really try and empathize, that helps tolerance but you just have to make a decision that believe in your views strongly. That’s great, but be tolerant and willing to understand other people and don’t assume other people’s motives are evil just because they’re views are different. They just might have a different perspective on the world.
Warwick F:
It’s a very alien concept in our world, which is, understand me but I don’t want to understand you because you’re wrong or evil.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
That’s the age we live in, which is a whole other discussion, but very sad.
Gary S:
Right. And here listener, is where we’re going to turn the corner a little bit. We’ve talked in theory, and in some example of what the dangers of how damaging a lack of grace, a lack of tolerance can be. We’ve talked about why they’re important to manifest so that we don’t in the aftermath of our crucibles, or in the midst of our crucibles, that’s often when this comes up, right? If we’re talking about stressful times, lead to stressful reactions that can be in the midst of a crucible. That is often in the midst of a crucible. And if we don’t manifest grace and tolerance in those moments, that’s when we degrade our relationships. That’s when we degrade the productivity in our workplaces.
Gary S:
So in Crucible Leadership, what we’re about is to help you move beyond the crucible as this podcast is called. So let’s now Warwick, talk about some concrete action steps that listeners can take, if they find themselves, okay, I buy it. I buy it that grace and tolerance are important. How do I do it? How do I get there? What are some steps people can take?
Warwick F:
I think the first step is really the internal. We need to do an internal audit. We need to understand or first recognize that we are under stress, that we’re anxious, and that we’re fraying at the edges and snapping at other people. And one of the things that I find helpful is to understand why. Sometimes I’m stressed, or I’m snappy, and it’s like, “Okay, why is that?” Sometimes I think talking to others can help, which we’ll talk about in a moment.
Warwick F:
The first step is recognize that you’re under stress, and try and understand why. Often it won’t be rocket science. If you’re at home, it may be, I’ve got a bunch of young kids and they’re running around, and I’m trying to do Zoom calls, and I’m trying to work and I can’t think. They asked me to help with homework, which at a young age is not too bad once they get into high school, I can’t remember calculus and what is this? They’re asking me to help and I don’t know. I send my kids to school. Why should I have to do all this stuff? You just get grumpy or maybe you got laid off, which would be totally understandable to be under stress. How am I going to put food on the table? And especially in the time we’re in, it’s often doesn’t a psychologist to help us figure out okay, why are we under stress? What are our triggers? What are those things? So the first step is really do an internal audit and understand that.
Gary S:
And I think right there, and the idea of doing an internal audit, I love that because it’s very similar to the overall Crucible Leadership idea of to come out of your crucible, learn from your crucible, understand your crucible, do an internal audit to process your crucible. So in the same way, do an internal audit to process that stress and anxiety so that you can begin the march toward grace and tolerance.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And really another tip that follows from that is, admit your fears and anxieties to others, or those you live with. Some people are better at doing it than others. There are some men perhaps in particular that believe that we’re islands and suck it up and don’t admit weakness and what have you which is stupid, really. But because chances are those that you love that you live with, or roommates, wherever it is. They’re under stress too and saying, “I’m having a bad day, I’m anxious about, I watch the news and maybe I watched too much, and what’s going to happen will my company close?”
Warwick F:
Maybe all sorts of things, but just admitting your fears helps, because one of the things that does is if you have a loved one who’s admitted to you that they’re fearful and anxious. Miraculously, it’s easy to show them grace and tolerance, because now you understand why they’re snapping. And it’s easier to forgive and understand. It works both ways.
Warwick F:
There’s some strange thing as you admit your fears and anxieties. In some strange way it can actually be calming in a sense because there’s somebody in it with you, you got a community that you can talk about it with each other. So ideally before you snap and we’re human, we’re going to snap sometimes.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Before you snap, how about actually admitting your fears and anxieties, before it happens. You’ll get more grace and tolerance and you might avoid snapping, which will make your loved ones or roommates very thankful if you snap less.
Gary S:
Absolutely. And one of the blessings that I have found in the shelter-in-place period that we’re in as we’re recording this podcast, my wife and I are both working from home. And one of the things that we’ve been able to do when that stress and anxiety hits either one of us is able to take the time to do exactly what you just said. Admit our fears and anxiety to each other in real time. Whereas if we’re both at the office, that’s a lot harder to do. You got to pick up the phone, you got to call. Are you going to get them? No, we can walk into each other’s office areas that we have at home, and we can share those experiences and defuse them.
Gary S:
Just the other day, it worked where we just went for a walk. We went outside, we walked the dog, it took 15 minutes. And what was a very anxious moment, what was a very stressful moment, just all went away and we had a meaningful conversation over those 15 minutes, we had a few laughs over those 15 minutes and the rest of both of our days, improved markedly just by taking that time. So it’s yes, shelter-in-place, working in the same house can lead to stress but what you just said about admit your fears and anxieties, there’s great opportunity in the situation where you are sheltering in place to do that in real time for each other. And it’s a huge, huge way to not degrade relationships, for sure.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And so, after you’ve done the internal audit, and admit your fears and anxieties to those you love that you live with or your roommates, that sets a good foundation really for the next tip or next step, which is to be flexible. If ever there was a time for flexibility, it’s right now as I mentioned before. Working from home, Zoom calls, what have you when you have all sorts of distraction and kids or roommates doing stuff, it’s not easy. You might be used to your commute, pick up coffee on the way to work. Maybe your favorite coffee shop at lunch, we have certain rhythms.
Warwick F:
I think a lot of people, they love their rhythms. That’s certainly me, I like my rhythms. And when it comes to my way of doing things being changed, I find that challenging. When I can’t do what I’m used to doing, I think a lot of people are like that we recognize that the routines being changed, that we’ll call stress. Add that to the fears and anxieties and it’s like, boy, I love going to work and chatting with my buddies or people there or going to the gym. Won’t be able to do that for a while. They’re just routines or exercise class, whatever it is. There are routines that we really enjoy and they’ve been totally upended. Who knows when we’ll be able to go to a restaurant again or wherever it is. So, recognize it is stressful, but it’s important to be flexible and to say, “Okay, this is not easy, but he’s talking to me forever.” And just give yourself a bit of grace in a sense.
Gary S:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s got to start with you, it’s got to start with being able to understand that again, not just in a pandemic, but in work situations that can cause stress and anxiety, to be flexible to, “roll with the punches.” To understand that not everybody has the same rhythms to use your word Warwick, not everybody has the same rhythms as you do. And you have to work with other people.
Gary S:
And back to what I was saying earlier, when you’re doing social commerce or you’re working together, you’re going to bump into each other. It’s bumper cars to some extent, right like in the carnival that’s going to happen, so how do you not knock each other off the roads? You have grace and tolerance. If you bump into each other, you recognize that people have different ways of doing things. And you look for the patch of grass, that common ground that you can find, and you manifest your flexibility and that can help you really move down the road to what we’re talking about here.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Really after flexibility, that we began to talk about, it’s really tied to that too. Grace starts at home. Grace starts with yourself. Obviously, you got to show grace to others. Many of us and certainly I would be included in this are often our harshest critic. It’s like, why did that irritate me? I realized with shelter-at-home it’ll pass one of these days. Why do I keep getting frustrated? The smartest thing when you snap is immediately if you do it because we’re human we’re going to do it, is to apologize and say, “I’m sorry. That was a bit uncalled for.” If you can’t do it immediately, do it the next hour, the next day. Whenever it is, trust me, people will appreciate it. Even if they don’t ask you that. They will appreciate somebody. It’s a beautiful thing when you apologize and nobody’s even asked you to apologize. That’s the ideal form of apology.
Gary S:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
But have grace with yourself realize it’s a tense time and we are going to snap a bit and stuff will happen. It is related to something else we talked about an earlier podcast is, obviously, we have to do some of the things to reduce stress. Whether it’s prayer and meditation, taking a walk, listening to music, various tips we’ve mentioned earlier. There are ways that we can reduce stress, but ultimately, even if we do all those things, we still snap, and we still need grace. So yeah, grace begins at home. That’s the first step of grace anyway.
Gary S:
Yeah, and it’s again, similar to the overall Crucible Leadership idea that you have to understand yourself. If you’ve had a crucible experience, you have to forgive yourself for your failure, you have to learn the lessons of that, you have to find a way to move beyond whatever it is in your crucible experience that you lay on yourself in order to then understand how you were refined by your crucible experience, understand how you are designed and what your vision can be. And then to turn that vision into reality. All of that whole step, what we call the refinement cycle in Crucible Leadership begins with self-analysis and having grace and having tolerance for other people in times of crisis and anxiety, starts with having grace for yourself.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And if you can have grace for yourself and forgive yourself for snapping, that I think makes it a little easier in some ways to have grace and tolerance for others. Recognize your own failings. Recognize the log in your own eyes, so to speak. You want other people to have grace with you. Well, similar to tolerance, we need to have grace with others, we need to be understanding. Those we love, we know what their hot buttons are, we know what they’re fearful of. So when they snap at something, it’s like, “Okay, I get it.” They may be fearful about providing for the family or fearful about the kids or fearful about an aged parent that they’re not able to visit or a cousin. There’s all sorts of things that we can be stressed about. And so, understanding what that is in others, also helps showing grace.
Warwick F:
It reminds me of something that we have spoken of is this saying, “Treat other people the way you would like to be treated”, which is the so-called golden rule that happens to be the words of Jesus but the concept none the less whether you’re a person of faith or not. That’s really the key. The core of grace is treat other people the way you want to be treated. That’s huge. Showing grace to others will help reduce … there can be a cycle of stress and antagonism. And the more that we show grace to each other, the more that we can break the cycle of antagonism, which left to its own devices can get pretty ugly.
Gary S:
Right. Hopefully, you heard that point listener. The idea of having grace with others breaks the cycle of anxiety, fear, tension and then somebody says this or somebody butts heads here or to go back to my analogy about bumper cars, you stop really bumping into each other at high velocity when one of you raises their hand first and in basketball lingo says, “I’ll take the foul.” Right? When one of you says I will extend grace to you even though you don’t “deserve it,” I will extend grace to you because we both deserve it in the sense of having our relationship restored.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I love that bumper car image you use Gary because, with bumper cars at least they have some rubber edge around them. But-
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
… let’s imagine you’ve got two cars coming at each other. These days, even a minor fender bender costs thousands of dollars, it’s unbelievable. But if both of you are going 50, 60 miles an hour head on collision, that’s what a total of 100 miles an hour at impact or something, massive damage will be done. And so what tends to happen is the cycle of reaction without grace and tolerance, it can build up and you can say something or do something that not only will you regret, it could take days, or maybe even months to undo. You can say sorry, but you can’t take it back. Words can really hurt.
Warwick F:
And so you don’t want to have a major car accident that cost the equivalent of thousands and thousands and weeks or more to heal. That’s why the easiest thing is avoid the big train wreck, avoid the big car wreck, get out of the cycle of antagonism because you say something that’s really unkind. Even if you say sorry, the words are out there, especially with those we love, they really damage to the core. You just don’t want to even get to DEFCON 5, whatever it is, you just want to stay out of the nuclear war zone. It’s not worth it.
Gary S:
And I was going to save this toward the end. But since you just talked about the destructive power of words, in that conflict cycle, I have a quote that I dug up about grace from Elie Wiesel, the concentration camp survivor and author. And this is so powerful to me, but it’s about the power of words as grace, words extended in grace and this is what he said. Listen to the power of this. “Words can sometimes in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds.” Words themselves can attain the quality of deeds. Kind words, in times of stress and conflict and anxiety can be just as powerful as acts of kindness, as things that we do to help each other that are tangible. Our words can take flesh, if you will, and they can lead to true healing as if we performed an act of kindness for someone. That to me, from someone who’s been through what he’s been through is an extremely powerful endorsement of how words uttered in grace, have great impact.
Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely Gary. That is very profound. Words of grace can have a profound impact. Just I think as we’ve said before, we may be physically distant, but we’re not necessarily don’t have to be socially distant. And so just calling a friend and maybe you have an elderly parent or elderly friend, maybe there’s somebody that’s shut in with, cancer and they have preexisting condition and all, and they’re at the most risk of coronavirus. People already, health has been compromised. Just calling to say, “Hey, how are you? How are you doing?” Just listening and maybe taking their minds off what they’re going through. And maybe it’s talking about sports or whatever it is that nobody can watch anymore, but maybe recalling some favorite baseball game you went to and wasn’t that fun and whatever it is. Those are conversations of grace. Words of grace that can be healing and can definitely reduce stress. And I think that is so profound.
Gary S:
Yeah, and the idea too that, when we’re in conflict and stress, and we’ve done things, we snapped at our wives or we snapped at a co-worker we’ve not, as the Harvard Business Review story talked about where we’re grumpy on a video call. When we’ve done those things we tend, most of us if we’re honest deep down in our hearts, we know that we were a bit off base, we know we’ve done it. And for someone to offer you a word of grace as you’re dealing with that guilt or that shame, or that, “Oh, geez, I shouldn’t have done that.” When someone offers and extends you unmerited favor, unmerited courteous goodwill. That is an act in and of itself, because it releases you from the bondage you feel for having lost your cool.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I think that’s true. When we do those things extend grace, it definitely reduces stress, increases tolerance and just as a harsh word can generate a forest fire so the word of grace can be just like cool, refreshing water that just lowers the temperature. Both are power. One’s far more productive, and the other is far more destructive.
