Renewal and restoration. Those are the things to focus on, not resolutions, as a new year begins. That’s what we discuss this week as we dive into Warwick’s latest blog at beyondthecrusible.com
The key to arriving at this more helpful destination to recharge our lives in 2026 involves such strategic actions as asking yourself if anything is holding you back, considering your beliefs and values and then — and only then — setting specific goals and objectives.
That’s what will fuel your journey to a life of significance.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
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👉 Follow Warwick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/warwickfairfax/
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible, I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. When we talk about the new year, we talk about renewal and restoration, it's so important. Goals and objectives are fine but start with who do I authentically want to be, how do I want to show up in the world, how do I want to make a difference at home or at work.
Gary Schneeberger:
Renewal and restoration, those are the things to focus on not resolutions as a new year begins. That's what we discuss this week as we take a deep dive into Warwick's latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com The key to arriving at this more helpful destination to recharge our lives in 2026 involves such strategic actions as asking yourself if anything is holding you back, considering your beliefs and values and then, and only then, adding specific goals and objectives, that's what will fuel your journey to a life of significance. Welcome, friends, to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. This is, I'm going to add this in here, it begins the wind down, the kickdown, the clock's ticking, the ball's dropping to our 300th episode, we're not there yet but it's coming soon and you're going to like it. I think you're going to like it, that milestone 300th episode. But this episode is another one of those that we do where Warwick and I discuss his most recent blog at https://www.google.com/search?q=beyondecrucible.com. And this blog, you might say, allowed you to really dial into renewal as we begin 2026, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely, Gary. And the reason I focused on renewal and restoration as opposed to resolutions—and they're fine, there's nothing wrong with them—but often we start with the "what" and the "how." "I'm going to run five miles a day," "I'm going to eat less sugar," "I'm going to work harder to get that promotion." All fine, but they're often external. What I find is that if we don't start with the "who"—who are we, what do we value, what is our purpose—then those resolutions often fail because they're not grounded in anything substantive. Renewal is about looking at the foundation. Is the foundation cracked? Does it need some work? Restoration is bringing back what was intended to be there in the first place. It's a much more profound way to start a year than just a checklist of things to do.
Gary Schneeberger:
And you talk in the blog about three strategic actions, three reflection points. The first one you mentioned is asking yourself if anything is holding you back. This isn't just about physical habits; it's about the internal landscape, isn't it? It's about those crucibles that might still be casting a shadow or those limiting beliefs we carry around.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. We all carry baggage. Some of it is from recent crucibles, some of it is from childhood. If you don't acknowledge what's holding you back—be it fear, a lack of forgiveness, or a belief that you're not "enough"—then no amount of goal-setting is going to fix that. You have to clear the ground before you can build something new. That's the first step of renewal: what do I need to let go of? What weights am I carrying that are preventing me from running the race I'm meant to run?
Gary Schneeberger:
The second point you make is considering your beliefs and values. This is the "who" you were talking about. In the blog, you emphasize that these aren't just words on a page; they're the compass for your life. If your goals aren't aligned with your values, you'll feel a sense of friction even if you're "successful" by the world's standards.
Warwick Fairfax:
That friction is a clear sign of a lack of alignment. If I value family but my goals are all about working 80 hours a week to get a title, I'm going to be miserable. Part of renewal is checking that compass. Are my values still what I think they are? Have I drifted? To live a life of significance, your actions must be an extension of your core beliefs. When they are, you have a natural energy and peace because you're living authentically.
Gary Schneeberger:
And then the third point, which you summarized as "just do it," but with a twist. It's not just blind action; it's action focused on who you want to become. You mentioned celebrating small wins. Why is that small-win mentality so important in this journey of restoration?
Warwick Fairfax:
Because restoration is a process, not an event. If you're restoring an old house or a classic car, you don't do it in an afternoon. You celebrate when the engine starts, or when the first room is painted. It's the same with our lives. If you want to become a more patient person, or a more present leader, celebrate the one conversation where you actually listened instead of interrupting. Those small wins build momentum. They prove to you that change is possible and that you are becoming more of who you were always intended to be. That's a great place to put a bow on the package that is this episode of Beyond the Crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, we will be back with you next week with more stories of folks who have gone through crucibles, bounced back from crucibles and are now living that great destination we love talking about and that is a life of significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist, instead you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for and, crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
At the beginning of a new year, we often think of goals and objectives we want to accomplish in the 12 months ahead. They could be work objectives, health or relationship objectives. Goals and objectives can be helpful. But just focusing on specific targets or things we want to accomplish may lead us to overlook deeper questions. Who do we want to become? How do we want to show up?
As the year begins, we have the opportunity to ask ourselves some thought-provoking questions. Who do we want to be? What is important to us? What do we want to let go of? What do we want to do more of? What beliefs and values do we want to embrace more and live out more?
This is what renewal is. Shedding what does not serve us and holds us back and embracing that which helps us move forward and become more of who we were intended to be.
So let’s talk about how we become more authentically who we want to be, and in that sense experience renewal.
1. Put aside for now defining specific goals and objectives for the year. That may come later. Let’s first look at the deeper issues before getting into metrics, focusing more on who you want to become. Without doing some soul work first, there will be a tendency to have goals and objectives that continue the path you are on.
2. Ask yourself whether anything is holding you back. It could be resentment and anger over past relationships. It could be about failure or things that were done to you. You might have a hard time moving forward, because you find yourself often dwelling on the pain, anger and resentments of the past.
3. Forgive and move on. As has been said, that which does not serve you, you should consider letting go. Forgive past hurts, either forgiving yourself or forgiving others (which does not mean condoning). The past is in the rear-view mirror. Focus forward, and stop ruminating and regretting past mistakes and failures.
4. Consider your beliefs and values. What would your life look like if you were fully living in light of them? How would that affect your career and vocational path? How would that affect your relationships and family? How would that affect how you show up in the world?
5. Evaluate how far away you are from living a life that is fully in line with your beliefs and values. Be honest. Ask friends and family what they think. Ask them to be honest.
6. Do something about it. We have one life to live, one legacy to leave. Let’s make our life count and leave a legacy that our family and friends will be proud of. Maybe that means changing your career path. Maybe that means staying in your current career, but showing up very differently, treating those you work with and for differently than before. Maybe that means paying more attention to your family and friends and your close relationships. This might mean prioritizing your family, which could have career- limiting consequences. So be it, if that’s what is important to you. To do otherwise is not living a life in line with your beliefs and values.
7. Now you are ready to set goals and objectives. But these may well be different than before. They will focus on measuring how you are becoming more of who you feel called to be. So, for instance, if you want to prioritize family more, start measuring how many sports games and other activities you were present at in a given week or month. What is the pattern? Were you present for your family, or were you traveling for work most of the month, just like you did the month before?
Life is more about becoming than about doing. Joy and fulfillment come from fully living a life in light of your beliefs and values, and becoming the person you were always intended to be and were called to be. Achieving specific career and monetary objectives may give you pleasure for a time, but it does not last. That kind of joy fades and we fall into the illusion that the next promotion or the next monetary level will make us happy. It never does, not in the lasting sense.
Joy and fulfillment come more from living in light of your values and beliefs. At Beyond The Crucible we believe joy and fulfillment come from living a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. It comes from seeing someone you work with grow and achieve their dreams. It comes from loving and supporting our family members. It comes from making an impact for good in the world, no matter how large or small. It comes from laying your head down at night and saying to yourself that today was a good day. I helped someone. I encouraged someone. I made a difference.
That is where true joy and fulfillment comes from. It comes from immense gratitude for the journey of helping others and fully living who you want to be. Some days will be easier than others. Some days we will feel like we really made a difference. Some days we will think we did not do much to help anyone or have an impact. But overall we will feel that we are doing our utmost to live in light of our values and beliefs and in some way to make the world a better place. That is enough. We can be immensely grateful for the journey we are on, and for those who are spiritual or look to a higher power, we feel grateful to God or however we see eternity for the journey we are on.
This is what a life of significance is all about.
Reflection
1. Ask yourself who you want to become. If you were fully living in light of your values and beliefs, what would that look like?
2. What do you need to do less of, and be less of; and what do you need to do more of and be more like to live a legacy that your friends and family would be proud of?
3. Just do it! Set some goals and targets that focus more on who you want to become in your career and vocation and in your family and relationships. Celebrate each small win as you become more of who you were always intended to be.
We share inspirational stories and transformational tools from leaders who have moved beyond life’s most difficult moments to create lives of significance.
From coaching CEOs of Fortune 500 companies to transforming the mindsets of sports teams, David Nurse specializes in helping high achievers break through barriers, unlock their flow state and discover the untapped potential that’s already within them.
What sets Nurse apart is his ability to make mindset transformation relatable and actionable. He delivers real tools that companies and individuals can immediately apply to maximize performance, culture, and creativity, unlocking the mystery of mindset optimization.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Don’t forget to subscribe for more leadership and personal growth insights: https://www.youtube.com/@beyondthecrucible
👉 Follow Beyond the Crucible on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beyondthecrucible
👉 Follow Warwick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/warwickfairfax/
👉 Follow Beyond the Crucible on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beyondthecrucible
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond The Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible.
David Nurse:
I believe life is this long hallway, right? So, if you're listening, imagine a long hallway. You're at the start of the hallway, you look down that hallway, and there's doors on each side. And everything that we do is learning, teaching us, preparing us for the next thing along the path.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, David Nurse, explaining just one of the mindset practices that will help us get from setback to significance. He's a former NBA assistant coach, listened closely to learn what he helped the Brooklyn Nets accomplish, whose insights have helped thousands across the globe take action and live with alignment.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, it's so great to have you here, David, and loved reading your book, Pivot & Go: The 29-Day Mindset Blueprint to Redefine and Achieve YOUR Success. I know that's your first book. You've got a couple other books since. And just a little bit about David. So, David, for the past 15 years, has been blessed to help the world's top performers unlock the zone and actually stay there. So, that's Fortune 500 CEOs, NBA All Stars, elite military units, Hollywood A-listers. And growing up as well here, David chased his own dream to be a professional basketball player. And that led him to have two Guinness World Records, which we'll have to find out about. The stint with the Brooklyn Nets in 2016, and he helped take their three point shooting from 28th and the league to second, which is very impressive. He's worked with over 150 NBA players, three books, Pivot & Go, Breakthrough and Do It, and has also been rated as one of the top 50 keynote speakers in the world. And he is married to his wife, an actress Taylor Kalupa. And very briefly on Taylor, she's been in a number of programs such as The Fix, Modern Family and Chosen. And I'm one of these people, not that many of us, but at least guys that like both Hallmark and Great American Family, she wrote a Christmas movie called Christmas Less Travel that I really enjoyed.
David Nurse:
Oh, nice.
Warwick Fairfax:
About Old Red, the Red Pickup. Great movie. So, well done, Taylor. Not only she's a-
David Nurse:
Oh, nice.
Warwick Fairfax:
... wonderful actress, she's a great script writer. So, well done.
David Nurse:
I mean, yeah, she's awesome.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, there you go. You can tell Taylor... When I think of Taylor, I think of Big Red and Christmas Less Travel. So, there you go. So, David, tell us a bit about growing up. I know you grew up in Iowa in a small town and your dream very early on was to be an NBA player. A lot of kids think that and their parents are thinking, sure. But just tell us about what life was like in Iowa and that dream that just animated your young life and yeah.
David Nurse:
Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes it's a blessing to have incompetent confidence to an extent. And my parents were so encouraging and I told them I wanted to play in the NBA from as early as I could remember. So, every waking hour was centered around basketball, shooting in my driveway when it was snowing in Iowa, going to any camp that I could. They probably should have said play tennis or golf, something that a 6-foot 2 guy with a vertical leap about two inches would have had a better chance at. But I just loved it. And I think there's something really important from a young age of chasing your dreams and something you're passionate about. It led me to play college basketball and led me to play professionally overseas. Now, I always thought I was still going to play in the NBA when I was playing professionally overseas in more of a Will Ferrell semi-pro type of league, as you know, work in Australia where I was at, but...
Warwick Fairfax:
And what was the name of the team in Australia in Adelaide?
David Nurse:
Yeah, Adelaide. The Adelaide Bearcats. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Great night.
David Nurse:
It was such a fun experience. I mean, I think the life experiences I got to be able to see the world through basketball was probably more of a blessing than I ever had imagined. Now, I wanted to play in the NBA and still had those dreams, but when the doors shut in my third year of playing professional basketball in Northern Spain in the Basque region where they don't even speak Spanish actually, it's a wake-up call. It was a moment that I had that I got cut from the team and I go back home and I'm living on my parents' recliner chair. They're living outside of Kansas City in the time in a small town of Missouri. And I'm a big believer in these moments in our lives. I call them snapshot moments where you can remember vividly exactly where you were, what was said. And they're moments, they're pivotal moments that give you this opportunity to take one of two paths. I was feeling bad for myself. I was sleeping on my parents' recliner chair for about six months. I didn't have any backup plans. I probably should have had some backup plans in college of like, "Hey, what if the NBA doesn't work out?" But I didn't. So, my mom was doing dishes and I remember this vividly and I was kicked back in the recliner chair and she said, "David, when one door closes, four open and an entire beachfront patio overlooking the ocean." I was like, "Mom, what? Come again. I thought it was one door, one door. What's this beachfront patio and these four doors thing?" What she was telling me is that everything that I'd done to that point to play in the NBA was learning these transferable skills that I could use for something else. My path that God had planned for me was not to play in the NBA, but it was to coach, to help players who had more God-given ability and athleticism and height than I did. So, I made my pivot moment, hence the name pivot and go, these snapshot moments where you get the chance to either keep running into this wall that's ahead of you or pivot to the next thing. I believe life is this long hallway, right? So, if you're listening, imagine a long hallway. You're at the start of the hallway, you look down that hallway and there's doors on each side. And everything that we do is learning, teaching us, preparing us for the next thing along the path, along the hallway. We go into one door. My door was professional basketball with air quotes, and I learned from that. The next door is, I want to coach in the NBA. So, I went all in. I hand wrote a letter to every NBA GM because I had no NBA connections at the time. I did it old school style. I put it in the mailbox and I sent it out. I didn't get anything back. Month and a half goes by, I get a phone call, 310 area code number. It was the GM of the LA Clippers. His name was Gary Sachs. And it was the nicest guy. I think he did it just because he just has such a good soul. It was a quick conversation. At the end of it, he said, "Look, if you're ever in LA, look me up, we'll grab coffee." Basically, "Good luck with the rest of your life, kid." But that door was opened, right? He gave that opportunity. So, I took that opportunity. I spent all my money, I stole some of my parents' money to be able to book a ticket, to go out to LA that following week, acting like I was going to do a basketball camp so I didn't look desperate. But I prepared for that meeting and Gary and I, we hit it off. That was the entry point to every connection that led to throughout the NBA, which is now friends with almost every team, eventually led to coaching with the Brooklyn Nets. So, the story is, it's much longer and we'll get to that crucible moment with the Nets when I thought That I'd made it and when I was thinking I was a little bit too big for my britches there. But the point of it is like everybody has these moments, everybody, when you think what you wanted was taken away. Nothing just happens easily. God doesn't do it that way. We have to learn, we have to grow. And that was my moment where I was like, "Hey, feel bad for yourself for getting cut from your dreams that didn't work out or pivoted to something even better and reaching out, taking that chance, even though I didn't know, like Gary could have never got back to me." Nobody could have got back to me, but I would have been at the same spot, you know what I mean? I think life is about taking those chances, taking those shots and knowing that what's the worst that can happen, that somebody says no, and then you're at the same spot that you are. So, to be able to get to that spot, the NBA connections, it happened through other people and Gary was that one for me.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's really a remarkable story. And you write a lot in your book about resilience. I mean, talk about that earlier crucible when your whole dream was to be an NBA player. I mean, 6'2" doesn't sound that short, but obviously in basketball, it's a different average high. And I remember you write something funny. I think the pediatrician promised your mom or parents you're going to be 6'7". And it's like, seriously, how could you be five inches wrong? Because that could have made a difference. And you played in Spain, Australia. I think your dad was a coach for a... To be honest, I didn't grow up with the NBA, but an NBA D level, one level below the NBA. And even he said, basically, "Sorry kid, I got to cut you." It's like you're an uncle...
