Millions worldwide are dealing with fears of the “what if?” right now as the world struggles through the health and economic uncertainties of the coronavirus outbreak.
These worries can be upsetting, depressing and even emotionally paralyzing; in fact, one scientific study has determined fear of the unknown can be more distressing than fear of serious injury or death. In this new episode of BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE, host and Crucible Leadership founder Warwick Fairfax offers several encouraging insights into rising above those fears and the hopelessness they can cause, noting that what the world is facing today is a hypercharged crucible experience not unlike what we all face in our lives when more intimate failures and setbacks strike. They key, he and cohost Gary Schneeberger discuss, is finding outlets that create personal calm amid the chaos and continuing to move forward in active combat against the fears that plague you — uncovering the opportunities that exist behind the challenges. “When fear starts coming on,” Fairfax says, “don’t wait for it to grow from an ember into a forest fire.”
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everybody to the latest episode of Beyond The Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, your cohost of the podcast and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. And you have clicked play on a podcast that deals with crucible experiences, those moments in life that are difficult, that are challenging, that can be in fact, quite painful and can change key aspects of your life, change the path of your life, the trajectory of your life. And in this particular episode, while we often talk to guests, in this particular episode, it’s less an experiential conversation with a guest and more of an unpacking of some of the key principles of crucible leadership, which is the organizing construct of Beyond The Crucible, and it is the creation of both the life experience of the host of the program who is here with me and I’m going to bring him in now.
Gary S:
That’s Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, welcome to what I hope is going to be a very, both enlightening and I think hopeful discussion for listeners.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary. Great to be here and looking forward to it.
Gary S:
What we’re going to talk about today, Warwick is interesting and it’s timely, and yet it’s also timeless, it’s the idea of fear of the unknown and the power of the fear of the unknown, and not always in a great way, usually not in a great way. And there’s a reason why we’re talking about this right now, let’s be honest. When I said it’s timely, right now as Warwick and I are recording this, we are in shelter at home, and the world, not just the US, the entire world is going through the COVID-19 pandemic, and there is an awful lot of fear of the unknown.
Gary S:
At the same time though, this is a timeless subject because fear of the unknown dates back far before the coronavirus, dates back to the beginning of time. And you can find examples of this idea of, “What’s out there? What could harm me? What could change my life? What could knock me off balance?” Not knowing what to fear sometimes leads you to fear everything, and that makes it that much more devastating. And it’s very interesting, before we dive into the subject, Warwick, I wanted to share with everyone that this isn’t just anecdotal, this idea that fear of the unknown is such a severe fear.
Gary S:
There was actually a study done in the Journal Of Anxiety Disorders in 2016 proving again, that this was not something that just came up in the last several months. And in the Journal Of Anxiety Disorders, they set out to determine if fear of the unknown was, in their words, to borrow a phrase from folks who are aware of the Lord Of The Rings series, if fear of the unknown was one fear to rule them all, to use the language somewhat of the Lord Of The Rings series. And they did some extensive research that I don’t pretend to really understand, except that I read the summary of the research. And what it found was fascinating.
Gary S:
They studied fear of such things as being poorly evaluated, either at work or just by people in social interactions, someone doesn’t like you. They studied that fear to see if that was what they called a fundamental fear. They studied whether or not fear of injury or fear of even death, if that rose to the level of a fear that was that one fear to rule them all, that was so fundamental that was sort of the logo for fear, if you will, And they determined, these researchers who did this study in 2016 for the Journal Of Anxiety Disorders, found that none of those fears were fundamental but that fear of the unknown was.
Gary S:
And again, I don’t pretend to understand any of the science in it, I’m a word guy. But one thing that they said when they determined what were the characteristics, and this is a good place for us to begin to jump off Warwick and talk is, one of the characteristics of what makes a fear fundamental was that it is continuously and normally distributed in the population. Again, not a scientist but a word guy, my translations for that, my layman’s translation is, fear of the unknown is a fear that is always there in a culture and a fear that is widely held throughout the culture.
Gary S:
That to me is what they’re saying. That to me is what makes fear of the unknown such a fundamental fear, such a one fear to rule them all, and the reason why we’re talking about it today, Warwick.
Warwick F:
That’s amazing, really, what Journal Of Anxiety is saying, here you have this fear that’s, according to them is this fundamental fear, and what we’re going through now really across pretty much the whole world with the coronavirus is the fear of the unknown, that’s what we’re facing. So we’re facing one of the toughest challenges. We’ve got challenges on so many levels. Obviously, from a health perspective, you have this virus that came out of nowhere, that nobody has any immunity to, so on one level there is the fear of, “I might get mildly sick, maybe moderately sick, or even severely sick and die.” There is no known cure at the moment. There is no known vaccine, scientists around the world are madly researching as fast as they can and making valiant efforts, but as we speak right now, there’s no scientifically proven cure and a vaccine could be a year or 18 months away.
Warwick F:
Most of us are sheltering in place, we go to the grocery store as little as possible. If you go, wear gloves, wear a mask. Stay inside. So you’ve got the whole health side of the coronavirus, but then you’ve got the economic impact. There’s many people that not only are they at home, they might be getting a paycheck, maybe they’re not. Maybe their company said, “Yeah, we’ll pay you through April, May. We’ll see.” It’s like, “What does we’ll see mean?” And some, whether it’s waiters, some folks have been laid off without having any idea when they’ll be back at work, restaurants, will it be a month, two months, six months, longer?
Warwick F:
How will restaurants even make a living? They make their money by packing them in, packing them in is like something that may not happen for a very long time. So all that’s to say is, there are so many fears from a health, from an economic, from a job, just how long will this go on? And the answer is right now is, we don’t know. It’s almost the ultimate fear of the unknown. There are other fears but this is a textbook example unfortunately, of why the fear of the unknown is so gripping, so paralyzing, if you will.
Gary S:
Right. And one of the things you described is this idea that your mind races in all directions. I’ve heard it described by actors sometimes, and bear with me in this comparison, doing a play from a stage when the audience is in front of you, that’s a little bit easier to pull off in theater in a round, because you’ve got to act in a 360 degree way. And in some ways, in very real ways, what’s going on now is your mind is racing 360 degrees. There is every day a new headline, a new social media post, a new comment you hear from someone, something that causes your mind to go, “What if?” Or, “How about?” Or, “Have we thought of this?”
Gary S:
It made me think of, you’ve all seen, listener, I think those decision trees. You pull up to a stoplight or a stop sign, you can turn left or right and you choose, “I turn right.” And then you go down that, and that leads to a bunch of other decisions that you can make because there’s a park and you can stop or you turn left and there’s a bunch of decisions, there’s a ballpark and you can go, however that works. Those decision trees, it seems like an endless collection of decision trees that has nothing but links and tendrils attached to it. And before too long, your mind can get down to some places where it can be very very, very confusing, very saddening and very tormenting even, to imagine the what ifs that present itself when you’re truly gripped by fear of the unknown.
Warwick F:
That’s so true, Gary. It’s really the ultimate decision tree. It’s an endless collection of decision trees, an endless cycle of potential fears. It is just so much. You look at the news each day and federal government briefings, state government, local government, it’s, “When is the virus going to hit its peak? How bad is it in our area? Maybe it’s a lot worse than I think because cases are unreported. If I get sick, should I go to the local hospital? If I go to the local hospital, a lot of times loved ones come in and I might be there for who knows how long, and how long will it be until I know if I’m sick or not sick?”
Warwick F:
You hear famous folks like the prime minister of Britain, Boris Johnson. At one point, he was in intensive care, and he’s like in his mid 50s. It’s happening to everybody. So you’ve got the endless thoughts about what could happen, the what ifs and, “What do I do if that happens? What about my loved ones?” Especially for ones… I have a mother-in-law in her late 80s whose lungs aren’t particularly good. We all have folks that we’re concerned about. And as I mentioned before, the job front. How long will it be before we get back to work? And what if this? And what of that? “Can I prepare this?”
Warwick F:
And so it’s almost like hundreds or thousands or even millions of fears if you work out all the numbers and all the elements of the decision tree, all the things that could possibly happen that we don’t know and therefore we can’t prepare for what… we can prepare on some level, stay home, be safe, minimize outside contact, there’s some things, but there are a lot of things that we can’t prepare for because we don’t know what’s going to happen. And so that’s where the fear of the unknown is so deadly, you just get paralyzed by the endless decision tree of what ifs without seemingly any way to combat it. That’s why it’s so paralyzing, it just overwhelms our emotional systems to be able to handle.
Gary S:
And the reason why we’re talking about this in the context of crucible leadership, in the context of this podcast, Beyond The Crucible is that in the same way that it’s an endless collection of decision trees, when you’re suffering through, you’re struggling through fear of the unknown. In some ways, it’s an endless selection of possibilities for crucible experiences. Those fears, what we’re fearing as we’re going through this, no matter what it is that is prompting the fear of the unknown, and sometimes it can be not much externally, it’s just fear of change and those kinds of things, it’s a collection of fear of those crucible experiences.
Gary S:
And we talk here about the pain of crucible experiences and how they are hard to bounce back from and you have to learn the lessons of them. But is it fair to say that fear of the unknown is in a very real sense, fear of an endless possibility of crucible experiences across the map?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And while the launching point for this discussion is the coronavirus that we’re going through, based on what the experts tell us, at some point we’ll get through it, the world will go back to work, there’ll be a vaccine, there’ll be cures. The best experts in the medical and scientific field assure us that we will get through it. And so that’s some comfort, so we’ll get through this. But unfortunately, there are always crucibles and it could be at work, maybe your company gets acquired by another company. So what’s going to happen for my job? Maybe middle management or people on the ground floor, maybe we’ll lose our jobs. What’s going to happen?
Warwick F:
Maybe you are going to a new high school or it’s your first day in college coming up, and you’re in another state, it’s the first time you haven’t been living at home. What’s going to happen there? You’ve just got married. It’s seemed really good on the honeymoon, but now you’re actually doing it day in, day out. You just hope for the best and all that. But anytime there’s change, there’s going to be fear. That is just part of life. So just understanding when the fear of the unknown, which is just part of being human, when that happens, how do you deal with that? How do you fight those fears? Because left to themselves, they’re like weeds, they grow all over the place.
Warwick F:
So you can’t let them grow, you got to fight it. It’s a day in, day out. You can’t always determine what’s going to happen at the macro level or health wise or economy, but you can fight your attitude and fears. That is something that you can have some control over.
Gary S:
And we always say on Beyond The Crucible if we’re talking to a guest or we’re just talking to each other, we always say that we deal in crucible experiences, those painful moments in life that can change the trajectory of your life, but we don’t talk about them for the purposes of camping out there and wallowing in them or not being able to move beyond them, we talk about them so that we can learn from them and we can apply the lessons to them to then move forward and live a life of significance. So listener, we are not talking about fear of the unknown and the power of the fear of the unknown, the paralyzing power of the fear of the unknown.
Gary S:
We’re not talking about that so that we can continue to stay there. What Warwick just talked about was we want to offer some ideas, some insights, some hope, some healing to help you, not just in the midst of the coronavirus, but for someone who’s listening to this podcast in three years, the things that are fueling your fear of the unknown. We talk about these things now because we want to help you get beyond them. And Warwick has very recently published a blog which has some really, really excellent insights, Warwick, about how to move beyond fear of the unknown. Share some of those beautiful thoughts.
Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely, Gary. I think it starts at one level with being in the moment. Part of being in the moment each day is, yes, it’s battling your fears, and there are some tips that I’m going to mention here in a moment. It’s being present. We can’t solve tomorrow’s problems. I’m all for planning, but there’s a lot of things you can’t handle. And one of the greatest sources of wisdom in life is just this discipline to say, “I’m going to stay present today. I’m going to work on what I can control, and what I can’t control, I’m going to attempt not to worry about it. So what can I get done today? How can I be present? What are the things I can get done to positively move things forward in my professional life, my personal life? How can I be present with my family?”
Warwick F:
We live in an unprecedented time where many of us are having more time with our families on a 24 hour basis than we ever had, whether we have young kids, teenage kids, older kids that may be living with us, just being present with them. The daily battle is key. And so part of that daily battle, it really begins with what I’d say is reflection or meditation and prayer, and that’ll be different for everybody. For me, I read my Bible each day, I’ll pray, reflect, maybe listen to some music, some worship music. I’ve different rhythms to try and center myself.
Warwick F:
Others, maybe it’s yoga or just some form of meditation, maybe it’s reading a favorite book. I heard one person recently say that they love memorizing some of the speeches of Abraham Lincoln, who obviously we all admire, whether it’s his Gettysburg Address, “Four score and seven years ago,” or what have you. Maybe it’s some of the sayings of Nelson Mandela. We all have different ways, but that’s certainly one is just center yourself in some sayings, some teachings, prayer, meditation, words from great leaders. Something that really pulls you back to your core, to your central beliefs. It just helps to calm yourself. So that’s certainly a big one.
Warwick F:
I think for many of us, we can still walk. We can’t walk in big groups, but whether it’s around your neighborhood, maybe it’s a local park. We want appropriately distance, but I think for many of us, we can still get outside and there’s something about being in nature and the birds, trees just being in that environment, just feeling the gentle wind, I think that can be a very helpful. Other tips will include… I love music and I love all kinds of music, I have somewhat eclectic tastes from classical to swing, jazz, even ragtime, more popular music. Obviously, I mentioned worship music. All different kinds of music.
Warwick F:
But whatever music is your genre, that you really love and that calms you and just takes you away to a familiar place that you love, music can really do that, I think that is helpful. And while we can’t be with family, extended family or friends in the way that we have been, certainly we are around our immediate family. Just take time to be present in ways that many people have maybe two jobs and they’re working all kinds of hours, kids maybe in high school, college studying and having all sorts of extracurricular activities, so we have a unique time to be present and be with, to play, hopefully to find a way to laugh, amidst the fear.