Gary S:
Right? There’s one more tip Warwick that is a summary tip that you had. And all of these things listener by the way, if you go to crucibleleadership.com. Warwick’s got a blog there where he discusses this very topic about how grace and tolerance are the antidote to anxiety and stress. But the last point in that blog, let’s share that with the listeners now.
Warwick F:
Yeah, the last tip was, it’s helpful to channel your energy in productive ways. One of the things we talked about having grace and understanding for each other reduces stress. But rather than being fixated on, “When am I going to get out of my house? When am I going to get to work?” Try and channel it in productive ways. Maybe there are some business plans you can work on, maybe something that you didn’t have a chance to do and so focus on that, if it’s your business, when things open up, how you take it to the next level? Even if you’ve been laid off. Okay, well, maybe I’d been on this treadmill for a while. Am in the ideal career track? Maybe there’s another career track I could pursue. Use that time, both from a work perspective and a home perspective.
Warwick F:
I know Gary, you’ve shared that you’ve got kids at home, high school, and you’ve been able to use that time to have some fun family time. You came up with some creative ideas, I think that maybe you and your wife wouldn’t have necessarily had time to.
Gary S:
Right. We were going to take a traditional spring break vacation. And we live in Wisconsin and we were going to go to Minneapolis and we were going to visit some friends there, some family there. So we had two tickets bought and the Airbnb all lined up, and then the shutdown hit and we couldn’t go. We had a couple of choices, right? It was stressful and it was anxiety filled. And we could have just said, “Oh, dang it,” and buried our heads in the sand like some people do in crucible experiences. And we decided, “Okay, let’s do a shelter-in-place, Spring Break vacation with the kids. And let’s take advantage of this time.”
Gary S:
To your point Warwick, about channeling your energy in a productive way. So we had themed days throughout how much of that vacation we were going to take. One day it was game day, where we played a bunch of board games of different stripes. I have to say this for the record, I won at Monopoly so I was very happy with that day. But we had a movie night one day, we cooked dinners. And since then, since even that spring break at home, we have established a routine where we every week we set a schedule where one of us there’s four of us, myself, my wife, and my two stepchildren, we each cook dinner one night. We pick whatever we want to cook, we make it and the one who’s either not a parent or not a kid who’s not cooking is the one who has to do the dishes that night too. So we found ways to build relationship, to show grace for each other, to find constructive and productive things to do to build harmony, which is the exact opposite of conflict and stress.
Warwick F:
Yeah, the beauty about playing games together, which we did recently too. I’ve three adult kids in their ’20s and they’re all with us at the moment. It produces fun and laughter. And yeah, it’s a way of actually bringing people together where normally, we’re running off to activities, whether it’s high school sports or work, or friends or whatever else we’re all doing, and so we’re spending far more time. So that’s really trying to turn a negative into a positive. And how can I use this time at home productively both from a professional work perspective, but also a family perspective?
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Try to write make a challenge an opportunity. That’s also part of the Crucible Leadership way of thinking. Channel crucibles into opportunities.
Gary S:
Right. One of the other definitions, it’s not Webster’s definition, but one definition that we could hang on grace and tolerance is turning negative situations into positive situations. You don’t need grace for someone if a situation is wholly positive. If there’s a negative aspect to it, that’s where grace needs to manifest itself. That’s where tolerance needs to manifest itself. So your words Warwick, about turning negatives into positives is a great definition for what grace and tolerance are all about.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Grace and tolerance, they help build relationships. Unmerited favor is by most people is greatly appreciated. Doing things for a neighbor, doing unplanned for things with family, coworkers, calling somebody up, having a video call. A neighbor called me up a couple days ago and no agenda other than, “Hey Warwick. How are you doing?”
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
I said, “Wow! That was cool.” There’s opportunities to actually build relationships, as you say, to make a positive out of the negative in these stressful times.
Gary S:
Yeah. So we’ve talked listener, so far about the theory, the 30,000 foot level over what grace and tolerance are and why they’re important to extend to each other, what the drawbacks are of not doing that. Warwick’s walked us through some excellent tips about how we can find and offer grace and tolerance to each other. And Warwick, as we get to the point where I like to say it’s time to begin to land the plane. It would be worthwhile, I think, to discuss with listeners. Why do we do this? At the end of the day, what are the benefits? We’ve both received grace in myriad ways from myriad people. What does it feel like? What is the benefit to being a recipient of grace? Why is it worth this effort? Why is it worth the decision? It’s not a pill you take. It’s a commitment you make. Why is it worth that commitment?
Warwick F:
I keep coming back to just, we live in this world of such judgmentalism such intolerance. Everybody thinks they’re right. I think everybody else is either wrong or evil. And this is really before the coronavirus hit. So there’s an opportunity here as we’re all stressed out, and we’re talking about showing grace and tolerance to each other. If when we get out of this coronavirus pandemic that we’re in, if we were actually able to live in a world where people would make a choice, make a commitment to try to show grace and tolerance to people who are different than them. Maybe it’s different religion, race, political party. Not assuming that anybody that’s different than you, or believes differently than you are evil.
Warwick F:
If just like a spark and light off a wildfire and devastate a forest, maybe a few sparks of grace and tolerance as those of us who make a commitment and a choice to do that with others, that can also spread. And maybe people can see some examples of once in a while, you’ll see maybe two politicians, Republican, Democrat, left, right. And they say, “We pretty much disagree on every issue you can possibly think of, we pretty much never ever vote. But he or she is my friend. He or she is my buddy and I love and I respect them, even though we pretty much never agree on a thing.” Those are role models of grace and tolerance, those are models where they might disagree, but they don’t impugn the other person’s character or motives.
Warwick F:
You can have good motives and good character, and believe differently on certain issues. So that’s why the more we do this, the more hopefully our world become a little less intolerant and a little bit more tolerant and a little bit more full of grace. And who of us wouldn’t want to live in a world that was more full of grace and tolerance? Isn’t that more fun? Isn’t that less stressful a world to live in? That is within our power, if we would just start and those ripples can then become greater and greater and maybe the ripples will grow into maybe tidal wave is a bit optimistic but a bigger wave perhaps, that would be a wonderful goal. A wonderful dream, maybe a wonderful ideal to strive for.
Gary S:
Absolutely. And it’s true I think, that you really don’t have a chance to move beyond a crucible, title and podcast, if you don’t have grace for yourself, if you don’t receive grace from others, and if you don’t extend grace to others, is that a fair statement?
Warwick F:
Absolutely, no question.
Gary S:
Well, we have reached that time in our podcast, where the landing gear is down. My seatbelt is fasted, so we’re ready to land the plane. Let me leave you listener with some takeaways I think that came from this discussion that Warwick and I have had today. The first one would be that grace and tolerance are not pills you take but decisions you make. Why do you make those decisions so as not to degrade relationships and professional productivity? How do we do it? How to We make those decisions and those commitments? Well, as I read at the top of the show as Harvard Business Review says, “We do that by leaning into compassion, empathy and kindness.” That’s takeaway number one.
Gary S:
Takeaway number two is the same about grace and tolerance as it is about Crucible Leadership, about bouncing back from your crucible. And that is do a self-audit. Why are you feeling like you’re feeling? Is it fair that you’re feeling this way? Is it fair to others? Are there other perspectives that may be more true, that may offer more insight for you on your journey? Like bouncing back from your crucible, the journey starts with self-reflection. From there, you can build a life of grace and tolerance just like from there in your crucible experience and bouncing back from that, you can build a life of significance after doing some self-reflection.
Gary S:
And then the last thing I think listener, we want to leave you with is check out Warwick’s blog on crucibleleadership.com where he unpacks some of the tips, all the tips that we talked about here today and I’m going to run through them. After doing an internal audit, here are five other things that you can do that are listed and unpacked in the blog. Admit your fears and anxieties to others, be flexible, have grace with yourself, have grace with others, and channel your energy in some productive ways.
Gary S:
Thank you listener for spending time with us today on Beyond the Crucible. As always, we appreciate the opportunity to offer what we hope is hope and healing through your own experience in not just what’s going on right now with COVID-19. But what’s going on in those crucibles in your life that you have gone through or maybe going through right now.
Gary S:
We have a little favor to ask of you, on the podcast app that you’re listening to this show on right now. We would ask If you click Subscribe, that does a couple of things for us. It allows us to reach more people with these kinds of conversations and also the interviews that we do with people like yourself who’ve been through crucibles, and people who have perspectives on how to help you get beyond those crucibles. It also will ensure for you that you won’t miss any episodes that we have in the future.
Gary S:
So until we’re together next time, thank you again for being with us. And remember this, that crucible experiences are very real and very painful. They can be very full of stress, full of anxiety, they can knock you off balance, but they are not. We hope you’ve learned in listening to our podcasts and in following Warwick on Crucible Leadership. Crucible experiences aren’t the end of your story. They are in fact, if you dig in, if you self-reflect, as we’ve talked about today, they can be the start of a new chapter in your story. And that chapter can be the most rewarding of your life because what it points toward, what it leads to, is something we all should pursue and that is a life of significance.
For 11 harrowing years, Ed Kressy descended deeper and deeper into the madness of methamphetamine addiction. From believing the FBI was trying to pin the 9/11 attacks on him, to not bathing or brushing his teeth for months, to considering himself married to the voices in his head that tormented his thoughts, his grip on reality slipped away a little more each day. It was a far cry from the life he had known, he tells Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax: a college education, a good job, home ownership in San Francisco. But then the alcohol he turned to in his teens to feel like “there was something I was good at” finally caught up to him, fueling his hellish cycle of helplessness and hopelessness. It was only after actually getting arrested by the FBI that he found his way back through the combined power of spirituality, self-improvement and service. Today, he gives back to his community by volunteering with the police and California jails and prisons — truly significant work that has, ironically, earned him a community service award from the FBI he once so feared. “Being a value to others,” he says, “was ultimately serving my own dreams.”
To learn more about Ed Kressy, including information on his book My Addiction & Recovery: Just Because You’re Done with Drugs, Doesn’t Mean Drugs Are Done with You, visit www.edkressy.com
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everyone to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the podcast and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. And you have clicked play, subscribe, listened to a podcast that deals in what can be a difficult subject; in crucible experiences. Those painful moments in life, failures, setbacks, those things that kind of knock us off our feet, derail us, change the trajectory of our lives. But the reason that we talk about them is because it’s extremely important. We interview guests and we talk about these experiences in order to offer hope to folks maybe like you who are listening who are going through those experiences now. So we don’t want to camp out here, we don’t want to wallow in those moments. We want to learn from those moments, we want to leverage those moments so that we can begin the path of bouncing back from those moments and leading a life of significance.
Gary S:
Here with me as always is the founder of Crucible Leadership and the host of the podcast, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, we’ve got a good one today.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Great to be here Gary.
Gary S:
So our good one today, our guest today is Ed Kressy. And I’m going to tell all of you a little bit about Ed. I’ve got to say before I read Ed’s bio that we always ask guests to submit biographies to us that I can read on air. Ed’s has the best lead, the best beginning I’ve ever had someone to submit to us. And as a former journalist I like to think I know a little bit about leads. Here’s the Ed Kressy story in a few sentences.
Gary S:
Ed Kressy is probably the only person who was once arrested by the FBI then went on to turn his life around and receive a community service award from the director of the FBI. He transformed his life from drug addiction, mental illness, and criminal activity to follow a path of spirituality, self-improvement, and service to others. Ed volunteers in maximum security prisons and jails, helping incarcerated men and women gain skills for empowerment, entrepreneurism, and self-advocacy. Ed volunteers for law enforcement, helping the San Francisco Police Department and FBI better serve communities affected by incarceration and addiction. He’s achieved his lifelong dream of becoming a writer by publishing work in The Washington Post, the San Francisco Chronicle, and Vox. His book, My Addiction & Recovery: Just Because You’re Done With Drugs Doesn’t Mean Drugs are Done With You is being published in April of 2020. Ed, welcome to Beyond the Crucible.
Ed K:
Thank you Gary, thank you Warwick. It’s great to be here.
Warwick F:
Well Ed, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. You have just some amazing experiences. I’d love to start with just your story and how that led up to your crucible. But just tell us a bit about Ed Kressy and your background and kind of who you are, how you grew up, and how that led to some of the challenging experiences you had.
Ed K:
Sure. I grew up with a lot of opportunities, a lot of privileges. My childhood was idyllic in many ways. I grew up in the beautiful countryside of Massachusetts. When I got into junior high and high school, what had happened was I was just kind of a different kid. I was very uncoordinated, I couldn’t play sports or compete in gym class. I loved to read. I would come home from the library with these big stacks of books because I always liked to escape into the world of fantasy more so than I could feel comfortable in the reality of the world around me.