David Nurse:
As an uncle, yeah. I hope my dad wouldn't do that to me, but my uncle did.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, it's like, are you serious? So, when you realized that you were playing countries all over the world and you were not going to have a career playing basketball, how did you deal with that? Because that original dream ended then. A lot of people would just get very angry, very bitter, and not even think of pivoting to coaching. How did you decide not to just be angry and bitter and say, "This is so unfair. 6'2" is not that short. Come on, I can shoot, which obviously we'll get to later"? I mean, what's the problem here? How did you not get bitter and angry about the whole thing?
David Nurse:
Yeah. I mean, I think at the end of the day, my hope and trust is in Jesus. That's the choice that I made when I was 22 years old, that his plan is better than my plans. Sure, I'm going to go for it and have my dreams and stuff. But even if I feel bad for myself, which I totally did, it wasn't a quick bounce back like, "Hey, okay, that didn't work. I'm onto the next." I felt the feelings and everything, but I also knew that if this door was meant to open, it would have opened. So, I need to look for other doors and there's other ways to get in the NBA and my gifts that God gave me are better set for leading, for motivating, for coaching. And so, that's what led to coaching in the NBA. Now, hey, when I was there, you learn everything from every situation that you're at. I'm a big believer in it. It's not really about wins and losses. It's about learning and growth from that learning. And when I was with Brooklyn, I was 28 years old. So, I was young, a young NBA coach. And we had, right when I came on, we had this super hot streak, went from 28th, which is almost last in the NBA and three point shooting percentage, all the way to second. So, I was getting all this media and New York media, NBA media, like this new development coach and he's doing such a great job. So, of course I was drinking my own Kool-Aid of like, "Eh, I got this. I'm in this league for the long haul." And at the end of the year, the head coach got fired, which if you have a bad record, that happens in sports. And when that happens in sports, 99% of the time, the entire staff is gone as well. So, as quick as I thought that I made it to my mountaintop moment, I was going down the other way and the crucible moment happened again where I poured five years into getting into this NBA coaching job. So, I said I met Gary Sachs, but I didn't just wait for him to make calls. I went and ran my own basketball camps and I had these custom-made basketballs, terrible leather, this line down the middle where you could see the rotation on it. I had them ordered from China, which it was back. They sent these a few basketballs to the Oakland Seaport. I drove from small town Missouri 29 hours out to Oakland, put them in the trunk of my car. I spent the next five years of my life traveling around the country, doing basketball camps for anybody that would take me in, sleeping on friends' couches who probably didn't consider me a friend, random people, and crashing in my car in well-lit Walmart parking lots throughout the country. So, it was a journey to get there. So, to have that moment where once again it was taken away, it was like, "Huh, gosh, here we go again." But once again, it's this path of which choice, which road am I going to take? And I'm a really big believer on the choices we make determine who we are going to be. Now there's different levels of choices. There's tier one, which are the most important, which is your faith, the person you marry and kids or not kids. I think those are the three irreversible to an extent, choices. And there's tier two and tier three and on down the line. And that choice for me to make after I got cut from the nets was another big determiner of where's my life going to go because we always get the chance to feel bad for ourselves and lick our own wounds, right? And you'll have these people, and I've seen it many times of like, "Oh, you got a raw deal. Oh, you shouldn't have been fired. You were a good coach. They're terrible for doing that." And you can agree with that crowd who's going to say that, but what good does it do? Like, you don't get anywhere from it. So, part of that, getting cut from the basketball team in Spain, getting fired by the Nets, it's just this moment in refinement in the fire that makes you even stronger for the next thing to come, even though those moments suck, even though any pain that anybody goes through does suck, totally. But if you embrace it and you know that on the other side of it, there's something great in it, and you get the ability to teach other people that are going to go through that very similar thing and help them along their path, then that's when you find the fruit of it and the growth from it.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's so well said, David. I mean, one of the things we say here Beyond The Crucible, which is really we've learned from a lot of our guests, that phrase that didn't happen to you, it happened for you. I mean, we've had so many guests, some with just horrendous crucibles. We had a woman, Stacey Copas from the suburbs of Sydney, and she was an athlete in high school, and she dove into an above ground pool like kids do and was diagnosed as a quadriplegic. So, she went through what you would expect-
David Nurse:
Wow.
Warwick Fairfax:
... suicidal ideation and drug abuse. But later on, she's now a speaker and consultant, and she's actually grateful for what she went through, which doesn't mean that she's happy about what happened, but the person she is now wouldn't have been possible without that. Now, we've heard so many stories like that. You can't just dismiss them all as just like delusional, crazy people and what does this mean? But yet, and you did that in that you said, "Okay, this is awful. Not only do I not get to play in the NBA, I don't even get to coach in the NBA." It's like, what's next? It's not quite a job experience, but it probably felt like that at the time. It's like boils and hail. And I mean, fine. I mean, what's next? I mean, So, you probably went through a bit of that, but I'm sensing you didn't languish there for years when that happened. You probably were angry. "Hey, this is unfair. Look at my record. I understand that a coach brings in his team. I get the NBA logic, but come on. If there's one person he should have kept, it's me. So, come on, look at the record. I mean, don't you want to be second in shooting? Isn't that important in the NBA? Maybe not. What do I know? And you could have gone through those angry internal dialogue. So, talk a bit about that, because my guess is you didn't dwell on that anger almost sulking mode for too long, right?
David Nurse:
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, we all have that self-bias, right? We're the coolest people in our own minds and that part of that is that the incompetent confidence that I had. And I think you need to have a little bit of that, a little bit of that type of self-belief, self-swagger to it, but it's also about life moves very fast. And at the end of the day, where you're at right now in your life is probably not where you're going to be at five years, 10 years from now. And it's so hard for myself at the time, and I think just for people to paint a picture of the future that they want, and then also be able to be flexible, nimble, be able to pivot along the road that will eventually lead to that path or a path there of very similar. And yeah, so life is choices. It's like, like I said, it's perspectives and choices. You get either one road or the other road. You get the road of, "I'll feel bad about for myself, and this will be my narrative that I tell myself that I was wronged." Or you get the path of, "Okay, what can I learn from this? What can I extract from this to be able to take to the next thing?" It's like the analogy of you squeezing a lemon, you're making lemonade from it. I mean, obviously the whole life gives you lemons things, but that's where it comes from of what is the extraction you can take from that situation to be able then to apply to a much better situation that will come. And I think the hardest thing for myself at the time, and for most people is, you can't actually feel what the tangible thing that is going to come, right? The old adage, again, I'm using all these cliches of chopping down the tree, one swing of the ax at a time, you might take a thousand swings of the ax and you don't see that tree fall down, but then there's that one swing that does it. And then you look back, you're like, "Oh yeah, I knew that was coming." You didn't at the time. Had you, you might have had more foresight to be able to be calm in the moment. I think it's just the belief though, right? And that's where my faith in Jesus and God comes into play where I know he's going to work it out. I know he's going to work it out and he does it time and time again where it's better than I could imagine. I wouldn't ever have even imagined I'd be doing the things that I'm doing now, speaking to companies and different countries and coaching CEOs and starting a protein gummies company of all things, like all these different opportunities that have come along the way of just being open to the next door that will potentially be an opportunity that I can go down that path.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that will have a Lakeside Villa and a bunch of other rooms around like...
David Nurse:
Oceanside, I'm not selling for the last year.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oceanside. Yeah, yeah. Oh, sorry. Sorry, my bad. My bad.
Warwick Fairfax:
My bad. So, I want to talk a bit about the first book, Pivot and Go. And you talk about, it's built around 29 days saying that's what it takes these habits to have a whole lifestyle change. We'll get into in a bit just these concepts you have here of success, faded, joy, passion and confidence, but to find in a bit of a different way than most of us would do, but you have a lot of really just profound insights like you have a chapter on the rich life when you were doing these camps all over the world. Yeah, you probably weren't saving as much money as maybe you could have, but yet what you saved in a sense, more important than money was life lessons. So, talk a bit about that because one of the things you say, which I love is the only treasures that you will, without a doubt, never have taken from you are your own personal life experiences, your own lessons learned, your own faith developed, your own memories created. That's not a normal way of thinking, to think about experiences when you're actually trying to build a business, but yet in the end, you learn something much greater than that.
David Nurse:
Yeah. Isn't 2020 hindsight so bad? I wish I could say I had that in the moment too, but yeah, I mean, you always remember those type of memories and those type of moments. And my whole thing with what you're speaking about there is, I set this goal of I wanted to make $100,000, which seemed like a lot to me at the time doing basketball camps. And every spot that I was in, I looked as a transactional dollar amount from a basketball camp. And what I didn't realize at the time was I was going into these unbelievable countries. I tapped into this market of international schools, which spoke English, so there you go. And to be quite honest, they didn't have very good basketball programs. So, anything that I was doing was a value add. I was able to do these camps in Singapore, in Hong Kong, in Japan, and throughout Europe. I was just looking at them as like, "Okay, the mission is 100K. I've got to get there." Instead of thinking, "Wow, I could immerse myself in this unbelievable culture in Singapore that hardly anybody from America gets to go check out and be part of and stay with families there and get to know the people." So, it is the hindsight thing of everybody's looking at like, "What's the next thing? Let me just get through this moment instead of actually sit in the moment and be present in the moment." And I've done this whole study recently on Flow State, which is essentially being in the zone where time dissipates, it's effortless effort. The thing that defines it the most is these top performers or athletes that I've interviewed and is being able to be actually present in the moment without ruminating on the past and without having anxiety of the future. And I truly do believe that the most joyful people in life are able to spend more time presently present than in the other two slots of past and future. So, the learning lesson for me, which I still struggle with for sure, I think a lot of people would resonate with this of, you're looking for the security in, whether it's financial bottom line, whether it's in identity based, whether it's in people looking to you for social media likes or whatnot, when you look in your security in something other than one, Jesus and two, also the being present in the moment, you're going to tend to be stressed, anxious, worried, and everybody wants to be in that present moment. So, it's that dichotomy and that paradoxical tension of how do we get there and how do you feel secure in that moment? And to me, what that taught me was God's got the plan. I honestly believe he just keeps beating it over my head. Whether I'm ever going to listen or not, that's the question, but I know it's there.
Warwick Fairfax:
You've talked about identity a bit and you do have a chapter in there where you talk about coming to faith in Christ. I think it's like Western Illinois University and a group called Fuel that I actually hadn't heard of, although I go to an evangelical church and all of a lot of different ministries. So, I have a sense that that grounding of faith in Christ changed your whole perspective about identity and it's a process. It's not like it's one and done. I've got all the answers. So, next time I make a mistake or bad things happen, I'll just say, "Boy, thank you, Lord. This is wonderful. What can I learn?" I realize, as they say, sanctification's a process, but my sense is that, although you probably didn't realize that that choice you made at grad school changed your life and enabled you to have some of these perspectives you have about choice and identity and the journey. So, talk about how that happened and how your faith has really influenced, I would guess everything you do and write about.
David Nurse:
Yeah. And it is that, right? It is everything that I do and write about. And it was, I think the biggest thing is, I keep coming back to just the plan and the vision and the future is, I get a lot of excitement out of waking up every day, knowing that I've got goals that I want to hit, I've got a big mission that I'm on, but also knowing that at the end of the day, none of it really matters, which sounds like, "Hey, then why are you doing it?" But it's for a much bigger purpose, but I know the pressure isn't on me. Does that make sense? It's like a basketball player who can just go out there and just like, "Hey, if you miss a shot, it's cool. Keep shooting. Just keep shooting." That's how I look at the life perspective because the best athletes that I've ever been around, basketball players will talk about the Shai Alexander who I trained who's the best player in the world right now, or being around Steph Currys and all these guys, they don't worry about missed shots because they know that that doesn't define them. They know who they are and they're like, "I'm just going to keep shooting because I've got a big purpose. I got a big mission." So, it changed my life and my senior year of college, like you mentioned, I went to this thing, fuel with a teammate of mine and I knew God, but I didn't have a personal relationship with Jesus and the people there were just, they were so joyful. They were like praising and high-fiving and like encouraging each other. I was like, "What drug are these people taking?" And I wasn't doing drugs or anything like that. I'm not sure I drink my fair share of alcohol here and there in college, but I was intrigued. I was like, "Well, how are these people so joyful?" So, I kept coming back and I kept coming back and then I realized like, wow, okay, they have the love of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit with them, like I want this. And that honestly was where it changed my life. And I said that earlier, the tier one choices we make, that was the best decision that I ever made. It changed the trajectory on anything that I do professionally, the way I live my life, the way that I don't feel pressure with having to perform. And the second-biggest decision I made was marrying my wife, asking my wife Taylor to marry me and I cannot even imagine what life would be like without her. She is everything as in is makes me better, encourages me, just that was another best decision that I ever made. So, to me, I'm hitting home runs in the two most important areas of life and I wish that for everybody because if you're missing those, it's going to be a rocky road. I really believe if you miss those two, you're probably in for some strife in life.
Warwick Fairfax:
Talk about those two because obviously there's a link you write in the chapter about your wife when you tried to find a future partner in life, a future wife, and it didn't happen. And you wrote... I'm just going to sounds trite, but a lot of truth is trite in terms of the sayings. I'm going to let go and let God and just... I think within three months, you were having coffee with her in Los Angeles. So, I mean, it seemed there was a mindset shift, a choice that directly, at least as you write it, led you to meeting Taylor, maybe not just meeting, but maybe being in the right place to meet her. Does that make sense? Is that what you wrote or that sense?
David Nurse:
For sure. Yeah. And I think the biggest one there is people's decision, do you settle or do you pursue what you know is great? Do you settle for good or do you go for great? And I think that's a choice we make in a lot of different areas in life. And one of the biggest detriments to people is settling. And I truly believe people will Settle for the comfortable when they know the comfortable is not the great. I had this in a relationship before I met Taylor. I was like, "It's good sometimes and it's really bad sometimes, but is this what it's supposed to be?" And I had a friend tell me, he's like, "Hey, look, the struggles that you have now in that relationship, they're only going to 10X when you're married or if you have kids." And it hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm like, "Whoa, all right." So, there is better out there. And I made a non-negotiable list of the things that I wanted in a wife. I mean, it was spot on to what Taylor is and she's even more than that. Come to find out she had 52 different things that she'd been praying about since she was seven years old that she gave to me on our wedding day and I hit all of those, which I tooed my own horn here. I've got some good qualities here, but it was basically like spot onto that. So, it showed me don't ever settle because you'll just be miserable and actively pray for the things that you want in a spouse and actively ask God to open your eyes to find that person. And you can be very, very picky. And I don't think a lot of people tell you that. I think a lot of people will say, "Well, you make the most of it. You just married somebody you made." No, absolutely not.
Gary Schneeberger:
I have an interesting, to me anyway, about not settling. And it's funny because it came from a place of absolutely the worst motives ever. So, I'm in my late 20s and I meet this woman at a journalism conference. I was a reporter and she was engaged to somebody, but I liked her. So, I said to her, this is the phrase I came up with, "Never settle, strive." And it was purely selfish on my part. But guess what? 35 years later, that has become a motto of mine, and it has been for 35 years, this idea of not settling, striving, moving beyond, don't settle for the thing that's here, right? Don't settle for the grass, right? Pull up by the weeds. I mean, clear things out, do those kind of things. Don't settle for what looks like it might be good. Go after the thing that you know is good. So, I love hearing you say that. And I hope our listeners and viewers grasp that idea that you're not going to find the great movements of your life in settling, right? When I'm ready to go, I'm going to list the hundred things that I have done in my life. And I guarantee you of the top 100 things I've done, it's not going to be any time I spent watching Netflix. I can guarantee that's not going to be one of them. It's taking action and doing something towards the goals that you want to achieve.