Warwick F:
And for those who are not present, with technology, whether it’s FaceTime, Zoom, or many other different means, we can actually connect with family members all over the country and indeed all over the world. And so that’s very helpful.
Gary S:
It is. And in fact, I, as I’ve said as a word guy, I have rejected the phrase social distancing at this time. I understand the concept and I’m not saying, please don’t hear me, listeners, saying I’m rejecting social distancing. What I’m rejecting is this idea that however it came up, social distancing isn’t what we need. We need physical distancing, that’s what we need in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. But more than ever, we need social connection and those things that Warwick talked about, leveraging technology to be able to connect with people.
Gary S:
I saw a beautiful, beautiful photo on Instagram of a son of an elderly father who was in a nursing home, and he couldn’t see his father because of the restrictions on visitation. So he sat out, he sat on a ledge outside the window of his father’s room and called him up on the phone and talked to him. And it was just a beautiful picture of how social connection can still happen in the reality of social distancing. There are still ways to leverage technology. And one of the beautiful things about that, we’ve all seen the picture in a restaurant. You go in, there’s a family of four, mom, dad and two kids and everybody’s staring at their cell phone, everybody’s looking at their phone and they’re not interacting.
Gary S:
Technology, these things that were supposed to bring us closer together have in many ways brought us further apart. And one of the great opportunities we have in this time right now of the pandemic, one of the great opportunities we have is to be able to seize back control of technology to bring us closer together, not farther apart. And that’s one of those things that even in fear of the unknown, we can look to be hopeful about because it speaks to a better future when this is all over.
Warwick F:
It’s so true. And it’s funny, sometimes technology can help us get together in ways, maybe we haven’t normally because we’re stuck at home and we’re pining for social interaction. Just as an example, about a week or so ago, my daughter said, “Well, why don’t we have a Zoom call with mom’s family?” And my wife has four brothers and a sister and there all over the place from Tennessee, to Iowa, to Illinois, Ohio. They’re all over the map and so it’s not easy for us all to get together. Well, surprise, surprise, they were all available. They all turned up and they love just chatting in ways that… Maybe once a year we’ll all get together somewhere or we try to, but it’s hard.
Warwick F:
In fact, we’re going to do another one tonight, funnily enough, that my daughter also said, “Hey, let’s organize.” So that’s really helpful. Some other couple of tips. One is, as we combat this whole concept of fear, I grew up, as most listeners know, in a newspaper family in Australia, so I follow the news, politics, economics very closely, always how I love being informed, it’s just part of my culture and upbringing. And I think it’s very important to be informed about what’s happening with right now, coronavirus, health, economy, Federal, state, local, that’s important, but not too much. You can listen to news channels 24/7, and the more you do, it just gets overwhelming. It’s like, “Oh my gosh, the world’s going to end it. What about this? And what about that?”
Warwick F:
So stay informed. I don’t know if it’s five minutes a day, half an hour, an hour, whatever works for you, but if you feel like, “Okay, I’ve got enough information,” and the fear meter starts creeping up, it’s like, “Okay, is this going to serve me by keeping on listening and watching this news channel or radio or whatever it is? And often the answer is actually no. So just be disciplined, stay informed, but don’t keep plugged in 24/7, it just drive most of us crazy. And another really important thing, we’ve talked a lot about reflection and music and walking in nature, and that’s all very important, but one of the most important things is keep moving forward.
Warwick F:
It feels like we can be paralyzed and for some of us that have virtual businesses that may be easier for some than others, but whether it’s professionally or personally, maybe there are some things at work that you never had a chance to get to, start thinking about planning, “Hey, what are some plans I need to do?” Maybe you’re in a job that’s not really that satisfying, well, think, “Okay, I’m stuck at home now, let me think about, well, what do I want to do? What is a job that better fits my skills, that I’m passionate about?” As we often talk about, helps us lead a life of significance. So think of every day as an opportunity. And that’s one of the things I think we’ll talk about is turning challenges into opportunities professionally and personally.
Warwick F:
Every day think about, “Okay, how can I move the ball forward?” Because we’re in the present and we’re focused on getting something done, it helps with fear. And just anecdotally, one of the things I want to mention is, because I’m somebody that have a creative mindset, I’m not creative artistically necessarily, but I’m always thinking of things and imagining, maybe reflecting, dreaming a bit, my mind is naturally always going at a fairly fast pace, which is not always good, which means that in terms of that whole fear branch stuff we talked about, left to its own desires, it would be on overdrive. And so because I’m wired that way, I have to be very careful.
Warwick F:
And so by channeling my brain, which I can’t stop, it’s just the way I’m wired, in ways of obviously, do the meditation and the walking and listening to music, “Okay, how can I move things forward professionally? Who do I need to get ahold of?” Connecting with family, that helps me, just keep my mind focused on areas that’s actually productive. So there’s actually opportunities amidst the challenges.
Gary S:
Absolutely. And there’s an article that Forbes Magazine did a few years back about how you deal with… This was done in the context of change in the workplace, change in your professional life, but it was that fear of the unknown, change in professional life, as you talked about earlier, Warwick, can be very fear of the unknown centric because you just don’t know what the new boss is going to do, he’s going to bring his own people on board, etc, etc. One of the things Forbes said that dovetails nicely with what you just explained, Warwick, is that, one way to overcome fear of the unknown is to acknowledge your fears by writing them down on paper so that you have them in what they say is objective form and can stop dwelling on them.
Gary S:
One of the things I’ve just had to do with my computer is like offload a bunch of heavy files because it was cutting down the ability of my computer to do the processes that needed to do for me to get work done. In the same way, you can offload those fears, write them down, get them in tangible form so that you can stop dwelling on them. Then Forbes advises, you can go through each one and jot down what you would do in the event that fear came to pass. You can actually spend some time processing them out in logical ways, not in necessarily overly emotional ways. And what you’ll find, many, many times, they say here, it diffuses the emotional angst, but also you can come to see that those fears, that unknown might not be that likely to occur.
Gary S:
You can move some unknowns off the plate a little bit. I’m with you, Warwick, I have a very active imagination. I’m the kind of guy that in general times, 10 years ago, if I had a bad headache or my shoulder hurt, I couldn’t go to the internet to look up the symptoms to see what was wrong with me because it was either a common cold or I had some deadly disease. And it’s that kind of mindset that I have too, and the idea of jotting down those things and separating the possibilities from the things that really are flights of fancy, I think can be extraordinarily helpful, but offloading those emotions from your head to paper can really free up some space in your head to focus on some of the solutions you’ve been talking.
Warwick F:
That’s such a great point. I can remember in the past, and we all do it differently, there are times when being a person of faith, I would just write down my fears and instead of hopefully not a mythical conversation with God, hopefully actually it was, because very few of us hear an audible voice, but I would just write it down what I was fearing and anxious about, and then in some sense, I would just sense the Lord’s leading about what his response was, which it might be as simple as, “Warwick, I have you, I’m with you.” Maybe an objective perspective with a little bit of a twist on that, but there are different ways of doing it. And I agree with you, Gary, that just writing it down and then objectively looking at it, and writing what if that happened, what would I do about it.
Warwick F:
Other ways I think it helps often I’m somebody that I like journaling and all that, but I also like talking with others, sometimes it helps me think by verbally processing with other people. So at times when I’d been fearful about things, I’ll say to my wife, sometimes it’s as simple or as complex as, “I’m feeling anxious and fearful, but I’m not sure what it’s about.” And for me, it drives me crazy when I’m fearful and anxious and I don’t even know what it’s about, I can’t formulate it, then I can’t do anything about it. And so we’ll talk about it and because she knows me, “Oh, is it this? Is it that? I think maybe it’s this.” And nine times out of 10, she nails it, and then she talks me through it and then I sort of calm down. So that’s certainly one.
Warwick F:
And with our kids is a good example. I’ve had kids go to college or applying to graduate school, and inevitably, there’s the fear of the new, and so we will go through it, “Okay, well what’s the pros and cons of this versus that? And let’s talk about those fears.” And it’s easy for me to be calm about it because it’s not my life. So I can objectively offer some counsel and thoughts and advice whether it’s in decision making or fears. I think that’s where this whole concept of world as a community, if ever we need our community, it’s right now, both journaling is helpful and just friends and family that we can talk with, be honest with, if you’re fearful, just admit it because the other person is probably just as scared as you are, but they don’t want to admit it.
Warwick F:
And it’s not saying and you do it to everybody, but if they’re really close friends and family, it’s okay to say, “I’m anxious,” and maybe, “How are you doing?” That’s one of the other things is, when you talk about your fears, but also hear other people’s fears and you can be present with them, counsel with them, pray, meditate with them, whatever works for you, that’s helpful too because it gets your mind off yourself. So I think it’s just being honest about your fears, talking about it, whether it’s in a journal or to other people, hearing other people’s fears, helping them. Somebody said once, “When fear is named, it’s loses its power.” And so there is something about that. And I think as I said earlier, it is a daily battle, it’s a bit like when you start getting a cold or whatever, yeah, there’s no cure for the common cold, but you can still have vitamin C or lots of rest or whatever it is you think might help.
Warwick F:
Same with fear is when it starts coming on, don’t wait for it to grow from an ember into a full forest fire, deal with it early on, use whatever mechanism, we’ve mentioned a bunch, whether it’s journaling, talking to friends, listening to music, praying, walk in nature, whatever. All of these are tools, but just combat it. It’s a war, combat it early on, don’t let it take root. It’s a lot easier to deal with it when it’s a small little ember than a massive forest fire. So it’s a war, it requires discipline, proactivity, and yeah, you just got to keep at it every day.
Gary S:
Those are extremely excellent points, and listener, I hope you’re hearing in these words, hope. If you tuned in at the outset and you were fearing the unknown, you were gripped by fear and one of the things you needed to get your mind off what you were racing around fearing and you clicked play on this podcast to help you do that, just to distract yourself, hopefully, we’ve done more than that in this discussion and actually helped you begin to see ways to use Warwick’s precisely chosen and very, very correct word to combat the fear of the unknown. Hopefully, you’ve gleaned some tips out of this.
Gary S:
And Warwick, before we go, I do want to explore this for a little bit, what happens, what’s the benefit? We’ve talked about how fear of the unknown is a fundamental fear, even greater according to at least one scientific survey, is greater than the fear of death. We’ve talked about ways that you can engage your mind and body to help you overcome that, but in the last few minutes we have, share with listeners from your perspective, what’s the benefit of that? What happens when you come on the other side of fear? It’s the same thing as we talk about when you come out of the other side of your crucible experience. There’s benefits to that, there’s hope in that, there’s healing in that. What can that look like for our listeners who are struggling right now with fear of unknown?
Warwick F:
It’s a good question. When you’re faced with the crucible learning to deal with it, it’s almost like a muscle memory for an athlete, it helps you learn how to deal with crucibles next time, it’s never easy. I can think of an example of my own life it’s not so much related to fear of the unknown, but forgiveness, just because of growing up in a wealthy family, media business, I think I said earlier on a podcast, it used to feel like I had a sign on my back in middle school that said, “Betray me.” And so I’ve had a lot of practice at forgiveness, and I’ve said earlier that if you don’t forgive, the person that most hurts is you, it corrodes your soul. And that’s a whole another discussion. But the point is, the more I’ve done it, something happens. Yeah, it still hurts, but I was like, “Okay, that hurt. I got to forgive and move on.” And it has gotten easier. I have to admit, it has gotten easier.
Warwick F:
So I think dealing with crucibles can be the same way if you use some of these methods of just combating it every day, whatever tools work for you, whether it’s listening to music, prayer, walk in nature, journaling, talking with friends, it does help. It gives you hope that, “Okay, I can handle this, I can deal with this.” I’m reminded of a friend of mine, Margie Warrell, has a recent book called, You’ve Got This! It’s nice when you’re able to deal with something and say, “You know what, I’ve got this. It’s unnerving, but I can combat it.” And one of the keys with crucibles, which I admit is not easy to do in the moment, is to switch our perspective, it’s seeing it as a challenge, which it is, but saying, “Okay, what’s the opportunity here? What are some things that this challenging circumstance, which I never would have chosen to go through, how can I see some opportunity in that?”
Warwick F:
And it could be on a personal front, as we’ve discussed, chance to spend more time with family than maybe we have before, maybe it’s a chance to connect with friends and distant family members who were never available but now they’re just dying for communication with another human. Maybe it’s a chance to say, “Okay, where do I want to go in my professional life? Where do I want to take my business? What plans do I want to jot down that will really take things to the next level when things get back to normal,” which all the experts say, at some point, life will get back to some semblance of normal, maybe it’s a new normal, but there are always, or very often, there are opportunities amid the challenges, personally and professionally where we can take advantage of it
Warwick F:
And so when crucibles happen, there are typically those opportunities to turn a challenge into something that can be beneficial. So it’s learning those tools and exercising that muscle memory so that fear has less of a hold and we can reduce the fear and see those challenges as opportunities we can actually take advantage of. So exercising that muscle memory on our mindset, that’s probably the single most important thing we can do when faced with a crucible like this.
Gary S:
That is an excellent place for us to wrap up our conversation today. I want to reiterate to the listener before I summarize what we heard today, that we are talking about, Warwick and I are talking about the challenge of the fear of the unknown, why it’s so powerful, why it’s so fundamental as a fear. We are talking about this in the context right now, as we record this of the COVID-19 pandemic, but that’s not the only thing we’re ever going to be afraid of that involves the unknown. The things that we’ve talked about here were relevant prior to COVID-19, and will be relevant after that because that’s just one thing. Fear of the unknown is a foundational fear.
Gary S:
One of the things I discovered in my research, H.P. Lovecraft, an author said this about fear, “The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.” He was speaking in the context of that’s what makes horror fiction and horror movies so scary is that the fear of the unknown, what’s behind that door, and those fears will always be with us. So as you look at that, whether you’re listening to this right now in 2020 or you’re listening to this five years from now, here are some key takeaways I think from our conversation that you should take with you because I think it will offer you hope.