Ed K:
I was very sensitive, I would cry quite easily. So where I went to high school, reading, crying, being uncoordinated, not exactly a campaign platform upon which one might run for class president.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I get that.
Ed K:
So I’ll tell you Warwick, one of the very first things I felt good at was drinking. When I started to learn how to drink around 14 years old, progressing into very heavy drinking when I was 16, I began to feel like I have a talent. I have a skill. I have some way I can feel like I’m an effective part of the world around me. The only other thing in my life up until then which had made me feel like that was writing. When I would write my stories or assignments in English class back in grade school, sometimes the teachers would call me up to the front of the room to read my assignments. These are some of the first times I felt like I was good at something. The kids who would bully me during recess would sometimes come up to me after I’d read one of my stories aloud and tell me that they liked it, clap me on the shoulder.
Warwick F:
Wow, that is quite the dichotomy. They bully you and then say, “Hey Ed that was a really great story.” And part of you seeks affirmation through drinking because I’m assuming when you drank, I was pretty shy in school and not particularly athletic so I can at least relate at some level. But when you drink it makes you less shy, less inhibited, and probably you felt accepted. Hey boy, Ed’s really quite something when he drinks, right? He’s quite the personality. And so those are two very different things get affirmation, drinking and writing. It’s an amazing dichotomy as you look back.
Ed K:
Absolutely. The one thing that for people to understand about alcoholism and drug addiction as I’ve learned is that drinking and drugs usually are not our problem. They are our attempt at a solution. And as you alluded to, Warwick, my problem of not fitting in, my problem of feeling that I couldn’t find acceptance within my peer group, that was something I solved through drinking and through getting high. My dream of being a writer, that was something I could push to the side because writing, as we know, Gary you especially, writing takes discipline. Writing takes perseverance. Writing takes being able to fail and get back up again. I didn’t have the self-confidence and the belief in myself to do any of that. But drinking and getting high gave me the illusions, the false beliefs in myself. Drinking, getting high, just like you said Warwick, made me feel like I was somebody. Made me feel like I could contribute to the world around me. These are the reasons I pursued a lifestyle of heavy drinking and deep, devastating addiction to drugs for so many years. They solved the problem basically of me being me.
Gary S:
I’m going to jump in at this point and normally listeners you know that Warwick is the chief questioner here and that’s not going to change in this episode. But Ed and I share more than just being writers, people who grew up to be writers. Ed, I also have an alcoholic background. And when I hear you say, “Fitting in, found something you were good at,” I was quote unquote popular, whatever that means in those ages, athletic and those kind of things. But it was a sense of camaraderie that I could build with people when those kinds of things happen. And I say that to you to say hey brother we have affinity there but also for the listener. There are people regardless of what their crucibles may be and what they struggle with and how they deal with that. But your definition of an addiction, it’s the symptom, whatever that might be. Drugs, alcohol, other forms of distraction from what it is you can most productively be putting your time toward, that’s a symptom. The disease, the addiction is what that underlying root is, that problem is. Why you do what you do.
Gary S:
One of the most insightful things I learned at Alcoholics Anonymous was, it’s not how much you drink that makes you an alcoholic, it’s why you drink. And for me, why I drank was to change the way I felt. And I’m certain there are listeners right now, alcoholism might not be your problem, it may be drug addiction. Those kinds of things may not be your problem but there is something in your core perhaps about how you feel about yourself as Ed described, as I’ve described. There’s something in the core about how you feel about yourself that you feel you need to change.
Gary S:
And sometimes in doing that it can be unhealthy. Sometimes in doing that, Warwick you have experienced this in some way by trying to be good enough to take over the family business, even though that wasn’t necessarily your vision. You didn’t necessarily feel like that was where you were supposed to go. So I think all of us who had crucibles have a bit of that in us, that idea that if we behave in this way or if we change our behavior in this way or if we try this thing, that’s going to put us in a better position. And sometimes it can actually, instead of putting water on the fire that is our crucible, it can add gasoline to that fire. Is that fair, Warwick?
Warwick F:
Yeah, I think what you’re saying Gary is profoundly true. We all want to fit in, self-worth. I’ve had my own struggles but they were different. I can relate to what Ed’s saying in the sense that I was very shy, went to a kind of exclusive boys school, but I wasn’t very athletic. Because my family was so wealthy, prominent status, owning a huge media company, I was far different than the other boys and so… I didn’t get bullied a lot, but some, one or two. And some would taunt me saying, “Oh Warwick, you think you’re better than us,” just because my family had a bunch of money and my dad had some cars, one of which was a Aston Martin that was almost identical to the one that James drove in Goldfinger, funnily enough. But that’s another story. That was kind of cool. And I would say, “No, I don’t.” I worked very hard and got good grades and so I don’t know maybe that’s, I don’t know quite how I cope with it all but that sense of not belonging, not feeling accepted, I can absolutely relate.
Warwick F:
So we’re understanding a bit of the why behind some of the really challenging circumstances that happened later. I’m just fascinated by the dichotomy between writing and drinking. Writing you can fail, drinking, I almost wonder can you fail at that? You just drink and will have the desired effect. I don’t know, I guess failing and not failing maybe don’t think about it that way. But maybe did it feel easier than writing, in a sense? I don’t know if that question makes sense Ed.
Ed K:
It makes perfect sense. It did feel easier. Addiction, Warwick and Gary, was beautifully put what you were saying. Addiction usually serves a purpose. The purpose is oftentimes to push us along pathways we otherwise would’ve never undertaken. That’s eventually when we get to living a life of significance and we get beyond our crucible moment, usually we can look back and see our addiction as driving us towards a goal we otherwise never would’ve pushed ourselves towards.
Ed K:
The other part of addiction is, it’s a way of avoiding going after our dreams. I’ve always felt that for the addicts and the alcoholics, certainly the way I was and maybe many others, it’s a matter of adopting goals versus pursuing dreams. For many people goals and dreams are the same thing. A woman’s dream is to be a business owner so her goal is to own a business. A man’s dream is to be a marathoner so his goal is to run a marathon. A goal is something we want to achieve, a dream is someone we want to be. For many people they’re very closely related. For me, and of many other addicts, the dream is to feel normal.
Warwick F:
Right.
Ed K:
The dream is to feel accepted. The dream is to be a writer, the dream is to just feel comfortable in my own skin. No business ownership, no home, no athletic pursuit is ever going to make that dream happen. So instead we pursue these goals. For me I earned a college degree, I owned a home, I had a carer with an organization that went on to be named the number one best company in America to work for by Fortune Magazine. I pursued and I achieved these goals, but they were essentially meaningless because they never were going to get me to my dream of feeling normal, feeling Warwick like you said, like I belong. And they weren’t going to get me to my dream of being a writer.
Warwick F:
And I want to talk a little bit about that next phase of your life, college and working for one of the most admired companies in America. But I almost have this picture of you in a desert and you see an oasis, but it turns out to be a mirage. You get there and it’s not there. So no matter how much you succeed, the nice home, the nice cars, it’s like that in of itself doesn’t necessarily make you feel good about yourself. And so you keep assuming this mirage. When you get there it’s like, “I thought I was there but it just vanished right into thin air.” But you feel like okay it’s over the next sand dune. Do you follow what I’m saying? It feels illusory, that you keep pursuing something you can never attain it by just drinking or success. Do you feel that, that you’re constantly pursuing something but never getting there in a sense?
Ed K:
The oasis, yes, that’s a wonderful image. It’s a condition of comfort versus happiness. As human beings we’re hard wired not to be happy but to be comfortable. Or to put it in another way, to be safe.
Ed K:
Comfort and happiness are not the same thing. For me I could be very comfortable in that world of addiction as I abandon more and more of those goals and sank deeper towards my crucible moment, as I sunk into psychosis and threw away my home, my life savings, my career much more to addiction. I remained comfortable. I knew I could survive as a drug addict from one day to another. I knew I could survive. I’d done it for years, for decades. However, pursuing my dream, becoming a writer, I did not have the belief in myself that I could survive going after my dream. I feared failure but even more so I feared success. Instead of going after that dream which would’ve been very uncomfortable, I stayed in that unhappy yet comfortable world of addiction.
Warwick F:
So last thing before we get to your crucible moment. It’s fascinating you use that phrase fearing success. There’s a woman by the name Marianne Williamson who spent a lot of time in the coaching world and I’m sure it’s on YouTube somewhere. She has this great book, I think it’s Return to Love. And she’s spiritual in that broad sense of the word. She has this wonderful phrase that our deepest fear is success. Our deepest fear that we will be successful beyond measure. I can’t do it justice, but that’s exactly what she talks about.
Warwick F:
So let’s talk about the crucible moment because you graduated college and you’re doing very well. You achieved a lot considering like a lot of us growing up your self-worth wasn’t that high, which is interesting. But talk about the success, the job, the cars. So where were you just before things all went downhill so to speak?
Ed K:
Sure, on the surface I had a lot. I had a lot of help. I came from a relatively privileged background so my college education was paid for and my down payment on my home was paid for. I worked hard and I got to a point where I had that career, I owned that home, I was competing in kickboxing as an amateur. I was never very good at kickboxing but I would get in the gym and I would train a lot. And on the surface I did have a lot of trappings of success. Yet I had been a drug addict all along. I would binge use on weekends. I followed this path for years.
Ed K:
It was like my life became like a seesaw. On one side was the home and the career and the relationships and the beautiful motorcycle I used to ride. On the other side was my addiction, my binge using every weekend. One can maintain a seesaw like that for some time. I maintained it for years, but eventually something’s got to give.
Ed K:
For me, in 2000, the seesaw kind of plunged onto the one side. I began using methamphetamine every day. I graduated from snorting meth to smoking it. That’s when the psychosis began to set in. I started to hear disembodied voices claiming to be from the police department and the FBI threatening to kidnap and torture me to death. I believed they were trying to pin 9/11 on me, that they were hiring cults and motorcycle gangs to come and kill me. I would rip apart my electronics and punch holes in my dry wall looking for hidden surveillance devices. I would see airplanes and helicopters following me, pictures of myself in newspapers and on the internet. This was my life for years and years. I used to carry a .357 pistol everywhere I went because I was afraid of people coming after me. I’d come to in the mornings with a 12 gauge shotgun on my chest. That’s where I’d fallen asleep or passed out the night before waiting for gangsters to kick down my door.
Ed K:
It gets worse and worse. Eventually I got to a point in 2007 after bouncing in and out of jails. I was stripped naked and locked into a padded cell for 24 hour observation by the Sheriff’s Department. I bounced in and out of rehabs, destitution, I had long since thrown away my life savings. I was nowhere near employable. Living in this little flop house hotel. Hadn’t showered or brushed my teeth in months. Given away my beloved dog, the only creature left really that I felt cared about me or I felt that I was able to extend love to. I’d given my dog away. It was just terrible. My physical surroundings were very bad and my mindset was much worse. I was a drain on my communities, I was stealing from welfare. I used to get food stamps and go buy steaks and then trade the steaks to my drug dealer for meth.
Ed K:
Warwick and Gary I could go on and on and on. I think your listeners get a sense of my poor decisions, my poor choices, my mistakes led me to a point where my only three options were basically to get locked up, to get covered up, like six feet of earth covered up, or to get sobered up. I could’ve maybe gone in to long term homelessness and avoided some of that, but basically I was at the end of the road.
Warwick F:
So I’m assuming at that point your self-worth was, I don’t know, rock bottom probably doesn’t do it justice. It’s probably lower than rock bottom, but did you ever think of hurting yourself, suicide, or the best thing for humanity would be for Ed Kressy not to be around? Did you ever get to that kind of point?
Ed K:
Ironically, when I did get to that point and I stayed there for years, the worst of it was after I got clean. Because like we were saying, drugs are usually not our problem, drugs are our attempt at a solution. And so listeners, that’s one reason why it’s often so hard for an addicted person like me to quit drugs. Because when we quit now we have no more solution. After I got clean I had nothing left to tamp down that negativity I felt towards myself and which I projected onto the world around me. So Warwick, the answer to your question is yes, I was suicidally depressed, yet ironically the worst of it came after I got clean off the meth.
Warwick F:
Wow, because that sort of medicated the pain. So it sounds like just sort of on the street, in a flop house, you lose your house, car. I mean, dog, that’s got to be as bad as anything that you lost, because you loved the dog and the dog loved you. That probably felt worse than losing the house. So you’re in this terrible place. How in the world did you begin to make that hard decision to try to move beyond that? And I’m fascinated when you said it got worse as you got sober. How did you even begin to think why change? A lot of people don’t change. I’m assuming you know much more than I do, but to just continue in that addicted lifestyle for the rest of their lives. How did you make a choice to go a different path?