David Nurse:
Man, I love that. I was telling somebody this the other day, and isn't it funny? I honestly, I can't remember series that Taylor and I watched like two weeks ago. We watched it in the evening, it's just like a little nighttime routine. We'll watch a show and stuff, and we'll be so into it. Two weeks ago, I can't remember the name of it. I can't remember what happened. What does that show you? Was that really important? Probably not.
Warwick Fairfax:
No, that's so good. One of the other things that's really interesting here is obviously the story you shared about sending handwritten notes to the 30 GMs and the NBA. I mean, that takes, I don't know if an insane level of confidence, persistence, it's remarkable. But one of the other things you say, which is very counterintuitive, everybody thinks networking is great. Find the people that can do stuff for you. And it's all about what they can do for you. But yet your mindset, you talk about having, was it like the Golden 15, you had this incredible instance in which here you were coaching on the coaching staff of the Brooklyn Nets, you're in Dallas, Dallas Mavericks, and Mark Cuban is there. He's on the court just practicing his shot. And you did something that I don't think anybody would actually do. It's like Mark Cuban, billionaire, goodness does. So, talk about what you did and what you didn't do, because it's incredibly counterintuitive, that whole instance. It's really a window into your philosophy that's not what many people would have.
David Nurse:
Yeah. I gave him shooting lessons. I gave him shooting lessons on the court before that game. And it wasn't out of a way of like, "Hey, I hope Mark can help me start a business or invest in something that I do someday." It was genuinely out of a... I had a passion for teaching people how to shoot a basketball. As weird as that might sound, I loved when people would become better shooters, more for the point of they become excited about what they were passionate in. To me, that vehicle was shooting a basketball, which I later realized is inspiring people for what they love to do and helping them uncover roadblocks to be able to get there. For Mark, he loved basketball. He loves it. And he was a really bad shooter and he's better now and not all thanks to me obviously, but gave him a few little pointers. And I told him I'd send him more drills because the real players had to start coming to warm up before the game. We were in Dallas before a Brooklyn Nets and Mavericks game. And he's like, "Yeah, he was really excited about it." So, I sent him over more drills in an email and just sent him an email the next day thanking him, right? Just didn't expect anything to come back from it. And I got an email five minutes later just thanking me for the time and everything. And we stayed in touch, are still in touch to this day. And if I ever have a business question, I can send Mark an email and ask him a question. And it's like, what better person in the business world to be able to have pick their brain or tap into than Mark Cuban? But that was all because I was helping him with something he was passionate about. I wasn't going up to Mark and saying, "Hey Mark, I've got this business question. Can you help me with the business?" So, there's different angles to be able to help people. And I think there's two types of people. There's givers and there's takers. And whether you get burnt by somebody you pour into, and I've been burnt many, many times and spend a lot of time, I'll serve people, I'll serve people, but I'll just keep doing it because it's all going to come back in the end. I don't know how it's going to come back. And there's been crazy ways where I did not expect something at all of a seed that I planted by serving somebody years ago and then they come around full circle. Like even this protein gummies company that I started, when I started raising money from it, I reached out to people who I'd served or knew years ago and they're like, "Yeah, I'm an investor. I would love to invest in this." I'm like, "My goodness." So, it just goes to show you is don't transactionally use somebody in a relationship, do it for the betterment of what you have gifted in you to be able to help them get excited, be passionate about what they're doing and then let it sit. Stay in touch with them, cultivate the relationship and maybe something will come back to you in the end. And in my own life, I can only speak from my own experiences and what I've seen in friends too, is it does come back to you. And it comes back to you from the right people as well. So, yeah, that's the crazy Mark Cuban story.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, that's just remarkable that you, and you talk about the golden 15 of having 15 relationships that you pour into. And again, your philosophy is not what you can get out of them, it's what you can give to them and how they can help you be a better person, but not about what they can necessarily do for you in your career. That is so counterintuitive. That is not traditional networking. It's anything but...
David Nurse:
Traditional networking just seems... I hated it when I was in a room and I'd be having a conversation with somebody and I could see their eyes darting around me, like looking up at who else is... I was like, "All right." And then you just make those decisions, right? You're like, "This is not a person that I want to be. I'm going to make these life decisions that reflect the better side of it and the human relationship side of it, instead of the transactional networking side of it."
Warwick Fairfax:
No, it's so well said. So, really at the end of the book, you summarize, you talk about relentless consistency, which obviously is in part being consistent in how you live out your faith every day. We'll have good days and bad days, but from my perspective, what's the trajectory? What's the arc of your life? If it's a graph, is it like down or is it up in terms of how you live out your faith and you redefine a series of terms, success, failure, joy, passion, confidence. So, talk about how, because your definitions are very different than the world's definitions. I mean, they're radically different. So, talk about those because none of them is what people would expect.
David Nurse:
Well, it all started for me in basketball players talking about going through shooting slumps. And every time somebody would talk about a shooting slump is where you're missing a lot of shots, their whole body language would just change. And what I realized is like, well, what if we changed the word slump to hippopotamus? Would it change it? And they would laugh and look at me crazy like, shoot, shooting hippopotamus, but like, look at that. It's just a word that you're letting dictate how you feel. And that's what got me onto this of like, whoa, why do we have to let these words that were taught be able to define how we feel of it? Like what if failure meant something different than what the world teaches us? What if wealth, what if confidence, what if they all meant something of a different fashion? And I'm a big believer in defining your own words, especially using failure, for example, like the two greatest basketball players of all time, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, and their mental coach is a good friend of mine, George Mumford, and he said they would look at games, they would look at wins and losses, not as wins and losses. They didn't care about that. They looked at things as momentum and learning. So, if they had a great game, they're like, "That's momentum. I built some momentum on this. I'm going to keep doubling down on this." So, if they had a bad game, they're like, "All right, how can I learn from it?" And it just changes the whole trajectory because you're not defining yourself as a winner or a loser, but you just love, like they did, the joy of the competition, but it's the competition with self, not that necessarily the competition with your neighbor or somebody else on social media. How do you continue to strive to be the best version of yourself? And I think, and it's also once again, it's not in a, "Hey, the pressure's on you." This is the joy. The joy of the constant growth and relentlessly pouring into yourself so that you can better others. And I think a lot of that we have to start with, a good spot for people to start with is redefine your own words. What does rich mean to you? What does it truly mean? Is it money or is it time with your spouse, your kids doing incredible experiences and adventures? What does failure look like? What does confidence look like? What does consistency look like? Define your own main important words, and that's where that concept came from. It's served me very well in life.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, you've talked about failure and that's really good. It's not a loss, it's a lesson. True success isn't tied to anything the world has to offer. It's living at each stage to come more fully who you are made to be, knowing you are doing so for a much bigger purpose than yourself. That truly is a great definition. Joy is understanding that extreme struggles and drastic changes you go through, all part of the adventure, shaping you into who you were made to be, passion, speaking into existence, what is it you want to be and taking their daily steps on the path to reach that goal. I love this one about confidence, being comfortable in your own skin, no matter how quirky it might look to you. And it's the knowledge you have a gift from God, specifically craft and creative for you. We're all quirky. We all have our things that our spouses know. Some they love, some they find annoying, but that's okay. We are who we are and being comfortable with yourself what's in all. I mean, this is really game changing all of these concepts. They're not normal concepts. I mean, do you find people look at you like you have two heads when you talk about these terms and say, "Say what?" Because you're talking at a foreign language for each of these words.
David Nurse:
Yeah, sometimes. I mean, the comfortable on your own skin is a fun one for me because I'll say things and do things in public that my wife's like, "What are you doing? What are you doing?" But it's just to see how people react and see how people feel and just show that be yourself. That's the most attractive quality somebody can have is just truly being who you are, not trying to put on a mask or trying to act like somebody that you're not, but just truly be comfortable with who God has created you to be and comfortable in your own skin. So, yeah, it's a different way to look at things, but I think when people hear it, they're like, "Yeah, I want that." That's very freeing for me.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I will display that I do that myself with all the bracelets that I'm wearing. I'm a devotee to that.
David Nurse:
I love it. I love it.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, I like how you end your book talking about choice and we all get to choose how we want to live. I know in my case at Beyond The Crucible, I love what I do with the podcast, helping people realize that they're not defined by their worst day because I, as listeners know very well, I was in that space, gosh, back in my 20s and early 30s when I did a 2.25 billion dollar takeover from my family's 150-year-old media business, which ended up after three years not working. So, am I going to be defined by a 2.25 billion dollar failure? I'd like to think not. And I think what's important to me, and fortunately for me, I found the Lord during my undergrad days at Oxford, but I really try and live that. So, for instance, I wrote a book Crucible Leadership a few years ago and I went around speaking and I'm not a natural speaker, but I got with some training got to, I think competent to the point where at least judging by the audience, I was effective even though I'm not a natural speaker, but I came to realize I don't enjoy that and I blessed financially in that I don't have to do that. And so, I do write blogs, podcasts, we're very active on social media, but I don't like traveling all over the place. And so, it's like, well, if I don't have to, I'm not passionate about it, even if I'm effective, then why do it? I get to choose to create my own life. I'm an elder at my evangelical church. I'm on a few other nonprofit faith-based organizations that I contribute to with some strategic advice and I love all that. That's part of what I love to do. So, everybody gets to choose their own adventures, choose their own life, but so often we're living the lives of others. And you have so many stories in your book about people living, certainly in sports, living their parents' dreams, which many athletes do. So, talk a bit about, I know it sounds simple, but you have a choice how you want to live your life. Don't live what you think people want you to live. And it seems like you've lived that to the max, is right? You constantly try to live in light of what you feel called to by the Lord, not because of what anybody else is telling you to do, right?
David Nurse:
Yeah, totally. And thanks for that. I mean, it is one thing that I do really make sure that I stay away from what the media is saying or what the world is saying, like this is what you need to pursue. Because I feel like they try to funnel you in a way that do this, do this, do this, don't take chances, don't take risks, just go with the flow. And that never turns out to be the right way. And it's, my dad was, and it's funny saying the masses are fill in the blank with that, so don't follow them, run the other way, run the other way fast if everybody's going one way. So, I think that's really stuck with me. And it's just been, whether it's very uncertain times when you go your own path, because it is uncertain, but you're doing your own path, your own thing. And the best way to summarize the whole podcast itself is God does have the plan. He's not going to leave you hanging. Go and just take action on your dreams and your goals and what God's called you to do, but know it's probably not going to be exactly what you foresee it to be, but it will be better because God has the ultimate plan.
Gary Schneeberger:
We promised David to get you out for your next meeting that you have. I also promised that before we did that, I would give you the opportunity to let listeners and viewers know how they can find out more about you on the worldwide web. How can they find more about David Nurse?
David Nurse:
Yeah. Website is davidnurse.com, social media, David Nurse NBA. Books are all out there in Amazon. Company is called More or Less Protein. It's Protein Gummies. It's a whole nother story in itself about relationships lead to incredible things. But yeah, I'm very easy to get ahold of. And I just want to thank you guys for this opportunity and thank you guys for what you are doing. You are using your skills, your gifts, abilities, and a platform to be able to show people the true light. And that's so needed, especially in today's day and age.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, David, let's say, there might be somebody here listening and it might be their worst day. They might think there is no hope. They're defined by that faded, by getting fired from that job. What would a word of hope be for that person?
David Nurse:
Just keep going. Don't give upness is the greatest skill that you can have. What if there's a word called don't give upness. Just don't give up. Keep looking at different opportunities of what are the skills you've developed through that thing that you just got fired or the door slammed in your face? Who are people, truth tellers around you that you can seek wisdom from who have been there before? Ask them, have them guide you. Somebody has gone through the exact thing that you're going through. Know that God has the overall plan. So, I know that wasn't just one thing, it was about three, but I think those in combination make a nice sandwich together.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject has been spoken and our guest today, David Nurse, has just spoken it. So, Warwick, we have just mere minutes ago finished our interview with David Nurse. Lots of great things. I know you were really excited about this going into it because you read his book and we're really moved by a lot of what he had to say. So, let our listeners and viewers know what's like one big takeaway you'd like them to take with them after they see this episode.
Warwick Fairfax:
Life is about choice. We use that word often up Beyond The Crucible and certainly the way David Nurse has led his life. He's made a lot of very good choices and it's really mindset shifts, which he talks a lot about in the book that we focused on. That was the one that he said us. It was actually his first book. It's called Pivot & Go: The 29-Day Mindset Blueprint to Redefine and Achieve YOUR Success. What's remarkable about David's story is here he is, is somebody that's very successful. He had a stint as part of the coaching team with the Brooklyn Nets. He has worked with over 1150 NBA players, helping them become better players and just coaching them in all aspects of their life. His achieved remarkable success, three books speaks all over the place, was voted I think one of the top 50 keynote speakers in the world. He's had a lot of success, but yet as he puts it, he comes from a small town in Iowa, not from any particular background of wealth or influence. And yet he had this dream of being an NBA player. Now he's not short his six two, but as any basketball fan will know, six two is still on the shorter side if you want to play in the NBA. A few more inches would have been helpful, but yet he didn't give up and he had all sorts of roadblocks. He ended up playing in Spain and Australia and just different leagues to try and make it to the NBA and it never worked out. So, in his 20s, he had to give up that dream. So, then he had this dream of being a coach and he achieved that. He was on the Brooklyn Nets coaching staff and helped them go from like 28th and shooting to second, which is pretty good, like outstanding. That was his expertise amongst other things is shooting. And yet a new coach comes in and as often happens, a new coach wants his own stuff. Well, that's common, but I'm sure David felt at the time, "Are you kidding me? Look what I've done. From 28th to second in shooting, you got to fire me?" And it's like, I'm sure they probably said things like it's not personal, but we're going in a different direction, all those wonderful phrases that we hate to hear. And so, he was out of a job. But yet, both of those crucibles, both not making it into the NBA and then getting fired as a coach in the NBA, yes, I'm sure there were periods of being angry and frustrated, yet he didn't let get him down. And I think one of the keys was his faith in Christ, which happened during his college years, gave him a different perspective that were not defined by each individual failure. Life's a journey. What can you learn from it? So, his capacity to learn and think differently is crazy. He's done bold things that I've rarely heard anybody do. One of the reasons he got into the NBA as a coach is he wrote handwritten letters to the 30 general managers of the NBA. After a month and a half, one got back and he talked about himself and maybe a few things about the team and that one relationship led to others that then led him to being a coaching staff in the NBA. Well, his philosophy about networking, which is not networking. The story he shared where he meets Mark Cuban, the then owner of the Dallas Mavericks when the Brooklyn Nets were playing the Mavericks and is out there before the game shooting and David Nurse being an expert on shooting gave him a couple tips and said, "Would you want me to give you some more tips?" "Sure." So, he gave him his email and he gave him a bunch of tips on how to shoot better and it really helped. Not once did he ask Mark Cuban, who's a billionaire, for help with anything. Now, who does that? I've never heard of anybody you think," Mark Cuban, he can take me to the next level in basketball or anything else." I remember at the time he's on the coaching style for the Nets. So, his focus on giving to others and just almost this ministry mindset of so many stories in his book of how he's tried to help others. He's been successful, but not because he's put his own agenda first. He's really in a sense tried to put the Lord's agenda first, be it in his marriage or in his career and he's constantly saying, "Okay, so this didn't work out. So, Lord, what's the plan here? What am I meant to learn?" He has this almost superhuman, I'd say, God-given mindset about not letting failure get him down and saying, "Okay." He has massive persistence, massive courage of trying things, no lack of courage here, but yet he is not defined by his worst day or his worst getting fired. His mindset and the way he chooses to look at life, we can learn a huge amount from us as we all go through the challenges we have in life.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, folks, until the next time we're together, please remember this. We know that your crucible experiences are difficult. David talked about several crucible experiences that he went through that were very difficult. Warwick, you know, has talked about his before. I've talked about mine before, but here's the other thing we know. We know that if we learn the lessons of our crucibles and we apply those lessons moving forward, it's not the end of our story. In fact, it can be the beginning of a profoundly new story that leads to the best destination you can possibly be led to, and that is to a life of significance. Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond The Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
William Wallace: Lessons in Building a Shared Vision
The historical figure we talk about this week, William Wallace, faces high stakes, and a high risk, in the 1995 Oscar-winning movie, Braveheart.