Gary S:
The first one is to realize you are not alone, science proves you’re not alone. We talked about a study in the journal of anxiety disorders that said, “Fear of the unknown is a very real thing and a fundamental fear in life.” You’re not weak because you’re going through it, you’re in pain, and that makes you just like me and just like Warwick. So remember that as you move forward. The second thing is, Warwick said it, you can’t control what happens to you, but you can always control how you respond to it. And what Warwick exhorted us to do is to be present in your life and be prepared to combat that fear and not to wait to do it.
Gary S:
To combat that fear and do it quickly is one of the best ways to keep it from just… We talked about endless chains of what ifs going on, it’s like weeds growing. Go get rid of those weeds early, combat it early so it doesn’t consume your thinking, and you can move forward to what comes next. And then I think the last takeaway that is really important is, head on over to crucibleleadership.com, and look in the blog section for the blog that Warwick wrote most recently on Choosing Hope: Eight Tips to Move Beyond Fear. Warwick unpacks in greater detail some of the things he talked about in our podcast today to help you find ways to combat the fear and combat it early. Again, that’s crucibleleadership.com, and the blog is titled Choosing Hope: Eight Tips to Move Beyond Fear.
Gary S:
Well, thank you for spending the time with us today listeners. Not the most pleasant conversation to have at the outset, but again, in Crucible Leadership with Beyond The Crucible, our goal is to talk about difficult moments, to talk about those things that can be paralyzing to us in some cases, but not to talk about them so that we can just commiserate with one another, but to talk about them so that we can, to use Warwick’s excellent words, we can combat the effects of those crucible experiences. We can combat the effects, and in this case of fear of the unknown, and we can move beyond it.
Gary S:
And the reason that we want to move beyond it is because even though it feels right now like this could be the end of your story, that this could be, “This is it, I’m convinced that whatever I’m thinking might happen is going to be really, really, really bad and it’s going to have a lifelong negative effect in our life.” We talk to people all the time on this podcast who’ve had that experience because something’s happened to them and they felt that way, but they’ve pushed through, they’ve learned the lesson of their crucible. They found out what it is that’s on the other side, they’ve pushed through, they’ve combated the fear, and they’ve emerged on the other side in a better place with, as Warwick said, opportunity that they see and they seize.
Gary S:
So always remember your crucible experiences are painful, your fears are real, but they’re not the end of your story. They are in fact, they can in fact, and they are often, if you really press in, they’re not the end of your story, they’re the beginning of a new chapter in your story that leads to something far more joyous than fear is fearful, and that is a life of significance.
His father died when he was 9. Not long after, his mother’s drug addiction forced him out of his home to live with his grandparents. Money was tight, school was not his strong suit, and by his late teens Trent Griffin-Braaf was running with the wrong crowd. By 19, he was serving 4-12 years in prison for selling drugs. But he tells Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax that when he had to attend his grandmother’s funeral in shackles, unable to hug grieving loved ones because of the chains, he decided he would not allow being locked up to be his legacy. He seized the academic opportunities prison offered, and when he was paroled after three years he dedicated himself to learning all he could to build a life he could be proud of. He landed a job at a hotel cleaning toilets, spent hours soaking up from co-workers the ins-and-outs of their jobs — and in a few years had become the hotel’s general manager. But he had a grander vision — and risked all he had achieved to launch an airport shuttle serving Schenectady, N.Y.’s hotels. The business took off, and continues to grow: It now serves former inmates in the area not only with assistance in getting to and from work, but helps them find work that will allow them to build their own lives of significance. What has his journey taught him? “I believe in my heart that from doing good you get good,” he says.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome, everybody, to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. You have clicked play, clicked subscribe, pushed the button, made your phone start playing audio on a podcast that deals in crucible experiences. Crucible experiences are those events in life that can change the trajectory of your life. They’re painful. They’re traumatic. You don’t know why they happen to you. They can leave you feeling sometimes like you just want to lie in bed and bury your head and not move on. They’re things that are failures, setbacks, traumas, tragedies, those kinds of things that just knock you off balance.
Gary S:
But here’s the good news. We talk about those things, not so we can wallow in them, not so we can stay there, but we talk about them so that we can look for ways to get beyond them. One of the things that we do is interview people who have had crucible experiences that were quite traumatic, that were quite a bit of a setback, that changed the course of their lives, but they have bounced back from those crucible experiences and they are now living a new and fulfilling chapter in their lives. Our purpose in talking to folks like our guest today, who we’ll introduce in just a moment, our purpose in doing that is to bring hope to listeners, no matter what your circumstances. If you’ve had a crucible, you can glean hope from the conversations we have here.
Gary S:
To guide that conversation, as always, is the architect, the founder, the Lego master, if you will, of the build that is Crucible Leadership, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, we’ve got a good show today, I think, that’s really going to touch people.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Good to be here, Gary, and great to have Trent here.
Trent B:
Hey. How you guys doing?
Gary S:
It’s great to see you, Trent. I’m going to give you the introduction you deserve.
Gary S:
The Trent that Warwick referred to is Trent Griffin-Braaf. Trent is the 36-year-old husband and father of two, and Trent was released from prison more than a decade ago. He was locked up for more than three years for selling drugs. This is a quote that Trent gave to a media outlet in Schenectady, New York, where he lives. This is what he said about that experience. “I knew I didn’t want to go back to prison, and I was willing to do whatever I had to do not to do that,” he said.
Gary S:
After release, Trent took multiple low-wage temp jobs before getting into the hotel industry. He worked his way up from cleaner to general manager of a hotel in Rotterdam in New York. When he noticed no hotel in the area offered shuttle service to the airport, he saw a business opportunity. That’s how his business, his thriving business, I might say, Tech Valley Hospitality Shuttle, was born.
Gary S:
Trent, welcome to Beyond the Crucible. Warwick, take it away.
Trent B:
Hey, guys. Thank you for having me.
Warwick F:
Well, Trent, it’s great to have you. You have a remarkable story. I’d love to hear about your story, your background, growing up, and how that led to just the crucible experience that you had. Yeah, so tell us a bit about Trent and how you grew up, and yeah, a bit about your life there.
Trent B:
I was born in The Bronx, New York. At a young age, my father passed away, when I was around nine years old. Eight or nine. Yeah, nine years old. From that point, we moved from New York City to upstate New York. That’s where we had more family at.
Trent B:
It was tough. I went from having two parents to having just my mother by herself. In due time, we found out that my mother even had some demons she was fighting off with addiction, which even caused me for a short period of my life to be living with my grandparents. It was a lot of change.
Trent B:
Then even once my mother came back, we were struggling to get by. I was telling my wife recently, I remember sharing a room with my mother in my teenage years, sharing a bunk bed, to be more specific. It was a battle. One thing I can say is I never felt like we had without, though. My mother did a good job of making sure the love was there.
Trent B:
Another thing I knew was I definitely didn’t want to live in poverty my whole life, so I kind of became infatuated with money at a young age and I found creative ways to make money, even lunch money. My mother would give me lunch money. I would save it until I had enough to buy a pair of the jeans and clothes. I remember going to school every day and eating everybody else’s lunch, so that way I could save mine, selling candy bars and lollipops until we got a written letter saying I couldn’t do it anymore.
Trent B:
I was always infatuated with making money, and after high school, went to college, did a semester, flunked out, just playing around, and came back home. That’s when I got introduced to the underworld, I would say. Now I’m probably 18 years old or so, and I started to just hustle and sell drugs. Everyone that I seen who had a lot of money, that’s what they were doing, and it was attainable and something you could touch. You could talk to those people, and so I did. Quickly, I went from low-level selling of narcotics to higher level pretty quickly, almost like I had a mentorship program in that.
Trent B:
But that didn’t last long. Probably a year, year and a half run of that, and then I found myself incarcerated. Never had a run-in with the law before that in my life, but because of the amounts I was selling, I ended up getting a four to 12-year prison sentence. Here you got this 19-year-old, maybe 20-year-old kid at that time, who never had any problem with the law, was scared to death, because now I’m going to prison for four to 12 years, and all I could think about was 12 years just being gone.
Trent B:
So I go to prison. I quickly learn how to adapt in that environment, but one huge blessing I had was I was accepted into a college program through Marist College through the prison I was in. That was the first time in my adulthood that I seen I could really get good grades. I was the top of the class. I took pride in it, and I started to really have a passion for learning and education. That’s when I really started to read a lot more. I never, in prison, tried to make plans of what I was going to do next because I really didn’t know what challenges were in front of me, but I just knew that I wanted to prepare myself and be able to be the best version of me once I was released.
Trent B:
Oh, go ahead.
Warwick F:
Yeah, that’s a remarkable story. Take us back to your childhood, because obviously you’re married and have kids, and your kids, I’m sure, are growing up very differently than you grew up.
Trent B:
Definitely.
Warwick F:
They probably know something about how you grew up, but they can’t understand. They can’t relate. I’m sure you’re grateful that they can’t relate or understand, but I’m sure you’re trying to love them unconditionally, care for them, not just give them food and shelter, but emotional support, encouragement, “You can be whoever you want to be,” all of the things that any parent wants to do.
Warwick F:
Obviously, your dad died at a young age. He wasn’t able to provide a positive male role model. Your mother, I’m assuming, probably had a good heart, but with the drugs, it takes that out of the loop a bit. Talk about how you’re growing up, and did you have any positive role models, whether it’s mother, grandparents, cousins, somebody that gives you hope? Were there any positive role models there?
Trent B:
Definitely. I have a very tight-knit family, even to this day. My mother, she has four sisters. I know they all speak on a daily basis. The family group chats. My grandparents. My uncles. I had an uncle who passed away since, Uncle Odell, who I was really close with. My grandfather. Definitely had a lot of good role models.
Trent B:
Even my mother. Once she even got through her demons, I seen her climb in from an entry-level position to being a vice president of a company. I seen her go on to retire from the state as one of the top budget analysts. I’ve seen the growth even from that, and that was something I’ve always been able to pull from, was that strength. Again, I’m just blessed to have a very tight-knit family, even to this day. We’re not like a typical family. I can definitely say that.
Warwick F:
Wow. That’s wonderful. Through some of these challenges with losing your dad so young and a mother, good heart, but with, at the time, when you were small anyway, addiction problems, so talk about how you took a road that, in hindsight, probably wasn’t the most helpful road. There’s always a reason why. We could try and guess, but I don’t think we want to guess. Just tell us why you took that road that led to a lot of other challenges.
Trent B:
I think it was a mixture of things. For me, one, at a young age I was so motivated by money, I would do anything for it. Plus, not having a father figure there, I think just hanging out with the boys was the replacement. I would just, every day, hanging out with the guys, and that’s what we would do. I felt that love and that bond there, but definitely was not a good thing. It wasn’t good just because to even put the poison in the community and to just be bringing that negativity around, but even bigger than that, it just wasn’t good in terms of a setback.
Trent B:
Unfortunately, you could make decisions at a young age that can alter the course of your life, and that’s ultimately what I did. I put myself in that position that few rarely come out and turn into a success story from. Going to prison, more specifically, does it because then you have this criminal record, that even though you do some time, and your life is paused, but the world continues to grow and go, but even upon being released, they still hold it against you. It’s just a huge setback that if I could… I tell the youth all the time, “Learn from my mistakes and from mistakes of others. That’s a path you don’t want to take, because it is very hard to get out of.”
Warwick F:
Yeah, and I know in some states, they talk about three strikes, but I guess in some ways it’s really one strike, that for a lot of employers and a lot of people, it’s like, “Once a criminal, always a criminal.” “No, but really I’ve rehabilitated.” “We don’t want to take a chance. Stay away.” There’s that attitude, which is often not fair.
Warwick F:
Sadly, this is probably a familiar story in some ways, is that maybe you had some good relatives, but the person who’s in the home day in, day out, your dad wasn’t there, and you’re hanging out with your buddies, which, in the neighborhood, probably weren’t constructive. You want love and affirmation from somewhere, and it’s like part of being part of this group is maybe doing things that are not helpful, but I’m sure you can look back and see it. I don’t know, some people would say, “Well, it’s probably kind of inevitable in some ways, if you want to get affirmation from somewhere.” I don’t know, I can’t really think of a particularly good question here, other than… Please, go ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
I’ve got something I think is interesting. Trent, we’ve had eight to 10 folks that we’ve talked to on the podcast so far, and each of them has a crucible experience or experiences that they talk about. One of the things that strikes me about your story is how many crucible experiences came in such rapid succession. Your father passes away. Your mother has addiction problems. You have to move from where you’re from to a different city. You live with your grandparents. I read in a story that you really loved basketball, but as you put it, you stopped growing at some point too soon, and you couldn’t pursue that dream. Then you needed money, and you took a wrong turn and you end up in prison.
Gary S:
For listeners out there, I really want to key in on this, because listeners who may feel like the crucibles have never stopped coming, they keep coming, they’ve come over and over again, and I just listed off six or seven of them for you before you were out of high school or before you were out of college, before you were in your 20s, I want listeners to be able to hear you say this, so that they can find hope themselves if they’re like, “I’m done.” If ever a series of crucibles, in any guest that we’ve talked to, if ever a series of crucibles was going to be “Okay, I’m done. I can’t do this. I keep running into brick walls no matter what I do. I’m going to give up,” why didn’t Trent give up?
Trent B:
Well, I didn’t give up. A, I’m not a quitter, and in anything I do, I want to see it out. But I didn’t give up because I knew I wanted more for myself. I remember being inside the prison and talking to gentlemen who… I was a baby. They looked at me as the young pup. I remember being around some older gentlemen who… They were never coming home from prison, or there were others who were on this consistent roller coaster coming in and out. My very first day in the prison, we were walking in the tunnels, and I remember the captain said… He made an announcement, and he said he wanted to thank us for being there. He said it was because of us that his children were able to go through college and he was able to pay his mortgage, and he could guarantee that he’ll see a bunch of us continuously throughout his life and our lives.