Ed K:
I got to a point, there was one night where… The only clothes I owned basically was this filthy tuxedo because I worked at the strip clubs and got fired. And I would wander around the city of San Francisco at night in this filthy tux. I found myself in a fancy hotel lingering outside a ballroom where a wedding reception was taking place thinking I’m going to go in and blend in wearing my tuxedo. As I stood at the doorway to that wedding reception in that hotel ballroom, I realized that in the past few years five couples had gotten married, 10 of my closest friends. One of them had asked me to be the best man. Warwick, do you know how many of those weddings I had shown up to? Yeah, zero. Not one. 10 of my closest friends married, I didn’t attend a single wedding.
Ed K:
More than that, for years I’d been hearing these disembodied voices, and I considered them my spouses. I had gotten so attached to this life of the disembodied voices and the FBI conspiracies that I believed I was married to these voices. Something inside me clicked. The wheels turned. I realized Warwick, I was certainly never going to become a writer. I was never going to be able to contribute to relationships. I was not going to be an effective part of the world around me. I didn’t know what a life of significance was at the time. I wouldn’t have been able to use those words or explain what they meant, but something inside me realized it was either a life of significance or no life whatsoever.
Ed K:
It was that moment somewhere deep inside me I found the strength to do the very, very hard work that continues to this day of turning my life around, pursuing that path of significance, and bringing something to the world around me rather than taking and taking and taking. Which had been what I was all about for many years.
Gary S:
I want to pause here for just a moment for the listener and rewind sort of the last seven or eight minutes that we’ve heard Ed talking. Ed, your story is fantastic in the sense of not great but it’s a big story. It’s a story with a lot of elements that many of us, even those of us who have addictive pasts, have not experienced. And I want to make sure the listeners hear that story and think there’s no relevance to you and your own crucible experience. Because the point we’re at now, what Ed just said, that he had two choices. He could live in his crucible as out sized as that crucible was, as hard as it maybe some of us to understand it, he could live in that crucible or he could learn lessons from it. He could move beyond it and point himself towards significance. That is what all of us face in the crucible experiences in our life.
Gary S:
So you, listener, as you’re hearing these words, please don’t be lulled into thinking that Ed’s story doesn’t have relevance to you because the experiences of your crucible aren’t the same as his. The emotions of your crucible, not feeling worthy, feeling like there’s no hope at times, feeling like how am I going to get out, feeling like you can’t overcome it, you’ll never be able to bounce back from it. Those emotions that Ed described, those are universal. Those are things that apply to your situation, your failure, your setback, every bit as much as they apply to Ed’s. And as we continue this conversation, as Ed talks now and Warwick and Ed talk about the further bounce back and then the true life of significance that Ed’s found, remember that those emotions are universal to all of us who had crucible experiences.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, very well said. Pretty much every human struggles with self-worth if they’re honest. And how do you overcome that? That’s so true. So, Ed you’re in this low point and I’m sensing that you had a choice, which was to either continue the lifestyle that was so destructive of yourself and relationships. I mean missing weddings of 10 close friends, that’s obviously going to not do your self-esteem any good. It tends to increase the sense of self-loathing and self-hatred, if you will. But I’m sensing this concept of significance, this concept of serving others that something in there was pretty key to begin as baby steps of trying to get beyond just this addictive lifestyle that you were facing. Does that make sense Ed? There’s something about significance that was part of the key to pulling you out of that. Is that true?
Ed K:
If I was going to pursue my dream I was going to need self-confidence. I was going to need to believe in myself. Becoming a writer, that was maybe a little bit too big of a jump for me to take right away, especially with my self-confidence. And Gary, as you put it so well, my sense of hopelessness, my feeling that nobody understood me, my beliefs that the world was just not going to cooperate with my achieving my dreams, all those feelings. In order to overcome them, I took the smaller steps of serving my communities. I became a volunteer, first responder through the fire department. I worked for a political campaign for a guy who became a close friend and was really about improving his neighborhoods and quality of life to the people around him. I would volunteer everywhere I could. I would go to the SCPA and collect donations outside a Macy’s window at Christmas time or around holiday times.
Ed K:
I began to find these ways to serve my communities. They were kind of smaller ways. I could bite off little chunks, I could become a volunteer for a few hours. Even if I couldn’t make that big leap to becoming a writer, this was a little pathway that I could take. I didn’t realize it at the time. Looking back I see that being of value to others, giving my time in order to serve others, that was ultimately serving my own dreams, which hopefully as I continue my writing career will actually serve others more and more. That was the pathway.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I think another really important thing for listeners to hear and just more generally about Ed’s path is it’s often baby steps. It’s really the path to getting beyond just this feeling of self-worth. While my background is very different I can relate on one level that as listeners know, when growing up in this 150 year old large family media business. I was a person of faith founded by a strong person of faith. So when that two billion dollar takeover kind of went bust and bankrupt and I felt responsible for losing 150 year old family legacy and my sense of self-worth was at rock bottom, there weren’t too many jobs for out of work media moguls. Moved back to the US where my wife is from, it was grim. I just felt like anything that I would touch I’m just going to mess up.
Warwick F:
But I remember I guess had done financial analysis years ago after Oxford and before Harvard Business School on Wall Street. So I knew I could do analysis. And I went to some temp agency and took some Excel spreadsheet test and I guess I must’ve been pretty good. So I got some part time job at some local sports company. It was actually Head Sports as in Head racket and skis at the time had a place in Maryland. And so for a few months they needed help doing their budgeting and I could do spreadsheets. Just tell me what you want and I could do something. Well it was a small little baby step as well. I actually accomplished something and didn’t screw it up, wow.
Warwick F:
So for me it wasn’t initially service to others. And from then I got financial analysis, business analysis for a aviation services firm. And little bit by little bit and then the analogy for what Ed’s going through. So part of my what I call almost drops of grace, if you will, gosh there’s something I can do and contribute. From there I got into coaching and on two nonprofit boards, a Christian school board that my kids went to, an Elder at my church, and obviously the volunteer things aren’t paid but it’s like gosh. I have a strategic mindset. I can help with strategic planning and governance. There’s something I can do and contribute, even with coaching, which didn’t pay a whole lot at the time. Somehow I can help others a little bit by little bit.
Warwick F:
Again our backgrounds probably couldn’t be more different, but my self-esteem was pretty low. Little bit by little bit there were things I could do that contribute and serve others that gradually was almost like building a mountain or building a wall. Brick by brick my self-esteem would bounce back a bit. Does that resonate with you, that little bit by little bit your self-esteem might get, I don’t know, one percent better than the day before as you were volunteering and helping all these folks?
Ed K:
Yes, absolutely. The work is very hard to do to live a life of significance. In order to do the hard work we need inspiration. So when we serve others and we can see how others are overcoming their own obstacles. Oftentimes that gives us that inspiration to do that hard work to overcome our obstacles. That’s definitely how it was for me.
Warwick F:
So talk about the next chapter in your story. You mentioned before, okay you made a decision that you were going to try to tackle addiction. You’re doing things to help others, volunteering in your community. But you said it almost got worse when the numbing effect of addiction wasn’t there. How did you keep going and do the hard yards? What was the motivation to get through what almost, I don’t know if it was worse, but I thought really hard. How’d you get through that?
Ed K:
It got very hard when I discovered was just because you’re done with drugs doesn’t mean drugs are done with you. I mentioned the suicidal depression. I continued to experience psychosis, extreme paranoia around the FBI and the police department. What really got me through most of all was spirituality. I came to understand that there is according to how I choose to believe things, there is a spiritual presence, a God, a universe, a great spirit, whatever the proper name is. I don’t completely understand that spiritual presence but I believe in the existence of this spiritual presence and the constant pursuit of spiritual understanding, the constant pursuit of spiritual meaning in life. That was what started as a flimsy little reed that I could cling to to start dragging myself out of that dark psychosis and suicidal depression. The more I pursued a path of spirituality, the more I started to define what it meant for me, the more incredible, amazing people inspired me, persons of faith based background, persons of spiritual background.
Ed K:
The one thing that really resonates, or one of the things that most resonates with me is that the spiritual is the non material. So when we think of what is spirituality? One definition I like to use is that if it’s non material then we might consider it spiritual. So, significance, a life of significance. Absolutely, to me that is something that falls under my definition of the spiritual. This is my path.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So when you think of the spiritual, I know for me and my faith based perspective, I believe that God loves us just because we’re all children of God kind of thing. And we don’t have to achieve things. It’s a love that doesn’t depend on us doing anything. Does your spiritual framework, does it give you a sense that you don’t have to achieve things for the world, for the universe to believe you have value?
Ed K:
Yeah, I believe this life is one stage in a vast journey. And what we do in this life somehow will affect what that next stage of the journey will look like. I’m a part of a faith based community myself. I’m part of a Christian community. It’s a wonderful community. I’ve found that by learning from these members in my community, by learning from the persons with backgrounds in Zen, in Buddhism, persons of Muslim faith, that all the ideas, all the wisdom that’s passed along by so many incredibly people hopefully has planted some small seed of wisdom within me that will continue to grow as-
Warwick F:
And so as you were meeting people in different spiritual communities, did you feel that they accepted you for who you were, warts and all kind of thing?
Ed K:
Absolutely. People believed in me when I couldn’t believe in myself. People saw value in me that I didn’t see in myself. The more good I put forth the more I served others, the more I tried to give to the world around me, the more the world gave back in the form of these incredible people who just kept coming into my life.
Warwick F:
And that’s something very important for the listeners to know because to get beyond crucible experiences, whether it’s addiction or what have you, yes I think spirituality both Ed and I can agree can be a big help. But also friends that know who we are, that realize the mistakes we’ve made, but they love and care for us anyway. And that unconditional love, that is sort of like rocket fuel. People that really know you and they love you anyway, it’s like really, if they now everything how in the world can they still want to be around me and be my friends? You might not have understood it at the time, but you appreciated it. And so that probably also through spirituality and some friends who love you unconditionally, those probably were a big help I’m guessing in going through those hard early years. Is that fair?
Ed K:
Addiction and mental illness that I found is overcoming the stigma.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Ed K:
Yeah, the symptoms of the schizophrenia like condition that I had when I was on meth and it persisted in some form or another, even to this day at times. The symptoms themselves, at least after I quit meth, they never bothered me nearly as much as the fact I tried to hide them. I tried to conceal a big part of myself. So Warwick, yeah, the friends I had, the people in my life, the way they accepted me warts and all, that was such a big part of me being able to express myself, to overcome stigmas, and get into the learnings from that crucible experience into the benefits. And I’d just love to add, of all the help I received, people in law enforcement ironically gave me some of the most meaningful help. Of all the people out there I’m so grateful to the FBI, the police department, protectors in general, firefighters, persons in the military. Along with faith based communities and spiritual practitioners and many others. People in law enforcement really had a belief in me, gave me second chances. And as a result, I’m able to give something back to my communities.
Warwick F:
Now talk about that because I know you went from a point being paranoid that the FBI’s out to get you to receiving an award from the director of the FBI. Obviously that’s amazing but there’s some irony in that. So talk about how that happened and what that felt like.
Ed K:
Yeah, well I was terrified of the FBI. Years after I quit meth I still believed the FBI was trying to pin 9/11 on me. I believed I had inadvertently befriended a 9/11 hijacker when I was kickboxing in Bangkok in 2000. I had all these beliefs and basically it was terror. A lot of fear, a lot of terror. I learned through these amazing people I mentioned, I learned that I would need to face my fears. If I was ever going to pursue my dream, if I was ever going to live that true life of significance, it’s like the writer Joseph Campbell says, “In the cave you fear to enter lies the treasure you seek.”
Ed K:
Or Nelson Mandela, “Courage is not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it.” For me, there was so much fear and I learned I was going to have to face it. Basically I get to meet some people who are FBI agents. I made it known to them that I wanted to serve the FBI as I had served the fire department when I’d been a volunteer first responder. From there I was nominated to this selective FBI Citizens Academy where basically they take people and they put us through a six week one night a week course on how the FBI fulfills its mission of protecting Americans.
Ed K:
Along the way I discovered that the FBI, I didn’t really know this, but they do have a strong interest in serving communities, or what I should say is they have a strong interest in further serving communities who are affected by incarceration and addiction. I’m so grateful to the FBI because they allowed me to not only have a second chance but to contribute my particular unique strengths and insights into their work. And this is how I ultimately wound up in Washington D.C. in May of 2019 shaking hands with the director of the FBI. I was one of 57 Americans to be honored with this community service award. Warwick, 12 years ago the Ed Kressy that would’ve been in an FBI office would’ve been a lot different circumstances. I wouldn’t have been shaking hands with the director, I’ll tell you that.
Ed K:
So just speak so highly to the FBI, to the police department, to the fire department. All these wonderful spiritual practitioners and individuals and faith based communities that when a second chance is extended, yes it benefits the receiver me, but a second chance can also benefit the giver, society just as much if not more so.
Warwick F:
And what’s sort of stunning to me here is that one would hope, a spiritual community’s definitely not perfect, but in their better moments you would hope that they would reach out and accept you. But you found love and acceptance from law enforcement. You think law enforcement are all about convicting people, putting people away. But they kind of gave you a second chance. They knew your record so to speak or the things that you struggle with but yet they accepted you and welcomed you anyway. Talk about how that felt? Because that’s an amazing story that I think most of us don’t really think about, that law enforcement accepting us and almost wanting to give us a second chance. Talk about that and how that felt.