The story of his effort to build a shared vision among his Scottish countrymen to fight for their freedom is the focus of this first episode of our 2026 series within the show, More Stories from The Book Crucible Leadership.
Wallace may have lived in the 13th century, but the lessons we can learn from him on this critical aspect of leading a life of significance remain helpful to us in the 21st century.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. A key part of inspiring a shared vision is to help people look beyond their own self-interest to a vision of a greater purpose. And as we'll see, Wallace sees something in Robert the Bruce. "In the other nobles, what chance of success does he have?" He's probably thinking, "Slim to none, but I've got to try." With Robert the Bruce, he's thinking, "It's going to be a tough sell, but it just may be possible. It just may be."
Gary Schneeberger:
Those are high stakes and a high risk that the historical figure we talk about this week, William Wallace, faces in the 1995 Oscar-winning film Braveheart. The story of his effort to build a vision among his Scottish countrymen to fight for their freedom is the focus of this first episode of our 2026 Series Within the Show, more stories from the book Crucible Leadership. Wallace may have lived in the 13th century, but the lessons we can learn from him on this critical aspect of leading a life of significance are extremely relevant to all of us in the 21st century.
Welcome, friends, to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. It's that time of year again. The year is the calendar's flipped over to 2026. And we're recording our first show in what we're calling, as we have called before, the Series Within the Show once a month for the next year, except for our Summer Series part. But the Series Within the Show this year is a callback a little bit to two years ago when we did stories from the book Crucible Leadership, that's Warwick's book. Now we very creatively have come up with more stories from the book Crucible Leadership, just so everybody knows exactly what we're drilling into.
But we have something that we're doing that's a little bit different than what we've done before, and we'll tell you more about that in a bit. But just to level-set us on what Crucible Leadership is, it's The Wall Street Journal bestseller that was released in 2022, written by Warwick. And it's an important book because without that book, folks, without that book, there wouldn't be a Beyond the Crucible. There wouldn't be this podcast. There wouldn't be this brand. There wouldn't be this business if it weren't for that book that Warwick wrote.
But the angle that we've added to what we're doing here in the Series Within the Show is that some of the things that we're going to talk about from the book weren't in the printed copy of the book that I'm sure all of you ordered and have read. These are things that, as they say in the business, wound up on the cutting-room floor. Please understand, when I say that, it does not mean that they weren't good enough, that they're bad bits. It just means that there was such a multitude of good things to go in that book, these things just didn't make the cut.
These things were good stuff, but the great stuff that got in the book didn't quite allow for this to go in. So we want to make sure that you get to know those things that Warwick did write about back when he wrote his book. And so, that's why we're doing this Series Within the Show on more stories from the book Crucible Leadership. And we're beginning with William Wallace and the power and the importance of shared vision. You've heard us talk about shared vision a lot, but we're going to talk about it today in the context of the story of William Wallace, who, historical figure, but he's also a filmic figure in that he was the protagonist. He was the main character on which the story was based in the movie Braveheart.
So, all of that, that's a lot of me blabbing, Warwick. Let me ask you a question. And this is an important one. Why William Wallace? And why do you think that he's an example of the importance of shared vision as we begin this new dive into stories from the book Crucible Leadership?
Warwick Fairfax:
So, sometimes when we think of stories of visionaries motivating the troops or a nation, we think of presidents, kings, prime ministers, generals. But William Wallace is different. He's a great example of an ordinary person having the powerful ability to get so many people on board with his vision. He was not somebody that anybody had ever heard of. He was just a regular guy. But he was able to unite his fellow Scots and have a powerful influence on the leading figure to be the future king of Scotland, Robert the Bruce.
So, there are key elements in inspiring a team with shared vision. And one of the most important aspects of that is completely living that vision to your core and inspiring a team with a vision that they would have found hard to believe was possible before. And one of the keys of that is to help people look beyond their own self-interest, look beyond just a few feet in front of them, and to look for a vision that is bigger than they could have imagined, that fulfills some higher purpose. That is not normal for most people.
And so, the other aspect that this movie and story talks about is not just inspiring those around you, those that work for you and with you, but inspiring people at all levels, including those above us. Many of us work in organizations in which we have people two, three, four levels above us. And so, this story of William Wallace shows not just how you can inspire people around you and who work for you but those who are several levels above you, which often is necessary to have a vision become reality. It's really an inspiring story from which we can learn a lot.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And as Warwick has intimated there, what we're going to be talking about here isn't perhaps scholarly book studies of William Wallace. It is indeed the movie Braveheart, because the key elements that we want to talk about about shared vision come through very starkly, very clearly in the film. So that's the ground that we're going to cover here.
And it's important to note, just for those of you who've been with us before when we've done a summer series on movies, we're not going to do from the opening credits to the closing credits on Braveheart. We're going to focus on those things that really speak into the shared-vision aspect of what he does. So this is a little bit of a different approach to going after looking at the details of the movie. That's a fair assessment, isn't it, Warwick?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Yeah. We're really going to focus on the key aspects of the story of how to live a vision, how to share that vision at all levels. So we'll be talking about aspects of the story that really fit into William Wallace's ability to inspire the whole of the Scottish people with the vision that he has.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And that happens all the time. We prepared for this for... For a fair bit of time, we prepared for this episode. And then you just built a perfect bridge into the first question I'm going to ask you. So, that's fabulous. Or the second question I'm going to ask you.
And the first hint of William Wallace doing this in the film Braveheart is he loses his father early in the movie in a battle against the British, and the young man who returns, right? So he's a boy when he loses his father. The young man who returns to Scotland after living with his Uncle Argyle has a much different vision than William Wallace ended up having. So, talk about that a little bit, Warwick, because the William Wallace who comes back from Uncle Argyle's place to live again in Scotland among his clansman, not the guy we're going to see as this movie carries on, right? He's got a different kind of vision early, early, early on.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's very true. When we see William Wallace as a young boy, I mean, he's got to be, like, 5, 6. He's certainly less than 10. I mean, we don't quite know how old he is, but he's young. And we see his father and older brother go off to war. And he obviously wants to come with, as all kids want to go with parents, but he's obviously too young. And sadly, both his father and older brother are killed. Now, I don't know that we see his mother. So, at that point, it would seem like he's an orphan. And so he ends up going to live with his Uncle Argyle.
And this changes the trajectory of his life completely, not just because he's not with his parents, but his uncle, his Uncle Argyle, is a well-educated man. And the life he would live in just a very primitive... we wouldn't even call a house. It's almost like sort of grass thatching on it and wood, maybe stone. It's a very primitive existence. And his uncle is very educated. And so, when Wallace returns as a young man, he can read and write, which many people in his village would not have been able to, necessarily. Not only can he read and write, but he can speak French and Latin and has been to Rome, a very radically different existence than he would have had without growing up with his uncle.
Early on when William Wallace is a young boy, Argyle says, his uncle says to him, "William, you must use your mind. You must first use your mind, and then I will teach you how to use a sword." And this was a powerful life lesson, because as we'll see later in the movie, William Wallace's greatest weapon wasn't just his ability to wield the sword, which he was very proficient at. It was his intellect and cunning, that his mind was very finely honed, very adept, and that was arguably a greater weapon than his sword.
So, when he returns to the village, he's off somewhere else in Scotland, the townspeople ask if he wants to fight. They're tired of the English oppression. And so, Wallace says he wants to live in peace and raise a family. He doesn't want to go to war. That's not his mission. He just wants to live in peace, get married and have a family. That's the vision for his life at that point.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting that you mentioned what his uncle says to him, because before that, even, his father says, as you indicated, when William runs out as a boy to his dad and says, "I can fight," and his dad says, I have to find the exact phrase, "It's our wits that make a man a hero," his dad tells him. So, dad and uncle both have the same approach to... It's not just about brawn. It's not just about battle readiness. It's also about, it starts with what happens in the mind and in the vision, if you will, right? Having a vision for something. And I think that's what we see develop for William Wallace, for sure.
But Wallace's perspective on whether he's going to fight changes when he marries his childhood friend, Murron. She is killed for fighting to get away from an attack by British soldiers. And that changes Wallace's perspective completely from saying, "I just want a peaceful life." He was on his path to have that peaceful life, to have those children that he talked about. And then this tragedy happened with his wife being killed. That gives William Wallace a different vision in the aftermath of that work, but it's a narrow one. And it's still not the vision that certainly his life will be known for, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Well said, Gary. I mean, the death of his childhood friend, Murron, is transformative. So, when William Wallace returns, he's a young man, he sees this young woman, Murron. And she's somebody that he's known his whole life. I mean, when he was small, living back in the village, they knew each other. And he's immediately drawn to her, and they start courting, and they get married in secret.
Now, the reason they do this is that the English nobility, the English king, want to really make sure that the Scottish people are under thumb and exert their tyrannical rule. And they enforce this horrific thing called prima nocta. And what that means is that if a couple are about to get married, the very first night after the wedding, the local English noble has the right of first night, as in to be with, to lay with the bride. And so, this is obviously a horrific thing. And so, both William Wallace and Murron are aware of this. And so, they do indeed get, as I mentioned, caught and get married in secret.
But one time when Wallace is somewhere else outside the village, a group of English soldiers see Murron, and they're just common soldiers, and they proceed to try to rape her. And she fights back and maybe causes some degree of injury to one of the soldiers. And because she fights back, the local leader of the English troops, he might be a local noble, we don't quite know, he comes back and he wants to make an example of it. Basically, don't fight back, even against rape. I mean, it's a horrific thing that's going on here.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so, what this local English leader does is he ties Murron to a stake and he slits her throat with a dagger and kills her. So, Wallace later returns and sees that the English troops have killed the love of his life, and he is transformed. His vision of, "Hey, I just want to live in peace and raise a family," that is gone. The love of his life has been killed. And so, he is just filled with rage and bent on vengeance.
So, he, along with other Scots, go to the local garrison of the English troops where this local noble of that area is. And he kills many of those troops and captures the English leader, the local noble who's killed his wife, and he exacts his vengeance. He ties that leader to a stake. And in the same way that leader killed his wife, he also slits the throat of that leader. So, at this point, his vision is his vengeance and payback. He's filled with rage. That is the extent of his vision at this point.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. But that, again, as the movie goes on, as we learn more about him, as he encounters more of what's going on between England and his homeland of Scotland, there's really a critical scene, one of the film's most renowned, actually, that you unpack in detail in the piece of the book that ended up on the cutting-room floor. Talk about that scene and how it offers us guidance on crafting a shared vision, because it really is a masterclass in doing so.
Warwick Fairfax:
It surely is. So, as you've mentioned, initially, Wallace's vision after his wife is killed is narrow. He just wants to avenge the murder of his wife. But then it grows to abolishing this apparent practice of prima nocta first night of just the English troops, on nobility being able to sleep with the bride on her first night. And then it grows from there to being one of freeing Scotland from the English tyranny.
So, what's interesting is, William Wallace had no desire to be a hero or the leader of his people. He initially, again, was all about revenge. But Wallace's fame spreads because they hear about how he took on that English garrison and got payback for what they did to his wife. So people keep coming to him and they look to him to be their leader. Initially, he's a bit nonplussed. It's like, "I'm just a regular guy. I mean, what do you want from me?" kind of thing.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he actually, Warwick, he actually tells them, because I took a note when I watched it again yesterday, he actually tells them to go home. He tells them at first to go home. He doesn't want them to be part of what he knows is going to be a difficult vision. So he's trying to spare his kinsmen.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right. He doesn't necessarily want to lead this whole big vision. But he's a commoner, not of noble birth. And I don't think he necessarily wants to be this hero with this cause. But I think the Scottish people, they see him as one of them. He's not some noble. He's just a regular guy.
So, one of the key battle scenes in the movie is a Battle of Stirling Bridge, which was in 1297. And so we see the Scots, and they're arrayed in the battlefield. And on the other side of the field, we see the might of the English army. This isn't just some small garrison. This is the English army. And some Scots are getting nervous and saying, "Whoa, I don't know that I signed up for this. I mean, look at these. That's an organized army. We're just a bunch of regular people. We're not like trained soldiers. These people are."
And so then William Wallace gives this rousing speech, and he says the following. He says, "I'm William Wallace, and I see a whole army of my countrymen here in defiance of tyranny. You've come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What would you do without freedom? Will you fight?" And so then one of the folks in his army, one of these fellow Scots, says, "Fight against that?" pointing to this massive English army raid against them. "No, we will run, and we will live."
And then Wallace says this, and it's an incredible speech he gives. He says, "Aye," very Scottish, right? Means yes, as we all know. "Aye-"
Gary Schneeberger:
Very well done, by the way. Like, "Aye."
Warwick Fairfax:
"... fight and you may die. Run and you will live, at least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now. Would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell your enemies that they may take our lives, but they will never take our freedom."
So, this is an incredible example of William Wallace inspiring a shared vision. He's trying to help his fellow Scots have a vision that the seemingly impossible task of taking on the might of the English army, that they may have hope, that they might win. And even if they don't, at least they will have died fighting for freedom. I mean, this is not an easy sell. They're just regular people against the might of a trained army. And he says that they're fighting to be free men and ask them what will they do without freedom. Do they want to look back years from now and say what might have been? "I could have fought for freedom, but I didn't." You've got to live with the what-if. "Maybe we could have won, maybe not, but we'll never know."
So, Wallace is a common man like them. He's not wealthy. He has shown that he's willing to oppose tyranny and is living his vision and inspires Scots to live that vision, too, a vision more than just tending to their fields and their flocks, but a higher purpose vision, a vision of freedom against tyranny. It's just a remarkable speech. And he's somebody that... You can't really ignore William Wallace. He lives his vision, as we'll talk more about later. He's somebody that... When William Wallace gives a speech, he's one of them. He's been through incredible hardship. They respect him. It's tough to ignore William Wallace when he's giving this impassioned speech in front of the army, railed against the whole might of the English army. It's an incredible speech, incredible moment.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. So, let's move from 1297 to 2026, and folks who are listening, folks who aren't on the battlefield in Scotland, folks who are listening to us talk right now. There's something in what William Wallace does by just being so sold out to his mission that he encourages... He brings aboard, he captures with his rhetoric, with his inspirational notes, a team of fellow travelers. That's an important thing for us to know now, I mean, to just kind of take that and put that in our pockets as we look to build shared visions ourselves for the things that we have on our lists.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And we'll unpack this more as the movie goes on. But it starts with really being completely sold out for the vision. Well, he started off by taking on that English garrison and exacting revenge for the death of his wife. Here he is fighting for freedom for all of Scotland against the whole of the might of the English army. So, he's living his vision and is trying to inspire people to think beyond themselves, to inspire them beyond their fears and maybe narrow vision. And so, that's something that we can all learn from is inspiring people.
You've got to model the vision, but you want to inspire them to a vision beyond just their own immediate needs. You inspire them a vision that helps other people. We talk about a life of significance, a vision of a life of significance, of helping others making some impact in the world that we live in. And so, that's really what shared vision should be all about. You should be inspiring people to do what they think is almost impossible and to think of something that's beyond their own immediate interest, to help those around them and their neighborhood, their community, their country, maybe the world. That's what an ideal shared vision is, and that's what William Wallace is doing.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And he continues to have his vision grow as the film goes on. He continues to strengthen his vision and motivate others to join him in an important scene that follows what we just talked about, that battle where he gives that rousing speech. Talk about that scene of, again, the next thing that happens in this film that really solidifies his vision and gets more people to climb aboard it.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Wallace is a very smart man. He realizes it's not enough to inspire his fellow Scots, regular folks, the common people, as they would be called back then. He realized that's critical. But what is also critical is he has to get the powerful Scottish nobles. They have influence, troops, money. He knows they're not going to win without the support of the Scottish nobles. And he realizes that this is not easy because the English king Longshanks, who we see in the movie, who's a very ruthless man, but also a cunning, a smart man. He's no idiot, Longshanks.