Trent B:
That never sat well with me. I knew statistically he was right, but I didn’t want to be a part of that statistic to continue to put his family through college and to make sure his mortgage was paid. I’d rather have those problems of my own and be able to do that for my family. I was just motivated to not be stuck on that consistent path, and I was really literally at one point just at my wits’ end and said, “No matter what I have to do, I won’t put myself in a situation where that can be a reality of me returning.”
Warwick F:
What’s interesting to me is often I find when people turn from a crucible experience, they make a decision. They make a choice. Now, you could’ve said, which I think would be quite justified, “Hey, a lot of this is not my fault. Not my fault that my dad died. I grew up in a neighborhood where, to hang out with any kind of buddies, many of them aren’t going to be on the right track. Was that my fault? I wanted money to get out of there. What other options are there? Not too many. I go to prison. People are going to see me as this criminal forever.”
Warwick F:
You could go into “This is not my fault. It’s not fair,” and be angry. “Why should I try? Because life in the world continues to work against me.” Yet life doesn’t have to be fair for you to say, “Yeah, it wasn’t fair. A lot of things weren’t right, but I’m going to move on. I’m not going to get anger and resentment stop me from moving on.” Talk about how you decided not to say everything was fine and okay, but not let resentment, anger pull you down and say, “I’m not going to let that pull me down. I’m going to move forward.” How did you get off that resentment bandwagon and get into “I’m moving forward”?
Trent B:
Oh, I remember clearly. I don’t know the date, but I remember clearly talking to a buddy of mine and I just told him, I said… Even upon being released and coming back, I was still taking some risks that could’ve landed me back in jail, just chasing fast money. But I remember specifically one day talking to a buddy of mine, and I said, “Bro, I’m not ever going to sell drugs again. I don’t care what I’ve got to do. I’m never, ever doing this again. I can’t.” Literally, from that day, I never did, and that was never, ever again.What got me to that point was the scare of a long-term incarceration. That’s literally what got me together, by seeing individuals that I know, who I was actually incarcerated with, come home around the same time I did and then go back for 10, 12-year sentences. I couldn’t do it.
Trent B:
The ironic thing is it’s two different worlds, like you said. In one world, you’re crucified for this. For going to jail, you can’t get a job. But then in another world, you’re glorified, because you went to prison and you didn’t tell on anybody. It’s a weird mixture, but I had to disassociate myself from that and being that prideful guy of “Yeah, I didn’t. Look at me,” and have my chest out, and really humble myself to the point where, you know what, I’m willing to take these temp jobs and do whatever I have to do. That actually began the next stage of my life, was removing myself from other negativity, humbling myself to the maximum, and taking these temp jobs, taking jobs where I’m making literally minimum wage, I’m working all day long, but going there every single day and working as hard as I possibly could and putting my best foot forward.
Gary S:
That’s a great pivot point. That’s when things turned around for you. But one of the things I read in one of the stories that I looked at, Trent, which really fascinated me, there was a story that said what really helped you in that turning point was that your first daughter was on the way and you missed her birth. I want listeners to hear… Normally, what Warwick and I will do, because we’re both obsessive about this, if there’s any background noise at all when we’re recording, we’ll tell the producers on the back end, “Take that out. There’s a hum in the radiator.” But as we’ve been talking, it’s been beautiful because I hear your family sitting around having conversation, and I hope we don’t take that out, because that family was the thing that led to that turnaround that you just described, where you said, “I will take these jobs because I’m going to create a life, not just for me, but for my family.” Does that strike a chord with you, Warwick, as you hear that?
Warwick F:
Yeah. Trent, I’d love to hear the role that your family, and while you were in prison, just talk about that fact when helping you bounce back and give you motivation.
Trent B:
Two things happened in prison that changed my life forever, one being I lost my grandmother. While I was serving that four to 12-year sentence, I lost my grandmother. I had a conversation with her the night before she passed. She told me she was dying, and it was hard. But going to the funeral with my hands and my feet shackled, seeing my family like that and not even really being able to hold them the way we normally would and embrace each other, that was heartbreaking. That was literally heartbreaking for me.
Trent B:
Then the second was, like you were saying, Gary, I had missed my oldest daughter’s birth, because during that time before the transaction, before I said I’m never doing this again, I found myself rearrested and fighting a new case, which ultimately was thrown out for illegal search and seizure. But during that time, my daughter was born. I got incarcerated a month before my wife had her, so I missed that. I got her name tattooed across my chest right here. She’s the only one, and that’s the reason why.
Trent B:
Yeah, those two things just told me, “This can’t be my life. I can’t allow this to be my life. I’m not going to miss out on my children’s lives.” Sometimes me and my wife, we reflect on that. My oldest daughter today is 11 years old. She’ll be 12 next month. If I didn’t beat that case, they were offering me 12 years. Ultimately, I would just be coming home right around now. Our life today would be nonexistent. The company would be nonexistent.
Trent B:
We actually have three daughters. The youngest, she’s 18 months. That’s probably why you didn’t see it in the other stuff. I wouldn’t even have my other two daughters if I would’ve continued to possibly gamble my life in those ways. The big thing I realized was my motivation was money, but life is more important than money. That was a pivot point, and it was the point of no return at that point.
Warwick F:
I imagine as you’re going through this, being in chains at your grandmother’s funeral and then missing your oldest daughter’s birthday, you probably thought, “Well, I know what it’s like to grow up without a dad,” and you probably said to yourself, “That’s not going to be my kids. I’m going to be there for them. I’m going to help them learn to ride a bike, be there at their recitals, be there at their football, baseball games. I’m going to help coach. I’m going to be present. When they said, ‘Hey, a kid beat me up at school’ or ‘I got a bad grade,’ I’m going to be there to console them, to advise them, to say, ‘Hey, that’s okay. Tomorrow is another day.’ I’m going to be there.” That had to have been a huge motivation, saying, “My kids will grow up differently than I did,” right?
Trent B:
Definitely. 100%. Me and my wife, we talk about it. We have similar upbringings in terms of single-family households, and one thing we are both fully committed to is assuring that we have a family, because that’s one thing we both felt we didn’t have in the household. I couldn’t agree more.
Warwick F:
I want to just shift a bit to what you’re doing professionally. One of the amazing things, you started work in cleaning and eventually working up to being general manager of a hotel, which that in itself just feels like a miracle, given where you grew up and prison and all. But there are some people, again, that have this attitude of “The world owes me. I didn’t deserve to lose a dad or to have a mother that at some point had addiction issues.” Yet you felt like, “Hey, I will do whatever it takes, no matter how low the job is.” It feels like there’s a sense of humility in your story, “I don’t care whether life is fair or not fair. I’m going to do whatever it takes, no matter how humbling or even humiliating.” A lot of people need to hear that, as they might feel like the world owes them or “I’m too good for…” Talk about your attitude as you started to work your way up.
Trent B:
The attitude, again, it was humble. I did have to humble myself completely. I was someone who was known for being kind of flashy, having nice cars, jewelry, girls, stuff like that. Once I made that decision and dove fully into “I’m never going to do this again, and I’m going to do whatever it takes to be successful just working hard,” that’s what it became. I actually isolated myself from everyone.
Trent B:
In the midst of all of this that was going on, as I was transitioning at working and scrubbing toilets by day working in the hotels, at night I was actually throwing parties. I would throw these big concert series in different venues. I was actually exploring my entrepreneur spirit at that point, but socially distancing myself from everyone at the same time. I would do this. Not too many people even knew who was throwing these parties. I wasn’t out social about it, but I was starting to build a reputation and a brand for myself in the club world, club scene, in terms of the owners. But at work, I was humbling myself enough to clean those toilets every single day.
Trent B:
There was some nights… I remember there was a night I made like $23,000 doing an after-party with Kevin Hart, but then the very next day, here I am scrubbing toilets in a hotel, being told if I could bring someone coffee. I really learned to humble myself to the highest level during this transition. The one thing that I was more so focused on was being the best form of me at every single thing I did. So-
Gary S:
And-
Trent B:
Go right ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
One of the ways that you did that, when you and I talked earlier, is that, yes, you started out scrubbing toilets, but when you were finished scrubbing toilets, what did you do? You were out talking to the front desk clerk. You were learning as much as you could about that business, right?
Trent B:
That’s right. In everything I did, I started to always just continue to learn. I think that college in prison started that for me. I would go to work. I would work with the front desk staff at night, and she would train me on how to check people in, how to answer the phones. I would come home, if I wasn’t throwing an event, and me and my wife, she would be studying me on the language. How do you check someone in? What’s the proper way to do it? That way, I was preparing myself for the opportunity, and the opportunity came.
Trent B:
I was given the opportunity to be a front desk clerk for the Marriott. Once I got that role, I started to aim on, how do you be a good manager? I started to read books on management. My wife would teach me different management skills. Next thing you know, I get that position. Now I’m the front desk manager. I’m rocking and rolling. The next thing was, how do I become the assistant manager of the hotel? I start to educate myself on that, and all the way until I’m the operations manager.
Trent B:
But every single night, I’m going home, I’m learning the language, I’m learning what a P&L is, I’m learning… I was self-taught every single step of the way, but I was also hands-on every single step of the way. I think I got the best kind of practice you could possibly get, and that’s something I encourage everyone I talk to, “When you go to work, there’s opportunities in front of you. It’s what do you want, and what are you willing to do?” I think the more you learn to give of yourself, the opportunities are given to you that you’re looking for.
Trent B:
That became my approach, was just to stay two steps ahead in everything I was doing and to have goals. Once I started to see if you have goals, you can actually achieve your goals, or if you don’t achieve them, get really close to achieving them, that became my new way of life.
Warwick F:
There’s a few strands I think it would be really useful for listeners to understand. There are three words I think I’ve heard you say, the importance of humility, the importance of learning, and the importance of having goals. My sense is they’re tied together, so talk a bit about just why, in terms of bouncing back from just some incredibly difficult circumstances, why humility and a heart to learn is so important.
Trent B:
Well, I think you have to humble yourself to understand you don’t know everything, and humble yourself to be willing to tell and express that to other individuals, and then not only tell it, but then listening to the advice given and act on the advice given. It’s a lot of steps in admitting you don’t know something, but I think the sooner people start to admit that, the sooner you also start to grow. I think you have to humble yourself, you have to be willing to accept advice from others, and you have to be willing to work on it if it’s ultimately what you want to do. Like you said, they definitely go hand in hand.
Warwick F:
One of the interesting things in life is there are some people that are jealous of your success. If somebody is down, they want to push them even further. But there are other… Humanity is a mix of good and bad, and there are some people, more than one would think, that when you humble yourself and say, “Look, I don’t really understand this. What does it take to be an assistant manager? What does it take to be a general manager?” there are some people who probably said, “Trent, thanks for asking. I’d love to help you.” You’re probably thinking, “Really? Somebody in the world wants to help me? Wow, that’s kind of new. Cool.”
Trent B:
You are-
Warwick F:
Go ahead.
Trent B:
No, I was going to say you are so right. That’s what I try to express when I talk to a lot of the youth, and even formerly incarcerated individuals. People who have seen any bit of success want to share that. It’s just a matter of them knowing that the person is really going to act on what they’re sharing and they’re not wasting their time. But if you’re able to prove that you’re willing to do what it takes, I find that anyone who’s successful, if you ask them, “Hey, how’d you do it?” who doesn’t want to share how they did it and hopefully help someone through their story?
Warwick F:
Because part of the American dream is clawing your way up from nothing or not much. There’s something in the American spirit that when somebody says, “Hey, I’d like to be successful. Can you help me?” there are a bunch of people that say, “Well, of course.” That’s America at its best, is helping people be successful. I’m from Australia originally. Every country has its positives and negatives.
Warwick F:
Talk a bit about how you went from being in hotels and you had this vision, this dream of shuttles and hospitality, and tie that in with goals, because goal-setting is so important. I don’t know how many people there are that have grown up the way you have that are not just humble and willing to learn, but set goals. It’s like, “Goals? My goal is to eat. What are you talking about? A roof over my head. Goals in business? Come on, what are you talking about here, Trent?” Talk about how you went from this hospitality and hotel, and you had this vision, you had this goal. How did that come about, this whole idea for shuttles and hospitality?
Trent B:
The whole idea for the shuttle and the hospitality just came about just from seeing a need. I sat on the Schenectady Hospitality Board at the time, and we would always joke about how bad the taxi service was, and we had a casino coming. I said in one of the meetings, half-jokingly but half not, “So what if I had a shuttle service? Would you guys utilize it for your hotels to bring people to the airports or the casino?” People in the room were like, “Yeah, we would, definitely, Trent. We know you. Why wouldn’t we use it?” That’s literally what sparked it for me like, “All right.”
Trent B:
I went to the drawing board and started to put it together and put my business plan together, and we built it up. We identified that there was definitely a need, and being that we had a couple of hotels that were willing to give us a shot, I said the worst that could happen is we go under and I still become a GM somewhere. Actually, the original goal was for me to continue to be the GM of the hotel and run the business at the same time, but things quickly took a turn from that. We learned how to pivot quickly in business, as well as it’s also just shown me in life how we have to be open with what’s going on right now and be willing to live with it and understand we’ve got to let go and let God in a lot of circumstances.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah, I want to talk about current circumstances here in a minute. You had this vision that the shuttles for some of these hotels weren’t that great, and you could provide a business partnering with the hotels. That was a gap in the market, right?
Trent B:
Yeah, that’s right.
Warwick F:
How did you convince the hotels to partner with you and “We can do this”? You’ve got to raise funds to get… How many shuttles do you have now?
Trent B:
Today, we’re up to 10.
Gary S:
Oh my goodness.
Warwick F:
Wow. That’s amazing. How did you go from just an idea, convince the hotels, to partner with them, get some funding? How’d that all happen?