Ed K:
Yeah, absolutely. By no means do I intend a blanket endorsement of law enforcement. I don’t mean to endorse everything that law enforcement does or has ever done.
Warwick F:
Sure.
Ed K:
But what I can say with complete confidence is that there are individuals within places like the FBI and the police department who just like you say Warwick, who are truly dedicated to protecting, to serving individuals such as myself who are committed to giving chances for life’s turnarounds. I found that there are organizations and then there are people within those organizations. And they’re often two different things. When we can form these bridges of trust, when we can focus on what we have in common, what are our common interests, and pretty much those interests are going to relate to making society better and making things safer and better quality of life for everyone.
Ed K:
When we can focus on these things, they tend to expand. In life whatever we focus on tends to expand. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t things wrong. It doesn’t mean that we need to fix what’s wrong with our society, because there is a lot wrong. At the same what I’ve learned is let’s also really focus on what’s right. Let’s focus on these FBI police formerly incarcerated and currently incarcerated individuals. Let’s focus on these human beings who are bettering themselves, who are bettering their communities, who are serving others. Because when we focus on the work that these individuals are doing, that work is going to expand. And that goodness and those benefits are going to extend throughout society.
Warwick F:
Right. And as you are extended grace, forgiveness, you want to extend that to others, to people that have been incarcerated and help them get beyond it because you would know better than I, where they call it recidivism, if that’s the right word, if people going back to jail and committing crimes can be higher than we would like. And just trying to help stop that cycle. So talk a bit about your life of significance now. You use that phrase the cave that we fear to go in. I guess two different questions. What’s your life significance now, and for Ed Kressy what is that cave that you fear to go in?
Ed K:
Well, first the significance in addition to serving law enforcement, I volunteer inside maximum security prisons and in jails coaching as Gary was saying earlier, coaching incarcerated men and women on employment, entrepreneurism, and self advocacy. As obvious as it sounds to say, I’ve discovered that if my birth circumstances had been the same as the women and men I work with behind prison and jail bars, I would’ve been on the other side. These women and men have taught me very powerful lessons.
Ed K:
To get to the other point, the fear is really in just being honest and expressing myself. Honesty not so much as opposed to being dishonest, but really overcoming that stigma. Being forthcoming about the mental health challenges that I have faced. Being forthcoming about the fact I don’t consider myself mentally ill as mentally enhanced. You hear about people who viewed reality in different ways yet have served their societies incredibly well. Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, the list goes on and on. So the fear is in just being honest, overcoming stigmas, and in doing so bringing more and more value to the world around me in some small way like so many incredible people have brought value to my life.
Warwick F:
I think that’s so true. You mentioned Abraham Lincoln. He suffered from what they called at the time melancholy. That was the word that they used. I don’t know that we know quite what that means, but he did suffer bouts of depression, of just feeling low, in the blues. What does that mean? I don’t know, but it means something. There was something that he struggled with, but yet obviously he was able to, despite that, contribute. It didn’t stop him contributing to the country and the Emancipation Proclamation and so many other things. So that’s important for the listener to know.
Warwick F:
You served so many people in so many communities and just the sense that people accept you for who you are. Because we all have made our mistakes. Some are more public than others. And just saying it’s okay. You try to atone as best you can. You try to avoid making the same mistake. But we’re all human and just that sense of accepting that it’s okay to be broken. Is there any person on the planet who’s not broken in some fashion? I’ve not met them. Some are better at hiding it than others. Some people’s failures are less obvious than others, but we’re all broken in some ways. It’s just part of being a human. Does that make sense? If you realize as you talk to other people and got to know them, how many perfect people have you met that have never struggled, never had divorce, never made mistakes. Have you met too many of these perfect people in your travels?
Ed K:
Well one of the most inspiring books I’ve read, and first of all I should say by no means do I mean to compare myself to Dr. Martin Luther King or Abraham Lincoln.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Ed K:
These people are inspiring. But Nelson Mandela, I’ve read his book twice, Long Walk to Freedom. I think he fits well into the mold of a human being who like the rest of us is flawed, or was flawed, yet he perseveres nonetheless and you can look at the wonderful things, the amazing things he’s done for the world and his spirit continues to do.
Gary S:
We have arrived at that point in the show when it’s time to drop the landing gear and begin to land the plane. But as we ease into that Ed, there’s something that you’ve written several times as we’ve corresponded and you included it in the sheet that we had you fill out before we began the interview. This is a statement that you made that I want the listeners to hear because A, it applies to your life as well I believe listener. And Warwick, with all the work that I’ve done for Crucible Leadership, this sounds like something we could’ve written for Crucible Leadership, what I’m about to read that Ed wrote here.
Gary S:
“Examine whatever you’re doing at a given moment. Any action you’re taking, thought your thinking, words you’re uttering. Does it contribute to your spirituality, to your self improvement, or service to others? If not, change what you’re doing.”
Gary S:
What’s your reaction to that Warwick, and Ed maybe you can expand on that.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I think that’s true. When I think about self-worth, it’s tied to significance because if you try to build money and success, I grew up with about as much money and power as you can. And I didn’t see too many people that really felt that good about themselves or certainly had happy lives. But happiness, joy, self-worth, it really is tied to significance, tied to serving others. When you’re about trying to help other people, in Ed’s case trying to help people with addiction and incarceration, just try to get beyond that, live productive lives, that’s where self-worth comes from. Self-worth comes from serving others. When you serve yourself, it doesn’t build self-worth. I don’t think human beings are wired that way. Whoever wired them that way, whether it’s the cosmos, spirituality, or God, we were wired to serve others. And only in that can we receive joy and happiness. Does that resonate with you Ed on your own journey to a life of significance?
Ed K:
Absolutely. The more we help others, the more we help ourselves. The more we give, the more we get. The more we can bring to the world around us, the more the world gives us. And I’ve found that it’s not so much that reality influences our thoughts nearly as much as it is that our thoughts create the reality around us.
Gary S:
Ed, you’ve talked a couple times about your book. Tell listeners a little bit about it. What’s it called? What does it cover? And how can they get it when it is out in April of this year?
Ed K:
Oh, yeah. Gary, thanks so much. My book is called My Addiction and Recovery. The subtitle is Just Because You’re Done With Drugs Doesn’t Mean Drugs are Done With You. It’s available right now on my website, www.edkressy.com. That’s just my name dot com. And the book covers the story that we’ve been talking about. How second chances, yes they benefit the person who receives the second chance, but they also benefit society and the persons who give those second chances.
Warwick F:
I just want to say, I think of that cave you mentioned that we’re all afraid to go into. It sounds like growing up for you that was writing. And there’s a lot of things you’re doing now to contribute to society with law enforcement and people behind bars who suffer addiction. But the fact that you’re writing, that to me is a wonderful thing. Because it was something that you were afraid of probably your whole life. And you’re doing it. When we conquer our deepest fears and pursue our deepest longings, ones that can actually be productive, that’s a beautiful thing. Don’t you think? I think it’s a wonderful thing that you’re writing. Because that can’t have been easy. To get to a point where you could do that, that says a lot, doesn’t it?
Ed K:
Yeah, well think about your life, look back upon your life years and years from now, what do you want to have looked back upon? What do you want to have to show for it? It probably won’t be a bank statement. It probably won’t be a financial statement. It probably won’t be a home or car. What you’re going to want to have to show for your life when you’re ready to go to the next stage of the journey is I believe many of us in some form, or all of us perhaps in some form will, what are we going to want to look back upon? It’ll be just like you were talking about Warwick, that life of significance, that having brought something of value to the world around us. These are probably the things we’re going to want to look back upon at the end of our lives and say that we’ve done.
Gary S:
That is an excellent place, Ed and Warwick, to end our conversation today. Listeners, thank you for spending time with us listening to this truly moving conversation about Ed’s story. And we hope that you see the application for it in your life, even if the circumstances are different. And we’re going to leave you with two practical thoughts as you move on beyond listening to this.
Gary S:
The first of those thoughts is a suggestion. If you’re struggling with moving beyond your crucible, take a page from Ed’s book. Find an opportunity to serve others. It doesn’t have to be big, it doesn’t have to be grand. It doesn’t have to have a business plan attached to it. It just has to be focused on helping others. What you will find is that in addition to helping others you’ll find what Ed’s described, what Warwick’s described and many things that he’s talked about and written about in Crucible Leadership. It helps others, but in the process of helping others and getting your mind off of your crucible, off of your bounce back, off of your trials and struggles, you’ll also help yourself. So, that’s practical tip number one as a suggestion.
Gary S:
Practical thought number two is a favor we’d like to ask you. If you’ve enjoyed, if you’ve felt that you’ve learned something, you’ve been edified by this conversation, we would ask you to subscribe to Beyond the Crucible on the podcast app that you’re listening to it on right now. Doing so will ensure first of all for you that you’ll never miss an episode. And it will help us share this and the messages that come through here. Stories like Ed’s that will help us share the content of Beyond the Crucible to more people to help them recognize that their crucible experiences can be the start of a great new chapter in their lives that lead to a life of significance.
Gary S:
So, until next time when we’re together, thank you for spending time with us and we look forward to the next time.
We live in an almost unprecedented time of stress and anxiety with the global pandemic of the coronavirus. We don’t know how long this crisis will last, when there will be approved safe remedies to treat the virus or still less when there will be an approved vaccine. Many have been furloughed from work, unsure how long their businesses will be able to survive and how long they will have jobs, assuming they still have jobs.
Amid the fear and stress of the health and economic uncertainty, many are living and working from home; 24/7. There are short breaks to walk or go to the grocery store, but then it is back to the house packed with family; kids home from school, adult kids in some cases being at home, too. In times in which stress and anxiety are high and many of us are living and working in close quarters with each other, friction can and probably will happen. Tempers will fray, hurtful words will come out. As humans when we are under stress, we tend to take our frustrations out on those who are around us, in this case our family or those we live with. Such lashing out on those we care about or are around is understandable. Even in normal times, friction in families can happen.
How can we lessen or ideally avoid such friction in times of exceptional stress and anxiety? How can we have grace and tolerance for those around us? In time, we hope the current global pandemic will ease, and while life may be different in its aftermath, we hope we will be able to get out of the house more. Even when life becomes hopefully more normal, friction and stress can still happen. And that’s just at home, in our personal lives. Stress and anxiety – even absent a pandemic – is a reality in our workplaces, as well. Knowing how to lessen it or eliminate it through your leadership is key to leading effectively and with transparency and
Here are some tips to having more grace and tolerance with those around
1. Do an internal audit.
Recognize that you are under stress, that you are anxious. Acknowledge it and accept it. Don’t be angry at yourself or, worse, get angry at others. We can debate if there is anyone to blame for the spread of the coronavirus. Being in a state of perpetual fixation of who is to blame for what we are all going through, is not to going to help you or those you care about. The global pandemic is certainly not your family and friends’ fault. So, own your anxieties, fears and stress. Don’t lash out at others.
2. Admit your fears and anxieties to others.
It helps us for those closest to us (family and friends) to know what we are feeling. For those strong silent types (often men), who want to appear tough when inside they feel like quivering jellyfish, admit your fears to those who care for you. Chances are they are scared and uncertain, too. Such vulnerability, reduces hostility, increases understanding and actually brings you closer together.
3. Be flexible.
Some of us like our routines. We go to work each day, or perhaps we have a home office. We like getting tea or coffee from our favorite coffee shop on the way to work. We like going to the gym on our way to or way back from work. We like going out to eat at our favorite restaurant with friends. This has all stopped, and many of us are in close proximity to our families or roommates all the time, every day. That is a lot of togetherness. This is frustrating. But we need to accept the fact that our routines have been interrupted. We need to be open to change the way we do things. As someone who really likes his routine, and does not like changing it, I have found this to be a challenge. But I recognize my innate desire, perhaps need, for routine and try to take it a day at a time. Hopefully, working from home and being housebound will not be forever. It is just a season, albeit a season of uncertain length.
4. Have grace with yourself.
Accept the fact that you are going to feel stressful, uncertain and fearful in times of near universal anxiety, which at this moment is the global pandemic. Then give yourself a break. Give yourself some grace. You, like everyone else, are human. We are wired to be stressed and anxious under such circumstances. When our ancestors were attacked by bears or tigers, they were scared. That is normal. Don’t be too hard on yourself.
5. Have grace with others.
If you feel like you deserve a break, how about giving others, especially, those close friends and family, a break. There is a saying, “treat others how you want to be treated.” This is the so-called Golden Rule, actually the words of Jesus. If you feel that you deserve forgiveness in what feel like unprecedented times, then perhaps those close friends and family deserve forgiveness too.