And so, what is customary back then is you try to buy off those who might oppose you. So, he gives the Scottish nobles position and land, some even in Northern England. He gives some of the English nobles some land and position in Scotland. He's trying to make sure that people have a vested interest in opposing the Scots and standing up for the English crown. So, this is not an easy sell.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. I mean, even him bringing back prima nocta, right? There's that scene where, "Hey, if we want to get the nobles on our sides, let's just do this thing."
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, he's very good at that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. It's such a good point. So, it's, why should the English nobles go there? Well, they have this whole, the young women on the night that they'll be married, being able to lay with them, kind of take advantage of them. For some, that's an attractive proposition, very sadly.
So, really, what Wallace does is he tries to appeal to the hearts of these nobles and tries to help them think beyond their own self-interest, which is not easy. I mean, these are people with castles, position. In today's age, it's like, "Don't just think about you're CEO of X company and you have this $10 million home and all this money. Think beyond that." It's like, "Okay, why is that? Because life is pretty good. I'm enjoying everything I have. Why should I think beyond the wealth and power and position that I have?" Whether it's 1297 or 2026, it's not an easy sell.
And so, Wallace starts to leave a meeting of the Scottish nobles and he's stopped by one of the nobles, because he's sort of disgusted with what he sees, really. They're just all about their own self-interest. And so, one of the nobles says... Oh, I should add, because of Wallace's triumph at the Battle of Stirling, he's made a knight, which he's a-
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. He becomes a noble.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. He becomes Sir William Wallace. He still thinks of himself as a commoner. Just because he's got a title, I don't think he instantly gets a castle and money. We don't really see any evidence of that. You've got a title. Well, great.
Anyway. So, one of the nobles says to him, "Sir William, where are you going?" And Wallace says, "We have beaten the English, but they'll come back because you won't stand together." In other words, the English nobles. This nobleman says, "Well, what will you do?" So Wallace says, "I will invade England and defeat the English on their own ground." This noble says, "Invade? That's impossible." I mean, it's one thing to try to stop the English in Scotland, but he's thinking, "Go to England and invade." That's, like, insanity.
And Wallace says, "Why? Why is that impossible? You were so concerned with squabbling for the scraps of Longshanks' table..." In other words, the king of England. "You're so concerned with squabbling for the scraps of Longshanks' table that you've missed your God-given right to something better. There is a difference between us. You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think position exists to provide those people with freedom, and I go to make sure that they have it."
I mean, he is really appealing to the better angels, the better motivation of these Scottish nobles. And when you look at that scene, it's like, what is there to appeal to? Are there any better angels within them? They're all about their own self-interest. You're thinking, talk about mission impossible. I mean, he's giving a speech to people that there's no way they're going to listen. I mean, why would they? To fight against the might of the English army with this sort of ragtag group of Scottish people. But he says, "Don't just think of your position, but realize you've been given this position," I'm assuming maybe by God or however he looks at it, "to fight for people."
Gary Schneeberger:
And then there comes not the introduction of, but really the most vivid scene with the rightful heir to the Scottish throne, Robert the Bruce, which, side note, when this movie came out in 1995, I worked with a guy named Bruce and he got very sick of us calling him Robert the Bruce.
Warwick Fairfax:
You should have told him, "Bruce, you should be honored. What a noble name, Robert the Bruce." You know?
Gary Schneeberger:
I know, I know. Right. But Robert the Bruce starts playing a bigger role in the film at this point. And Robert the Bruce is pivotal to Wallace's shared vision becoming reality. There's a scene that really unpacks that. Talk about that scene where how important Robert the Bruce is to the vision that William Wallace has and which he wants to have others share with him.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, right after the scene with the nobles, the Scottish nobles, in which doesn't really seem like they're on board with Wallace's vision of freedom, he's leaving, and Robert the Bruce goes after him. And it's clear that he's really struck by what Wallace has said. So they get in a discussion about balancing the desire for freedom and keeping the nobles happy, because Robert the Bruce is a smart guy. He said, "It's not easy to get these nobles to think beyond their self-interest and power and position."
And so, Robert the Bruce says this. "I'm not a coward. I want what you want, but we need the nobles." So Wallace says, "We need them? Nobles? Now tell me, what does that mean to be noble? Your title gives you claim to the throne of our country, but men don't follow titles, they follow courage. Now, our people know you. Noble and common, they respect you. And if you would just lead them to freedom, they would follow you. And so would I."
Wallace is appealing to Robert the Bruce, the most important Scottish noble, the most influential, and the leading figure to be the future king of Scotland. He tells Bruce that men don't follow titles, they follow courage. He says that if Robert the Bruce would just lead them to freedom, the Scottish people, the regular folks, they would follow Robert the Bruce. So, Wallace is trying to get him to think more than about his self-interest and money. And he has, obviously, a lot of it as a leading Scottish noble and to think about the Scottish people.
A key part of inspiring a shared vision is to help people look beyond their own self-interest to a vision of a greater purpose. And as we'll see, Wallace sees something in Robert the Bruce. "In the other nobles, what chance of success does he have?" He's probably thinking, "Slim to none, but I've got to try." With Robert the Bruce, he's thinking, "It's going to be a tough sell, but it just may be possible. It just may be."
Again, we cannot underestimate how intelligent and discerning William Wallace is. He knows how to understand what's in the heart of a person. He has this sixth sense of where they are and what he can do to appeal to them to accomplish his vision. And he sees something in Wallace. And we'll see through the course of the movie, he's really trying to fight for Robert the Bruce.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And that brings us on the precipice of another thing we talk about a lot at Beyond the Crucible, and that is this idea of having fellow travelers. You have to be wise about the way you pick fellow travelers. And really, in our terms in 2026, what William Wallace sees in Robert the Bruce is someone who would make an ideal fellow traveler, not having the same skills necessarily that he does. He's got higher rank. He's got more money. He's got all those things. He's not exactly like him, but he's someone who can help him carry out his vision. And that really is a fellow traveler that he's eyeing when he's talking to Robert the Bruce, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It surely is. He sees somebody that he thinks he can win over, and he's a critical fellow traveler. It's helpful to have fellow travelers of all different kinds. But if you've got a vision that you are passionate about, if you can find a fellow traveler that has a fair amount of position and influence and the ability to make your vision become reality, that's a pretty key fellow traveler.
You could be working in a large organization. You've got this idea for a new product line, new vision, something that will take the company to the next level. If you're able to get somebody in senior management on board with that vision, that is absolutely critical fellow travelers. It's great to have all your buddies that you work with say, "I think this is a great idea, but I have zero influence or ability to make it happen, but I'm with you. Let me know if you get the green light from corporate and I'm on your team. But until then, just let me know."
So, having fellow travelers who have influence and position and the ability to help you. Who you pick as fellow travelers is important. And certainly, this is arguably the most important fellow traveler that William Wallace needs to get on board to get freedom for Scotland.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And yet William Wallace, I think, at this point in the film, sees more character in Robert the Bruce than Robert the Bruce manifests in his own life, and certainly, than he's... that he's brave enough to share, to show. He's fearful. And we'll see why his dad plays a major role in that. There's another interaction between Wallace and Robert the Bruce that follows immediately after the scene that we've been talking about. Unpack that scene a little bit to, again, show folks how this is on a continuum and it keeps moving forward. William Wallace is almost unrelenting in his wooing of Robert the Bruce to be someone who shares his vision with him.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. So, there's this other interaction where Wallace again appeals to Robert the Bruce. So, there's a dialogue that goes like this. Robert the Bruce says this. "Now you," as in Wallace, "Now you have achieved more than anyone dreamed, but fighting these odds, it looks like rage, not courage."
So Wallace says this. "It is well beyond rage. Help me. In the name of Christ, help yourself. Now is our chance, now. If we join, we can win. If we win, then we will have what none of us have ever had before, a country of our own. You're the rightful leader, and there is strength in you. I see it. Unite us. Unite us. Unite the clans."
Wallace appeals to the strength of character that he sees inside Robert the Bruce. He says that if Bruce will join them, they will win. He sees the inner strength within Robert the Bruce, his character. He says, "Unite us. Unite the clans. Unite the Scottish people." So, basically, what we see in these scenes is that Wallace is fighting for the soul of Robert the Bruce. If he wins this battle for Bruce's soul, then Scotland may be free. If he doesn't, then the Scots unlikely to win their freedom.
Sometimes when you're trying to get people on board, that's what happens. It's funny, one of the things before we aired, we've also talked about William Wilberforce, William Wallace, William Wilberforce.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It was me always saying Wilberforce by mistake, yes. Thank you for not calling me out on that work. I raise my hand and take the flower.
Warwick Fairfax:
But the reason I mention that is because later on in the late 1700s and early 1800s, Wilberforce is in a similar situation in that he is striving to abolish the slave trade in the British Empire. And here's a conservative member of parliament, and he's trying to appeal to the better angels of other members of parliament who have a huge amount of economic interest in the slave trade.
And he's saying to them, "I realize this pours in millions," or the equivalent of billions of dollars or pounds, "into the coffers of the country," and I'm sure probably helps them in their own self-interest. "But think about morality. The slave trade is morally wrong. We're meant to be religious people here. It's against God's plan. It's morally wrong." So, again, a tough sell. It's similar in the sense that both Wilberforce and Wallace are appealing to the better angels of those in power against their own self-interest. Ultimately, Wilberforce succeeds. And it took decades. But ultimately, the slave trade is abolished. And we'll see how things unfold for William Wallace. So, there are some similar beats to those stories.
Gary Schneeberger:
To the Williams. Now I'm going to say Wilberforce, but I don't mean to. I'm turning my brain the other way so that doesn't happen. Talk a little bit now, Warwick, about the Battle of Falkirk and its aftermath. And it causes a change in the same way that we saw a change caused in William Wallace earlier in the film when his vision went from peace, then to vengeance, and then it went to freedom for his people. Robert the Bruce has a change happen to him that's tied to the battle of Falkirk. Talk about that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. This is one of the saddest moments in the movie, maybe the saddest. I mean, there are some other sad moments, but this is a real low point. So, in the Battle of Falkirk, the English army, they beat the Scots. Now, the Scots won before, but the key difference is this. The Scottish nobles, you see them on horseback and cavalry on the side of the battlefield, and they leave the battle. Right in the middle of the battle, there's arrows, there's swords blazing, and they leave the battlefield.
Throughout this battle, we see a noble on horseback amidst the English army. He has a helmet on. You can't see his face. It's a closed helmet. Later, we learn that that nobleman who's on the side of the English is none other than Robert the Bruce. And so, later on, after the battle is over, Wallace and Robert the Bruce encounter each other and Robert the Bruce takes off his helmet. And Wallace is absolutely crushed and devastated to see that Wallace has betrayed him. He was fighting on the side of the English army. There's almost a tear in his eye. You can see he's just absolutely broken. And that look of brokenness and betrayal on Wallace's face, that will sear deep into the soul of Robert the Bruce. It's a look that Robert the Bruce I don't know that will ever be able to get out of his soul and his consciousness.
And so, there's a powerful scene after that between Robert the Bruce and his father. Now, his father is more pragmatic. He's a realist. He wants to preserve position and power.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. That's a very charitable term. His father's perhaps more... I mean, yeah, he is pragmatic. I mean, what does he say to his son? He says, "You're the 17th Robert the Bruce." That means that 16 people before you have built up all of this wealth and all these lands and all this stuff. So, he's very much about what he can gain from the position. So, yes, he's pragmatic.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It's all about power and money. And freeing the Scottish people, not so much, not high on his agenda. It's not even anywhere on his agenda.
So, there's this ensuing dialogue. So, the father says, "Son, we must have alliance with England to prevail here. You achieved that. You saved your family, increased your lands. In time, you will have all the power in Scotland." So Robert the Bruce says, "Lands, title, men, power, nothing." The father says, "Nothing?"
And so then the son, Robert the Bruce, says this. "Men fight for me, because if they do not, I throw them off my land. I starve their wives and their children. Those men who bled the ground red at Falkirk, they fought for William Wallace, and he fights for something that I've never had. And I took it from him when I betrayed him, and I saw it in his face on the battlefield, and it's tearing me apart."
The father says, "All men betray. All lose heart." And Robert the Bruce says this. "I don't want to lose heart. I want to believe as he does. I will never be on the wrong side again." That is a powerful statement.
Robert the Bruce's father is fighting to ensure that his son stays on the side of pragmatism, wealth, money, position, make sure you're going to be the future leader of Scotland. We've seen this moment that this battle for Robert the Bruce's soul is being won by William Wallace and his vision.
So, I think there's a powerful lesson here. Sometimes people will disappoint us. Maybe people have influenced the position, our bosses, parents, maybe mentors. They might let us down and they just follow their own self-interest. They won't help us. They won't follow a vision of higher purpose. And it can be crushing.
But what William Wallace shows us is don't give up. Keep appealing to the better angels of those people. Keep appealing to the goodness within their soul that somewhere in there maybe does want to believe that a higher purpose, a life of significance, a life beyond their own self-interest matters. So, if at first you don't succeed, don't give up. Keep appealing to the better angels of those often powerful people we try to influence. It could be people in your company, in your family, in your county, state. Just don't give up appealing to the better angels of those you might perceive as having more power and influence than you do. It's a powerful example that William Wallace gives us.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting to hear you talk about Wallace doing battle for Robert the Bruce's soul. Because at Beyond the Crucible, we talk a lot, you talk a lot about doing the soul work. And what happens here, really, is Robert the Bruce isn't able, because of his dad's influence or whatever, he's not really able to do a lot of soul work on his own. But William Wallace does soul work on his behalf and for him and he sees it reflected in Wallace. And that's what ultimately changes him, right? I think what you're talking about is someone helping someone do the soul work. I mean, when he says, "I want to be this," to his father, the soul work's been completed. He's done some soul work. But that's another aspect of what we do at Beyond the Crucible that we encourage people to get to. And I think it's important to see that Wallace helps Robert the Bruce get there.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such an important point you're raising, Gary. When we think about inspiring a shared vision, a critical part of it is the soul work. We're fighting for the souls of men and women, in our families, that we work with, that are in our counties, states, countries. We're trying to fight to help people think beyond their own self-interest, think of the interest of their family, their company, their state, their nation, their planet. You want them to think of just more than just their own self-interest.
And ultimately, when people are living a life of significance, living a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others, that gives more joy and fulfillment than any amount of money and position can ever give you. I mean, a while back, we did a podcast on Citizen Kane. Was it Charles Foster Kane?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Charles Foster Kane, yep.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And he spent his whole life getting money and power and newspapers, and he dies alone in abject poverty of the soul. None of his money will he be able to take with him. He'll be left with nothing after he dies in that sense, from an eternal perspective. And so, yes, he was very wealthy with this massive estate, but he was poverty-stricken in the soul. You don't want to be Charles Foster Kane.
So, that's really what Wallace is fighting for. And really, more broadly, fighting for the souls of people, it's a noble cause. You're trying to help free them from the tyranny of self-interest and narrow sectarianism and all that. You're trying to help, to appeal to the better angels to fight for a noble cause, a life of significance, a life that helps other people and maybe even the world in some sense. So, really, the core of getting people on a shared vision, at least one that's a noble vision of a higher purpose, is you're fighting for the souls of people. It's a great point.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Well, we're at that point in the film and the story of Wallace's life where Robert the Bruce has gotten his soul activated, alive. So, talk a little bit about what happens next and the legacy of William Wallace, certainly as displayed in this film, but in real life as well.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, unbeknownst to Robert the Bruce, the Scottish nobles lay a trap for Wallace. Clearly, they're focused on self-interest. "We're going to carry favor with the English King Longshanks." And so they lure him into a trap, and Wallace is captured by the English troops. He's sent to London to face torture and execution. And so, the executioner basically says, "I can give you mercy," which means a quick death. That's what mercy means in this sense. But you will have to swear allegiance to the King of England.
And before he dies, Wallace is, I think, praying in a sense and saying, "God, just basically, give me strength to die well. I want to die well," because he wants to continue to inspire the Scottish people. He doesn't want to just whimper, which would be pretty understandable under torture. He doesn't want to take anything away from the cause of freedom. He knows he may die, but I don't think he's given up on the whole notion of freedom for the Scottish people.