Trent B:
I started working on the business plan. I actually went to a community-based organization to help me on my business plan, being I never did one. I got the business plan going. From the business plan, financing, only thing I really did was I bet on myself. Me and my wife, we had a conversation, and I said, “Babe, if I went to college, odds are I would have about a $50,000 tuition bill right now that would be due.” I said, “If I invest this same amount of money in myself right now, there’s a good chance that we could make more money. We’re already in the world.” Like I was saying, I was selling her on “Hey, I got the money from the job anyway. If it doesn’t work, it just doesn’t work. We lose whatever investment we make with the car.”
Trent B:
So I gambled on myself, and I took a shot. This is pre-Uber, Lyft. The taxis were terrible. I went for it and got six hotels from jump to say they would use us. This was in February we went live, the same day as the new casino. Business was booming. The phone would not stop ringing. It was just pandemonium. I was excited. We were doing great. Then in June, Uber and Lyft came, and the phone stopped ringing completely. Now we’re seven months in to the business. Well, February was when we went live, so really we were four months in, but I established it in December.
Trent B:
It became a moment of “Hey, Trent, I could stay in the hotel.” The owners of the hotel didn’t want me to leave. They wanted me to stay. It became “Well, I could stay and just wrap up shop, and we had a good run. Or do I really want to see this thing out?” I decided I wanted to see it out.
Trent B:
So we transitioned to just having bigger vehicles during that time. I started focusing on getting buses, vans, things that Uber and Lyft couldn’t do in the moment. Then what I made our relationships with the hotel look like was, instead of airport shuttles all of the time, what we wanted to focus on was corporate groups, corporate outings, corporate transportation to work, as well as weddings, because a lot of wedding parties come to hotels in the summer months. That’s exactly what we did.
Trent B:
We partnered with a bunch of these hotels. We went from that six to nine hotels to today we work with over 50 hotels. It definitely took off. Now we actually do transportation for school districts, so we have some school buses. We have a party bus. We do a lot with weddings. We work with wedding venues, specifically. We partner with them. But what we’ve transitioned to as of late has been workforce transportation, helping individuals get to and from work.
Warwick F:
One of the things I think it’s really helpful for listeners to hear what Trent is saying, because there’ll be a number of listeners that have small businesses, and inevitably in any business you’ll face obstacles, but yet, I think as we said earlier, you saw the obstacle as an opportunity. It’s like, “Okay, I’m not going to let this get me down. Okay, Uber and Lyft has come. There’s always going to be changes in the market. Okay, so how do I respond?” You saw that there was a gap in the market by having bigger shuttle buses with wedding parties, corporate groups. You didn’t let that say, “Okay, game over. How do I compete against Uber and Lyft? I can’t.” You said, “Okay, let’s retool. Let’s refocus.”
Warwick F:
For any small business owner, you don’t give up. You say, “Okay, one avenue of revenue may have stopped, but let’s think of others.” You had this creative, never say die, “Okay, let’s keep at it.” If you’re a small business owner, learn from what Trent is saying. There is really valuable input. Go ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
Trent, I want to ask you about one aspect of the business that you talked to me about offline, because early on in this conversation, you mentioned that you were motivated by money. That was one of the things that led you into selling drugs, that having money when you didn’t have it was kind of a thing for you. It was a lure for you. Now you’ve got a business that’s successful, and one of the things that you’re doing, and I want you to talk about it in a second in detail, is offering rides in that transportation area to work with some folks who used to be incarcerated, like you were. I think what that speaks to is you are living now a life of significance. You’ve discovered significance.
Gary S:
I think if I ask you this question, I know what your answer is going to be, but I’m going to ask it anyway so the listener can hear it. You’ve chased money. You’ve chased significance. What’s more important to you? What’s more meaningful in the long run?
Trent B:
Definitely, significance. Definitely. Hands down. Even to this day, I have a successful company. I was still more liquid when I was doing things in the street than I am to this day, but I definitely wasn’t living the life that I’m living to this day. I didn’t have this beautiful home. I own multiple homes now. I had to learn finance, too, to be honest with yourself and learn the importance of credit and all sorts of things like that.
Trent B:
At this point, I look at money as almost… It’s a necessity for life, but like I was telling my brother the other day, the main thing money gives you is just options, I think, and allows you to take advantage of opportunities. We were speaking more so to… I was just telling him we booked a couple of vacations for the family for next year and the year out, three trips, and I told him how great of a deal it was. But as I explained to him, I said, “That’s the only difference. Money allows you to take advantage of opportunity.”
Trent B:
For me, that doesn’t move me anymore. I’m more so moved on legacy and being able to… I want my name to mean something when I’m gone. I want my children, every time they look at me, I want them to think of me as a superhero almost, and that doesn’t come from money. That comes from teaching them the intangibles, anything is possible, and instilling in them the things that I’ve learned over the years, and so that way, they don’t have to take the same paths, but they could get a little cheat in life and have a better start.
Trent B:
Definitely, money is going to be made. They print new money every day. Deals are made every day. I think it’s to be expected, if you want to go make some money, you can go out there and make it. I don’t think money is the end-all, be-all like I once did.
Warwick F:
I think we’re about to touch on it, but when you talk about significance and legacy, and I want to hear some more detail, you’ve used your whole shuttle bus service, in a way, to give back to those who’ve had some challenges like yourself. Just talk a bit more about how you’ve used that to help others.
Trent B:
What I identified when I was working in the temp agencies was a lot of individuals on parole, the biggest issue we faced was we had to take public transportation. So I joined some boards to gain some knowledge, and one of the local boards I sit on is the capital region’s transportation committee. Basically, on that board, we discuss the public transportation in the capital region of New York State. They’ve been able to help me to identify that those who rely on the bus, 20 minutes on a bus in comparison to 20 minutes in your car where we live is night or day. In a bus 20 minutes, they’re still in the same typical area, but in a car, you can actually drive yourself to an area where you could have a job making $20 or better an hour.
Trent B:
What I started to do was realize there’s industries that are in these areas, and I would imagine they need bodies. One of the biggest problems is there was no transportation that could connect the bodies to these industries. What I’ve done is I’ve gone into a lot of these, what are they, distribution centers and I’ve been able to try to educate them on the benefits of hiring ex-offenders, A, the tax breaks that they get, but then on top of it, helping them to understand that if you give an individual a chance, that’s all they’re really looking for. These guys and young ladies will work their tails off because all they wanted was this opportunity to have a livable wage, and now they have it.
Trent B:
So we started to actually transport people to and from these locations, and it’s been highly successful. I have a lot of companies reaching out to see how they can get involved, if I can work with their company. I work with the Department of Labor to help expand what they’re able to do. It’s just been really, really great. We did a job fair right before the corona thing took off, and we were able to help 30 individuals who just came home from prison get jobs making $20 an hour.
Gary S:
That’s fantastic.
Trent B:
That’s what I said. I felt good. Then another thing we started to do was, last Mother’s Day, we did a free shuttle to the women’s prison, because I just had the idea of how important visits were for me, and I was blessed to get a visit literally every weekend. So we did a free shuttle for individuals who might want to go and visit an incarcerated mother in prison. It was highly successful.
Trent B:
But then with that, I started to look into what options there was for prison transportation, because I was like, “That speaks directly to me.” I started to do a lot more research and I started to find out recidivism rates drop by visits, and how most offenders end up over 100 miles from where the crime took place. Most of these individuals come from poverty, meaning to get 100 miles is tough for a lot of people if you could barely pay your bills. So I started to put these things together, and I put a service in place in upstate New York where we’ve been able to help individuals go from 20 hours’ commute time in the state of New York, plus over $200 a trip, to we’ve made the price points affordable. $50, $60, $70, $80 is the most we charge for a person to go visit a loved one in prison. Then, once a month, we actually do a free prison shuttle service for the community, where we identify just one specific prison and anyone could go for free. We’ve been doing that since the beginning of this year, and that’s been really, really great just to help individuals.
Trent B:
Now we’re starting to get a little steam behind it, so we’re getting organizations that want to actually help educate the families on what resources are out here. I’m starting to get more businesses in line, also, to the places that we actually work with and partner with, so we can start to educate people, “Hey, not only can we’ll get you to the prison for free, but the big thing is there’s resources out here to help your loved ones and help you. We also can help if you guys need an actual job or if they need employment when they come home, which they will.” It’s come, definitely, a 180. A lot of the problems that I lived through, I’m blessed to now be able to help others get through those same situations a little easier.
Warwick F:
That’s what I was saying. I want to talk a little about legacy in a second, because I know our time is coming to a close. You’ve got former inmates. You’ve got loved ones of inmates. Talk about the feedback you get from them. You’re making a life-changing difference. What feedback do you get from these former inmates and family members of what you’re doing for their lives?
Trent B:
Man, that’s some of the best stuff. Honestly, I don’t feel anything but love from anyone, let it be people who read about me in the newspaper to people’s lives that we touch like that. It seems like wherever I go, it’s just people are just showing me so much love and appreciation for what I’m doing. I hear it all the time, like, “Hey, I wouldn’t have been able to go see my mother” or “Hey, we got these guys who they’re just really thankful to have this new source of income.”
Trent B:
What I’ve been doing, too, on top of that is I’ve used my platform to now go to local banks, and I have them partner with us. The goal is to try to help these individuals who take the shuttle service, within eight months, also educate them on how to have a budget, live off a budget, save their money so they can buy a car, so then they can expand their options from there. I don’t want them to become reliant on anything we’re doing. The goal is to continually just help and just push us forward.
Trent B:
Yeah, so legacy, I feel it when I go outside. People are just so passionate about giving me thanks, and I love it.
Warwick F:
As I think about legacy, summarizing this, you grew up in a very tough upbringing, neighborhood, father dying young, mother, addiction issues, prison, but the legacy you’re leaving for your kids, for those you come in touch with, former inmates, family members, the community, it’s a very different legacy. It’s a legacy of pulling yourself up, making different choices, loving your kids, your wife, caring for those in need. You’re somebody that your kids, I’m sure, are very proud of-
Trent B:
I hope so.
Warwick F:
… that they can say, “You know what, this is who my dad is.” It’s remarkable. It’s a miracle. I’m sure they say to their friends, I don’t know if your daughters say it to you, but “You know what, in some sense, I’d like to be kind of like my dad, because he is a role model.” I’m sure there are other people that know you who say, “You know what, Trent, I want to be somebody like that, that sets goals, yes, provides a comfortable life for their family and vacations, but gives back, helps the community. Trent is somebody. Now, that’s a role model. That’s somebody that you want to be like.”
Warwick F:
If that’s your legacy, which I feel like maybe it is, when all is said and done, that’s not a bad legacy, right? To give to people? Isn’t that a legacy that you can be proud of, and you think hopefully your kids can be proud of?
Trent B:
Yeah, 100%. That’s just to show you how you can easily go 180. I was the kid that would do anything for money, but like you said, now it’s more so “How do you help? How do you give back?” That’s why our call was delayed. Right now, we’re actually delivering groceries for families that just are in need. Me and my daughter, we were out at my office just doing some work in there cleaning up and got the call, so I just shot over and brought a family some groceries. That’s literally the legacy. How can we help? How can we be of service? My thing is, the more lives you touch, the more you could be of service to others, I just know good things are going to come, and that’s all a part of legacy.
Warwick F:
I should ask real quick… Sorry, Gary. I’d be remiss of saying, how are you handling the whole coronavirus with your business? Is that impacting you a lot? That’s a huge obstacle that’s affecting the whole planet.
Trent B:
Definitely. We’ve lost a lot of revenue, conferences, weddings. We do daily services with Amtrak that we had to stop doing. We lost a lot of business. I did have to make some tough decisions and lay some off. I’ve been able to keep some individuals on. Even the individuals we keep on, it’s more so just for the giving at this point. But at the same time, I believe in my heart that from doing good, you get good. If we keep doing good things, I think these will create new relationships, which in the future will create new opportunities. So let’s just continue to help out at this time and do whatever we can for the community, and the community will take care of us.
Gary S:
Well, this is, as I say on every episode… I’m going to say it differently this time, though. This is the time that we normally say, “It’s time to land the plane.” But given what we’re talking about, let’s put on the parking brake instead of land the plane, and let’s wrap up our discussion on that point.
Gary S:
A couple things. One, Trent, you are a very humble man. You’ve talked about that here. I’m a PR guy, so I don’t have to be humble about you, and I can point out to our listeners that you were recently named one of the top 40 business people in Schenectady under 40, so congratulations for that well-deserved recognition.
Trent B:
Thank you very much.
Gary S:
I also want to encourage listeners, we have a YouTube channel. Crucible Leadership has a YouTube channel. If you’ve listened to this on a podcast app, I encourage you to watch it and listen to it on YouTube if you can do that again. Here’s why. I want you to see Trent’s face, as we can do as we’re recording this, when he talks about significance, when he talks about legacy, when he talks about the reactions he gets from the people he helps. The smile on his face lights up this room, lights up this screen. This is a man who not only loves what he does, but he loves the folks that he’s touching. That is something I think, for all of us who’ve been through crucible experiences, to see that can help us have the courage, have the ability to take the next step forward.
Gary S:
There’s a few things, I think, as we do close here, I want to leave listeners with. The first one is this idea that money is great, money is fine, money does make the world go around to some extent, everybody needs it, but where those smiles showed up most on Trent’s face was when he was talking about significance. The idea that a man who was so focused on money and flash, his own word, is now so focused on helping others is a beautiful thing. That’s available to all of us. Please process that and live that, listener.
Gary S:
Second thing that Trent said in every communication I’ve had with him, he has said this. He said it several times here. One key to overcoming your crucible experiences and getting on a path to a life of significance is simply don’t ever give up. Know that there’s something out there. Regardless of what circumstance you’re in right now, find something, grab something out there that you want more. It doesn’t have to be as dramatic as prison, and you want to live a “normal” and fulfilling life out of it. It can be something far, far less dire and far more simple. Whatever your crucible is, find that thing that gives you hope and grab it and go for it. That’s the second point.