6. Channel your energy in productive ways.
It starts with acceptance. Accept the limitations of your current living and working environment. Think positively. How can you use your adjusted circumstances positively? If you are around close friends and family more, perhaps you can have a game night or a movie night. Perhaps you can actually talk to each other, rather than running from one activity to another which many of us do in normal times. From a professional standpoint, for those whose work schedules have been cut back or altered, think of those long-term planning projects you may finally be able to get to. Perhaps you are tired of your job or profession. Use this time to think of alternative directions. Perhaps consider calling friends and colleagues. You might be amazed that some people like you are stuck at home, and perhaps could be available to connect with.
Life can be stressful. It often is. Even beyond the current pandemic, when we get stressed we tend to lash out – in both personal and professional situations. We blame ourselves. We blame others. Or perhaps both. Having grace and tolerance with yourself and others is so important. Can you imagine a world where we were all tolerant of each other, where we all showed grace to each other? A world where there is understanding and forgiveness irrespective of race, background, political party or country of origin. That is the world many of us hope for. It starts with each of us, showing grace and tolerance first to ourselves and then to others.
Reflection
For what things, and in what ways, do you need to show yourself grace and tolerance??
Who do you need to show grace and tolerance to, and for what?
How would having an attitude of grace and tolerance change your world?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
She never really had a chance to dream about what her life could be before a tragic car accident at 11 in her native Taiwan left Michelle Kuei with physical and emotional scars that plagued her for 30 years. When her body stopped growing after the crash, her mind started racing with how she would never be “normal.” It wasn’t just that friendships and romance were hard — grocery shopping was near-impossible: she couldn’t grab anything to put in her cart without first discarding her crutches, and items on even the middle shelves were beyond her reach. But everything changed when she set her mind to fighting through the pain and fear and took up hiking, a pursuit that resulted in her ascending the peak of Machu Picchu and learning that she wasn’t just normal, she had extraordinary in her. Finding the diamond inside her rough circumstances, she tells Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax, led her into a rewarding coaching career in which she helps negative self-talkers discover inner strength and beauty by overcoming their fear of judgments. “Each and every one of us,” she explains, “is a gift to this world.”
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Well, welcome everybody to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. And you have pushed play, hopefully pushed subscribe to a podcast that deals in what we call crucible experiences. Crucible experiences are those things that happen to us or those things that perhaps we in some way, shape or form might help cause those painful moments in life, those difficult moments in life that can truly change the trajectory of life, that can make you feel sometimes like there’s no way out, can make you feel sometimes like you might want to give up.
Gary S:
But the reason for the show and the reason for Crucible Leadership, which is informs the show. The reason for that, the reason we talk about these things is so that we don’t end up camped out there. We don’t end up not wanting to get up and move on. It’s to talk to folks who’ve been through these moments, like you listener have been through, and to offer hope and healing, and encouragement to you in that process. And with me, as always, is the architect of what I mentioned earlier, Crucible Leadership, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, we’ve got just in the little chat we’ve done before we hit record, I can tell we’ve got a barn burner here today.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary, looking forward to it.
Gary S:
Our guest today, listener, is Michelle Kuei, and I’m going to read her bio to you right now. Michelle Kuei is a certified transition life coach who helps negative self-talkers to discover inner strength and beauty by overcoming fear of judgements. Michelle’s speaking career began in 2018, soon after she founded her own coaching company. She’s the author of the new memoir, Perfectly Normal; An Immigrant Story of Making It In America. She is a board member of the United Nations Association of the USA and a clinical pharmacist at USC’s Keck Medical Center.
Gary S:
Michelle was born in Taiwan and grew up in New York, but today, she lives in Los Angeles with a short haired Brown Tabby named Buster. If you’re looking for her, odds are you’ll find her at the gym. And Michelle, I’m going to put a pin in that comment because after we talk about your story, I want to come back to that comment because that’s a key element, I believe, of your story. Remember listener, that last point, if you’re looking for her, odds are you’ll find her at the gym.
Warwick F:
Well, Michelle, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. You have an incredible story. I’d love to just start with tell us about your story that leads up to your crucible moment. Yeah, just tell us a bit about Michelle and your story.
Michelle K:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure and in isolation, but it doesn’t feel like isolation right now. I’m surrounded by a lot of love. To start, basically, I grew up, like Gary said, I grew up in Taiwan. I was born in Taiwan and as I was growing up at age 11 years old, just like all the other kids who go to school, I came off school one day and I remember that day my mom was running late. I was waiting for her at school and when I saw her coming towards me to pick me up, she was on her motorbike. There’s a lot of motorbike in Asia. She was coming off on her motorbike, and I got up from my chair, I ran across the street. I wanted to meet her on the other side of the street.
Michelle K:
As I was approaching and walking to the middle of the street, I realized that my best friend was waving her hand at me and she said, “Stop, stop.” And she was waving at me and there’s a lot of shouting that was going on. I was confused. I was standing in the middle of the street and I could just smell the rubber that was burning, and I don’t remember where the sound was coming down. Then the next thing I know was that I woke up and I was in a hospital bed. And when I woke up and my parents were standing next to my bed, and they were talking to the doctor. I started to have sensation and I started looking down on my waist, and from my waist all the way down to my ankle, I noticed I was wrapped with this plaster that was surrounding my body.
Michelle K:
Basically, the doctor had… because of the accident, I had the accident while I was standing in the middle of the street, and the doctor had to stabilize me by wrapping me with a plaster from waist all the way to ankle. Following that incident, three months afterwards, I was basically trapped at home in isolation. I was in bed and I couldn’t go to school, and I couldn’t go anywhere. But what’s the crucible, and I love the title of this podcast because it’s crucible. What’s really difficult in those moment at age 11 is that the fact that I was a little kid and I wanted to go out to play. I wanted to meet my friend and I wanted to just be where the life that I used to live in, but I couldn’t do that and I was starting to live a different life.
Michelle K:
That moment was like a turning point for me because I no longer can do all the things I wanted to do in my past. And now I have to learn how to walk after they unwrap me. I have to learn how to do a lot of things by myself. Learning how to walk, learning how to make new friends was another thing at age 11. That was the beginning of this crucible moment. From age 11 all the way till 40 years old, so I spent 30 years of my life living very differently. It’s not a normal life where… so just to backtrack a little bit to gave the listener an idea of how I look like.
Michelle K:
I’m 4 feet, 4 inches tall, very short, very petite. This has been the same height since I was in elementary school, because the accident actually required the doctor to go back and perform a lot of different surgeries, so I had a lot of scars on my leg. And with that, something must have happened and inhibited the way that I was growing. I had not grown since when I was 11, the same height as I was 11. Growing into adulthood, being with the same height, it created a lot of challenges for me.
Michelle K:
There’s moment where I go to school, I can’t reach stuff on the shelf. When you’re a kid, that’s okay because people will… adult will just reach over and grab it for you. But when you reach over to adulthood or when you’re in your first job, and I remember my first job, I work in a pharmacy where the counter is taller than me. In order to me to work like everyone else, I have to use a step stool, I have to reach to the top. There’s a lot of climbing. There’s a lot of physical strenuous activity that I need to be able to do in addition to all the other responsibility that I have. That’s quite challenging.
Michelle K:
And I could never figure out why when you walk into a grocery store, all the essential items would be on the very top shelf rather than on the bottom shelf, that I never figured out. That’s also really very, extremely essential challenge for me because I need to buy essentials and I can never reach to the top. And there’s something about asking that always frightens me in the past. I never liked to ask people what to do or help me with things. What ended up happening is if I need to reach the toilet paper on the top, I can’t do that. I was just using an alternative rather than asking, putting myself out there and ask.
Michelle K:
That’s 30 years of my life growing like that. During that time, I was also battling with what’s going on in the inside, because as adolescent, as I grow into adolescent, I was experiencing a lot of that peer pressure where people are dressing up, all these girls they’re looking very pretty. They started to wear… it was during the ‘80s, so I don’t know if you guys remember the ‘80s, the hair.
Gary S:
I had hair in the ‘80s, so.
Michelle K:
The hair, the mini skirt and I wanted to look exactly like that, and that was one of my dream, wanting to look that way when I go out. When I’m in a social group, when I’m with my friends, when we hang out, I want to dress like that, but I couldn’t because with my leg, the way that the surgeon was performing, the doctor had told me that, “Michelle, from 11 years old, after the surgery, you have to wear these metal bracelet because as you’re growing, we don’t want you to grow your bone into a deformity.” I was given a pair of really ugly metal bracelet that I was supposed to wear up until the age of 18.
Michelle K:
But by age of 16, I was struggling with the look. I said to myself, “You know what? I’m not going to wear these. These are too ugly. I want to take it off.” I decided I was going to take it off, I took it off. And the minute I took it off, I started to use my body weight all on top of my leg. That created pressure and as I’m walking, it started to hurt my back. And by the time I reached my college, I noticed that I could no longer walk comfortably without any assistance. For the longest time, my mom was my crutch. She goes everywhere I go. I always hold onto her hand. She goes where I go.
Michelle K:
Once I got into graduate school, I had to live in the dorm. I went when off and left home, I started to live in the dorm. I couldn’t take my mom anymore, so I got to figure out a way to somehow walk. My doctor told me, “Well, this is time, basically, at this point, your leg is so disfigured. If you don’t use a crutch to walk, you’re not going to make it.” I said, “Okay, fine.” I started to use two arm crutches. Instead of holding on to my mom, I used arm crutches. And being short is one thing, it’s already a challenge. Now I have to deal with two arm crutches, holding on. I have no hand to hold anything else.
Michelle K:
A lot of times when I go out, it’s a matter of how do I strap things on my body so I can carry groceries. How can I use my body so that I can carry things that I need to carry with my hand? And when I see people going to a coffee shop and I get so envy of them because they have the ability of holding their coffee in one hand and looking at their phone at the other. I don’t have that luxury. I have two crutches and I can’t do neither one of them. I often have to stop either to get my phone, put my crutches down or one or the other. I couldn’t do both. And I get really jealous of people having the ability to do that.
Michelle K:
And that was something that I was really struggling with for 30 years of my life because I want to look normal. I want to have that life that everyone else has. Being able to go to a store and reaching to the top without asking people for help. I wanted to dress up pretty in my clothes so that when I go out people will say, “Michelle, you’re beautiful.” That first impression I never had, the first impression that we all value. Even during job interview, we look at someone, we look at the first impression. I always thought that that’s a luxury that I don’t have because I don’t have that first appearance.
Warwick F:
Wow, that’s an incredible story. And I want to go back a bit. And before age 11, you were probably just a typical girl, had a lot of friends. I’m guessing you’ve always been a happy kind of person in your nature.
Michelle K:
I was a happy, happy baby, my mom said.
Warwick F:
I can imagine. When that happened, I mean, sometimes there’s anger and resentment, like depending on your beliefs, God or some spiritual force, why did you let that happen? Maybe if my friend hadn’t waved to me, I would have kept going or why didn’t this car see me? And did you go through a cycle of anger and resentment, and how could this have happened?
Michelle K:
I did. I absolutely did. And I thought if my mom had come just a minute earlier or she hasn’t run late that day, maybe all of this wouldn’t happen. Or maybe if I were to just wait just one second more before I start walking across the street, then maybe this wouldn’t have happened. I went through that period initially, at least for a good 10, 15 years of my life, thinking why does it have to be me? Why is it just me that happened? I have two other siblings. I have a brother and a sister, and I’m thinking, “Why couldn’t it just happened to them? Why does it have to have happened to me? What is it about me? Why did it happen to me?”
Warwick F:
Why does the world not like me? I mean, you used the word normal before, which is we all want to fit in. It’s just part of being human. You want to be liked. You said growing up in the ‘80s, you want to be seen as pretty, be able to wear all the fashions and just like your friends. And it’s like, “Well, why can’t I be normal like my friends? Why can’t I be like everybody else? How has this fair?” I mean it just, the comment you made, “Why can’t I hold a cup of coffee in one hand, a phone in the other? I mean, is that too much to ask? It’s like I’m not asking for, I don’t know, a million dollars and a beautiful house. I just want a normal life.” Right?
Warwick F:
And so, for that must’ve been not just the accident, but the years after and grad school, and do I have to have my mother around me. I mean, I’m sure you love your mother, but can’t I go somewhere without that? And so that must have been… it sounds like it was years and years of dealing with that frustration. It wasn’t just the first few years, it was how many years would you say that frustration of just the-
Michelle K:
It was a good 30 years and I just wanted to be normal. And not being normal to me means that you have the normal body shape that we all… we flipped through the textbook, the biology textbook, this is how a woman or a man should look. There’s physically, they look identical, they look perfect, their legs are straight. That’s normal for me. And that’s how I define normal. And that’s what I believe normal should be. When I see myself in the mirror, I actually felt really ashamed of my body because this is not what I was taught. This is not what I see around me. This is not normal.
Warwick F:
It’s almost like I cannot be happy and fulfilled unless I’m normal. Was that the mindset that you’re going through? And therefore, it’s impossible for me to have a happy, fulfilling life because I’m not normal, as you looked at it.
Michelle K:
Yes.