And so, he refuses to show allegiance to the King of England. And he is executed. But what's amazing is, he's in London. This is just English people. They're not Scots. But at first, they abuse him and boo at him. But as they see his strength and his courage, and the last words he shouts with his almost last breath is freedom. And they shout to the executioner mercy, as in, "Please, let's get this over with." You can even see the executioner, who does this for a living, is moved, which is unbelievable, because executioners typically are not moved by these things. So, even then, you can see his vision. He's inspiring people even outside of Scotland.
After this, after Wallace is executed, we shift to the Battle of Bannockburn. And here we see Robert the Bruce, he's leading the Scots in victory against the British troops, and they actually do win freedom for the Scottish people. Now, it's not going to be lasting freedom in the sense of, yes, there will be a Britain and United Kingdom, but at least for a time, there is freedom for the Scottish people.
And here we have Robert the Bruce in front of his Scottish troops as Wallace was before. And he said that they have bled with Wallace, now bleed with him. So he is inspiring the Scots to have a shared vision of freedom the way that Wallace did before. He is really now in Wallace's shoes. It's truly remarkable. And even though he's a noble, he's not a commoner like pretty much everybody fighting there, he inspired the Scots. They believe now in Robert the Bruce. They believe that Robert the Bruce really does believe in the vision of freedom. He's now standing in the place, taking up the mantle of Wallace's legacy.
So, what's interesting is, fast-forward many hundreds of years, it's remarkable the final testimony to the power of this movie Braveheart and the story of William Wallace. So, in 1997, two years after the movie came out, there is a vote for a new Scottish Parliament. It's not complete independence, but it's certainly more autonomy for the Scottish people. So it's been said by some commentators that this new Scottish Parliament was powerfully influenced by the movie Braveheart and William Wallace's story.
In some sense, Wallace's battle for freedom for the Scottish people, it lived on hundreds of years later. And certainly, some measure of freedom was achieved by the legacy of William Wallace in 1997 when they voted to have a Scottish Parliament, which they have to this day. His legacy is just remarkable.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, Warwick, what are the big takeaways of William Wallace's story that we've discussed today that can help our listeners and viewers make their vision a reality, make their shared vision a shared reality? What are some of the takeaways that we've talked about today?
Warwick Fairfax:
So, inspiring a shared vision, it starts with completely living that vision. William Wallace may have begun his vision as one of vengeance to want a payback for the death of his wife and just the rape and just the murder of his wife. But his vision grew to be a vision of freedom for all of the Scottish people. His life is so inspiring in that he was just a regular man, just a common man. And ordinary people came up to him, and they wanted to fight for freedom by his side. He didn't look to lead a movement. The movement found him. It's just quite remarkable. He wasn't trying to be a leader, but people saw themselves in him. Somebody who had courage and would fight for freedom.
Not only is it important to wholly live that vision, but we have to inspire people by word and deed to not just look to their own self-interest but to a higher purpose. Wallace did that at the Battle of Stirling Bridge when some Scots were getting a little nervous, a little weak in the knees because they were just regular folks, farmers, herders, tradesmen, against the might of the English army. It's understandable they'll be anxious. And so he appealed to look beyond their own self-interest to a higher purpose, to fighting for freedom from themselves and their families.
But he also appealed to the better angels of the Scottish nobles, which was a tough sell, but especially Robert the Bruce. Wallace knew that Bruce was the leading candidate to be the future king of Scotland. And so, Wallace just saw something in Robert the Bruce, some small ember of character, of love of country, somebody that would fight for freedom. And so, Wallace was a smart guy. He knew that without Bruce, without Robert the Bruce, victory would be impossible. He might have all of the common people on his side, but without the nobles, especially Robert the Bruce, victory was impossible.
Sometimes there are critical people that we have to have on board for our vision to succeed, maybe people of power and wealth or position in our organization or our neighborhood or our country. People are naturally going to gravitate to their self-interest. Certainly, the power and wealthy will absolutely do that. We need to appeal to their better angels and their power of a higher purpose to get them on board with our vision.
We said before, William Wilberforce did in the battle to abolish the slave trade in the British Empire in the late 1700s and early 1800s. In a similar way, in a sense, in an earlier time, in the late 1200s, we've got William Wallace appealing to not just the regular people, the common men and women. He's appealing to the Scottish nobility, especially Robert the Bruce, the potential future king of Scotland.
It's just a remarkable story about the strength of modeling a vision and somebody that was doing whatever it takes to accomplish that vision using cunning, guile, intelligence, because this was a noble vision, a vision for freedom, to help people think beyond themselves for a higher purpose. It's a great role model.
And we might think that our battle to achieve our vision is not easy and our battle to get people on board with our shared vision is not easy. Think of William Wallace. He's up against the might of the English army, of the English King Longshanks. I mean, that's, like, a million-to-one odds. That's not an easy call. And he's trying to convince these Scottish nobles to back him when they're getting bribed by the English king with position and wealth and land. Why in the world would they listen to this common man? The chance of success feels like a million to one. So, if William Wallace can do it, I think there's hope for the rest of us.
Gary Schneeberger:
It's a great place to land the plane here, Warwick. And that does, indeed, friends, wrap up our first Series Within the Show episode on more stories from the book Crucible Leadership. We'll turn the page next month to another story to help you turn the page and move beyond your crucible to a life of significance.
From Success to Surrender: Chris Arnold
Our guest this week, Chris Arnold, says he dialed into a deeper, more fulfilling calling after he was let go from his six-figure corporate job. That’s right, his crucible didn’t happen to him, he says, but for him.
It was only after being freed from what he describes as the “golden handcuffs” of his job that he was able learn the lessons he’s packed into his book, FROM SUCCESS TO SURRENDER.
He and Warwick go through the key lessons he’s learned along his journey, including “success isn’t measured by what we achieve but by who we become” and “our greatest growth often comes through our deepest struggles.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax: Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Chris Arnold: The light bulb coming on of and starting to ask the question around significance. What's significance? And just really starting to... I mean, I was never in the first half of my life trying to look through the lens of what's significance. And so it was during the season. I was like, okay, significance. What does that look like?
Gary Schneeberger: That's our guest this week, Chris Arnold, discussing how he dialed into a deeper, more fulfilling calling after he was let go from his six-figure corporate job. It was only after being free from what he calls the golden handcuffs of that position, that he was able to learn the lessons he's packed into his book, From Success to Surrender. He and Warwick go through all of those lessons in this week's episode, including success isn't measured by what we achieve, but by who we become. And our greatest growth often comes through our deepest struggles.
Warwick Fairfax: Well, Chris, welcome. It's wonderful to have you on the podcast and definitely enjoy learning more about you and reading your book, From Success to Surrender. Love that title, Finding Your True Purpose in God's Perfect Timing. So we're going to talk quite a bit about what success to surrender means and a bit about Chris. Chris has spent 25 plus years as a founder, executive CEO, and advisor, launching ventures, leading teams, and helping leaders navigate growth crisis and transition. Says he lives in Indiana in Zionsville. Is that correct?
Chris Arnold: Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax: And with his wife, Lisa, and I know you have two kids having read the book, son and daughter. And you're active in your local community and mentor leaders and couples in the seasons of change. And I also saw another page that you speak from the boardroom and the breaking point, former corporate director and business advisor. He's lived a painful gap between success and significance. His journey through job loss, financial uncertainty, and spiritual awakening, uniquely positioned him to guide leaders seeking purpose in the marketplace. So a lot of good stuff. I love the phrases I read on the website, guiding leaders and families towards purpose-driven success. A lot of great things on there. So before we get to the crucible, Chris, talk about what was life growing up like for you? Talk about your parents, because they had a certain set of values and expectations for you that kind of set you, what influenced your path.
Chris Arnold: Well, absolutely. And thanks again for the invite to be here. So yeah, growing up, I grew up in a small town in Indiana, just west of the Indianapolis area. And my mom and dad were self-employed. My mom and dad owned a commercial laundry and dry cleaning business and a retail clothing business. And so I can remember growing up and working alongside dad and mom as early as kindergarten, I would get out of kindergarten, I'd be working on the flat iron folding sheets with the old ladies, their commercial laundry business. And just a lot of fond memories growing up, working alongside my parents and my sisters as well. They both, we all worked together. Self-employment sometimes is not everything that's cracked up to me. So mom and dad wanted the kids to go off school, get good grades and get a real job. So that's what all three of us did. We all went to college. I went to a school, engineering school, Rose Holman Institute of Technology, and I graduated from there in 1991. And then I was a mechanical engineer and went off into the metals industry at that point in time and started working in the metals industry.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. I mean, talk about pre-crucible. What was your frame of mind as you sort of navigated your way through life?
Chris Arnold: Yeah. I mean, it's a great question because to your point, I mean, the values of my dad I always talk about with teams are things like integrity, honesty, and hard work. My mom was a very driven person as well. So really both parents, very driven, hard workers, and that's how we grew up. I mean, we grew up working hard and grew up with the anticipation that if you worked hard, then you could achieve great things.
Warwick Fairfax: I guess 2008 was it was that the defining year. And I read somewhere that a few years back, maybe it was 2003, that your company got bought out, at least your division by a private equity firm, which I think against private equity, but that's never a good thing. If they tend to be focused purely on... I mean, it's fine to focus on money, but it's not always a long term horizon. A lot of certainly in corporate America, it's often what's quarterly earnings per share and how's that all work? And so it can change the dynamics of the company and how it looks at strategy and say long term potential is probably short term potential. So yeah, once that happened, I imagine some people might have been nervous, "Gee, what does this mean?" And sometimes you get a right to be nervous. So leading up to 2008, it felt like you felt that something was going to happen, like the writing is on the wall. So talk about, I mean, how did you feel like you knew? Because it sure felt like when the conversation happened, "Hey, Chris, can you come to my office?" There's a certain tone in that conversation sometimes. It's like, "Hm, this doesn't sound good." So how did you kind of know?
Chris Arnold: Well, and it's interesting that you mentioned 2003 and the buyout. So prior to that time, I was on the fast track. I mean, in early 30s, one of the youngest site leaders in a billion dollar multi-billion dollar manufacturing corporation. And so, and my success to that point was inspiring teams and employee engagement and really just the facility I was at in 2002, 2003 timeframe was a turnaround type of opportunity with a new acquisition and just really a great success story. And then in 2003, what ended up happening was is that the private equity firm took over. The gentleman that took over as president of the company, I wasn't necessarily 100% aligned with him initially on, myself and several on the regime. So actually several people in my regime got their papers during 2003 to exit. I was able to continue to stay on board, continue to build trust in that relationship. And for the next few years, I mean, we started to do a lot of great things with a turnaround from another facility and a new facility that we built in Arkansas in 2006 and 2007, which I had the privilege of leading the team to do. So again, during that whole season though, especially again, kids were probably at this stage, I'm thinking 10 and eight years old, my son, 10, daughter, eight years old, and I'm doing a lot of traveling. So I mean, until 2005, I'd leave out on a Monday and I'd be back on Fridays. Again, great success story, same thing in '06, '07. I mean, we had a second house on a lake and I can remember distinctly one summer that I never even saw our primary residence. I would meet the family at the lake house and we'd enjoy a weekend together. I'd wash my clothes and then I'd be off on Mondays again. So there was just things in my life that just I wasn't completely fulfilled and just the priorities I was wrestling with from a faith standpoint, I tell people I accepted Christ when I was in middle school. So there was a little bit of a faith element to things and a little bit of conversations that I was trying to have with the Lord along the way and some of these trips driving back and forth. But at the end of the day, I just was wrestling quite a bit on where I was at. And I tell people that I couldn't make the decision. It's the traditional golden handcuffs. I mean, making a pretty good six figure income and again, having the house, the kids, the lake house, second house. I mean, not that we were living extravagant lives, but living meaningful lives. And so I tell people, God made it for me. And so in 2008 when the economy tanked, myself and a couple other executives were approached with severance packages. And yeah, that moment is a very memorable moment on multiple occasions. So I think you kind of alluded to, I got a phone call to head back to the corporate office at one of our manufacturing facilities. A couple of people had been let go the day before and I just called my wife on the way to there and I said, "Honey, I think that today might be the day." And so I arrived back at the corporate office. I actually packed my stuff because I was like, "I'm pretty confident this is it." So my stuff was in a box, created up, ready to go when the senior director of HR came in and said, "Hey, you got a moment to come down to the conference room." And so he walked into the conference room and of course did the typical conversation around, "Hey, we're going to downsize, let you go." And walked, I drove a company car, so cab ride on the way home and they called the cab and we were just waiting there. The HR guy was so embarrassed because the cab was late, so we're standing outside just waiting. And so the cab driver finally comes up and I'm getting in the car and I said, "How's your day going? So I guess it's going better than yours." And I said, "You never know, brother. This could be the best day of the rest of my life."
Warwick Fairfax: Because he saw your little crate with a dead giveaway that you might have gotten let go, right?
Chris Arnold: Yeah, absolutely. Yep. So it's about 45 minute ride from the corporate office to my house and we enjoyed a great conversation. So good that once he got in my driveway, he wanted to continue the conversation. So he got out of the car. We continued the conversation, walked out to the pond behind my house and had some good conversations about fishing and took him back and showed him a fish that my son had caught and just really had a great conversation with him. And he said, "Brother, you're going to be okay." He said, "I'm a cab driver, but I'm also a counselor on the side. That's really my primary role. And a lot about this is just how you react to your circumstances. And I can tell that you're going to react in a positive way." And then stepping inside, Lisa was sitting there on the couch and I just, as I walked in with my boxing hand, I mean, she remembers this to this day is like seeing me walk in with that box and just being brokenhearted, but yet screaming at the top of my lungs, I'm free and really feeling like that and experiencing that in that moment was like, "Yeah, it was tough and nobody wants to go through that experience." However, there was a sense of freedom at that moment of saying, "Okay, don't know what's next, but I do know that this feels right."
Warwick Fairfax: So talk about those early days. I think you had, I don't know if it was 40 days, but a period of time in which you reflected basically as you journaled and prayed, "Well, God, what next?" And I felt like some people talk about doing business with God or maybe it's God doing business with us depending on how you look at it, I suppose. But it felt like those were pivotal days in your life. So what were some of the thoughts and the discussions that were going on in your head between you and yourself, you and God, God and you? I mean, there was a whole series of dialogues going on. So talk a bit about those dialogues as yes, you were free, but there was a lot of things to think about and consider and, gee, where am I going with my life? Where have I been? Where do I want to go? There was a lot of very deep discussions you were having.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. Yeah. And so I mean, Rick Warren's book, The 40-Day Purpose, what is it?
Gary Schneeberger: The Purpose-Driven Life.
Chris Arnold: The Purpose-Driven Life. Yeah. It was popular back in those days. So I think that's kind of what probably set the context of saying, "Hey, look, I'm just going to take 40 days." And so it was intentional that I wanted to carve out 40 days and just really lean into and take this time, knowing it was a great pivotal time in my life. Again, I had a severance package, so I had some time. I didn't necessarily have to rush and go find the next opportunity. And so it was very intentional that I wanted to take 40 days, but again, at that stage, it's like, "Okay, now what? Okay, I'm going to take 40 days. What's this look like? " So I mean, I would just get up in the morning and pick up my Bible and a notepad and I'd look for a particular verse and start going through and journaling and writing at that point in time on just things that were coming to mind, thoughts that were coming to mind. And actually, this is the season of my life too where I started to pick up journaling and I think it's just a discipline that I highly encourage everyone to do. I've been journaling ever since that time in my life. And as I look back during that season, I tell folks that there were ... The themes that were really coming up is that I would told you that God and family were priorities in my life. However, reality is I wasn't off track, totally, but they weren't the priorities. It was all about my career and career success. And so, and even in the career aspects of things, I was huge on employee engagement, servant leadership, but at a deep level, what God started to convict me of is that a lot of that servant leadership was achieving what Chris was trying to achieve. So motivating teams was more about, okay, Chris and the goals and everything that he was trying to accomplish, I really got that personal conviction. It sounds harsh to say it that harshly, but it was at the end of the day. So reordering things, I mean, stepping away from that and saying, "Okay, I want to really be intentional about reordering things. God, I really want to put you first. I want to put my family next and then beyond that, then I want my career to kind of fall in alignment." So it was during that season as well that I think some of my... I started to work with mission statements, vision statements for my life. I mean, we all do this for business a lot of times, but we sometimes neglect trying to do it for ourselves. And I think a mission statement and a vision statement started to evolve at that point in time. One of the lens that I kind of filter through things even yet today that came is to experience freedom and flexibility to serve God wherever I called without concern for income. So it was just, that's a lens that even today, I mean, it's just what I really filter things through is that experience of being able to experience that freedom and flexibility that I wasn't experiencing because at the time that I was doing all that traveling and everything, I was missing ball games. And that's the thing that I distinctly remember about my dad in self-employment was that, man, he worked hard, we worked hard, we worked a lot of Sundays and nights keeping the place running, but at the end of the day, I never remember my dad missing a ballgame. And that was something that I looked at and said, "Look, yeah, I want to be that too. I don't know what this looks like for me, but I just know that from a value standpoint, I want to get some things realigned and make sure that my priorities are in order."