Gary S:
The third point, I think, is interesting here. In real estate, they tell you the first rule of real estate is… There’s three rules of real estate, location, location, location. One of the things that Trent has said throughout this conversation is that there are three elements to overcoming your crucible experience and bouncing back, and that is learn, learn, learn. He dedicated himself to learning, whether it was a formal education program while in prison, whether it was running from scrubbing toilets to going and talking to the front desk clerk in that hotel, to coming home and his wife teaching him and they’re talking about things about business. He learned every step of the way. You can learn yourself through a crucible. That is a crucial thing to hang on to for everybody.
Gary S:
Then the last thing, as you’re doing that, as you are learning, set goals. As you’re learning, set the goals of what your learning is going to bring you to. Trent did that. Trent is living out those goals. Even though things right now in the time that we’re having this conversation have created some other crucibles, he’s pushing through that with confidence, with hope, and I just looked at him on the screen, if you’re watching it on YouTube, and a smile. That’s the kind of thing that we need.
Gary S:
All of you, thank you for joining us on this episode, this truly special episode of Beyond the Crucible. Thank you, Trent, for being here with us.
Gary S:
I encourage you, listener, if you want to help us out, if you want to do a favor for us, so that stories like Trent’s can get told and more people can get inspired by them, on the app that you’re listening to this right now, click subscribe. Share this link with other people, so that the kind of hope that’s being offered here to help people get beyond their crucibles can be put into the earbuds, if you will, of more and more people. You can do that by visiting us at crucibleleadership.com. You can find out more information. But you can simply click subscribe on the app that you’re listening to right now.
Gary S:
If you want to know more about us, as I said, you can visit crucibleleadership.com. Warwick has a blog. We have some other resources there that can be helpful to you.
Gary S:
Until the next time that we’re all together here on Beyond the Crucible, we encourage you to remember what Trent’s life has proven, that those times of crucibles can feel like the worst times in your life, they can knock you off your feet, they can knock you down, you can feel like you don’t want to get up, but if you get up and if you dedicate yourself to learning the lessons of your crucible, those crucible moments can be far, far more than the end of your story. They can be the start of a new chapter in a new story that will lead you to exactly where Trent just told us for the last hour he has gotten to, a life of significance, and that’s a beautiful thing. Thanks for being here.
As general manager of Major League Baseball’s Cincinnati Reds, Brad Kullman was living his childhood dream of making a living, and a life, in the game he loved. But after being passed over for permanent promotions and finally being let go, he moved past the devastation to realize he was free to pursue a passion that had become even more important to him: using the analytical tools he had pioneered as a pro sports scout and executive to help everyday men and women unlock the insights of their hardwired makeup. In this interview with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax, Kullman explains how standard personality tests offer insufficient help in charting a course to a life of significance for those who experience crucibles, and offers insights and resources to help listeners understand and apply the realities of how they’re wired.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Hi everybody, I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of Beyond the Crucible and I’m welcoming you here to our podcast today. I’m the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership and just want to tell you a little bit about the podcast that you dropped in on. We talk here about crucible experiences, those moments in life that can feel, well, they can feel like life maybe over. It can feel like life has stopped. It can feel like life has changed course like a river changes course in a natural disaster. But the reason that we talk about these crucible experiences, these failures, these setbacks, these traumas and these tragedies is not to dwell on the negative, is not to live in the past, is not to wallow in things that have happened to us that have been painful. We talk about these experiences because we want to offer hope and healing to people who’ve experienced them so that you can begin to move beyond it, as the title of the podcast says, and you can embrace the lessons of your crucible and you can chart a course for a life of significance.
Gary S:
All of this discussion, this whole plan for how you face a crucible experience head on and move beyond it, came from our founder Warwick Fairfax, who has experienced some of these moments himself and who is living a life of significance now beyond his crucible, and Warwick, thank you for being here today. This is going to be a very interesting episode I think.
Warwick F:
Well thanks, Gary, for introducing us and thanks so much, Brad, for being here. I look forward to a great discussion.
Gary S:
Brad is our guest. That is Brad Kullman. Brad is the founder and president of Max Q Performance, and I’m just going to give you a little bit about who Brad is. This is Brad’s bio. Extremely impressive. Brad’s a human performance specialist who has studied the brain and biomechanics for more than 25 years. In a three decade major league baseball career, he served as a high ranking executive and scout, including appointments as the interim general manager for the Cincinnati Reds on two separate occasions. As assistant general manager for the Reds, he directed the first formal R&D department, that’s research and development, in major league baseball, focusing on advances in assessing athletic potential and related development. All of that experience led him to his current career as founder and president of Max Q Performance.
Gary S:
Max Q Performance is the culmination of more than a decade of intense study and research and understanding the innate hardwired designs of people. The Max Q process delves deeply beneath the surface level symptoms of persona in order to analyze root causation, thereby creating a framework for a meaningful and substantive solution based on a person’s true indelible makeup. Brad, welcome to Beyond the Crucible.
Brad K:
Thank you for having me guys.
Warwick F:
Well, Brad again, thanks again. So a good place to start is really Beyond the Crucible. We love to hear your story and in particular your crucible moment. Could be a failure, setback. It’s typically a searing experience, and then we get onto how you got beyond that to live a life of significance, a life on purpose, serving others. But just kind of start us out with your story and your crucible moment and yeah.
Brad K:
Well, it’s a long story, but I’ll give you the Reader’s Digest version. I loved baseball. I wanted to be a baseball player when I was young, and as I got into high school I realized that if I was going to make it to the major leagues, it was probably going to be on the front office side rather than the field. So I started exploring avenues and as I got into it, I went to Ohio State, got my master’s in sports management and ended up working in the minor leagues for a few years. That was right around the time when statistics were starting to be more and more involved, and I ended up getting hired by the Cincinnati Reds and I was at the forefront of the statistical revolution, as in the late nineties increased computing power allowed us to assess performance at a much deeper level, what we call today is being routinely called analytics.
Brad K:
And so I was at the forefront of that and I worked my way up, worked hard. 12 years with the organization, never received a review from my superiors below excellent. Always got the highest grades in everything I did. They fired my boss at one point, named me interim GM and I was told I was going to be interviewed as part of the possible replacements full time, and as it came about, that was not accurate. They brought in somebody from outside the organization, didn’t even give me a chance, but I stuck with it and a couple years later they fired that guy. Made me interim GM a second time and told me once again, “You’re going to be interviewed and have a chance at this.” So I prepared all this stuff for my interview and it was a new owner that had bought the team and that’s the way things go in sports. Whoever owns the team makes the decisions. And even though as we get into detailed analysis performance with analytics for players at the highest levels of management it’s still very subjective exercise.
Brad K:
Once again, I was given a courtesy interview that was really a sham. I didn’t think, they didn’t really give me a chance to sell myself and obviously my performance had shown enough that they had me take over the organization twice during the interim and I was not real happy about that. But they went outside the organization, brought in another guy and he basically wanted to bring in some of his own people and so I was let go unceremoniously with a few other people and my lifelong … it’d been my lifelong dream. It’s what I’ve worked for for years, had done a good job and then to just be let go like that was difficult but you know, it wasn’t really probably a surprise. In some ways it was a relief, I think, because I’m not a quitter. I wouldn’t have quit because of that. I would have stuck it out, I’m sure, and been unhappy, but it allowed me to really take a step back.
Brad K:
And the interesting thing, Warwick, is what I was prepared to do was I was prepared to sell my family for this job as general manager of the Cincinnati Reds. I was going to give it everything I had, 24/7. I was willing to devote my life to this organization and my wife who stood by me so much, had three beautiful young children that she had done a great job of raising. I had already been gone a lot, but I was really ready to say, “I’m going to be gone even more because I’m giving it … this is what I work to do and it’s my dream and I’m going to give it everything I’ve got.”
Brad K:
And so as I stepped back following that, I kind of thought, “You know, is this really what God has planned for me? Is this what He wants for me?” And the interesting thing is as we were doing the statistical analysis, there was one area of player performance that we had not been able to gain any more insight with, with analytics. And that’s what we call in baseball, we call it makeup. Makeup is kind of what makes a person tick. The intangibles that make a player … two players can run the same speed, can hit with the same power, but one ends up becoming a superstar, another one flames out. What is it that is inside of them? And we tried all kinds of different personality tests and everything, and honestly the different personality tests, not one gave us any actionable, meaningful information that we could use to help develop a player, make them better, or even evaluate him to know how good he could possibly be.
Brad K:
That’s why when I was introduced to this concept of hardwired makeup, discoveries that were based on the latest advances in the hard sciences, I was blown away because it finally gave us something substantive and actionable that we could use to evaluate and develop these players. The interesting thing was even as I started using it and found it helpful from baseball executive and scouting standpoint, I find it also made a difference to me at home. I could better appreciate and understand my wife. I could better understand my kids. I saw the benefits go far beyond the playing field.
Brad K:
So as I stepped back and said, “What am I going to do with my life?” I had some other chances to get back with another team scouting, doing some things which would involve a lot of time away from home and I just decided that maybe God had me go down this path to be exposed to this and it’s my job to help take this to the world because it could help many people beyond just sports scouts. So I tried to use that as an opportunity to learn more about this and now I’ve taken it myself to share it with as many people as I can.
Warwick F:
Well, I mean that’s an amazing story, Brad. I mean, you spent your whole life since Ohio State and maybe beyond focusing on baseball. Did it feel like it was almost your life? For a person of faith, we always read in scripture about idols and I mean certainly for me growing up in a big family newspaper business, I’ll speak for myself. Yeah, I had definitely my faith in God was the cornerstone of my life, but yet Fairfax Media, the history, the dynasty, my dad, the founder who was a believer, it felt like nothing else mattered and if the company hadn’t gone under my watch, I never would have left. It would have felt betrayal. Was it an idol? In some sense, but I know that’s a weird term, maybe for some, but you know what I’m getting at. How did it feel to you, baseball, and you loved it. It was your life.
Brad K:
I still do love it, but what’s funny is before I went down, and I knew they were going to tell me in this interview and the way it went about, I knew they were going to tell me I wasn’t a finalist. I mean, I was a finalist, but I was going to be one of the final finalists and before I left, one of my friends, a coworker, he said, “Brad, calm down. You’re real upset.” I said, “You know what?” I remember specifically saying this. “Baseball does not define me.” And so I was really saying there, out loud, that if they’re going to fire me because I’m upset because of the way they treated me, then that’s the way it goes.
Brad K:
But when reality hits, I remember … what’s amazing, too, we were going to spring training a week later. My kids, we always pulled them out of school and take them down to Florida with us, and we already had our bags packed. We had shipped a bunch of equipment already on the team truck. It was already in Florida, and so I had to go home and explain to my wife, but really my small children, I had to explain to them that we’re not going to Florida, what does that all mean and it was very emotional for them.
Warwick F:
I mean, it’s kind of ironic that you mentioned analytics is something that baseball’s all into these days and you analyze player performance, you were a scout for many years, and yet when it comes time to one of the most important decisions, I would assume, a baseball team can make, which is to pick a general manager, there was precious few analytics. There was no who’s got the numbers, who has a record of performance, who has the best skills. It was just seem a personality contest rather than … I know you’re not big on personality assessments, but it almost felt like they used a personality assessment. “Oh gee, you know, it’s Monday. I don’t really feel like Brad.”
Brad K:
But they didn’t even try to use an objective personality assessment. It was a very subjective, “I like this guy. This guy’s my godson.” The decisions that are made, I was recommended to me by my buddy. So it’s just … but see, the same thing happens in business. Sometimes the top salesman, “Well, let’s make him the manager.” Well you know what? Maybe he’s great at sales and he’s not great at management and some guy that might be a great manager is doing terrible sales so he never gets considered.
Warwick F:
Right. And that is so true. So when that happened and it’s amazing you were interviewed twice and then kind of passed over and then finally let go. And it’s interesting you say that you were putting maybe baseball before family and that even though you weren’t a happy camper, that you feel like you couldn’t have got out unless you were let go… I mean you knew this really is not making sense. I mean, did you think analytically, “Why am I here?”
Brad K:
I don’t know if it didn’t make sense. It’s fun going to the ballpark every day. There’s a lot of joy in my job. I was getting paid to watch baseball games. No matter what my job was, there’s still something to be said for that. Now there’s a lot of other tasks that go into that. Everyone thinks, “Oh, you just watch baseball.” No, there’s a lot of contract negotiation things that are in any business and there’s some things that are not so much fun, but it wasn’t all bad, believe me, but it was just a lot of time and really you get to a point where what is life about? Do I want to spend my whole life … is it fair to my wife, is it fair to my family for me to be … and I know there’s a lot of, not absentee fathers, but that parents, men or women, especially men though, I think that pour themselves into their career, and they’re not at home. So what has happened is I really have found that our marriage has been strengthened through this. I mean, I’ve been able to see a lot of things with my children that I was missing out on and so it’s been a blessing in ways, but it’s easy to … I mean when you’ve wanted something since you were a kid you know and worked your butt off to do, it’s tough to-
Warwick F:
So when that all ended, maybe part of your family is thinking, “Well at least maybe we’ll be able to see more of dad,” and they probably weren’t even thinking that at the time or hopefully just feeling terrible for you, I would imagine. But what were those first few months like when it was over? Because you know you probably didn’t launch into Max Q Performance overnight. For most of us, it’s a journey. But what were those first few months like when your dream was over?
Brad K:
Well I didn’t figure it was over. I’m still not sure it’s over, that aspect. I feel I still have something to give back to baseball. I’ve been working on some stuff having to do with the hardwired makeup and baseball athletes specifically, but I assumed I would be getting back in at some point, it was just a matter of time. Actually I thought it would be time to take a step back and refresh a little bit, and I think the kids all thought it was great. “Hey, dad’s home, let’s play.” Because I was home so infrequently, whenever I was home, it’s “Play time with dad, let’s go in the back and play whiffle ball. Let’s play.” And so now it was “Let’s play every day,” and they thought that, “Gee, dad’s so much fun all of a sudden.”