Warwick F:
And so, I mean, I’m sure a number of listeners maybe have had physical challenges, there are all sorts of challenges that make you feel like nobody can love me and accept me. And it’s all from physical challenges to abuse, to you name it, there’s all sorts of things that people feel like nobody can possibly love or want me kind of thing. How did that change for you? Because there are certain things like physically, I imagine that’s a difficult thing. I mean, certainly you probably had to accept that you can’t actually change, but how did you manage to combat that and just change how you thought about things?
Gary S:
And especially if I can add here, especially from an emotional perspective, one of the things, Michelle, that strikes me about your story, your crucible experience is that it is both physical and very devastating, and also emotionally very devastating. One of the things that you and I talked about in advance of our interview time here and the note I took is that romantic relationships were very difficult. There’s an emotional aspect of this that is in very real ways as painful in different ways, but real ways as painful as the physical aspect of it.
Gary S:
To Warwick’s question, how did you overcome that both from a physical and emotional sense? And I guess for listeners who face some of those same things, there’s a physical crucible and emotions tied to it. Which one was perhaps more difficult to overcome?
Michelle K:
I would definitely say the emotional is the most difficult to overcome. Because a physical challenge, like what I did was I used a step stool. These physical external challenges can overcome by accommodating with a step stool or with something else, or with a crutch for nowaday, I reach over and just push things to the edge. External physical challenge is really easy to overcome, but emotional challenges, what I find that really were the core of the energy, the majority of the time that we’re spending dwelling on.
Michelle K:
And I remember one of the incident was I was in my 30s and that was during the time when I first got into relationship. And I remember I was just sitting there one day and there was an empty chair with a man’s jacket on the chair on the back. And I was just looking at the jacket and looking at the chair, and I started to crying. I was crying. And there’s an enormous sense of loneliness that was inside that was coming out for me, because for the longest time I was longing for someone to love me. I was longing to be loved, to be appreciated and to have that love be returned to me when I send it out.
Michelle K:
But when I’m not getting that reciprocate of love and caring from another person, from another man, I felt extremely hurt and alone. And that was the emotion I was going through from ever since I started to explore the relationship side. And there’s so much of interpersonal relationship that we deal with every day. What I’ve learned is that it says a lot about… it’s teaching a lot about who you are. When I was in those moments, and perhaps this is something that the listener can and find value in, is that in order to overcome your emotional challenge, many times you have to be able to recognize it. You have to allow it, you have to accept it.
Michelle K:
And my condition, my physical challenge was something I needed to accept. This is how I am and this is who I am. This is how I’m going to look for the rest of my life. I can sit here and not accept it, and keep having resistance, keep having that fighting emotion and keep wanting to understand why has it done to me, and keep wanting, exploring it in that victim thinking mentality or mindset. Or, I can accept that this had happened. It’s very unfortunate, but it happened. I can accept this is how I look and I can embrace every part of me because there’s something else other than, greater than what we see on the outside. It’s not just the physical appearance, it’s not just what we see externally. It’s what’s going on in the inside. There’s a light that’s inside each one of us. That’s what we need to accept.
Warwick F:
I mean that is so profound about focusing on the light that’s within us, accepting the things we can’t change. How did you do that? Because as you said, I think it was like, what, 20, 30 years of battling with this. I mean, it’s not easy. I mean, you’re an intelligent person. You’re somebody that looks like when they want to achieve something, they do. I mean, you strike me as that kind of person. It’s not like you’re somebody that just sits there and does nothing. How did you get to that point where you could actually accept the physical limitations and change how you thought about yourself? How did you do that?
Michelle K:
One of my biggest challenge in this life is my physical challenge, right? I grew up 30 years of being physically challenged and this is my limitation. And part of it has to do with the word that you used, combat. And when you’re in that combat mode, you realize there’s something that you need to fight. What is it that you need to fight for? And for me, what I need to fight for is to find a light, to find my purpose, find the reason why I am here. I started to tap into that anger, that resentment. I want to know why.
Michelle K:
And one day I remember I was waking up and suddenly, I was getting so tired of living this life. I told myself, “All right, so here you are. This is your physical challenge. What are you going to do about it?” I was asking, having a conversation with myself, I said, “What are you going to do about it?” My answer was, “Well, if physical challenge is my challenge, guess what? I guess I have no choice but challenge my physical challenge.” I decided that in 2016, I’d never been to a gym before. I never signed up to a gym, don’t know how to work the easy equipment. I was really afraid of breaking them. And being myself, getting myself broken. I was afraid to go into the gym.
Michelle K:
But in 2016, I decided I’m going to go sign up in the gym. I did that. That was my number one, my first step of wanting to find out what would it take for me to fight in this. I went and signed up to a gym, and then the second thing I did was I hired myself a personal trainer because obviously, I don’t know how to work these machines, so I need someone to show me, to teach me how to do it. I hired a professional, I hired a personal coach. And then the third thing I did, at that time all my friends, they were talking about how amazing it is to do hiking, to go out and climb the mountain, and going to Peru.
Michelle K:
And so, I could never participate in those conversations with them because it was some part of me that I just couldn’t do. One of my goal is actually to be able to participate in those conversation. That same year, 2016, I made a promise to myself, I’m going to promise myself that I can do this and I’m going to do whatever it takes to hike. I started hiking that year. And the other goal that I had was I don’t want just hiking, I don’t want to just go up to any mountain, I want to go up to Machu Picchu and I want to do the Inca Trail.
Michelle K:
The Inca Trail is 26 miles and it’s a four-day hike. And each day you have to just camp out and you have to rough it out. There’s no shower, there’s no toilet whatsoever. You really have to rough it up. And so, in addition to just being rough it out there, I flew myself to Peru in that same year, in September. I flew myself to Peru and I don’t speak Spanish, by the way. I flew myself there and I had my two crutches and I brought my two pink arm crutches because it has to be pink, it has to be pink. I brought my pink crutches, went up to the mountain, I got food poisoning the day before the hike, check myself to the infirmary the night before.
Michelle K:
And I remember calling my sister. I said, “I’m really sick. I’m in the hospital right now. I don’t know, can you talk me out of it?” My sister was like, “Yeah, you need to come home. Come home today.” And I thought about it, right? And I was, “No, I made it this far. I’m going to go.” After we hung up the phone, I told my sister, “I’m going to go.” And lo and behold, the next day, I went out to Machu Picchu, started my first day of hike. On the first day, it was all uphill. It was all inclined. I remember I had a lot of difficulty because the high-altitude syndrome, it was real.
Warwick F:
Right.
Michelle K:
Yeah, it was real. And I remember I was getting tired. I was dehydrated and so my immune system was kind of down. The first day was a struggle and I barely made it to the final camp that night. And my team leader, the tool guy who was with us, he sat me down and he asked me, because past the first day if I made a decision to come back, then there was still a chance that I can come back. He sat me down and he said, “Michelle, I know you were struggling and I know this is something that you want to do, but you were leaving behind you had to a difficult time to catch up. What do you want to do?” He gave the option to me and I thought about it. I said, “Thank you. I appreciate that you’re letting me know that after this point, there’s no turning back.” I said, “I appreciate that, but I want to continue.”
Michelle K:
Every morning after the first day, so starting on the second day, every morning, I will wake up at five o’clock in the morning, I would start my hike. I would put my headlight on. It’s still dark outside. You can’t really see the steps. I would put on my headlight and I would start my hike. Every day, five o’clock, I would start my hike. And I can barely just made it to meet everybody around dinner time, around lunchtime, around break time. And all these people that I met during that trip, it’s been an amazing journey.
Michelle K:
And so, I did that in September 2016, and the very last day of the Inca Trail hike, we were at the point of the Sun Gate. This is the final entry point before we get into the Machu Picchu, so I was looking at the steps, the final 50 steps at Machu Picchu. I looked up, it was 60 degrees angle or 70, yeah. I was looking up, and I was, “Oh my God.” I wasn’t sure what have I done? How am I going to finish these last 50 steps with my two crutches? And the steps were really narrow and small. I stood in front of the Sun Gate, I was looking up and I thought about all my life for this very moment. “Okay, I’m here. What do I have to do to finish this?”
Michelle K:
I gave my two crutches to my team leader, took off my day pack, hand the day pack to him. I say, “Here, you lead me to the top.” I sent him to the top. I got down to my knees and legs, I started to crawl because that was the only safe way for me to go to the top. I got down to my hands and knee, I started crawling every step, every step, one step at a time. And by the time I went to the top, my team leader was clapping. I turned around and there was someone else taking a picture. I took my hand up, that victory gesture. I was in the air. It felt so accomplished.
Michelle K:
Then I turned around, I started approaching to meet everybody and my teammate, and all these other travelers at this big platform at the Sun Gate. I walked in, everyone stood up and they were clapping, they were cheering for me. And I actually got a pin from Canada. It was an honorary citizen. I still have my pin. I still have my pin. And it was amazing. And that was the moment that I start to realize that I am capable. Whatever it is going in front of me, that I am capable as long as I set my mind to it.
Warwick F:
Well, it seems like that moment was pivotal on your journey, that changing how you think about things. I mean, there’s the internal and there’s the external, exactly sort of busting into the picture here.
Gary S:
Hi Buster.
Warwick F:
For the listeners who are listening to it, there’s a beautiful old Tabby cat that just emerged. But Michelle, there’s the internal and there’s the external, as I said, to think about this story. There’s externally, you are having an enormous impact on those around you. I’m not quite sure which to start with but just maybe on the external. You felt alone, like nobody wants to see me, but yet you had a whole bunch of cheerleaders, people that were with you. What did it feel like or as you looked at their faces, they were on team Michelle, right?
Michelle K:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
They were your team, they wanted you to win, they wanted you to succeed. Talk about the effect that you had on them and how it felt back to you.
Michelle K:
It was a really strange feeling because when I was in that moment, when I was so busy caught up in my own misery and tragedy, and thinking that the world, just all the bad things just happen to me, when I’m so busy tied in thinking about that, it was really hard to believe that I had any impact on others. Actually, that’s what my teammate had to called were Team Michelle, and we actually celebrate it with a cake on my last day of the trip that says Team Michelle.
Warwick F:
Oh really?
Michelle K:
It was really hard for me to believe that because I was so busy thinking about my own misery. And when you start changing your mind, when that shift starts to happen and you realize that you are not alone in this. There’s so many people around you who celebrate you, who cheer for you, who stood out for you and who clap for you. Now they really see you as the light at the end of their tunnel. It was a complete different experience for me and it was eye-opening to really stress seeing them for the first time.
Warwick F:
It’s almost like if you let them, they want to be with you, they want to not just support you, they want to cheer for you if you’ll let them, and you could see that. And then just it’s often we think of physical limitations and there are limitations, but yet it seems like you did what most people would say is impossible. Machu Picchu, I don’t know how many thousands of feet height is, but it’s very high altitude, sickness that a lot of people get. You got these 50 steps, 60-degree incline. It’s like most people would say somebody with your challenges and crutches, it’s impossible. Give it up. You’re going to hurt yourself. But yet you overcame that physical limitation.
Warwick F:
Talk about the feeling you had when you’re on top of those steps and you’d done what most people thought was impossible. What were you feeling at that moment when you’d achieve the impossible, seemingly?
Michelle K:
I was crying, the minute I reached to the top, and to answer your question, it’s 14,000 feet high.
Warwick F:
Oh wow.
Michelle K:
That’s the altitude.
Gary S:
Oh, just 14,000 feet.
Michelle K:
And when I reached the highest peak, I broke down and cry. And I think a lot of it has to do with that spirituality, that feeling that there’s something greater than myself, there’s something bigger than myself. And when I look around, the whole environment, the whole world, the mountain, there’s something bigger than just me. It helped me to lift my thinking away from that egocentric me, me, me, me, me, to a broader view of I am not in this alone. There’s so many people around me who celebrated me and there are so many people who’s going through the same journey, and they’re struggling too. I may not see their physical struggles, but they’re struggling too.
Michelle K:
And on my journey, I remember there’s a guy, the perfectly well, very fit. He probably worked out a lot and he was just kept throwing up. Every 10 seconds, 10 minutes, he was throwing up on the side and it was a race between him and I, because he has to stop and throw up, and I have to stop and catch up. It made me realize that yes, my struggle was the physical challenge, this is my limitation. But for someone else, it could be something that’s going on inside. There’s a storm that they are experiencing on the inside and I don’t see that. It’s not my place to judge them of what they’re going through.
Gary S:
Right. This is a perfect time, I think, to jump in and read something, Michelle, that you wrote in that form I talked about that we have guests fill out. And I have to tell you that we have had every guest that we’ve had on fill this out, and yours is one of the most inspirational ones I’ve read. But you said this and I think it summarizes your story perfectly, not just from your perspective, but also, I hope from the perspective of listeners who have different realities to their crucible experiences, but the emotions are the same.
Gary S:
But this is what you wrote in talking about how to think about a crucible, and you just described the way that you did that when you were going through yours and when you were bouncing back from it. But here’s what you wrote, in part what you wrote. “So what if this very moment, whatever this setback you are experiencing was meant to be something bigger than yourself? What if this is the universe’s gift to refine and polish the diamond within you? What if you are meant to find the gem, and that is what makes you different, unique and extraordinary? How would you choose to see your setback? How would you choose to see your tragedy? The misfortune that measured only a small fraction of our entire lifetime.”