Gary Schneeberger: So we ask our guests all the time, folks, you may not know this, we ask our guests to fill out a forum so we can ask intelligent questions when we're doing the interviews. And one of the things that you said, Chris, to the question about the best advice you could offer people was the most critical action is to slow down and listen. And you just described that a little bit, and we talk a lot at Beyond the Crucible about self-reflecting. In fact, we have what we call the actionable truths of Beyond the Crucible, and that's one of the top ones is self-reflection. And you sort of walked through that a little bit. After a setback, let me ask you this, right? The most critical action is to slow down and listen, but that can come. Yes, you were reading your Bible, you were communing with God, but even people who perhaps don't have the same faith that you have, it can come in the form of self-reflection, right? Because you talked a little bit about self-reflection. What we tell ourselves truthfully about ourselves is an important part of how we bounce back from a crucible. Talk about that a little bit.
Chris Arnold: Yeah, that's a great observation and slowing down and taking time. My wife and I were actually just talking about this a couple weeks ago, that during that season, I could have gone off and gotten another job. I could have started looking for the next corporate opportunity, but it was the fact that I took time and intentionally slowed down and said, "Okay, I'm not. " And even to that point, career coaching wise, I actually encourage folks to identify what the runway is. And often that runaway is longer than what they tell you, if they really stop and think about it. And then I said, "Break it out in thirds." And I said, "For that first third, don't take anything. Just stop, slow down, listen, and open up to the world of possibilities." And really, and to your point, Gary, I mean, a lot of it is self-reflection too. I mean, it's getting into, how am I wired? How am I created? What are my gifts? What are my talents? And coaching, I think you guys are both familiar with coaching process. And the first step of that is a lot of times is just getting people conscious of who they are. And so that was the season. And in the season that I think that really when you get into the 40 days, that was a lot of it was just the self-reflection, getting conscious of who am I, what are my gifts, what are my talents, how am I created? And then it was like, okay, now how do you go from that, take that next step? Where do we go from here? And that's where the journey really began. I mean, yeah, that was just the beginning for me. And then the journey started to unfold from that point.
Warwick Fairfax: One of the things that happened then, which was frankly painful to read, there was one time when, I guess you've got two kids like Chris Jr. And Kylie, right? And then your daughter, Kylie, something happened that day at school. And so you were asking about it and you asked some question and your response was that Kylie said, "Why do you care? You haven't been home the past five years." That has got to be every parent and as a dad, every dad's almost like worst nightmare talk about, and you write, you say it's a punch to the gut as it would be. There's self-reflection and then there's... I mean, that must have... You were thinking about this anyway, but that must have really said, "Okay, I got to do things differently because I don't want to hear Kylie or Chris say that to me again." I mean, that's obvious, but talk a bit about that because that had to have been painful. But amongst the pain, there was also value. It gave you opportunities, "Okay, I'm going to do things differently."
Chris Arnold: Yeah. As you were just reading that, it brings back the experience and almost tearing up a little bit, just thinking about the moment that that all transpired. And again, that's truly how she felt in that time and then in that moment in that season, and it was humbling to really reflect back on that and say, "Wow, as a mirror, back to me, something that I already knew, but to hear that directly from her child." Matter of fact, before I put things in the book, I've made sure that I've reviewed them with the kids and said, "Hey, this is a circumstance that I put in the book." And we just talked about it this past year again. And so it brought back some memories of that season and what's not in the book also that we cherish as a family is that she was approaching middle school at that time, but middle school started to be difficult years for her. And then into high school, she really had a lot of mental health challenges and ultimately transparently at age 15 was suicidal and just some very difficult moments at that. And so as a father, a couple things for that. One was I was blessed to be home to deal with that. So we look back on that season because I chose the career option that I did with coaching and the freedom of flexibility to be home more, I was there to support the family at that seasonal life. And I was the one that was taking her to counseling sessions and various things, which was a tremendous time of our looking back from that aspect of our life. But yeah, I mean, as a father too though, don't you even bet or have to doubt that I wasn't wrestling with, okay, all these years I was away from home, is that the reason we are where we are today? Because of not being there as a father, was I the absent father that led to a lot of the mental health challenges that she was suffering from? So yeah, there was some seasons there that, again, go back to self-reflection. I really had to start wrestling during those seasons as well about me as a father. Now, we've coming out on the other side of that and sure, there's things, but again, I wasn't the cause for all that now that we're on the other side of it.
Warwick Fairfax: So I want to talk a bit about calling and vocation. You've got so many good things in your book. I love this quote by Frederick, is it Buechner, Buechner? I'm not sure I pronounced that.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. Buechner, I think is probably it.
Warwick Fairfax: Warwick Fairfax: Buechner. Okay. Your calling is where your deepest passions meet the world's greatest needs. I mean, I think I've come across that, but I love that. And you were really trying to find out your calling. I love the questions you have in here that somebody posed to you about helping to figure out calling. What do you think about most often? What do you worry about? What do you complain about? Where do you run for comfort? Where does the majority of your money go? What affirmation do you crave? What makes you happy? How do you describe yourself to others? And I think somewhere in here, you talk about your gifts of being administration and wisdom. And yeah, so talk about, because that must have been huge because a lot of people run around in life not knowing how they're wired. I think you came across halftime at one point that also has a lot of hugely valuable material. So talk about how did that help you navigate your life as you started off in coaching and consulting, just really understanding from your perspective how God wired you. That must have been huge because a lot of people, they just run off, get a job and they're not thinking about, "Gee, what's my gifting and wiring?" Just off they go. What am I passionate about? It's like, "I'm passionate about being able to pay my mortgage and rent. That's what I'm thinking about and that's it." So just talk about what that meant for you and why it's so important for people.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. You mentioned Bob Buford in halftime and it was during that 40 day season or shortly following that I ran across that book. And again, the theme through that is from success to significance. Actually, I had somebody at halftime just after my book launched, mentioned to me, said, "Hey, I think your book title is actually Buford's original title, From Success to Surrender but they told him that it would never sell because of the word surrender." And I went back to Bob's passed away, so nobody knows, but they believe that that is... I went back to halftime and they said they do believe that is true. But also what they talk about in that is that in order to go to significance, they do talk through people around this whole process of what surrender look like. So the light bulb coming on of ... And starting to ask the question around significance, what's significance? And just really starting to... I mean, I was never in the first half of my life trying to look through the lens of what's significance. And so it was during the season I was like, "Okay, significance. What does that look like?" And then even things like, "Hey, were we created on purpose for a purpose?" Again, never wrestled with any of those kind of things before. So starting to try to process through, "Hey, are we created on purpose for a purpose?" And if so, if we're called to do something, then how specific is that calling? So that's always the paradox that I think that over the last now, probably 15 years, I've wrestled with, watched other people wrestle with is like, okay, they really wrestle with, okay, in my worldview, if God has a specific calling, then how specific is that calling? So yeah, I've spent a lot of time trying to work through that. I think that the light bulb that's come on for me though is that, yeah, I believe that all of us are created for a specific purpose. And ultimately, we're wired with gifts and like you've mentioned, I mean, administration, wisdom, faith is the other one as well that's a spiritual gift of mine. And then just the leadership abilities, all those gifts, those are the ways that I'm wired. And then how do you walk that out? Is there a specific way or a purpose? And what I also did and fell into the trap of a lot of time, which I see happens a lot of times, is I started to tie it to a vocation. Now where I'm at today, so my purpose simply stated is to come alongside leaders and help them discover their purpose and intentionally fulfill that purpose. That's what I'm created to do in short. And so looking through that lens, what I discovered is like, yeah, I do that as a coach, but I also, we'll get to probably here in a few minutes. I was president and CEO of a company for seven years during this journey as well, and I was still fulfilling that purpose through... And it also goes back to what I told you earlier about having a vision statement, experiencing freedom, flexibility to serve God wherever called without concerned income. Again, when you go into evaluating president and CEO roles, those were lenses that I kind of filtered that through. So yeah, this whole aspect around purpose and helping people discover what that is for them and their lives is something I'm passionate about. My sense is it's something you're passionate about as well.
Warwick Fairfax: Oh, absolutely. But it's interesting, your journey back was not necessarily a linear, smooth one. It might not have been the same level of crucible, but there were challenges. I mean, life is not easy. It reminds me one of my favorite quotes from a former prime minister of Australia back in '75 during the election, Malcolm Frazee was a conservative. And in a moment of madness and honesty, he said life wasn't meant to be easy. How many politicians have you ever heard say that? I mean, it's just like, it's true, but it's not really a good political sales line, but anyway, but it's true. So one of the things that people of faith and beyond wrestle with is most people these days, it may not be religious necessarily, but they're spiritual, they want to make a difference. And so sometimes for believers, there can be a sense, "Well, if I really want to be fully on board for the kingdom and for God and Jesus, gosh, I need to be in some overtly Christian ministry.
And there was a bit of wrestling with that. And then a number of people said, "No, God needs people in the marketplace who are believers." It's not so much from my perspective saying Jesus lives every day, but more in how you treat people with integrity and honesty and care for them and love them. And as I look at it. But you wrestled with that a bit. And as we'll get into, you even had a couple times when you almost became executive pastor of two different churches, one in Kentucky, one in Indianapolis. So it's not like you... So talk about that whole, because that seemed like a throughline too is it okay for me to do my consulting coaching and then see over business? And because it's easy sometimes in church, you see people in missionaries overseas and it's like, I guess that's the A team, right? I guess I must not be the A team, which is completely biblically wrong, but it's tempting to fall into that. Or I'm not leading some nonprofit to help bring clean water to a Third World country. I'm just making money. Even if you're not a person of faith, it's easy to believe I'm a sellout because I'm not really helping people. Heaven forbid, I'm a corporate lawyer investment banker. How's that redemptive? I'm not saying that's true, but it's easy to think that. So talk a bit about what that meant for you and what that means more generally, this wrestling with your power.
Chris Arnold: Well, you're right. It's a big part of the story. And for me, there's a marketplace ministry that's headquartered here in Indianapolis, Indiana. So in 2009, I had some people encouraging me to step in and join it and sit in it as it's personal advisory boards for Christian business owners. And so I chose to go ahead and sit in an advisory board. And over the... I distinctly remember one advisory board in February of 2011 where I walked into the room and I said, "We rate our issues on a scale of one to 10, 10 being absolutely critical and needed to get on the table." And so I said, "I guess I better say I got to attend today." And the facilitator says, "What is it?" I said, "Well, I got a $12,000 tax bill and I'm really not sure I'm going to pay. However, that's not the issue." The issue is, am I doing what God's calling me to be doing in life?
It's because it's like there's just things we're not clicking. Again, using the financial barometer, I wasn't, again, still trying to live the six figure lifestyle, hadn't backed out. We didn't really downsize a whole lot in our lifestyle. And then in 2012, that marketplace ministry began to expand nationally. And so they needed someone to step in the Indianapolis area and start facilitating groups in the Indianapolis area to allow the leadership team to really focus on growing the organization. And so in 2012, I joined as a chapter president was the title that they use and started facilitating groups. And in 2012, that whole year, I mean, I would talk to people and two out of three people I would talk to would join. And so I was like, "Man, this is it." I built four groups and I distinctly remember sitting with the CEO of this organization in January of 13, kind of looking back on 12 and saying, "Hey, you're only a few people away from ultimately being a place where you've got financial sustainability and so on."
And then lo and behold, in 2013, I talked to a hundred people and two people joined. And I'm like, "What in the world is happening?" So really wrestling again, thinking that, okay, I have marketplace ministry, facilitating this group. So I was doing what God was calling me to do and thinking now I'm in this season of reevaluating, okay. And then even getting to the place where just through some unique circumstances, I take a spiritual retreat day generally every first Friday of the month. And through these circumstances, having a spiritual retreat, I'd gone to Kenya in September, had a good experience there and just came back from that and October was really wrestling, trying to understand and just through some unique circumstances, felt that God was really convicting me, "Don't turn my father's house into a marketplace."
And so it was, again, coming back to money, really convicting me at a heart level, and that's one of the biggest things that as you read the book that I really had to turn loose of, and still today is continually my thorn to my flesh probably of just financial security and turning loose of the financial security in life and leaning in on the promises that provision will be there. So yeah, that ended up... At that season, I wrestled, ultimately ended up wrestling so much that I went to the organization and said, "Hey, look, these groups that I'm actually getting paid a substantial money, amount of money to facilitate, I'm going to have to back down on them because I'm so convicted over this and give them up." I kept one group that was kind of a nonprofit group that I've still facilitated to this day, but I needed to transition at that point in time. And that's 2015 timeframe, and then that's where it picks up with you alluded to, "Well, maybe I'm being called to be an executive pastor." So I started interviewing at that point.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. Just one of the things you talk about in the book is wrestling with financial security and money as an idol, you call it, which I'm not familiar with. We all have idols where we can put our significance in things that are not eternal or not necessarily in line with our beliefs and values. So that's something you wrestled with, which we all have them. And so that really was a bold step of faith to do what you did. But just before you got into, I think it's uplift that non... Uplift [inaudible 00:36:38].
Chris Arnold: Uplift Good Food On Purpose.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. If there was a plan for you to be in ministry, it sure seemed like there were two big signs that not in a traditional sense. If you believe God speaks through circumstances, and they were not easy. The one in Kentucky and the one in Indianapolis, I think your son at one point said, "Hey, basically don't get your hopes up too much." And maybe he had a prophetic word. I don't know.
Chris Arnold: Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax: So there you go.
Chris Arnold: Yeah, that's definitely a memorable moment as well. Yeah. The one in Kentucky, I mean, we really felt that the handwriting was all over the wall that we were going. And to your point, we were sitting at dinner one evening and Christopher says, "Hey, you guys got to stop your dreams up about Kentucky." And I'm like, "Son, we never know what God has in the store, but man, the handwriting is pretty clear on this one." And he's like, "Well, okay, but you might need to eat some humble pie." And we generally don't have our phones at the table, but it was sitting behind me and I heard the phone buzz and I just grabbed it and picked it up. And lo and behold, it was the email in the inbox from the senior pastor saying, "Hey, we're choosing to go in another direction." So boy, if you don't think that that was a humility, tested humility, that was-
Warwick Fairfax: It feels like in both cases, I guess you probably don't know, but you were down to the last two or three. You weren't like one of 50.
Chris Arnold: I was second runner up on both occasions. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax: So what did you make of that, saying, "God, what's the deal here? Why get me so close and then shut the door on my face?" So I'm sure you've had those conversations. Did you get any sense of what all that meant and why you got so close, but then the answer's no?
Chris Arnold: I think it's just part of the whole journey of stripping a lot of things away and faith and trust and then again, stripping my finances away too. I mean, at the end of the day, we went negative net worth. We went from a substantial network to negative net worth during this season. So we were at this... As I was interviewing for the second one in late 2015, early 2016, we were going negative at that point in time. And again, wrestling with the fact that shouldn't I be earning a living and trying, not that I wasn't trying to do some other things to earn a living, it just wasn't happening for me. So yeah, I think just coming to the end of myself, sometimes we use the depth of self experience and that was like the final nail in the coffin for me, I think, is like that whole season of interviewing for about a year period of time and not being able to even land myself in a church. It's like, "Are you kidding me? I can't even go serve at a church."