Gary S:
it’s an interesting thing to hear you both talk about the aftermath of the crucible because Warwick, you’ve said in other conversations that we’ve had on this podcast that there was no way in your situation as the heir to Fairfax Media that there was no way really since the moment you were born that you were going to get out of taking over the company unless what happened happened when the company was passed from family control in the failed takeover bid that you launched. So in some sense, I’ve heard you talk about there was some relief once you’ve had a chance to process it, that that was no longer the situation you had to deal with.
Gary S:
Brad, to hear you talk about it again, not immediately afterward, but there was some sense of relief that you were able to put your attentions, your skills, your energies, your effort to something that was more fulfilling to the family, more fulfilling in some ways to being able to help others. Is that accurate from both of your perspectives?
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, to me, I do hear some commonalities in the story in that obviously Brad has loved baseball his whole life and still does, which is great. For me, I don’t know that I’d say I love Fairfax Media, but it was more just a sense of duty, founded by a strong believer who was a great husband, great dad, elder in his church, employees loved him, and he ran a great business. I mean, every area of life he was a businessmen for Christ, if you will. It was pretty much as good as it gets. So yeah, it was everything I did from Oxford to Wall Street to Harvard Business School was all about, “There’s a role I want to fulfill in life.” It had nothing to do with how am I designed, how am I wired? That was an irrelevant question to me. It was why take an assessment? It’s useless information because my path in life has been laid out.
Warwick F:
But then once I was in it and then once it was over, yes, I think you make an astute point, Gary. There was a sense of relief because I realized if you did a job requirements analysis for head of the million dollar company, it would have been a Rupert Murdoch, take charge kind of leader. And I’m more of a quiet reflective advisor. That’s kind of who I am, so my wiring couldn’t be more different than what was needed. It was an incredibly terrible match. And so afterwards, yes, it was searing, felt like I let God down, family, parents. But there was a sense that, well, who am I? It took me years to figure that out, which would be an interesting discussion about even when I took assessments, it was a bit, what do I do with all that? But it gave me the freedom to be who I was, but it wouldn’t have happened voluntarily. So that whole wiring thing, I completely resonate with, Brad, with where you’re coming from.
Gary S:
Is it true, Brad, would you say that eventually you came to a point that even though you still love baseball, you felt like you were released to go do something else that you also have great passion for?
Brad K:
Well, the thing is, and maybe this is a credit to my parents, maybe it’s a detriment. Since I was real little, I always felt I was destined for greatness. And so I thought I was going to be general manager and bring a World Series championship to the team and I’d be the toast of the town in the parade. But then as I had this kind of mid life … I wouldn’t say crisis, but this crucible moment, that it allowed me to step back and think and I thought, “What is being great in God’s world, really, about? Being general management for a baseball team, or if I could really share this insight that I believe is a window into how God truly created each of us, designing us with special talents and limitations, each person.” And so basically, I had to beg the guy that … he’d been a consultant with us that discovered this stuff, and so I said, “Look, I want to come and work with you. I want to learn all I can about this. I want to help you. The world needs to know about this.”
Brad K:
And so he almost very apprehensively said, “Okay, I guess you can come and help me.” And so I started trying to learn everything I could and shadow him around and spend as much time talking to him about it and learning all I can. And so it kind of evolved that I felt I would take this back to baseball because I knew the applications it had in baseball, but I also felt that I wanted to share it with the world. I felt that it was a more meaningful use of the rest of my days, however many God may bless me with, and that’s why I really wanted to do this.
Warwick F:
So this feels like understanding how we are wired, and I love the term you use, hardwired. It’s your mission, your purpose in life and you’ve talked a bit about it, but help us understand why is this at a very deep level, your passion, maybe even your God given passion, if you will?
Brad K:
I don’t know if that it’s my passion, but I feel like it’s my mission. It’s funny, I went to the dentist the other day and he was saying some stuff about my teeth are too tight, what they did with my orthodontia and stuff and he said my mouth is small. And I said, “Well, everyone tells me I’ve got a big mouth, so I don’t understand that.” But I am a talker. I’ve always been a talker, and the guy that made this discovery actually is not very high energy. He’s more of a reflective, very deep reflective thinker. And I think that maybe, and now as he fell ill and is not able to really share this with the world like I thought I was going to help him do, and I wonder if that maybe God has directed me down this path through sports to find out about this and then learn more of all I could and now it’s my duty to share it, to be the mouthpiece, the spokesperson to tell people because I think there’s a lot of liberation with understanding.
Brad K:
I think a lot of us think, “Why do I think this way? Why do I feel this way sometimes? Why do I act this way? Why do I perform this way?” And really, this explains the way that you’re hardwired in your brain, your motor cortex. There’s so many aspects of it that have to do with behavior and performance that totally makes sense.
Warwick F:
So talk about hardwired, and in particular Max Q Performance, and why that’s different. I’ve heard … I think you mentioned personality assessments may not be quite objective, but some people in the age we live in believe you can be whoever you want to be. There are no Limits. Just a throw off the shackles. Self-actualize. It sounds so good in so many words, but while we can grow and develop, people hate the L word. Limits. We try to know that understanding your wiring is limiting. I think we both agree it’s the reverse. But talk about your philosophy versus personality and the whole you can be whoever you want to be mantra that we hear in our culture.
Brad K:
Well that’s silly. Shaquille O’Neal can want to be a jockey at the Kentucky Derby all he wants, but it’s not going to work, the same way Willie Shoemaker could want to be an NBA center. It’s not going to work. We all have limitations. If we understand that, then we can really … I think as a parent, you know, as a parent, you don’t want your kid to be, “I was a football player and my dad was a football player, my dad’s dad was a football player. We play football and I want to play a piano.” And maybe he’s a great … got the ability to be a great concert pianist. So am I doing my duty as a father to make him play football and not let him do the piano because he can be what I want him to be or maybe he even thinks that’s what he should be. Getting a little bit to your point, Warwick, is that you thought that what you should be and you went into something that wasn’t maybe what you really wanted to be.
Brad K:
So I think if you understand that kind of stuff, it’s all about … I think about it so much as being a parent. And I feel my job as a parent is put my children in position to succeed, encourage them, help provide them the tools they need, but help guide them down a path, because really I think what’s life about? What is the meaning of life? And I think it when you get to your final days and you look back and you can say, “You know what? I used what God gave me to the best of my ability and I lived the best life I could,” and we all have our own life. I’m not trying to live your life or Gary’s life. I’m trying to live my life the best that I can, and that’s all I can do really.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s really a profound point. From my perspective, and I would have assume yours, God designed us a certain way. My belief is God doesn’t make mistakes, so if He designed us a certain way, why shouldn’t we live in light of who the Designer made us to be, right? I mean, it’s just stupid otherwise. You know, one of the things I often say is anybody that’s had kids or been a kid and I have three kids in their twenties, they all come out of the box a certain way. They could be artistic, they could be athletic, they could be reflective, they could be outgoing.
Warwick F:
I have two sons and a daughter and they’re very different. I have two that are writers. I have a daughter who’s very missional, just come back from working for a faith based nonprofit in Australia. And yeah, they’re all very different. And so like you with your kids, I try to encourage them, help them understand how they’re wired, which they do, and then just show options, encourage, but just I want them to be whoever they want to be but obviously in light of who they’re designed to be. And I’m sure with your kids you have the same philosophy, right? Help them understand who they are, give them options. It’s their choice, but help them realize you may not want to spend hours, months, years on a path that has nothing to do with who you are.
Brad K:
And maybe if they do choose a path that I think is going to be more difficult for them, it’s your life, you can do that but I’m going to tell you, here’s where you may encounter some hurdles and you need to be prepared for that. Because one thing, too, where we do have limitations, it’s best to find someone that can help shore up our weaknesses and help us like an assistant, a spouse, whoever it is in our life that can help balance us and help us be the best. That’s why teams are so important. I think that the more I can share the word about hardwired makeup, the more people will understand true diversity is really diverse minds and people that have different ways of processing information and different strengths and weaknesses from an…
Gary S:
I want to-
Warwick F:
Please, go ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
I want to step in, for the listeners, and point out something that’s really interesting about Crucible Leadership and Max Q Performance. It’s fascinating to me that Crucible Leadership posits that we have to understand, we must understand, how we’re designed to live a life of significance. That’s the gateway in the refining cycle to get to the life of significance. Max Q Performance posits that by delving beyond root level persona, we create a meaningful and substantive solution to moving beyond the crises that we face. You guys are both talking about the same kinds of things.
Gary S:
For folks who hear the words, “I need to understand how I’m wired. I need to understand how I’m designed,” Brad, how does hardwired makeup help people understand that?
Brad K:
Actually, I like crucible moments too. Not because of what it puts people through, but because that’s when we really see how a person truly is wired and the flaw, Warwick, with all conventional personality tests is they’re all self reporting mechanisms. So you can really be who you want to be, oh yeah. And a lot of times, based on the way we’re raised, based on the values that we’re taught, you should be nice to people, you should be outgoing, whatever it is we’re taught, we tend to develop that persona. We’ve all done it. Okay, I’m going to this situation. I’m going to a meeting, I’m going to a social function. I’m going to deal with something with my children where I need to, okay, let me put on this face. I need to be tough in this situation. I need to be nice in this situation. I need to be outgoing. And so we wear these masks and the same way when we take a personality test, many times people think, well, in this situation I’m like this, when I’m in the other situation, I’m like that.
Brad K:
And so we answer these based on a combination of nature and nurture and we get them confused and so hardwired makeup … and the reason I chose Max Q Performance, it’s a physics term. When a rocket ship is about to escape the Earth’s atmosphere, there’s a point of maximum pressure that the point of the rocket has to be able to withstand or the rocket will implode. And so under pressure, when we’re all under pressure, that’s when … I can say I’m lefthanded all day long, but when pressure hits and the ceiling’s caving in, I’m going to use my dominant right hand to save my life, you know? So at these points, that’s when we find out aspects about how a person is truly hardwired to think, feel, behave and perform.
Warwick F:
And that makes so much … I mean, I agree with you so much about just understanding how we’re wired and hard-wiring. I guess one question I have is I’ve done a lot of executive coaching and taken a bunch of assessments, some better than others, but I know for me, I took an assessment back in the mid nineties and it said I was … it was reasonably accurate. I was sort of reflective, analytical, liked gathering a team of likeminded people, all of which I think is reasonably true. I guess you’d call it in the motivated abilities space, I suppose you’d say that’s where it was, but I remember looking at it and saying, “Okay, well what do I do with this thing?”
Warwick F:
So even if you have the best assessment, somebody might say, “Okay, I think this is me.” But especially for younger folks, twenties, thirties, how do you both help them understand their wiring and maybe a bit like a baseball scout just help them grow and develop into that. How do you combine that?
Brad K:
What do you mean develop into that?
Warwick F:
Well, I’m sorry. Maybe I misspoke. That was the wrong way of putting it, but I mean they understand their wiring, but how do I apply it in a career. How do I decide what positions to take? What does this mean for my next step of my career? Putting it into practice, basically.
Brad K:
Well, I think a little depends on what you really want to do, finding something … obviously you need to enjoy, I always said find me someone with passion and I’ll show you a success. If you find what you’re passionate about and if you’re willing to work hard and study and learn it and put the time into it, like my goal when I got into baseball, I said, “I don’t know if I have some innate scouting sense that these scouts have, maybe I don’t,” but I said, “My goal is going to be when my boss gets into work in the morning, he’s going to see my car in the parking lot. And when he leaves at night, he’s going to see my car still in the parking lot,” and I wanted to be there whenever he needs something. I wanted to be there for him and be able to get the job done to the point I started to anticipate what he needed before he asked for it. And so I developed a reputation as someone who got things done. Not that I was some super smart guy, but I know how to get things done.
Brad K:
And because I love doing it, I loved being at that ballpark in my office and so having a passion about that enabled me to find success. And I think that understanding, then, how they are and really Warwick, I don’t know a whole lot about your background, but I get the feeling that you were a little bit … maybe you beat yourself up some, but I think you got caught in the midst of difficult economic times globally that maybe in a different time, and I think you had to know you were taking a calculated risk when you tried to do what you did, and so then I think that maybe at another time things might’ve worked out differently.
Brad K:
There’s a lot of people that try what Warren Buffett did, buying down and out companies and some of them stayed down and out and they never become Warren Buffett. So you need to take risks, and we only hear about the success story sometimes.
Warwick F:
No, you’re right, but I think you made a very astute point, is it’s understanding your your wiring, your hardwiring, but also combining that with what are you passionate about? You’re passionate about baseball, you understood analytics and it was just a great combination. So if people understand their wiring and then understand what they’re passionate about, you’re right. Then they’re kind of, they’re on a great path. So that makes so much sense.
Gary S:
I want to jump in and say something. You talked a few minutes ago, Brad, about you weren’t sure whether you had the scouting ability. I know for a fact you have the scouting ability, cause I’m a Chicago Cubs fan and you were one of the scouts who scouted Jake Arietta when he was with the Baltimore Orioles and no good and he got to the Cubs, won a Cy Young, pitched a no hitter. I happened to see it Dodger stadium and help them win the World Series. So bravo. You are a good scout.
Gary S:
The second thing that I wanted to say is as we’re talking about assessments and doing things, one of the things that people want to discover how they’re hardwired through what Max Q offers, is you have an assessment, correct, at your website that people can take. What’s that like and what kind of outputs do people get that are helpful to them, to Warwick’s point, applying what they learn about themselves?
Brad K:
Well, one thing that sets this apart is, like I said, all conventional commercial personality inventories are all self-assessment, self-reporting mechanisms. Ours is the only one that has a third person perspective. We ask you to have somebody else that knows you very well also take the assessment of you, because the fact is the way we see ourselves is often very different than the way others see us and they can often observe behaviors in us, the way we handle situations, that we may think we do it one way just because partly the way we’ve been raised and trained to believe that we are and other people can often see us in a different light. So combining those, we’re able to get a bit more of a full picture.
Brad K:
And the other aspect of hardwired makeup is even our motor skills, even our visual acuity, is impacted by the way we’re hardwired. So there’s clues, each person gives off clues and even some people are easier reads than other. But even with enough clues, I can tell people’s hardwire design without even having a questionnaire, by observing them enough. So you can find out why you take in matters the way you do and why you process them the way you do. And so whatever aspect of life you’re trying to apply that in, you can utilize that to know how you are prone to behave and perform.
Warwick F:
Wow, that’s amazing. So one question I had, just a little bit off topic, but we live near Washington D.C., in Annapolis and obviously these are happy days for Washingtonians, with the World Series. I grew up in Australia, which is kind of the land of cricket. I’ve lived here a long time so I know a little bit about baseball, but obviously not as much as you guys, but one of the things you heard talk was the Astros were all about analytics and the Nationals supposedly, yeah, they’re into analytics, but there was some gut feel and I sometimes think when people say gut feel, like you’ve got, again this is your area, not mine. We’ve got somebody like Dave Martinez has been in baseball for decades. Gut feel can be another word for years of experience that the brain like a cray computer kind of links up so that it’s not just so much, “Hey, I don’t know what I’m doing,” but there’s a lot of subconscious analysis there. But any thoughts about that whole like you know, one team was supposedly all about analytics and the other team not as much or is that a bit of a misnomer?
Brad K:
Well, I think analytics is used … probably, and analytics just means a deeper understanding, thoughtful analysis and obviously data gives us ability to quantify what we’re talking about. Gives us firm points and analytics is just additional information. I think scouts, when they talk about gut feel it, like you said, it’s just the years of experience and I’ve seen many guys like this and so this is how I see this playing out. And so analytics can be a good compliment to that. But the thing is the Astros upset a lot of people, a lot of the old time people in baseball, because they’ve got rid of a lot of their experienced scouts and just relied more on analyzing video in the office and statistics.
Brad K:
And you know, it’s interesting in that game, game seven, Greinke was pitching a great game and it’s almost like they couldn’t wait to get him out of there because they wanted to get them out after six innings. He was pitching so well they left him in, but as soon as he had weakness, in their view, they got him out and then the bullpen gave it up. So the Nationals have done a little bit more keeping some of the longtime scouts employed and so I think a lot of “baseball people” view them as the more traditional baseball organization so I think a lot of baseball people were pulling for the Nationals.
Warwick F:
Interesting. So analysis is good, but some of that subconscious, or you don’t want to dismiss somebody that’s had decades of scouting experience and probably is all analytics but maybe in a broader sense. So just as you think about what you’re doing, what’s your kind of dream or vision for hardwired and maybe even beyond hardwired? What’s your dream about humanity, or people, really understanding how they’re wired? What could this mean if people truly understood that?
Brad K:
Well, for one thing we’re not all equal and it’s okay. That’s okay. Men and women are different and we’re all different in ways, even among men and among women, and I think everyone is valued. If everyone understood they will be valued for what they bring to the table. And everyone’s afraid, “Well, one design is all good and one design is bad, so we should get rid of them.” And actually I’m concerned there are a few hardwired designs that are very hard to find, especially here in the United States where it’s a total immigrant population going back to our forefathers. I consider them almost to be endangered species because it’s almost like there’s genetic factors and so there’s one design that’s really like brown hair, brown eyes. It’s very dominant and even when you get them together, mating with a less common design, the more common one, the dominant one, tends to come out. So I see certain designs really overpopulating our population and I’m worried that other ones … because everyone has something to offer and I think people will be appreciated much more if we understood that .
Gary S:
So, you both have worked with me long enough to recognize the phrase I’m about to use. Land the plane. We’re coming up on when we want to kind of conclude this, wrap things up for listeners. Crucible Leadership is all about helping people live lives of significance out of their crucibles. As we said at the outset, a key component of that is embracing their crucible moment, learning from it, living with it, and understanding step one, how they were designed as a process of moving to a life of significance.
Gary S:
So people who are listening to this podcast understand that they’re here to get some hope and some inputs and insights and how to do that. Brad, you, through Max Q Performance, do have an assessment that will tell people how they’re wired. How can they find that and what will they learn about their wiring? What kinds of different types are there? You mentioned some types in your last comment. What kind of types will they find if they go to maxqperformance.com, take your assessment, lay that over what they’re learning in Crucible Leadership, how will that help them?
Brad K:
I think the easier question might be how would that not help. That’s a much shorter answer.
Gary S:
Good on you.
Warwick F:
Great point.
Brad K:
At maxqperformance.com they can find the assessments along with some more information about it, but we can tell you substantively if you’re left brain dominant or right brain dominant, much of the way you’re left handed or right handed, and even left brain right brain has some misunderstandings out in the public realm. We can tell you if you’re hardwired more in the front of the brain or the back of the brain and actually Warwick, you’re interesting in that I think you’re a reflective person, there is no question, but it’s because you like to … I think your mind is always going, too, though. You’re very much … all the strategizing, thinking about how things can be done better and-
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Brad K:
And the thing is that when Carl Jung coined these terms of extroversion and introversion, he was talking about the way you get your energy also, and so I think even that’s misunderstood in some ways. We can also tell you if your dominant, empathetic or analytic person and giving you those aspects, we can also tell you if you’re a conceptual or a sensate, one that uses more your five senses, or one that uses more your sixth sense of creativity and intuition.
Brad K:
So you can find out a lot of people. And to me really it’s funny because I always thought I was left brained. I like to be organized. Anybody in business feels that being organized is important but then as I found out more, I was more right brain, that explains why I’ve got … my office is a mess. I got files of stuff, projects I’m working on and everything and so why different ideas keep coming to my mind all the time.
Brad K:
So I find out things even about … I felt pretty good about myself, but I found out more about why I was the way I was and I can understand why I did some things that I wasn’t always proud of or some things I was really proud of, but just a lot of things made a lot of sense. And like said I, it even made me appreciate and understand my wife more and helped our relationship in many ways.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Well in conclusion, I’d like all the listeners to go to maxqperformance.com, take the assessment. I think the advice Brad says of having somebody else take it is great counsel because in the Crucible Leadership world, the foundation for leading a life of significance, a life on purpose and helping others is understanding your design, understanding your hardwired design, to use Brad’s term. If you don’t understand your design, then it’s really extremely difficult, if not impossible, to lead a fulfilling life, a life on purpose, a life of significance.
Warwick F:
So it’s incredibly important and so what Brad is doing is providing a tremendous service to people so it’s not limiting. I believe that if you understand how you’re wired, yes, maybe there are some things you weren’t designed to do, but it frees you up to do things maybe you never thought possible. So I feel it’s actually opens a whole huge window into the world so I’d encourage everybody to go to maxqperformance.com and understand how they’re hardwired.
Gary S:
Brad, thanks for spending time with us and a spirited, insightful conversation. Much appreciated. And listeners, hopefully you’ve learned some things here today about not just a crucible moment, but how you in coming back from that crucible moment and understanding how you’re wired, understanding how you’re designed, that is the trip wire for launching yourself in to that life of significance.
Gary S:
We love to hear your feedback here at Crucible Leadership. Please go to crucibleleadership.com. There’s a contact form there. You can let us know what you thought of this conversation. You can tell us your own crucible stories so that we can begin a dialogue, so that we can continue to help you along the path of you coming back, moving beyond your crucible.
Gary S:
If you’d like to engage with us on social media, you can come to Facebook and you can find us at Crucible Leadership. You can also find Warwick on LinkedIn at Warwick Fairfax. That’s with the silent W in the middle. W-A-R-W-I-C-K Fairfax, and until the next time we’re here together, thank you for listening to Beyond the Crucible.
Gary S:
If you like what you hear, you can click subscribe on whatever app you’re doing right now. You’ll never miss an episode. If you really like what you hear, share it on social media. Share it with your friends. Let other people what’s going on. These kinds of conversations like we had today between Warwick and Brad are the kinds of conversations we want to bring every week because our goal is to, yes, focus on crucible experiences. Focus on those painful moments, but not as an end in and of itself. We want to focus on those moments to help you realize, to help your friends realize, that crucible moments are painful. They are difficult. They can stop you, but it’s not the end of your story. It is in fact, if you embrace them and learn from them, the beginning of your story, because it’s a new chapter in your life that can be the best chapter yet because it leads in the end to a life of significance. Thanks again for spending time with us today.
We live in uncertain times. We currently live in a world where the coronavirus has spread across the globe. In many countries and in much of the U.S. we have been advised to take refuge in our homes. Restaurants are not open, many stores have closed. Many businesses have laid off workers. We fear getting sick. We fear losing our job and not having the means to support ourselves. Even if we are in reasonably good health, that is not a guarantee that we won’t get sick.
I am reminded of what Franklin Roosevelt said in his first inaugural address in 1933 at the height of the Great Depression:
“So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is…fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.”
That is not quite the case in what we are going through with the coronavirus pandemic. This virus poses a real threat, particularly to the elderly and those with preexisting medical conditions; and it poses a real threat to the economies of many nations.
But the fear of the unknown greatly amplifies the fears we have. Will I get sick? If I do get sick will I have mild or major symptoms? Will I have a job? How long will this last?
Those of us with fertile imaginations can greatly amplify our emotional and spiritual distress in what are trying times. True confession: I do have a vivid imagination, which helps in my role as a reflective adviser and thinker and does help with strategic planning. I am also by nature a cautious person. I don’t go bungee jumping or parachute diving. Before I do anything, I typically think very carefully. But in the current situation we are living in, these qualities are not always that helpful.
So, left to my own devices, I could easily let my imagination run wild and think of all sorts of worst-case scenarios, or perhaps even worse than worst case…
How do we stop being paralyzed by fear? Of course, we should take adequate precautions. We should shelter at home, minimize external contacts, wash our hands often, don’t touch our faces. We should do what we need to do, listening to the advice of the appropriate health and governmental authorities.
Even then, the fear of the unknown is so hard to deal with.
So here are some thoughts on trying to fight the fear of the unknown, replacing fear with hope. I say fight, because it is a daily battle; to not let our fear win.
1. Reflection
Sometimes reflecting on the sayings of people we most admire can help ground us in our inner beliefs and values. Here are a couple of great quotes on dealing with fear.
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” – Nelson Mandela
“Being brave isn’t the absence of fear. Being brave is having that fear but finding a way through it.” – Bear Grylls
These quotes emphasize the thought of not giving into fear, of fighting it, not letting it take hold. How do you this?
2. Mediation and Prayer
To me it starts with grounding ourselves in what we know to be true, our innermost beliefs. I think of these two Scriptures that help me as I meditate and pray:
“I will say of the Lord, ‘He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” – Psalm 91:2
“Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.” – 1 Peter 5:7
What these two verses emphasize is that from my perspective, God loves us. He is our refuge and fortress. We can trust him. We can cast all our anxieties on him. For me prayer centers me and calms my spirit.
Think of what you most cherish and hold dear. Meditate on those teachings. It could be from a religious tradition, wise sayings or a favorite book or poem. Something that brings you back to what you believe and a place of calm inner peace.
3. Take a walk in nature
Near where we live in Annapolis Maryland, there is a wonderful nature trail surrounded on two sides by water. It is a beautiful setting. We are currently in Florida in a condo near the beach, so thankfully we still have access to what is now a quiet place. Taking a long walk on the beach, listening to the water, the seagulls and the wind is definitely soothing.
4. Listen to your favorite music
If ever something can soothe your soul it is music, especially music that you love and are familiar with. It is like an old friend. I love all kinds of music: classical, jazz, classic pop (’60s and ’70s), ragtime, worship music. Given the importance of faith to me, listening to worship music that talks of casting out fear and trusting in God certainly helps. But any music that brings a smile to your face and calms your soul is a good thing.
5. Spend time with loved ones
While we are physically isolated from many, we can still spend time with our families. For many, spending this much time with our families may not be normal. Take advantage of this time. Try and play together, laugh together and listen to each other. As a friend of mine said, with our friends and extended family while we may have to be physically distant, we don’t have to be socially distant. We can still call our friends up, or with modern technology we can FaceTime them, or set up Zoom video calls.
6. Don’t put your life on hold
To the degree you can, try not to put your life on hold. Some may not be able to work remotely. However, many can work remotely. While you may not be physically connected to your co-workers, try to carry on as before. You can call them, have video conversations with them. Obsessively thinking about what might happen is not helpful. Get done today what you need to get done.
7. Stay informed, but not too much
It is good to stay informed. Growing up in a newspaper family, my natural mode is to stay informed; to know what is going on. But while this is important; looking up news sites every minute and looking at news channels all day long is not helpful. Tune in from time to time, but not all day.
8. Think of how you can help others
When we take the focus off ourselves and our fears, and think of how we can help others, it does two things. First, by thinking of others and not ourselves, it tends to reduce our fears. Second, it helps others. We might bring food to an elderly neighbor. We might call or have a video chat with a friend or family member, asking them how they are doing and trying to support and encourage them.
We live in uncertain times, where the fear of the unknown is very real. This is a minute-by- minute, hour-by-hour battle. When you start feeling fearful, be pro-active. Don’t wait for the fear to grow, which left to its own devices it tends to. Nip it in the bud. Use whatever go to tools work for you. Take a walk. Listen to your favorite piece of music. Pray and meditate.
While we can’t always control our circumstances, we can control our attitudes and how those circumstances affect us. It is not easy, but the spiritual and emotional battle is one that we can win. In that sense, Franklin Roosevelt was right: “the only thing we have to fear is…fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror.”
Let’s not let fear win.
Reflection
What are the best tools for you to calm and center yourself (mediation and prayer, a walk in nature, listening to music, spending time with those you love)?
What can you do today to move your life forward, at work or at home?
Who can you help or call today that will brighten up their day?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