Gary S:
That is a beautiful summary of not just your story, but the story of a lot of folks who are listening right now. And listeners hear that and realize that gift was not a word, I’m sure, Michelle chose lightly. That your crucible can be a gift from the universe, from your spiritual tradition. Can be a gift to help you realize things you’re capable of and to help you realize what you were, as Warwick talks about, what your true purpose is here on earth.
Warwick F:
Yeah, so great point. Michelle, talk about how what you went through can be seen as a gift, which for most people they just said, what are you talking about, Michelle? Not getting at all the hidden gem. I mean, there’s a lot of profound words in it. Talk about how your thinking changed and your message, frankly, to the world. Talk about that message in your perspective.
Michelle K:
I think each and every one of us are a gift. We are a gift to this world. For me it’s I’m really good at doing medicine. I’m really good with pharmacology. I’m a pharmacist, right? That’s what I do. And that’s a talent that was given to me. And for someone else, they could be a really good engineer. They could be someone who has a lot of analytical thinking. Each one of us are very unique and there’s a purpose in our life that we came to this earth for, and that’s how we serve to the world. Right?
Michelle K:
And when I talk about gift and each one of us being the diamond, you have to believe, you have to start to believe that you are this thing that we dig out from all the dirt, and what’s behind all that dirt, it’s actually something very beautiful, very profound, and very special, and very unique. Because there’s something inside of you that makes you who you are, that defines who you are, that makes you perfectly different than everyone else. And that is the gem. That is the diamond of you. You are the diamond, and you have to believe that because that’s who you are.
Michelle K:
And until you believe that, and until you have that grind in your brain, in your memory, in your mind, everything else in this world just have that impermanent sense, right? Everything that happens to us are just experience.
Warwick F:
Talk about how you began to see yourself as the diamond, because that aged 11, aged 28, 30, that I don’t think was where you were at. What did that look like for Michelle, for Michelle Kuei, for looking at yourself as the diamond? How do you change that thinking and what did that look like for you?
Michelle K:
Before I saw myself as wanting to be normal, I just want to be normal. Whatever that normal is that’s acceptable to the society, I want you to look just like everybody else. I meet you, I want you to be able to do things on my own. I want you to be able to hold a coffee, a cup of coffee in my hand. I want to be normal, which is fine, but living in normal, that’s not who we are. And I keep emphasizing that you have a purpose in life. What is your purpose? There’s a reason why we’re all here on this earth. And with that purpose, you need to be able to serve.
Michelle K:
Do you want to be normal? Do you want to remain and just being enough? And our purpose is not just being enough. And I think a lot of people, a lot of listener might resonate with this because we’re constantly thinking about, “Oh, it’s not enough. We’re not good enough. We’re not pretty enough.” Well, why even bother settling for enough? What if the idea is that you are more than enough? What if the whole idea is for you to find your purpose, find your strength so that you can use that purpose, use that strength to serve others who needs your help? Whatever that strength that you have, that is your purpose, that is your gem, that’s your diamond.
Michelle K:
For me, the way that I found it and how did I begin to see myself as a diamond is I start to realize, and this is actually just happened recently, I finally had an aha moment just a couple of weeks ago and I spent all my life wanting to be normal, and my book was talking about normal, like being perfectly normal. But I’m here, I am here in the middle of the road and that was my past. I’ve already done that. I am more than normal. I climbed Machu Picchu, I did all that. I’m able to hike. I did all these things, but that’s not normal. That’s not normal at all.
Michelle K:
People can’t do that. People can’t just wake up one night and they say, “You know what? I’m going to go high Machu Picchu.” No, that’s not normal at all. I’d done something very extraordinary that not many people can do. Why not accept yourself for your extraordinary? Why not accept yourself for who you are? You are more than just enough. Why not accept yourself for the gift that was given to you? And then that was my aha moment. I said, “HUH,” so I lived all my life just wanting to be normal. But in fact, there’s nothing normal about me. I’m really abnormal. I’m unique, I’m different, and I’m embracing it. I’m going to live it, I’m going to love it.
Warwick F:
And that’s a profound message that we all want to fit in, be normal. But I guess why be normal? I mean, as you said, we’re all unique, extraordinary in some sense. We’re all designed a unique way, with certain backgrounds, talents, skills. We all have a different purpose. Normal is overrated. Why be normal? Why not just embrace being extraordinary, embrace being different? Because everybody’s different. Why fit in? Fitting in is limiting, you know? And it sounded like your whole attitude to life changed.
Warwick F:
Talk about how you do pharmacy, but I know you do a lot of coaching and writing, and speaking. Talk about what is, it’s a word that’s tough to embrace for most of us, but talk about in what ways is Michelle unique, a gem, a diamond, even extraordinary, if you will. How does that manifest itself? What is your purpose in the world, do you feel?
Michelle K:
My purpose in the world is to inspire. I do everything. One of the things that I do very often is to speak about my story and the journey that I came through, and how I was in that place of feeling sorry about myself and just playing small, from the fact that today I see myself as a diamond. It sounds very like I give myself a lot of credit, but I truly feel that I am the diamond. And in order to have this contrary journey, there’s a breakthrough moment. There’s an aha moment that I finally said, “You know what? I’m going to step in. I’m going to start doing this.” That is my inspiration for everyone and my purpose is to inspire those to start to lead for themselves.
Michelle K:
And I think self-leadership is such a very important process and message that the world needs to learn and to hear. Because through self-leadership, you become the best version of yourself. And when you are the best version of yourself, you start to influence all these others around you. You start setting up example for them. You start showing them the way to lead their life. You’re not telling them how to lead their life. You’re showing them that it is possible through this crucible moment that you can find your way and make yourself shine, make yourself stand out.
Warwick F:
And what you’re saying is so profound. I think one of the things I’ve also found in my own life and I think some or many others have, is as you take your focus off yourself on to other people, how can I help others? How can I inspire them? How can I… it’s not just overcoming your own demons or your own self-limiting thoughts for yourself, by doing that, you help to inspire others. It’s almost like the, I wouldn’t say the challenge is greater, but the challenge is even more inspiring. It’s what is the purpose of getting up? And part of it is you want to inspire others.
Warwick F:
And so, as you’re focusing on others, it helps you feel less focused on yourself and how you look. Because when you focus on others, there’s not as much room to think about yourself, right? There’s what I call a healing balm, like a healing ointment, if you will, by focusing on others. Have you felt that just within your own spirit, as you focused on others? There’s a healing component to that, right?
Michelle K:
Absolutely. And when we start looking at the bigger picture, that’s where the healing comes in. Because you’re no longer focusing on the wellbeing of yourself, you’re focusing more on the wellbeing of the society, the community within your family. You still have that broader view of life.
Gary S:
We’re at the point of the show where we’re going to have to begin to not land the plane yet, but I think the captain’s turned on the fasten seatbelts sign. We’re starting our descent a little bit. But one thing to follow up on that point, Michelle, one of the really a blessing in getting to know you even before we started this interview, is you are very connected on social media. And after we first talked, you sent me a friend request on Facebook, and I have so enjoyed watching you live your life and the way that you live your life, and the way that you encourage people with exactly what you just talked about. Being focused on bringing joy to people, being focused on not what limits us, but the things that we can do.
Gary S:
And one of the things I said at the outset when I read your bio, the last line, if you’re looking for a Michele, odds are you’ll find her at the gym. There’s a video you posted on social media a couple of days ago and it speaks to this entire story that we’ve been talking about. On one side, there’s a photograph of you with your arm crutches, somewhat at some point after your accident. Obviously, you’re older but you’re still using those to get around quite a bit. And then the video is you-
Michelle K:
Doing a jump rope.
Gary S:
Right? You’re skipping rope and you’re not just skipping rope like I’d skip rope. Okay? You’re skipping rope like Sylvester Stallone in Rocky. You are skipping rope like a prize fighter. You are skipping rope fast. You are skipping rope well. I mean, it is in 45 seconds, hugely, hugely inspirational. In the time that we have left, first of all, let listeners know how they can connect with you to maybe hear some of the things that you can help them along their route as they’re going through their bounce back from their crucible.
Michelle K:
They can definitely find me on my website at elevatelifecoaching.org, or if they like, they can definitely follow me on Instagram, which I’m very active on Instagram. It’s a Elevate Life Coach.
Warwick F:
Michelle, you have such an inspiring story, that it’s one thing to have a physical limitation, but you’ve changed your whole perspective. You view yourself as, I don’t know, to me, a lot better than normal. You view yourself as, as we all should, as a diamond, uniquely created. We all have extraordinary attributes. You’ve changed the way you’re thinking and your focus on the helping and inspiring others. I mean, rather than being normal, you’re somebody that people admire. You’re somebody that people look up to. I know that you probably think, “Well, how could anybody look up to me?”
Michelle K:
They’re probably looking down on me.
Warwick F:
I’m 4-foot something but yet people do look up to you. In that moment when you were on top of those stairs at Machu Picchu, people were saying, “This is one extraordinary woman. This is somebody I admire. This is somebody that can teach me a lot.” It’s very difficult to change your way of thinking, but you’ve done… I mean, that is miraculous. That is extraordinary. You are, in a sense, a role model.
Michelle K:
Thank you.
Warwick F:
Helping people see that we all have limitations. Most people feel bad about themselves. I mean, if you take off the mask, give them truth serum, most people do or many people do. Maybe I’m exaggerating, but not much. But yet you’re giving people hope. Your limitations are clear. For many, it’s not so clear, it’s internal, but you’ve changed the way you’re thinking. You give hope that we all can change the way we think and focus on helping others, and using our extraordinary qualities we all have to help others. You have an amazing story, an amazing mission. Thank you for what you bring to the world.
Michelle K:
Thank you.
Gary S:
And one last thing I have to ask because I’m going to go back to this form that we had you fill out, and we ask every guest the same question at the end. If we could only ask you one question, what would that question be? And no offense to our previous guests, but your answer to that question is the best one I’ve seen. And this is what you said when we asked if there was only one question we could ask you, what would you want it to be? And I’d love for you to answer this question. Here’s how you answered our question and then you can answer your own question. Fill in the blank. You said the world needs what? What does the world need, Michelle?
Michelle K:
The world needs more love.
Gary S:
On that note, listeners. See, I’m sitting there thinking it’s going to be a nice long. No, it’s very inspiring. And when you can make me like at a loss for words, you’ve done something, so bravo. But thank you truly, thank you truly for that. I mean, because that summarizes what you’re talking about, I think. And listeners, thank you for joining us today on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. There’s a few things from Michelle’s story I was taking notes on as she was saying them that I hope you heard as well, and I want to accent again before we go because I think there’s some good takeaways.
Gary S:
There are far more good takeaways from her story than the three I’ve written down, but here’s three that as you look at your own crucible experiences, as you look at your own desire to bounce back from those to embrace your vision and live a life of significance, here’s three things that Michelle has talked about today that I think you can apply to your own life. The first thing is that it’s true that crucibles can change the things you love to do and they can even change your ability to do certain things, but you can conquer so much of that with a positive attitude and positive action.
Gary S:
The second takeaway I think from Michelle’s story, and this is a powerful thing, and she said it herself here in our conversation that it’s hard, but press through how hard it is and do it. Second takeaway point, ask for help. The key to overcoming crucibles, Warwick has talked about it many times, is having a team of people around you, formal or informal, professional or personal. Ask for help. There are people out there who want to help you, who are willing to help you and who are able to help you.
Gary S:
And then the third point, I think that all of us would do well to follow in our crucible experiences, that in order to overcome emotional challenges, Michelle talked about it in depth. In order to overcome emotional challenges tied to your crucible, you have to accept the reality of your crucible. Pretending it’s not there, pretending it didn’t happen, pretending there aren’t repercussions of it isn’t going to work. You have to accept the reality of it. But don’t camp out there, like we said at the outset. Let it inspire you to action, both in the way that you think about yourself and others, in the way that you act in to yourself and to others. Yes, it’s real, but you can make it. You can find the diamond inside.
Gary S:
That’s all the time we have, but thank you again for joining us on Beyond the Crucible. We’d ask you for a quick favor, listener, if you can do it right now on whatever podcast app you’re listening to this show on, click the Subscribe button. What that will do is make sure that you don’t miss any episodes of what we talk about here on Beyond the Crucible. It will also help us to reach more people with inspiring stories, with hopeful stories, with stories filled with joy and laughter like Michelle’s. A quick subscribe, share it with friends. That will be a huge benefit to, I think, your friends and a huge benefit to us as we can share the realities of how people are overcoming their crucibles and the hope and healing that comes from that.
Gary S:
Until we’re together next time, remember that crucible experiences are real. They do happen. They can be devastating, but they are not. Michelle Kuei’s story proves that they are not the end of your story. They are the beginning of a new chapter of your story if you choose to dive into them and learn the lessons of them. And that chapter of your new story can be the best one yet because it points you toward, leads you to a life of significance.