Warwick Fairfax: So that wasn't to be. And then in 2016, you became CEO, excuse me, of Uplift. So because you were there for seven years, so that sounds like that was really fulfilling. You felt like you were doing good for this company, providing sustainable, healthy produce. That must have been a pretty cool season. You're using your gift of administration and faith. You must have felt like, "This is it, Lord, I'm here for the next 20 years. Let's go."
Chris Arnold: Yeah, the quarterback was back on the field, man. It's one thing to be a coach. It's another one to get the quarterback back on the field. So yeah, I mean, through some circumstances, I had a couple friends that had approached me really just to, as sometimes happens in the coaching consulting world is step in, help them out. And that's how it was initially is, "Hey, can you step in?" And indoor farming, growing lettuce indoors was under lights was ultimately the business venture that was an emerging technology all over the world, candidly, back in that season and the US was really starting to take root back in the season of life and stepped into that and as you often do as a coach consultant for six months, kind of determined, "Hey, the current business model was not going to be successful." Ended up deciding to go ahead and let the original founder go at that season, but we're sitting there with significant investment funding and went to the board and said, "Hey guys, you can get out now, cut your losses, or we can go... There's a lot of excitement in this area. We can go look and see and try to find somebody to partner up with and that can provide a turnkey farm solution and we can go have a good run at this." And so they chose the latter. So US-wise, we did due diligence on some folks in the US, just couldn't find the right partner with the right technology emerging at that time. And so came across a company out of the Netherlands, Plantlab was the name of them and really struck up a great relationship with them and came to a place of deciding that we wanted to partner with them in a 50-50 joint venture on bringing their technology to the US. So yeah, to your point, yes, in the zone at this season of things, things were... It's like this business is never completely easy, but ultimately waking up every morning, energized, thinking, "Man, we're finally there, man." From a Christian's perspective, "Hey, you molded my heart, you got my heart, my values in the right place, and ultimately let's go do this together." And so to that point, I mean, yeah, Uplift, the brand that we launched was Uplift, Uplift Good Food On Purpose. It was somewhat of a social impact. There was a community, a nonprofit that I was one of our investors in combination with several for profit folks, and really had a plan to get back to the community, create jobs in that community, and then healthy produce. And then that ended up moving forward to a potential partnership with a large food distributor, Cisco, throughout the worldwide food distributor, and had intent to build multiple farms starting out in the US and major metropolitan areas in the US, and started to go through the construction estimates on a farm, and this is kind of fast forwarding into, we're all way into 2022 now, that we were fast forwarding into basically, and came off of that in Pompano Beach, Florida was going to be the first joint venture farm there, highly automated, show-place, good place to fly people into, and show the place off. And just once we got all the estimates in, it didn't pencil out on paper. So we had to make the tough decision to pull out of the North American market, and unfortunately since that time, this past year, pull out of the worldwide as well, the company shut down worldwide. But yeah, great run from a culture standpoint, probably, I mean, other people listening to this might debate this, but I think we were known as having probably the best operation here in Indianapolis, Indiana. And the reason I attribute that is a lot around the culture that we were able to build. It was very much employee engagement. I'm a huge Patrick Lencioni fan of five dysfunctions as a team, so trust, conflict, those kind of the five aspects of that. And then brought in some great young leadership, also brought in folks that were second chance employment as well. I mean, people that had historical backgrounds and were just thankful to have a job and have a great family to come into and work with on a day-to-day basis.
Warwick Fairfax: So you mentioned in 2023 when that company decided to pull out of the North American market, talk about what that was you were going through because that's another season of reflection. You've had a number of seasons of reflection, and this is another opportunity. It's like, "Lord, can I just be done with these seasons of reflection, at least not this kind? I think I got the message." He said, "Well, Chris, I've got a few more lessons." "Oh, come on. Enough of the lessons. I'm ready to graduate." But such as life is really that way. So that must have been tough because it's like, well, now what? I was in the zone, as you said, the quarterbacks on the field, that must not have been easy when that ended. All the business reasons made sense of why potentially, but still, what were you thinking then when that ended? Because it must not have been easy.
Chris Arnold: You captured it. It was like, "Okay, now what? Why again? Are we going here again?" I've been here before. So to your point though, I mean, yeah, I think as that happened, I mean, you always go back into reflection mode. It was like, "Okay, what am I supposed to be learning from all this? What are you teaching me from all this?" And I tell people that it was subtle, but it was... And again, this is in my world and in my belief system, but being more connected to the dream than I was connected to my Lord. So I started chasing after the dream and all the things we were great things we were doing together and kind of subtle, but left that relationship, one-on-one relationship I had with my heavenly father, not totally in behind, but it just wasn't like it once was and now is.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. Just for listeners, whether you're people of faith like Chris is, the broader issue is you can have a set of beliefs, but we talk about this a lot, mission drift, and you can subtly drift so that the dream, the mission becomes an idol. There's nothing wrong with having healthy, nutritious produce. Nothing wrong with that. That's a good vision, but the key is make sure that that doesn't become an idol. "Hey, look at me, I'm Chris Arnold and I'm doing these wonderful things and you should respect me." And that probably is not a verb on the top of your mind, but there might have been a few grains in there. And anybody, that can happen to any of us, whether irrespective of what your belief system... We talk about idols a lot. You never want to have money or what you do as an idol. So I want to talk a bit about what you do now, because you say that this whole thing has clarified your calling to use your gift of wisdom, to lead people in the intentional discovery and fulfillment of their God given purpose. And I love what you talk about is the truths that you say echo through the book. And these are profound. Success isn't measured by what we achieve, but by what we become, God's timing is perfect even when it doesn't match our schedule. Our greatest growth often comes through our deeper struggles. True freedom is found in surrender, not control. Every closed door can hide unexpected blessings. Ministry happens wherever God places it. So talk about what you do now and maybe some of the key two or three things that God has taught you in this journey.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, what I do now is coming alongside leaders and their families is another thing. My wife, Lisa and I, she's joined me in this effort. We just did a sideline on her part of the story. We started doing premarital counseling back in 2019. Some girls approached her and said, "Hey, will you do premarital counseling?" So we evolved into that world. And then since that time, I have partnered up with our church and we do premarital and then I'm also ordained to do weddings. So marriage and family is an element that we brought to it. And then my daughter-in-law also has come along beside us as well with my son and their health journeys and she's a health coach too. So we're really looking to come alongside leaders and their families, help them go through this process of alignment and start to ask the questions and recognizing like we've talked that you don't figure this all out in 40 days. I mean, there is a journey that you need to go through. And then that's also part of why the book actually... The book was actually written in 2018. It wasn't until this past year that I actually published it. Just a quick sideline on that, one of the things that I was really wrestling to get to finish the book. And the reason being is that I wanted to get to the top of the mountain and look back and be able to tell that uplift story and be able to talk about, "Hey, here was the journey. Yeah, I went through the valley and ultimately, but man, whenever the 23 event transpired and that ended up really..." And if you're reading the epilogue of the book, I mean, I talk about, hey, God really convicted me that, hey son, it's not about the particular destination. It's about the journey. And so that was really what sparked the idea of... I'd always wanted to tell my story because I felt like people could learn from that journey. And so that's basically what I ended up doing was the book was getting very intentional about finishing the book and getting it published, but also in the effort of publishing the book, making sure that it does more... It's a teaching memoir. So as you know, I mean, ultimately at the end of each chapter, there's questions that are reflection questions. There's also, we've built into this also a whole... I'll share more about our website and information later on, but if you come to our information, you'll see that there's a 40-day journey that we, because the 40-day journey was so important to me, so we put together a devotional series and a study companion guide that kind of goes with all this stuff. And again, it's really packaging up a lot of the things that I learned in my journey such that in this coaching relationship, it's the foundation and a lot of times at the starting point for someone to come in and start to work alongside and wrestle through some of this stuff.
Warwick Fairfax: As we close here, you've got some profound thoughts that you're talking about on the epilogue, and this is really worthy of people reflecting on. The season has crystallized the core message of the book, true transformation happens in the walking, not the arriving. We can get so focused about getting to the top of the mountain, which you did even back in the uplift days. I want to write the book when I'm at the top of the mountain. I'm sure now you'd say that was probably a wrong promise, because it's not about the top of the mountain, which obviously you've learned and I've certainly tried to learn. Each closed door, each desert season, each moment of surrender shaped us more than any achievement could. Just the beauty and the power of surrender. You talk about these three truths, every step of surrender shapes us more into his image. In other words, God's image. Our greatest ministry often flows from our deepest struggles. I've got a whole podcast about, talks about my failures. It's pretty much, I mean, other people's challenges, but for me, my failures, I've learned a lot through that. When we walk with God, we're always exactly where we need to be. And I love this thing, and I don't know if you have it there on your desk, but there's like a little... I don't know what you call it, if it's a sailboat or something. Ship.
Chris Arnold: Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax: So on it says, "The man who walks with God always gets to his destination. Just the power of God, whoever you feel is up there, your core beliefs and values, it's walking with those rather than focus on the destination." Do you have that there just to show people-
Chris Arnold: It's across the room. I can go grab it if you'd like me to.
Warwick Fairfax: Why not? Why not? Because it's a pretty powerful thing. Might want to grab it.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. It's across the room where I can look at it, but...
Warwick Fairfax: There we go. And on that, on that boat, again, the man who walks with God always gets to his destination. So folks, what we're saying here is it's about the journey, not the destination. Don't get so focused on, gosh, when I get to the CEO or get a million dollars or five million or whatever, then I'll be happy. No, I don't care what your beliefs and values are. Success in of itself doesn't make you happy. It's the journey. And that's really, I think, maybe what you're talking about, surrender, right? It's like it's enjoy the journey, surrender the outcome. Is that like a fair summary as we close?
Chris Arnold: I couldn't have said it any better.
Gary Schneeberger: That sounds you heard folks was the captain turning on the fast and seatbelt sign, indicating that our plane is descending to land this episode of Beyond the Crucible. Until we do that though, so put your peanut bags away, but we're not quite there yet. I'd be remiss, Chris, if I didn't ask you how our listeners and viewers can reach you on the internet, learn more about your coaching and anything else that you may have that they can explore.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. So there's multiple ways. Probably the easiest way is to go to our book website, which is fromsuccesstosurrender.com. And then well through that, you can navigate to a couple other different sites. I've got chrisarnold.org and then the lastinglegacycollective.com. And then I'm very active on LinkedIn as well. I think that's probably how we got connected.
Gary Schneeberger: Warwick, as always, the last question or questions of the guest are yours.
Warwick Fairfax: So Chris, there might be somebody listening today, maybe today's their worst day, maybe they've been fired from that job that was either in the C-suite or was going to lead to the C-suite. Maybe they were like your son who had a dream of being a high school quarterback and maybe college quarterback and to have injuries that basically the doctor says, "You got to give it up." Maybe you're either the C-suite executive that got fired or the high school kid that could have been the quarterback like his dad. So what would a word of hope be to somebody that's in that position which they feel like my dreams have just turned to ashes and what now?
Chris Arnold: Well, first of all, it's acknowledging that it's not easy. I mean, it is a painful experience as much as it's looking back, telling the story and even talking about the fact that freedom walking into the door, it's easy to sit here and say that, but yet, yes, there still was a lot of pains and suffering through that. So experiencing that, yet recognizing it's not the end of the world. And that too, the story that hopefully you've heard today is that I've been joying life and it was a transitional, very pivotal point in my life that freed me up to do some great things on going out and serving people in a completely different perspective, which hopefully you can tell that I'm going with great joy on a day-to-day basis.
Gary Schneeberger: Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word's been spoken on a subject and our guest, Chris Arnold, just spoke it. Warwick, we just finished our discussion with our guest, Chris Arnold. And as we always do when we have guests on the show, I ask you, what's the big takeaway from Chris's crucible story and his bounce back story and his life of significant story? What's the big learning that we walk away with from our interview with Chris today?
Warwick Fairfax: Chris Arnold is a fascinating guy. He went through the crucible of being on track to doing exceptionally well at a company in Indianapolis. He was making quite a lot of money and with the prospect of making more and was going to very successful, worked hard. And on the surface, it seemed like he was living his values, he's a person of faith, but yet in practice, he was away most of the week. He missed a lot of his son and daughter's games and activities they were involved in. And so in a sense, it's a very sobering lesson. Whether you're a person of faith and his faith in Christ is of course who he is, whether you're a person of that faith, some other religious faith, or just him or broadly, just other spiritual paradigms, it's very easy to drift from your beliefs and values and your mission. And it's very easy to have money or success as an idol. Nothing wrong with success, but when your whole sense of self gets defined in what you do, how much you make, that is never good. And so when he got fired and let go, he had enough self-awareness to realize there was a problem. He wouldn't have left voluntarily because how do you give up that kind of career income and prospects, but he felt freedom, but yet it wasn't an easy journey back. There were a number of things, like you thought, "Gosh, I'm a person of faith, maybe I should be an executive pastor." Twice, it got down to two people and he was not the person that was picked. That's devastating is what's up with that. Then his CEO for, I don't know, six, seven years of a company called Uplift that is about producing healthy food, and that ended up ending. It's been a journey coming alongside people, coaching them, consulting with them, mentoring folks, including families. And his profound wisdom is, he says, "True transformation that happens in the walking, not the arriving." It's not about getting to the top of the mountain. Life is never about Oh, when I get to the top of the mouth and I'll be happy. Life is about being happy in the journey, having a sense of joy through the bad times and the good times. Hard to have joy in the bad times. I fully realize that. We've all been through that. We're just saying life is going to have its ups and downs, but enjoying the journey, the times that feel like that are tough, there can be so much learning and wisdom that both Gary and I have certainly learned in our own lives. And so it is really about the journey, not the destination. This is something I'm sure you might have heard before, but Chris Arnold's life is a testament to don't focus on the destination, focus on the journey and make sure that you live your beliefs and values along the way. Don't be that mom. Don't be that dad who, when your kids grow up, if you have kids say, "Mom, dad, you were never around. I was hurting. I had a big game. You were not there. You were not present. I needed you and you didn't show up." There's always, well, hopefully there's always forgiveness. There's always redemption. But you don't want to be that mom or dad. You don't want to be that sister, that brother, that uncle, that aunt, that friend who was not around. You want to be somebody that lives your beliefs and values and not just have them as a bumper sticker, as the company that a lot of us have heard of, Enron that was very notorious for, went under because they had all sorts of scandals and financial impropriety, but yet their mission was all about caring people and uplifting them. But they weren't living that. You don't want to be CEO of an Enron kind of company when you're not living your beliefs and values. You don't want to be the kind of person that says, "Yes, that person, their beliefs and values sounded good, but they really didn't live it. And their family, their friends, but all say that." You don't want to be that to be your legacy. So Chris has spent years trying to make sure that he lived in light of his beliefs and values. And even when he was trying, after he got fired from that company all those years ago in 2008, it still wasn't easy. And he was trying. It still was tough not to have finances and success as an idol. So it's not only is life a journey, life is a journey trying to live and lie to you with beliefs and values. That isn't easy, but let us at least try. And when we go through challenges, let's see them as gifts that happen for us and not to us. And so, okay, maybe I need to up my game in terms of living my beliefs and vanities. Maybe I'm too focused on the destination, not the journey. So a lot of wisdom that we can learn from Chris Arnold.
Gary Schneeberger: So until the next time we're together, please remember this. We know your crucible experiences are difficult. Chris, despite the fact that... He chuckled quite a bit through talking through his, despite the fact that when he went through his really big crucible, he actually said, "I'm free at the end of it." There were some struggles that went with that. But you heard it here today, the good news about his story, and it can be the good news about your story too. It's not the end of your story, your crucible isn't. In fact, if you learn the lessons from that crucible and you apply those lessons moving forward, the destination it can lead you to is the greatest destination you can ever reach. And that is a life of significance. Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance
